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67921 No. 67921 ID: d25f44

It has finally happened; the old discussion thread has become error. I intended to make a new thread when the current chapter ended, but the whim of code has forced my hand.

Previous thread:
>>8407
>>62615

May its massive postcount light the mightiest pyre.
Expand all images
>>
No. 67923 ID: a31717

I would like to christen the new dis thread by saying J, you're a jerk for throwing an actual problem at us when we're distracted by shiny upgrades. It's like if you were attacked in an rpg while in a menu screen. :V
>>
No. 67924 ID: d25f44

Oh, and if you posted in the old thread recently, maybe try posting again here. The visibility of the last few posts in the old thread is... uncertain.
>>
No. 67925 ID: f2c20c

>>67923
Not just a menu screen. A level up point application screen.
>>
No. 67926 ID: 3dd384

>>67923
To be fair: we were given plenty of warning. We heard once before and once after that Dullahoney's handshake might be carrying some nasty germs, and we never thought to check our Inner World for that. Or even for some manifestation of our oath!

It's a sticky situation, but one that - to a certain extent - we brought upon ourselves.
>>
No. 67928 ID: d25f44

>>67923

Ha ha. Well... is it an actual problem? You're the ones who started causing a ruckus.
>>
No. 67929 ID: 4a328b

>>67928
oh you. just put a tentacle on wordblood too so no one knows that something's up and we can get on with our purchases like nothing happened
>>
No. 67931 ID: 3dd384

>>67928
>insinuating that it really is all in Wordblood's head

>Saulanna feels... did she imagine it?... the brush of something smooth and slick and long, slithering up over her back and around her neck, gone before she can be sure it was there.
>>
No. 67932 ID: a31717

>>67931
He's not necessarily insinuating it's all in Wordblood's head. He could be saying it's only a problem if we chose to make it a problem.
>>
No. 67934 ID: 3dd384

>>67932
We are talking about carpetbaggers in our soul hierarchy, who refuse to identify themselves and seem to be magically influencing the Queen Soul.

That there's a major threat to our/Saulanna's stated short-term goal of "retain independence", in no small part because that first paragraph is basically all we know about it.

The more I think about it, the less problem I have with the Dragon's Shadow in principle - "trickster god who rebels compulsively" is a fair sight better than the Ebon Dragon of the canonical Second Age. Certainly Saulanna herself has a neutral outlook on the guy ever since that chat with Akatrina. But the current situation is simply an enormous risk, with enormous unknowns, and one I feel like we need to resolve to some extent before returning to normal time (even if the resolution is "based on what we've learned there's no danger", or even "this is something we+Wordblood can't resolve right now, let's keep our eyes open and keep brainstorming possible ways to make progress on it").
>>
No. 67936 ID: 5da860

>>67932
But this is clearly a nefarious SPY out to SAP our SENTRIES :V
Seriously though, if Greeneyes is going through such lengths to hide he more likely than not intends on making some problems on his own terms at some later point.
>>
No. 67938 ID: 3dd384

>>/quest/495935
So here's the other thing.

The interloper isn't just watching. It's attached to our soul hierarchy somehow. I mean, presumably. Assuming the green option on the TW menu was from this source and there aren't two mysterious forces in Saulanna's head right now. If it was just hanging around here, why would she know she could buy Charms for it, and why would it feel like she was buying Charms for herself?

Huh. That's actually a good point. Maybe this thing was a spy, but the birth of a proper soul hierarchy at the end of Ch.2 pulled it in, in the same way that it pulled in our Hero Soul.

In that case, it's most important to make it understand that, if it really is one of Saulanna's devas...
1) we're not going to be hostile as long as its loyalties are in the right place, and
2) cloaking yourself from your Queen is gauche.
>>
No. 67942 ID: 5da860

>>67938
On the other hand, there is precedent for titans teaching others their powers. Wordblood says earlier that "[Akatrina's] caste also has the ability, given particular effort, to learn the magical abilities of other beings, including gods and Titanic devas, if she has a tutor. A tutor such as, for example, any of the innumerable offspring of the Dragon's Shadow himself." Greeneyes could be using some similar teaching method while using his mind tricks to hide that it is him doing the teaching.

On the other other hand, anonymously giving us deception power would be strange for a spy to do, unless he has some control over the power that we invest in (which he might if it works like the power we invest in the devas)...
>>
No. 67943 ID: 3dd384

>>67942
It's possible.

But there's also evidence the interloper can perceive our suggestions. Otherwise, how did it know to block us from telling Saulanna/Moonshard/Kairosa about its presence?

It's circumstantial evidence, but from where I'm sitting the circumstantial evidence is starting to pile up. Enough to try to make an overture directly. We'll see how that goes.
>>
No. 67944 ID: 5da860

>>67943
I am not sure if Greeneyes was hearing us as much as it was hearing Saulana's and Kai's reactions to us. Still, it is worth testing and we won't loose anything if we try talking to him and he can't hear us.
>>
No. 67945 ID: f2c20c

>>67942
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it would simply teach Saulanna Emotion Bottling, not that it's part of our Deva hierarchy. I'm SURE that we would notice THAT.

You know, if it is willing to teach Saulanna, that is evidence that it is not a hostile force.

>>67943
Since this interloper has some aspect/purpose that allows manipulation of emotions, it stands to reason that it is able to do some fine-tuned mental manipulation stuff as well. It being in constant contact with us means that it has a very intimate connection.

Oh. Oh dear, I just thought of something bad. If this interloper has a high Soul Force, they could be detected by Luna if we spoke to her. On the other hand, since it's a stealth soul, it might actually be able to hide itself better with more Soul Force?
>>
No. 67947 ID: 9f5b78

It teaching us a power that makes us immune to Will damage but very susceptible to having our emotions manipulated does not mean it isn't a hostile force. If Akatrina knew that she could play us like a fiddle.

Also, this may not apply here, but in normal Exalted advanced Yozi charms often come with the drawback of compelling you to act a certain way in relevant situations. Infernals who delve in the Ebon Dragon charm set for instance may be compelled to corrupt peoples good memories if they ever hear someone talking about them.(Memory Poison Mastery forces someone to use Golden Years Tarnished Black in such a situation or else they gain Limit)

By teaching us one of his charms, if this applies in this version of the setting and to Titans, he opens the door for us eventually become compelled to act like him in at least some fashion.
>>
No. 67948 ID: 47a120

So far the dragon shadow seems more playful then aggressive, he is just watching, he is not mindraping us. He clearly CAN but is chosing to limit himself to only messing with our ability to perceive him and even then doing it in a way that we can detect.

I don't think this is really all that big of a problem and that we shouldn't be all that aggressive towards him.
>>
No. 67952 ID: 1c7e1b

Alright, this may be too much meta-knowledge from Exalted but... When the "Titans" were killed, during their dying breath they created the Great Curse on the "Heroes" so that their heroic virtues would become corrupted, and they would create their own undoing.
Of course, I don't see how that makes sense with the Dragon's Shadow being here... Though being wrapped up around the Hero soul and everything could mean Jukashi has changed the nature of the Curse.
>>
No. 67956 ID: 3bad4c

Wordblood says: "Your endless stream of words only makes me stronger" so lets just jabber on and on and on and on and on until he gets an unexpected soul force increase. :D
>>
No. 67963 ID: cee89f

>>67952
Kairosa did mention the curse...
>>
No. 67965 ID: 370c40

Oh god like half the old discussion thread is gone
>>
No. 67966 ID: c4e057

>>67965
Yeah just splitting it up. It's been, uh, causing trouble and I didn't get around to rearchitecting the thread-templating code to properly fix it. Even from the grave it still needs to fit into memory. So split into manageable chunks instead!
>>
No. 67971 ID: a31717

>>67966
Now we have a discussion thread 1.5?

Godsdangit, that's annoying. The wiki-infobox doesn't support renaming dis threads links.

Hmm. There's also a cap of 5 disthreads before you break the infobox. Give Lunar quest is now going at a rate of 1 to 1 quest thread to disthread, it's probably the most likely quest to eventually break that. :V
>>
No. 67972 ID: 47a120

>>67971
Increasing the limit on disthreads beyond five looks to be trivial by editing http://tgchan.org/wiki/Template:Infobox
(haven't messed with it yet since it can break entire wiki on minor error)
Allowing disthreads to be named is a little more complex but also doable.
>>
No. 67973 ID: cee89f

>>67972
I find it hilarious we're worried over the minutia of discussion threads but Kairosa doesn't even have a character entry xD Heck, i don't think it has been updated since the end of chapter 1...
>>
No. 67974 ID: a12965

>>67963
She implied it, sorta. We know it's the curse because of metaknowledge, but as far as they know it's just the feeling of the titans anger and nothing more. I don't think DS being here is related to it, in any case.

>>67948
Not mindrape, but blanking out our perception isn't cool at all. On the other hand, if this presence could serve as our stealth soul that could actually be very useful. Assuming its actually a piece of DS and not a continuous part of him, we should seek to have it show itself to us and swear fealty. Or whatever.
>>
No. 67976 ID: cee89f

>>67974
> and the last breath that they used to, to...!"
>"To... damn it! Curse them! Curse them all, idiotic ungrateful little...
>and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build, again, and then again, and it can keep happening all the way down for ever and ever AND EVE-!!"

That's a bit more than 'implied' =p

Admittedly we don't know what exactly the curse is, but that one was laid down? oh yes.
>>
No. 67978 ID: a31717

>>67972
Yeah, the "break the whole wiki accidentally" is why I haven't messed with it yet. Getting it to properly display discussion 1, 1.5, 2 instead of 1, 2, 3 isn't worth the bother, yet.

>>67973
Updating descriptions is more bothersome than linking to threads, or uploading stats. Partially because you usually end up having to revise someone else's work, and partially because you have to, yanno, write something. :V

As a result, the descriptions and summaries are usually the most out of date parts of an article. (Well, except for the ones so old they predate infoboxes. Or where the "running quests" tag has been left on years after the quest died).
>>
No. 67979 ID: ce346f
File 136181706828.jpg - (56.20KB , 400x300 , RGB_illumination.jpg )
67979

I honestly think that it is the Great Curse, not the Dragon's Shadow. Queen would have gotten it from Hero, and Time would have gotten it from Queen and maybe Hero. It makes sense that only Aide is partway free of it.

Also, green tentacles, and that bottling upgrade, seem more like the no-tattoo bad end great curse thing that most Lunars are prone to.

Thirdly, we started off with Red Aide, and a Blue Hero, which have together produced a Magenta Time. It would fit the color theme if we also started with a third, Green thing. Conflicts with my first argument a little.

As for seeing it, I'd suggest that this is related to Aide's recent upgrades. Further upgrades to Aide may improve the matter. If nothing else, Aide will be in a better position to catch the effects by tracking our internal social stuff.
>>
No. 67980 ID: c6ca67

...Wait... It's not 'definite' that it's the dragon, but...I wonder if there's another source?
WordBlood is immune to this/not targeted. This might be because it's not the dragon, or perhaps, not as directly.
This could be the Curse Kairosa found earlier, and it's either using the hero soul to adapt itself to being able to mess with memories so as to remain undetected, or using a built-in function.
How long were the heros cursed? Since the fall of the titans, which means pretty much nearly through all their history. Isn't it weird that NO-ONE has done anything about this? All those heros, and NONE of them can mess with the hero soul enough to fix this?
Obviously, as a Titan, we should be resistant...But this is where things get more complex.
WordBlood is 100% Titan, or close to it. So the curse won't effect him, or if it does, it will be by association. As a result, he can see the green stuff, and it probably isn't clinging to him.
Now, I vote we let this sit. If it's Dragon, we'll probably upset the Lunars and things will go south from there. But if it is the Curse, then we probably should let this sleeping coon lie.
If being a Titan's going to make us look weird, I wonder what being an uncursed hero will do...I figure it will open Wyld powers, and possibly offer mental benefits, but if we do it, I think it's going to be like the first time WordBlood ate someone, and the results will be interesting to see. (Note: try to make sure Peregrin can witness the change.)
>>
No. 67981 ID: 370c40

There is no good reason the Curse would exclusively take the form of the Dragon's Shadow. There are what, at least a dozen other Yozi? Maybe a bunch more I dunno I never counted the number of canon Yozi. Why would it take the shape of the Dragon's Shadow and not any of the others trapped in Malfeas, or Oramus(because Oramus is trapped in himself not Malfeas)? It's pretty clearly the Dragon's Shadow or something the Dragon's Shadow did. Although the Curse could be making it worse.
>>
No. 67990 ID: 9f5b78

There's absolutely nothing that's happening that makes sense for it to be the Great Curse. Sure, Jukashi could've changed things, but when the things happening fit with the Dragon's Shadow and have no connection with what the Great Curse or Wyld Taint(Which are separate things) do? You're grasping at straws.

>>67979
No tatoo bad end has nothing to do with the Great Curse. Great Curse plays on a Hero's virtues, whether by taking them to extremes or by subverting what they represent. May make a Hero lose control in a bad way for a bit, but not linked to bad ends in Exalted. Chimera-ism is basically Lunar Shapeshifting, Primal Instinct, the Wyld, and Madness taking over and turning a Lunar into a monster.

>>67980
In cannon Exalted, because the Great Curse only took affect after the Primordial War, people tended to assume the insanity was because of the horrors of said war. After that, prominent theory was that humans just couldn't take being so damn perfect. Doesn't help that almost nothing in Exalted is capable of actually mucking with Exaltations and that they're pretty much indestructible so the Death Cries of Primordials damaging the things wasn't exactly something anyone would just come up with. One guy who had any idea about it, Lytek God of Exltations, didn't ever tell anyone either.

Again, Jukashi could've changed this stuff, but I don't think we've a single reason to think that. We haven't even seen enough of the Great Curse to, without Meta knowledge, know that it's anything other then angry feelings because of tasting the history of the Titan War.
>>
No. 67991 ID: a12965

>>67945
>You know, if it is willing to teach Saulanna, that is evidence that it is not a hostile force.
Not hostile but certainly there is a strong risk of corrupting us. At least in terms of our undermining our desired freedom. If it is here hidden as we continue to grow it will profoundly change every deva and Saulanna herself.

>>67976
Sure sure but it isn't definite, at least without them giving her precise wording as much contemplation as we have.
>>
No. 67994 ID: 5b3e4b

>>/quest/496045
True, but that could apply to any spells that the thing may be casting if it needs to continuously channel it or something.
>>
No. 67995 ID: 4a328b

What makes me think "Dragon's Shadow" or at least "titanic influence" is the fact that the eyes had little red triangles in them--y'know, the titan symbol.
>>
No. 67997 ID: 5b3e4b

>>67995
Also (correct me if i'm wrong) but the Yozis are associated with green like Sol is associated with yellow/gold and Abyssals with black, right?
>>
No. 67998 ID: beeca1

>>67997
The Yozi are the Titans themselves. Only Malfeas and his fetich soul Ligier the Green Sun are really associated with green. The others, not so much. Their Heroes are, but the Titans themselves vary.
>>
No. 67999 ID: 4a328b

>>67998
The Dragon's Shadow is the opposite of the Red Sun, right? The opposite of red is green! MYSTERY SOLVED.
>>
No. 68002 ID: d1efde

HEY! Quick question for the people here. How likely do you think it is that the interloper could be using our TW allocation suggestions (as VOICES OF THE PAST) as a means to help it derail Wordbloods attempt to tell Saulanna it is there?
>>
No. 68004 ID: beeca1

>>67999
...No. The Red Sun is the Dragon's Shadow's wife, the former Red Empress.

He's the Yellow Sun's opposite. So purple, if anything.
>>
No. 68005 ID: c6ca67

Who knows? Frankly, something else to look out for is if we end up getting eaten by Kairosa, for all we know about our form in this particular quest!
For that matter, this green stuff could be the Wyld!
GAAAHARGH!
Ok, I'm really starting to think opening up to Luna or someone else and letting them take care of us is the way to go-Creation's just too full of powerful players for us to compete as a stand alone power!
>>
No. 68007 ID: d1efde

>>68005
>For that matter, this green stuff could be the Wyld

Now that's an interesting idea. Could there actually be two problems right now? It doesn't really explain the eyes in the dark, but it might explain why Wordblood is unaffected by that influence. Both Kairose and Saulanna have a much closer association with the Hero Soul than Wordblood, Kairosa because it influenced her birth and Saulanna because it's a part of her in much the same way Wordblood is.
>>
No. 68008 ID: 47a120

>>68007
The image with the eyes in the dark, once color corrected, clearly came from a dragon shaped thing. If it is the influence of the wyld it could still be, remember that when we created K the lunar exaltation joined into the process unexpected and that the lunar exaltation was already tainted by the wild...

Or... actually we created K AFTER having the contact with akatriana and we blacked out so that means that dragon shadow was possibly present for her creation... so maybe my hypothesis on this being a shadow aspected stealth deva of Saulanna. Stealth could extend to masking people's perception.

Although I consider both above possibilities to be a long shot and the most plausible scenario is that its an avatar of the Dragon Shadow.
>>
No. 68010 ID: d1efde

>>68008
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/474224.html#495844

Actually, now that I'm examining the pics closer, I'm pretty sure that's the hero soul in the background there, tinted the same green as those faint tendrils and seemingly wrapped in them. Not saying this couldn't be because of something the DS or one of his devas caused, but it does seem as if there is a problem with the Hero Soul.
>>
No. 68011 ID: a31717

I don't even know why there's a discussion over whether TDS is the agency behind this intrusion. The eyes we saw match the only image we've seen of him.

>>/questarch/194724
>>67787

That seems pretty solid proof to me, especially in light of Kat's contact (and the feel of what she did matching the coils we see now) and that this would seem to be well within his domain.
>>
No. 68012 ID: 4eb46d

Uhm, doesn't the Great Curse only affect the virtue that defines Saulanna the most? If it does, then for the power being offered by the Curse to 'fit' with Saulanna, her most defining virtue would have to be Temperance.

Now the question is: Would you say that Saulanna's most defining virtue is, in fact, Temperance?
>>
No. 68013 ID: 47a120

>>68010
We know there is a problem with the hero soul, the great curse and as a result of said curse the hero's sound inability to adapt to the feywyld taint.

At the image you linked the green tentrils have already been shown around K And saulanna so it could still be any of the myriad theories we presented, from the dragon shadow, to his avatar, to the magic of the oath with akatrianna, to the curse, to the taint of the feywild.
>>
No. 68014 ID: 354299

>>68012
That's canon!Exalted, and therefore completely irrelevant to Lunar Quest canon.
>>
No. 68017 ID: 5b3e4b

>>67998
Ah. I brought it up because DS was a yozi, is all.

>>68014
Completely? No. Largely, maybe.
>>
No. 68018 ID: 354299

>>68017
>Ah. I brought it up because DS was a yozi, is all.
>DS
...Who is not a Yozi, in current Lunar Quest canon, exemplifying why one should not bring preconceptions from canon!Exalted to Lunar Quest.
>>
No. 68022 ID: cee89f

>>68018
....

'Was'.

I said 'WAS.'

And he WAS a Yozi in this story. It is explicitly stated that DS ESCAPED from hell to take over the underworld. This is a HUGE deal to Creation.

(also, i forgot to put in my username when I posted from a school comp - sorry about that)
>>
No. 68023 ID: 520816

Hello! It's great to see that this story is still going on.

It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?

Seems like Saulanna's motivation so far has been to remain independent and not be manipulated. (Yes, Temperance as main virtue so far.) If she ever hangs out with the Lu -- uh, Moon Heroes, she could learn about a (massively hypocritical) project of theirs that's meant to help everyone become independent of Heroic meddling. Might be a worthy cause.

Also: Power Word: Panic!
>>
No. 68028 ID: 268ba5

>>68023
>to see how far Saulanna will go
Thees will be situations where the souls will be interrogated, allowed to speak on their behalf and when brought in will be read by kairosa and judged accordingly. But even in the best case scenario, I think the most we should offer is to later undo the consuming of the soul and allow it to exist in another way. Not sure what form that might take, but letting souls wander off free is probably going to remain a bad idea.

...I wonder if we can figure out other ways to utilize souls. As in, dedicating a single soul to a special power that can be undone easily, or somehow taking a majority of their TW but leaving them in some weaker form that they agreed to. I can imagine some souls wanting to forget all the evil deeds they caused, so do a partial rewind of sorts?
>>
No. 68029 ID: 76b151

Honestly? Those who profit off of slavery are just as bad as those who capture the slaves. In fact they are the ones who further the cause of slavery far more then the slavers do. If there is no profit in it they wouldn't bother.
>>
No. 68034 ID: 520816

>>68029
But see the list of "slavers" from sometime earlier, and the direction it was going? Before long it'll be "a smith who made chains that were used to hold criminals, some of whom were escaped slaves", or "some guy who sold sandwiches to slavers and therefore profited off slavery". Given the way that souls work in this setting, my own view is that eating the ghosts is no worse than killing them. So it becomes a question of who Saulanna's willing to kill, and whether she's imposing "justice" as an excuse to feed, but not "is Saulanna willing to do some uniquely evil, worse-than-murder deed"? Because it's not. Especially with the possibility now of undoing the "eating" later or maybe even imposing her own form of soul-cleansing, tasty reincarnation.

One thing I haven't seen anyone pick up on, yet, is the mention of the Dragon's "other Heroes". In canon those would be the Infernals. Depending on the writer, they're either irredeemable monsters, or people who've figured out how to do what Saulanna's working towards, and venting Limit by acting like James Bond villains. Suppose *they* have something to do with the current problem?
>>
No. 68035 ID: bf54a8

the reason kaan didn't catch all the slavers was he couldn't figure out who was a slaver. we don't need to just run up and eat everyone kai says is associated.
>>
No. 68036 ID: 9db85e

Remember, a big reason the new souls have been getting less and less horrible was merely for saulana's benefit, so that they'd make her less queasy and scarrified.

The people who have been eaten were all people who would have been imprisoned for eternity anyways.
>>
No. 68042 ID: f2c20c

>>68034
Dude, the Slippery Slope argument is lame as hell.

Intent is the issue here. We would want to go after people who knowingly profited off of selling souls to get turned into soulsteel. Heck, Peregrin can tell us exactly which crimes are appropriate to sentence them to death. We eat those who deserve death, and the rest can be put in... prison?
>>
No. 68047 ID: 47a120

>>68023
>It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?
No, in fact I noticed that we have managed to establish a baseline of personality to that point where K immediately and automatically dismissed those who were only tangentially involved without user input based on our previous debates and decisions.
>>
No. 68054 ID: 370c40

>>68034
I don't see any evidence that any of those guys aren't terrible. Until we get Kairosa to taste them I don't think we have enough information on these guys to say anything like that.

Like maybe the merchant's assistant isn't terrible, or something like that, but we won't know that until we actually investigate.
>>
No. 68055 ID: cee89f

>>68042
It's also a real thing and what many were condemning the bounty hunter for falling into. Just because you don't like the argument doesn't mean it shouldn't be maWAIT A SECOND! WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING OUR NEXT MEAL WHEN WE'VE GOT SOMETHING IN OUR HEADS THAT'S MANIPULATING SAULANNA AND KAIROSA?!
>>
No. 68056 ID: 370c40

>>68055
Because I already made my post in the thread. And I'm bored. And I don't feel like there is a whole lot else to say about that situation any more, other than that it doesn't seem very likely that the Great Curse is any more than tangentially involved.
>>
No. 68062 ID: a12965

>>68047
Even so, at least that soul that was an assistant to the slave merchant may not be as bad as her boss. We'll just have to see, won't we?

>>68055
Multitasking!
>>
No. 68071 ID: 47a120

>>68055
Yes the slippery slope is real, but mostly because people don't change overnight from one extreme to the next not because taking a single step towards the middle guarantees you will go all the way to the other extreme.
Changing to something more reasonable is not at ALL an indication of eventually becoming a well intentioned monster.
And its more of a slippery peak because people tend to fortify themselves into one extreme or the next, especially if they are intentionally avoiding one slope by going down another opposite slope. In avoiding slipping into the right you are slipping into the left (or vice versa).
Its better to think and climb towards the peak which is somewhere in the middle.

Also this analogy is misapplying it to the extreme. The analogy that we shouldn't go after people directly involved in feeding people into the soulsteel industry because we will end up going after those who sold them sandwitches is silly as hell and I am still not even sure if the author was even being sarcastic or not.
>>
No. 68075 ID: cee89f

>>68071
>Yes the slippery slope is real, but mostly because people don't change overnight from one extreme to the next...
Considering that we're moving much slower in time than Saulanna (This quest tends to update two, maybe three times a week... and Saulanna experiences that in about a minute. Maybe two.) and we're the ones making most of her decisions at the moment, we don't NEED it to be overnight. Heck, Saulanna /could/ end up doing it in less than a day (her time).

> not because taking a single step towards the middle guarantees you will go all the way to the other extreme.

We are talking about EATING PEOPLE. There is no middle ground there: you eat the people or you don't. We ate the soul-crafter because we didn't have much other choice - we ate the slavers because we are in very serious jeopardy with the Lunars and Abyssal.

>Changing to something more reasonable is not at ALL an indication of eventually becoming a well intentioned monster.

Last I checked "eating people is a-okay" is not a reasonable thing.

>And its more of a slippery peak because people tend to fortify themselves into one extreme or the next, especially if they are intentionally avoiding one slope by going down another opposite slope. In avoiding slipping into the right you are slipping into the left (or vice versa).

I'm an amateur writer/programmer in college, not a philosopher.

>Its better to think and climb towards the peak which is somewhere in the middle.

And in my mind that would be where we are at right now - We're not on a witch hunt for slavers, we are killing ghosts that have done wrong to survive, and as soon as Kairosa has respectable TW generation we'll rely on that instead.

What would you consider middle ground, exactly?

>Also this analogy is misapplying it to the extreme. The analogy that we shouldn't go after people directly involved in feeding people into the soulsteel industry because we will end up going after those who sold them sandwitches is silly as hell and I am still not even sure if the author was even being sarcastic or not.

Hyperbole. It's a thing. You exaggerate in order to make a point.
>>
No. 68076 ID: 9e0824

Personally, I don't even think it's all that bad to eat the souls of actually good and noble people, at this point. After all, by eating those souls, we can invest the proceeds into TW production, quickly boost ourselves to the point where we're producing lots of TW out quickly, and then use that production to spit the souls back out unharmed.
Taken that way, it's not murder at all, really... since the souls in question aren't even aware of the process, it's more like we're serving as a prison. Sure, it's not exactly just to imprison the souls of the righteous, but if it serves a good cause, and isn't too inconvenient to the souls in question (ie: we don't keep them too long), there's not much problem with it. On the other hand, we're totally justified in imprisoning slavers for arbitrary amounts of time, since they were doing the permanent enslavement thing with soulsteel. Even relatively petty criminals might well be imprisoned for a time, as convenient. I don't see the problem.
>>
No. 68080 ID: 47a120

>Eating people is always bad
We already had this discussion. What we are doing is kinder that what the lathe of reincarnation does.

In creation itself, anyone we kill (aside from the most powerful like heroes and maybe some extremely powerful mortals) will be sucked into the lathe and will have their soul scrubbed of all memory and personality and then recycled into a (single) new person.

In deathland we are not in a normal part of creation but a sort of afterlife like realm of reality, like limbo, and those ghosts that reside in it are exempt from the lathe of incarnation. This is an afterlife where there is no judgement at all and those who were horrible monsters in life can continue to pray on the innocents in the after life. When the dragon shadow took out the evil leadership (the deathlords; who were not in the deathlands themselves but the underworld) the populace of souls went from being doomed to eternal torment or working for the deathlords to end creation, to finding themselves in an unmanaged afterlife.

So the majority of souls banded together, formed a society that mirrors mortal life, put the worst on trial and then sentenced them. Minor crimes result in minor punishments. Capital crimes result in death if the criminal is weak enough to be "killed" (aka, can be pushed into the lathe and actually get reincarnated properly) or solitary confinement if too strong to kill. The slavers brought to us were soul force 7 and 8, ridiculously high (an exalted maxes out at SF10, except for terrestrial exalted which typically max out at 7 or 8)... way way too strong for execution via lathe until we came along.

We merely provide this afterlife society the ability to "kill that which is already dead" in the cases which warrant it. Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
We are not even really killing OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
2. We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.
>>
No. 68081 ID: 370c40

>>68080
They were soul force 4 and 5, and the soul force scale goes from 1 to 15, not 1 to 10. It doesn't map exactly to Essence in normal Exalted. The equivalent of Essence 5 is SF 7? I think?

Also I'm not sure the Underworld under the Dragon's Shadow is 'unmanaged' exactly. We don't really have that much information about the Underworld post-Deathlords, aside from vague things like references to 'Shades' and stuff about the Dragon's Shadow's lesser souls running around. Nothing very concrete.
>>
No. 68083 ID: 47a120

>>68081
The underworld under the dragon shadow IS managed.
I said the deathlands are unmanaged. We are in the deathlands.

The deathlords were in the underworld and ruled the underworld and deathlands. When the dragon shadow took over the underworlds the deathlands became independent.
>>
No. 68086 ID: cee89f

>We already had this discussion. What we are doing is kinder that what the lathe of reincarnation does.

A) I remember everyone dropping the discussion since it didn't relate to the situation, I don't remember anyone deciding it was better than Lethe.

B)It's okay because other stuff is meaner? To quote a friend, this argument is like saying "Hey, eating candy every day is fine. You COULD be eating deep-fried butter"

>In creation itself, anyone we kill (aside from the most powerful like heroes and maybe some extremely powerful mortals) will be sucked into the lathe and will have their soul scrubbed of all memory and personality and then recycled into a (single) new person.

I know how reincarnation works in this setting. Are we planning on murdering regular mortals that have next to no defenses against us? Like we are planning to eat these ghosts? If not, this argument is invalid.

(Yes I know we're probably going to have to kill mortals at some point - but I sincerely doubt we'd eat their souls and I doubt even more we would plan for it and hunt them down like rabid dogs)

>In deathland we are not in a normal part of creation but a sort of afterlife like realm of reality, like limbo, and those ghosts that reside in it are exempt from the lathe of incarnation. This is an afterlife where there is no judgement at all and those who were horrible monsters in life can continue to pray on the innocents in the after life. When the dragon shadow took out the evil leadership (the deathlords; who were not in the deathlands themselves but the underworld) the populace of souls went from being doomed to eternal torment or working for the deathlords to end creation, to finding themselves in an unmanaged afterlife. So the majority of souls banded together, formed a society that mirrors mortal life, put the worst on trial and then sentenced them. Minor crimes result in minor punishments. Capital crimes result in death if the criminal is weak enough to be "killed" (aka, can be pushed into the lathe and actually get reincarnated properly) or solitary confinement if too strong to kill. The slavers brought to us were soul force 7 and 8, ridiculously high (an exalted maxes out at SF10, except for terrestrial exalted which typically max out at 7 or 8)... way way too strong for execution via lathe until we came along.

One: how do you know all of this? I don't wanna say you pulled all of that out of your ass, but we've been told very little about how the underworld works and how Soulforce works for exalted. I see the limit for Terrestrials but not for regular exalted. In fact, 8-15 are only barely covered in Wordblood's explanation.
>Beyond this level, through 8 to 14, is the domain of the celestial gods, Noble and even Lordly devas, and other beings that are bound to a higher level of existence. 15 is the last level, but that is merely a representation of the level at which numbers no longer matter, such as with the Incarnae and the ruling Lord devas of the most powerful Titans."
>"7 gets you the Adamant Circle of sorcery, which is the highest. Aside Titanic beings, who are more just using their natural powers that look like spells, only Sun Heroes and their derivatives can use it. It can, like, blow up a city. It's pretty good! Heroes can't go past 7 until they've lived more than a mortal lifetime, and most of them don't, even then."

Two: the underworld is a hellhole. We have been told this from a person sworn not to lie. Remember? The Dragon's devas make life a living hell down there. That's why ghosts flee to the Shadowland we're in.

Three: We got 7 and 8 WILL. Their SF was 4 and 5
>"Aaaand... there you go! One ghost with Soul Force 4, the other with 5.

Four: Why would they be immune to Lethe cleansing at that level anyway? Peregrin said it was unlikely they'd pass on but nobody said that they wouldn't be cleansed if they did.

>We merely provide this afterlife society the ability to "kill that which is already dead" in the cases which warrant it.
No we don't, we're keeping it a secret! At least for now! And why would they let us do that even if they did?

>Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
Dude, you're seriously making a lot of conjecture here. What makes you so sure Saulanna will be doing this?... Come to think of it, can Saulanna even pull in regular people souls? I think that Osmosis thing Wordblood gave us was specifically for ghosts.

>We are not even really killing-
Dude, we're not having this discussion again. They are people, we eat their souls and remove everything that they are. They're DEAD. At the ABSOLUTE least, eating a ghost is like killing it. This has been established.

>OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
>1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
The memory-reading is not the issue... though suddenly I want to ask Saulanna if she has any memory of the two slavers' love lives. If any.

>2. We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.

Also, the soul doesn't go to a new life. It's our slave. Forever. Sure, mortal life sucks and is largely insignificant in this setting... Buuuuuuuuut we're still making it do whatever the hell we want and last I checked slavery was still bad, even in Exalted.
>>
No. 68087 ID: 9e0824

>>68080

True. Better yet, it's not permanent. Even if we (through Kairosa) were to actually eat everything, there'd be nothing stopping us/her from remaking all Creation, exactly as it was before. Of course, we'd probably make some improvements along the way, but you get the idea. We're a Titan. Reality bends to our will, and souls are the building blocks of our desires. No reason not to use them; everything else about this world is designed to.
>>
No. 68093 ID: 47a120

>>68086
>MrTT: We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.
>the soul doesn't go to a new life. It's our slave. Forever. Sure, mortal life sucks and is largely insignificant in this setting... Buuuuuuuuut we're still making it do whatever the hell we want and last I checked slavery was still bad, even in Exalted.
Whoa there, what the fuck!
1. Kairosa is not Saulanna's SLAVE, she is her daughter!
2. I never said mortal life sucks, my argument is that a life is a life. So its equal whether they are reborn to a mortal woman or reborn as saulanna's children (remember there are many tiers of devas)
3. The soul's preordained reincartion is a minor guideline. There are tones of forces that are unaffected by fate and constantly reshape it. As such preordaining is flimsy... besides its not inherently more moral to follow its preordained path rather then another. And it certainly DOES get a new life. Just rather then a random mortal its new life is a specific component of saulanna's devas.
4. Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.

>Are we planning on murdering regular mortals that have next to no defenses against us? Like we are planning to eat these ghosts?
We are not planning on murdering anyone. We are planning on killing some people, maybe even people who are outclassed by us but have earned it via their actions. If we run across a mass murderer or child molester I see no reason to spare him just because he is weaker then us. S/he didn't spare their victims.
And if we do kill a mortal in creation (not where we are right now) we might as well take care of their souls ourselves.

>we've been told very little about how the underworld works and how Soulforce works for exalted. I see the limit for Terrestrials but not for regular exalted. In fact, 8-15 are only barely covered in Wordblood's explanation.
We have been told quite a bit, I did however accidentally insert some info from jukashi's other work (keychain of creation).

>Two: the underworld is a hellhole.
I have no idea why you think this is at all relevant to anything we are discussing.

>Three: We got 7 and 8 WILL. Their SF was 4 and 5
Oops. I made an error there.

>Four: Why would they be immune to Lethe cleansing at that level anyway?
Not immune to the cleansing but immune to being drawn into the lathe in the first place. Their SF is too high for the lathe to pull them in, that's how ghosts form normally in creation. The captain of the guard for example was powerful enough that he would have been a ghost regardless. Gavin was not so had he died in creation instead of the the deadlands he would have been drawn into the lathe.

>No we don't, we're keeping it a secret! At least for now! And why would they let us do that even if they did?
Keeping a service we provide a secret doesn't mean we aren't providing it.
They would let us because we only do it to those whose crimes warrant final death by their own laws and because we have effectively become queen of this region (by making paragrin our vassal and this is his lands)

>Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
>What makes you so sure Saulanna will be doing this?... Come to think of it, can Saulanna even pull in regular people souls? I think that Osmosis thing Wordblood gave us was specifically for ghosts.
She would do it because that is basically what the majority agreed on when we last had this debate in questdis. But hey, its possible people would vote not to.
And of course she can intercept a soul which isn't a ghost yet as she kills their body, she is a titan.

>Dude, we're not having this discussion again. They are people, we eat their souls and remove everything that they are. They're DEAD. At the ABSOLUTE least, eating a ghost is like killing it. This has been established.
So your views are established and are verboten to debate, but anything you disagree with is never established even when there is an overwhelming majority for it? got it.
Also I am not trying to dehumanize them, accurately using the term reincarnation rather then killing does not mean that I think its perfectly moral to do to anyone by force no matter what, in fact its been a critical part of my argument that reincarnation as set up is cruel.

>MrTT: OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
>MrTT: 1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
>The memory-reading is not the issue... though suddenly I want to ask Saulanna if she has any memory of the two slavers' love lives. If any.
Not reading, PRESERVING. Reincarnation destroys all the memories, we don't. This is actually the major point... reusing the TW itself is irrelevent, your own argument for the sanctity of life hinges on the importance of their memories and personality. The lathe purges all of that and recycles the TW into a new blank slate soul.
And we seperated skills from memories so we shouldn't have their lovelife.
>>
No. 68094 ID: 9f5b78

I know this doesn't really matter, but it's bugging the hell out of me. The word is Lethe. Not Lathe, but Lethe.
>>
No. 68095 ID: 47a120

>>68094
Hail fellow Grammar Paladin.
I appreciate being corrected when wrong. I will properly call it Lethe from now on.
>>
No. 68098 ID: 9f5b78

Oh, and something I figured I'd mention. In normal Exalted, Lethe is something a Ghost can enter at any time they want except for in two circumstances. If they've previously chosen for someone to be their master they need their permission. This is a choice though. The second is unless they're bound in Soulsteel. To enslave a ghost requires either their consent or Soulsteel.

So given that anyone who made slave chains for ghosts was making Soulsteel chains... Well, they may not be the most innocent example to give.

Jukashi may very well have changed this, but it's something interesting I thought I'd share.
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No. 68100 ID: cee89f

>>68090
>We are not planning on murdering anyone. We are planning on killing some people, maybe even people who are outclassed by us but have earned it via their actions.
I love how you contradict yourself in the same sentence there.

>If we run across a mass murderer or child molester I see no reason to spare him just because he is weaker then us. S/he didn't spare their victims.

A mass murderer is still a human being who, at the absolute least, deserves to have their crimes proven. I sincerely doubt any mass murderer mortal is going to be strong enough to prevent us taking them in alive. Also pretty much everybody in Creation with more than mortal power has probably killed a lot.

Not even going to touch 'child molester'.

>And if we do kill a mortal in creation (not where we are right now) we might as well take care of their souls ourselves.

I'm not as familiar with Exalted canon as I would like but what little I DO know suggests that would be impossible because Lethe would absorb them instantly - way before we could eat them - or their souls would fall through to the underworld.

>I have no idea why you think this is at all relevant to anything we are discussing.

Neither do I, but you're the one who brought it up. You said that the underworld was functioning like a normal society. Which it is not. Normal societies don't have dragon demons torturing for fun. ( Normal societies have Fae torturing for fun ( =p ) )

>Their SF is too high for the lathe to pull them in, that's how ghosts form normally in creation. The captain of the guard for example was powerful enough that he would have been a ghost regardless. Gavin was not so had he died in creation instead of the the deadlands he would have been drawn into the lathe.

... Okay, one, aren't you one of the guys who keeps saying not to rely on exalted canon? Two... why on earth would Lethe work like that? Isn't the whole point of the underworld to hold on to old business, and then later to 'pass on' by finishing up aforementioned old business?

>Keeping a service we provide a secret doesn't mean we aren't providing it.

... *grumble*

>They would let us because we only do it to those whose crimes warrant final death by their own laws and because we have effectively become queen of this region (by making paragrin our vassal and this is his lands)

The fact that a soulsteel craftsman's sentence (one of the most vile of all ghost-kind) was to be put in a crystal suggests that there is no 'final death' penalty in this society... possibly because they can't do it.

>She would do it because that is basically what the majority agreed on when we last had this debate in questdis. But hey, its possible people would vote not to.
I'm gonna assume this was a debate in Ch.1 and move on.

>And of course she can intercept a soul which isn't a ghost yet as she kills their body, she is a titan.

And titans much, much more powerful than her designed Lethe. It's pull could easily be stronger than ours.

>So your views are established are verboten to debate, but anything you disagree with is never established even when there is an overwhelming majority for it? got it.
I don't remember there being an overwhelming majority for the one you brought up, but I DO remember there being one for the one I did, is the thing >.>

...Then again, my memory is atrocious, so if that ISN'T the case, I apologize for my hypocrisy.

>Not reading, PRESERVING. Reincarnation destroys all the memories, we don't. This is actually the major point... reusing the TW itself is irrelevent, your own argument for the sanctity of life hinges on the importance of their memories and personality. The lathe purges all of that and recycles the TW into a new blank slate soul.

And YOURS hinges on there being a difference between Lethe and our absorption, and there really isn't for the individual person. In either case, the soul permanently loses all identity. The way we use the energy afterward differs but at that point the person is already dead.

Bringing the person back renders this argument (mostly) moot, but then that raises the question of imprisonment, when we release the souls, etc etc that has little to do with the current discussion

>And we seperated skills from memories so we shouldn't have their lovelife.

You just finished saying that we have some of their memories.

>Whoa there, what the fuck!
I've seen slasher villain reveals start this way. :P

>1. Kairosa is not Saulanna's SLAVE, she is her daughter!

WHOA WHOA WHOA!! TIME OUT!!! I said SOUL, not DEVA! Kairosa isn't the soulsteel forger given new life, she's Kairosa, forged from Titan's Will (which wordblood previously described as the tool, not the material) as her own person! Dear god, implying that I think Kairosa is our slave?! Where the hell did you get that idea?!?!

... Though if you want to get technical about it she can'tNO I DON'T WANT TO GET TECHNICAL ABOUT IT! DAUGHTER, NOT SLAVE!!

>2. I never said mortal life sucks, my argument is that a life is a life. So its equal whether they are reborn to a mortal woman or reborn as saulanna's children (remember there are many tiers of devas)
>3. The soul's preordained reincartion is a minor guideline. There are tones of forces that are unaffected by fate and constantly reshape it. As such preordaining is flimsy... besides its not inherently more moral to follow its preordained path rather then another. And it certainly DOES get a new life. Just rather then a random mortal its new life is a specific component of saulanna's devas.

... Okay, I think I see the problem here. You're reacting under the assumption TW is the material we use to make Devas. This is not the case. Wordblood has said that TW is the effort used to force reality into the shape you want - the tool, not the materials. Paintbrush, not paint. (though to be fair, I only know this because I recently went back to find some stuff that happened in thread 1) If anything, Saulanna is the paint, since a piece of her soul formed Kairosa.

(also, I know you never directly said mortal life sucks, but one implication of your argument is that being a part of a titan is better than being a mortal human)

>4. Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.

...And... what does this have to do with killing and eating people?
>>
No. 68101 ID: cee89f

(For the record, MrTT, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate at this point because this discussion interests me - feel free to stop if that's not the case for you)
>>
No. 68102 ID: 9f5b78

>Isn't the whole point of the underworld to hold on to old business, and then later to 'pass on' by finishing up aforementioned old business?

That's not really how the Underworld works exactly. Lots of Ghosts want to stay Ghosts for eternity and just never really die. For some it might be a transitional period, but for others it's how they intend to spend the rest of time.

The Underworld isn't really a natural thing in Exalted, and it's hard to say it has a concrete "point" to it. Primordials who weren't supposed to die did. In trying to imagine what would happen to them, some created the Underworld and some created Oblivion. The way things were and worked weren't really their "point". With the Dragon's Shadow running the the show they may have a point now, but whether that's a good thing or matters is really an entirely different debate.
>>
No. 68103 ID: e4e2ea

Just want to point this out, but everyone in the main thread telling Saulanna to hurry up and focus on the intruder?

She ain't listening.

Everyone screamed Red Alert as soon as they noticed, but Saulanna and Kairosa went on talking about upgrades. Check, even Saulanna's thinking process is laid out and she is ignoring the advice of the posters.

The only way to get Saulanna to focus on the threat is either A. Wordblood snaps the control off of her and Kairosa, or B. she is guided along a path that has her buying protection against mental intrusion and using it.

If Wordblood runs off to fight the intruder, you know what'll happen? Saulanna and Kairosa will shrug their shoulders, go on discussing power-ups, and distribute them without Wordblood.

They're not going to listen to Wordblood's protests. Instead they're going to spend TW for that power-up, and likely leave everyone ill suited to fight off the intruder. All the while, mental control increases.

In fact....

This guy didn't show up until after the first round of upgrades. Maybe that isn't a coincidence? Maybe all the upgrades and TW spent, in a way, boost him as well? He...I dunno, feeds off the process or something? If that is the case, he might be able to stage a take-over after the next big round of buying.

Saulanna needs to either be convinced that mental defense is priority, right now, or Wordblood needs to force the issue. And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Saulanna waves off mental defense because she doesn't think she needs it now.

So I really, really hope Wordblood forces the issue with Power Word Clarity, before the intruder has a chance to adapt.
>>
No. 68104 ID: a12965

>>68103
Maybe he didn't show up until now because these upgrades are potentially a threat to him?

Also, I find it funny that we're talking about killing people when, you know, they're already dead. I mean sure ghosts are still people, mostly, but really they had their go at living already.
>>
No. 68107 ID: 47a120

>>68103
You suggest an excellent path of action. I would change my vote to support this if you post it in main.
Although I would argue that it is FAR more likely that it was there before and raising the soul force has made it possible to detect it rather then making it more powerful.
Another action we should take aside from clarity and self awareness would be to bring peregrine in immediately.
>>
No. 68109 ID: 47a120

>>68100
Murder =! killing. Non murder killing can be self defense, accident, or as punishment to the deserving. I doubt a mortal would ever fall into self defense category but the other two can occur

>Lethe would absorb them instantly
Lethe is partially broken. We can kill via ripping soul out of body rather then destroying body. And even mortal of sufficient strength can resist the pull of the lethe so a titan should have no problem doing so.

>Underworld
I was sure I didn't, if I did I misspoke.

>point of the underworld
The underworld doesn't have a point, it was created by accident as a side effect of the death of the titans. The lethe couldn't handle them so they fell THROUGH it breaking it in the process and creating the underworld, a real which has no point whatsoever.
At least, until the dragon shadow claimed it and reshaped it in his image.

>The fact that a soulsteel craftsman's sentence (one of the most vile of all ghost-kind) was to be put in a crystal suggests that there is no 'final death' penalty in this society... possibly because they can't do it.
mmm... well I went and looked up exactly what he had to say:
>>/quest/467606

>And YOURS hinges on there being a difference between Lethe and our absorption, and there really isn't for the individual person. In either case, the soul permanently loses all identity. The way we use the energy afterward differs but at that point the person is already dead.
Fair enough. you are right there. Having saulanna process them instead of the lethe makes no difference to the individual since either way they are gone. If saulanna processes them then she can undo it and keep their memories for herself or stored somehow (say, in a book). But just because the memories are stored in books doesn't mean anything to the individual who is now gone.

My insistence on using reincarnate though is merely a grammatical technicality, they are already dead and the process we are doing is called that. It is not meant to suggest a difference in morality compared to death (either being worse or better)

>You just finished saying that we have some of their memories.

>I said SOUL, not DEVA! Kairosa isn't the soulsteel forger given new life
>... Okay, I think I see the problem here. You're reacting under the assumption TW is the material we use to make Devas. This is not the case. Wordblood has said that TW is the effort used to force reality into the shape you want - the tool, not the materials.
It is both tool and material. All of reality is made out of TW, in particular souls.
Kairosa does not have his memories, they have been stripped out first, but the TW which used to be his soul is now the TW that makes up her. And if we had forcibly reincarnated him via lethe then his TW would be cleaned of memories by the lethe and then sent to a mortal women to be born as a new human.

>MrTT: Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.
>...And... what does this have to do with killing and eating people?
You argued that by recycling souls ourselves rather then letting the lethe do it we are interefering with the natural cycle did you not? I am saying that the natural cycle actually involves titans as the lethe required titans to be part of the process even before it was broken.
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No. 68111 ID: f2c20c

>>68109
Dude, stop arguing with HalfTangible. He's trolling you.

Devil's Advocate is only a useful tactic when the discussion NEEDS to go on for longer than it normally would.
>>
No. 68118 ID: cee89f

>>68111
"Trolling" implies intent to anger. I have no such intent.

>>68109
>self defense, accident, or as punishment to the deserving
It isn't the first two if we plan it (which we are, in the ghost's case), and I disagree on the third.

>The underworld doesn't have a point, it was created by accident as a side effect of the death of the titans. The lethe couldn't handle them so they fell THROUGH it breaking it in the process and creating the underworld, a real which has no point whatsoever.

Within the world's setting, yeah, but i mean in the context of a game world. IE, what does it DO in the setting. In this case: get people to hold on to old business and stay as ghosts.

>At least, until the dragon shadow claimed it and reshaped it in his image.

I bet the land itself trolls you. "Tripped over a root? U MaD?"

>My insistence on using reincarnate though is merely a grammatical technicality, they are already dead and the process we are doing is called that. It is not meant to suggest a difference in morality compared to death (either being worse or better)

I disagree. They're still around and kicking, might as well be alive. I find it strange that it's easy to think of Gevin as a living person but not any other ghost.

>It is both tool and material. All of reality is made out of TW, in particular souls.

No, reality is made out of Aether. Wordblood and Kairosa refer to it as the "clay with which titans make their great works". And here's a quote from wordblood in Thread #1:
>"Titan's Will is not exactly a resource in that way; rather than being a substance to be molded, it is closer to being the effort required to hold something into a particular shape.

So no, not a resource.

>Kairosa does not have his memories, they have been stripped out first, but the TW which used to be his soul is now the TW that makes up her. And if we had forcibly reincarnated him via lethe then his TW would be cleaned of memories by the lethe and then sent to a mortal women to be born as a new human.

See above: TW is not a resource, it's a tool.

>You argued that by recycling souls ourselves rather then letting the lethe do it we are interefering with the natural cycle did you not?

Uh... no. I do not give two shits about the natural order. Us eating a few souls is not going to break Lethe (i doubt Lethe will even notice or care) The soul is grafted onto our forms and a part of us, and it serves us as mindlessly and obediently as the cells in your arm. My point is that, as much as sending it to a mortal life would suck in this setting, being mindless, spirit bone-marrow is decidedly /worse/.

>>68103
Some are suggesting either self-awareness, for Wordblood to act on his own initiative, or other various things.

I'm just hoping Wordblood still CAN spend TW and that Kairosa doesn't have sole responsibility. Cuz then we're pretty much screwed.

I'd like to add one other thing though: Wordblood, think about the danger here as much as you can. That will broadcast on your scales, and maaaaaybe they'll see it while you're making and using Clarity... but if not, they'll get the message the moment clarity takes effect.
>>
No. 68134 ID: e4e2ea

>>68107

Actually, I did post my suggested course of action. Or close enough, I believe. Can't remember how to link to posts in another thread, but they're there. Two of them.

Or is this not explicit enough? I don't want to clutter up the main thread with more posts, but I suppose I could post again with a more concise plan of action.
>>
No. 68138 ID: 47a120

>>68134
You can delete an old post and then post the clarification.
Your post here in questdis is much better I think.
Also, to cross link you use
>>/quest/#
>>/questdis/#
>>/questarch/#
etc... where # is post number
>>
No. 68163 ID: 47a120

>MrTT: First thing you should do before buying ANYTHING is bringing peregrin inside here, he could help.
>MrTT: Then you should buy ONLY self awareness and PW: Clarity and use both of them; save the rest of the TW till after you see how this play out. Be insistent.
>>/quest/496531
>that means not buying anything during the internal phase

Am I missing something here? I understand time starts moving again (albeit still slowly) when we bring in peregrin but... so what?
>>
No. 68164 ID: 9e0824

>>68163
It has been explicitly mentioned that once we talk to Peregrin, the phase will end. We'll have outside plot to deal with, and will be too busy to do more internal stuffs. We need to have our house in order before then, or the things we haven't attended to will be hanging around throughout the scenes to come, biting us in the ass.
>>
No. 68165 ID: a12965

>>68163
>>68164
The endless internal time will end, probably because bringing in Peregrin means having to resume time. We probably can't extend the time speeding up to him yet. But that doesn't mean we can't do the upgrades - it MIGHT but not necessarily. We simply won't have time to muck about anymore and just have to do it quickly.

But in any case, I think we can resolve this without him.
>>
No. 68169 ID: cee89f

>We probably can't extend the time speeding up to him yet.

Kairosa has said that we can selectively manipulate our internal time, so we can probably bring Peregrin in and keep our time stopped.

Buuuut in order to do that, we'd have to resume time outside to talk to him about it, so the unlimited time still ends, i guess.
>>
No. 68176 ID: 47a120

I understand that the unlimited internal time phase will end I am just asking why it MATTERS that it ends?
Having him assist us with an attack would be far more valuable then saving a bit of time.

And what does it matter if we don't spend all the TW right away? It is near instant to spend TW anyways.
>>
No. 68178 ID: f2c20c

>>68176
It's not the internal frozen time ending that's the problem. It's that the internal phase will be over altogether.

We won't be able to deal with things that need to be dealt with in the internal world!
>>
No. 68180 ID: 47a120

>>68178
what things? the only things remaining are:
1. This new threat.
2. Assigning TW which we can do in regular phase instantly anyways.

We already finished everything else.
>>
No. 68182 ID: 76b151

you're forgetting about communing with our hero soul.
>>
No. 68185 ID: cee89f

>>68182
Do we need to be in our inner world for that? Or, if you wanna be meta, do we need to be guaranteed a lack of interruption? And if we do, is the chance that Peregrin can help us in here high enough to risk waiting on the communion? I think so.
>>
No. 68186 ID: 76b151

The way it was said when we were warned that exiting the internal world would end this segment said to me that internal world stuff like the intruder and the hero soul would have to wait until later. I don't think we can take that chance with it actively influeincing Saulanna and Kairosa and our Hero Soul. We need it gone now. Not later. Especially if we're thinking of communing with the Hero Soul and its under this things influence.
>>
No. 68188 ID: d6ef5d

>>68185
We don't need a time stop to commune, no. But as it might be a slow process, it's sure as hell convenient.
>>
No. 68190 ID: cee89f

>>68188
Maybe, but while we're communing, Green-Four-Eyes-in-the-dark can do whatever he wants. Whatever is in our head is capable of wiping Kairosa and Saulanna's memories. Any advantage we can gain is one we /need/, and as soon as possible.

In the outside world, no one can really get to us even if time speeds back up - we're deep underground, Askalaff doesn't wanna try his own teleporting ability in a Shadow(y?)land, and the Death Hero teleport power is drowned out by our soul fire.
>>
No. 68191 ID: 47a120

>>68190
Pretty much all that.

>>68182
The purpose of communing with hero soul is to spend TW to gain self awareness.
At most this argument would change the order to:
1. Buy self awareness (via communing with hero soul)
2. Bring in peregrin
3. Buy PW: cleanse and cast it

Rather then my original suggestion of doing 2,1,3.
>>
No. 68197 ID: f2c20c

We still haven't checked out the tent! We should not stop the internal phase without doing that first.
>>
No. 68198 ID: 47a120

So given a choice between checking the tent right now rather then having peregrin help us fight mind control you choose checking the tent?
>>
No. 68200 ID: f2c20c

>>68198
Yes.

Why do you think Peregrin would be of any use here, exactly? Why would he be immune to the memory scrubbing, hmm? Or be able to do anything at all against the Deva?

I'd like to note that by this point the Deva inside Saulanna's head knows that it can't hide the traces of it having been there. It's already been discovered, so all it can do is prevent any action from being taken against it until it can get out again. That's what it's doing right now- keeping Saulanna and Kairosa oblivious even though Wordblood knows it's there and is trying to warn them.

It's acting defensively, and is the only action it's taken since it entered aside from subtly offering to teach Saulanna emotion-bottling. The more I think about it, after the initial shock of being spied upon wore off, the more I believe that this deva is not an enemy. It's not out to get us. Can you honestly think of a reason for it to be?

It's in the Dragon's Shadow's best interest to have Saulanna as an ally. Keep that in mind.
>>
No. 68202 ID: 47a120

>>68200
1. I personally argued that its probably not an enemy but a spy who leaves the occasional gift. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to catch it, just that we shouldn't destroy it.
2. Peregrin can likely help because he is an experienced exalted. Exalted are built to resist titanic mind manip. Even if he has no specific tricks for it he would be another highly resilient target for this intrusion to split its attention between.
>>
No. 68204 ID: d1efde

>>68202
If we release the time lock this spy may be able to escape. The release of the time lock could be the ultimate goal behind this entity forcing Saulanna and Kairosa to finalize the distribution of TW.
>>
No. 68205 ID: c6319f

A spy is an enemy. Maybe it doesn't cause direct harm, but whoever or whatever it is passing information could more easily be able to due to its actions. We do not know its purpose in our realm, but we do know we did not intend to let it in. The most reasonable course of action is to hunt it down aggressively and determine whether it is a true threat, then destroy it if it is.

If it is a servant of the Dragon's Shadow, pulling in Peregrin, who has admitted to being bound by at least some oaths to the Dragon's Shadow, I think, would be a poor decision to make.

There is also the broader issue of whether we invite him in here in the first place, ever, which is not something I have seen a consensus on.
>>
No. 68207 ID: cee89f

>>68204
You say that almost like the spy getting out of us is a /bad/ thing. What do you think we're gonna try and do when we find it, have a tea party?!

...

Though dmittedly that'd be kind of hilarious and put it off-balance.

>>68205
>If it is a servant of the Dragon's Shadow, pulling in Peregrin, who has admitted to being bound by at least some oaths to the Dragon's Shadow, I think, would be a poor decision to make.

He's also bound as our vassal by true name oath, and has shown himself to be largely independent from the Dragon's Shadow.

>>68202
Spies ARE enemies.

>>68200
If we could guarantee that, the argument that it's not a threat and we should keep it would have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, we can't. So we can't just leave it be and hope it's on our side. At the absolute least, we need to find and catch it. We're in too vulnerable a position to do otherwise.
>>
No. 68208 ID: 3bad4c

> bound as our vassal by true name oath
That doesn't properly take effect until both ends of the bargain are upheld. Currently they are not.
>>
No. 68210 ID: 47a120

1. Its now just a spy, its a spy bearing gifts... like santa claus.
2. The Ebon shadow transformed into shadow dragon to escape being bound by a true name oath.
3. If it is a deva (most likely) of the dragon shadow then its one of his children. He would be upset if we killed it, he will be furious if we BOUND IT IN SLAVERY.
4. The fact we have bound kaan is probably a black mark for us as far as he is goes.
5. Capturing the spy and then letting it go for some good faith and maybe concessions would be more useful then just letting it escape on its own terms.
>>
No. 68215 ID: 16e17c

>>68210
1. Do we know this gift is benign? How does it work? Would WE control when the emotions come out, or the Deva? Could the Deva leave it on indefinitely, making us a cold calculating beast of machine logic? Why would we trust something made by the setting's greatest manipulator and biggest prick?
2. Peregrin is significantly weaker and less smart than the Ebon Dragon.
3. Personally I'm voting we kick it out. Not even enslave, just force out of us.
4. That particular point was to advocate why Peregrin would be trustworthy, or at least enough to bring him in.
5. True but the important thing is that it gets out.

... Wait. who are you talking to?

>>68208
... Good point.
>>
No. 68217 ID: 9f5b78

I'd like to remind that Peregrin chose to be bound by a True Name Oath, and even offered to make the oath one of servitude where the initial suggestion was to make sure he couldn't harm, deceive, work against us, and maybe answer some questions.
>>
No. 68219 ID: 16e17c

>>68217
And he was unable to answer our questions because of his oaths to the Dragon's Shadow - what he wants may not factor in.
>>
No. 68220 ID: 9f5b78

>>68219
My point is more that he isn't enslaved as much as bound to an oath that he suggested be one of servitude in exchange for magic.
>>
No. 68233 ID: 5d121c

The recent chaos in the suggestions thread is pretty dumb. Which is perfect. Simulates a rising freakout for Saulanna perfectly.
>>
No. 68236 ID: f2c20c

>>68220
Yes. Enslavement implies we are giving him nothing in return.

He's a servant. He's being paid for his time.
>>
No. 68237 ID: cee89f

>>68220
>>68236
... I think i missed something, when did anyone imply Peregrin was our slave?
>>
No. 68239 ID: 47a120

>>68215
2. I wasn't referring to peregrin I was referring to forcing an oath out of the intruder.

>>68208
While this is true, I am coming to trust peregrine. I believe he was not lying about his true purpose and intent and he has a lot to lose from turning on us anyways. So yes he COULD turn on us but he seemed genuine on his intention and on the deal we struck.
Also, if he does turn on us using that technicality we just have to shout some knowledge at him.
>>
No. 68240 ID: cee89f

>>68239

Again,
>>68219
>what he wants may not factor in.
>>
No. 68242 ID: 47a120

Oh, I see. Conflicting oaths, yea that is a problem.
>>
No. 68245 ID: 9f5b78

>>68237
It came up at some point regarding it pissing off The Dragon's Shadow. Feeling a bit too lazy to look for it right now. Felt it important enough to clarify somewhere though.
>>
No. 68253 ID: f2c20c

>>68208
My understanding is that the oath keeps hold until he believes that his end of the bargain will not be fulfilled. Thus, Wordblood figuring out how to teach him like we promised.

Which he has.
>>
No. 68256 ID: 95868e

>"I will teach you a fair portion of my titanic power. For this, you will serve me.
>You will serve faithfully, wisely, and well, as best as you can do.
>You will not deceive me, nor allow me to be deceived;
>You will not go against my will, nor what my will would be.
>Any command I give, you will obey; save that I would gain by it.
>My goals will be yours; my allies, yours; my secrets, yours.
>This is the bargain I offer you."

the only way he can go against us is if DS can break the oath somehow.
>>
No. 68259 ID: f2c20c

>>68256
...I just realized something. During the confrontation with Akatrina, Peregrin said nothing. With that oath in play... he didn't consider what Akatrina was saying to be deceptive either.
>>
No. 68262 ID: 47a120

>>68259
I am not surprised since it coincides with everything we already know. The Dragon Shadow is NOT pure evil and I have no idea why we even tried to argue as such to her.
He ended soul-steel, hunts down slavery, and saved creation. Even if the ebon dragon was evil he had to fundamentally transform into a different being to escape the true name oaths binding him in prison as a yozi.
>>
No. 68264 ID: 4224e5

I gotta wonder about the status of the Great Curse on the death heroes though... It used to be the whispers of the Neverborn and cast the world into Oblivion, but DS fixed all that so?
>>
No. 68269 ID: f922dd

>>68264
The Abyssals never suffered from the Great Curse in the first place (it was removed from their Exaltations when they became Abyssals). Being under the thumbs of the Neverborn (even renegade Abyssals were still subject to their displeasure at not spreading death and destruction) more than made up for that in terms of badness, but it wasn't the Great Curse.

The usual disclaimer of "This is Exalted canon that doesn't necessarily apply to this quest" applies. Still, the Death Heroes in this setting seem to have gone from being under the thumb of the Neverborn to being under the thumb of the Dragon's Shadow.
>>
No. 68270 ID: d6ef5d

>Kaan's situation
Remember that he primarily seems interested in the search for information and knowledge- it's what drove him to summon a demon and get killed (initially triggering his exaltation), its what drove him to create Saulanna as she is today, and its what made him chose to serve her when he found he could not control her.

I'm not sure it's been made clear whether he's more interested in the application of this information as magical/titanic power, or if he seeks to learn and understand more for understanding's sake.

>>68259
He said it himself. He's a death hero. That means he has at least some sympathy to their position.

He also could have believed we weren't actively being tricked or overpowered (that we were capable of handling it), or that it was in our own interest to hear her position. Or that his stepping in might have further upset a delicate situation (not playing to our interests or goals).

It's an oath of alliance- not absolute control. He's still left with a fair degree of freedom in his actions depending on how he perceives a situation.
>>
No. 68281 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/496794
WB gained the ability to create a mist that sustains life in our inner world as his SF3 upgrade.
And besides, he is an exalt so he wont die just from being in a fatal environment.
>>
No. 68303 ID: cee89f

>>68281
>WB gained the ability to create a mist that sustains life in our inner world as his SF3 upgrade.

What he said!

>And besides, he is an exalt so he wont die just from being in a fatal environment.

Wordblood was the one who said he wouldn't be able to survive in our inner world in the first place =p
>>
No. 68305 ID: f2c20c

On a different topic...

I think I'm getting closer to figuring out what Saulanna's Purpose/Heart's Desire is.

Look at the way she approached each situation. She found a ghost, and inspired it to work harder, then took sympathy and decided to aid him in finding his lost love and delivering the box to her, taking a dominant or leader role in the relationship.

Then she fought some mobsters and ate the leader, then directed the survivors to send false information back to their leader. Peregrin showed up, and we effectively became his boss via the Oath.

She's a LEADER of (Will/Soul/Spirit).
>>
No. 68307 ID: 76b151

So she is the Queen of Hearts?
>>
No. 68308 ID: 5c667c

>>68305

I think she's far too young to know what she wants. I'm 21 and I don't know my own Heart's Desire equivalent in real life.
>>
No. 68312 ID: cee89f

>>68308
I'm 21. My heart's desire is to become a writer.

And to be perfectly honest, Heart's Desire sounds more like a primary motivation than an end-game goal.

What little I know of exalted mechanics (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong - exalted corebooks are ludicrously hard to find here) suggests that Heart's Desire is the equivalent of Motivation. Something that motivates you. Not necessarily your end-goal, just something that's motivating you at that point in your life.
>>
No. 68314 ID: 354299

>>68312
Motivation, in Exalted Canon, is actually the end goal. Examples of (an Exalt's) Motivation would be "Destroy the Realm" or "Learn All The Spells. All Of Them." Intimacies are the things you look at to find out what motivates your character (e.g. for "Destroy the Realm", a character may also have as an Intimacy "The Realm (Vengeful Hatred)").

Of course, this is Lunar Quest as you said, so...
>>
No. 68334 ID: 5d121c

>>68312
Mortal Motivations are different than Exalted ones. A mortal might want to write a really great novel in their life. An exalt would never have something so small as their entire Motivation.
>>
No. 68337 ID: cee89f

>>68334
AFTER the perspective nigh-immortality gives you sinks in, maybe.

>>68314
Ah. Okay.
>>
No. 68338 ID: bddf2b

>>68269
Canon suggests that since the Death Heroes have had the Great Curse removed, the only thing innately ruining their lives (their "angst meter") is what the Neverborn do to them for not being horrible. So, any Death Hero who became a Sun Hero would lack the curse and potentially be one of the most sane and reasonable beings in Creation. The same would apply to Death Heroes in this setting, where the Neverborn are out of the picture. Why, Kaan could probably even love Saulanna and not make her explode with unholy energy for feeling that way! ...Unless TDS is in charge of Resonance and cares about it, which doesn't seem likely. This was the guy who reduced Infernals' angst meter for hatching crazy plans involving marriage, and this whole setting is vaguely like a sequel to the canon "Return of the Scarlet Empress" campaign which draws heavily on (twisted) positive relationships.

>> Some other post
"Yes. Enslavement implies we are giving him nothing in return.
He's a servant. He's being paid for his time."

I imagine at some point, asking Wordblood if he's okay with being mystically subservient to Saulanna. The answer is probably yes, there's probably no way to undo his bond to her, and if he doesn't like it it's kind of his own fault, but I think he'd appreciate being asked.
>>
No. 68339 ID: cee89f

>>68338
I imagine that posing the question would be a lot like asking a human "Are you okay with being being enslaved to gravity?"
>>
No. 68342 ID: beeca1

>>68339
Many humans are not, hence flight and space travel. A perfectly valid question.
>>
No. 68343 ID: d6ef5d

>Wordblood if he's okay with being mystically subservient to Saulanna.
He's already expressed his reticence to be anything but. His current purpose is our aide, and whatever he was before, he feels uncomfortable or wrong being in a position of power over her (to the point where he's reluctant to even act to dispel status ailments Saulanna might be subject to).

On the other hand, he's as good as admitted he wants power too, with his alt text message about every Lord having at least a little fantasy of being the King or Queen. Sure, he was talking about Kairosa, but it applies to him as well. Some part of him longs to be what he once was.
>>
No. 68350 ID: cee89f

>>68342
My point was that nobody really thinks of it as 'slavery'. It just is. We get pulled down because gravity is a thing: the lords obey the queen because a queen soul is a thing. Also, until I have my jetpack I do not believe humans are THAT ticked about being enslaved to gravity.
>>
No. 68351 ID: d6ef5d

>>68350
The main difference between the human-gravity situation and the Lord-King/Queen situation is no human has the option of deposing gravity and changing places with it.
>>
No. 68352 ID: 76b151

That shall be my Heart's Desire. To BECOME GRAVITY!
>>
No. 68353 ID: cee89f

>>68351
Neither do Lords, as far as we know. They CAN become Queen or King, but it's not something they can just decide.

>>68352
Saulanna, mistress of gravity! The next generation of Superher- i mean Exalted- i mean Hero!
>>
No. 68354 ID: 520816

>>68352
This is Exalted. Becoming Gravity might actually be an option! I think Creation's "physics" consists of some unshaped fae (ie. crazier versions of the Titans) lashed together by the one called She Who Lives In Her Name ("Swillin'" to her friends).
>>
No. 68355 ID: 9f5b78

>>68354
If I'm remembering correctly that's not quite true(Physics being Unshaped Fae I mean. I'm sure becoming Gravity is possible in Exalted.) In normal Exalted physics is defined by Fate. Part of the reason the Loom of Fate was made was so that the Maidens weren't spending every waking hour ensuring things weren't flying out of creation, effects weren't preceding or happening without causes, ect ect.
>>
No. 68356 ID: 76b151

lets eat Fate.
>>
No. 68358 ID: 370c40

>>68356
Let's eat samsara. Even better.
>>
No. 68359 ID: 5d121c

>>68337
No, it's not after the perspective shift. People with small motivations don't exalt.
>>
No. 68361 ID: 47a120

>>68343
Are you sure wordblood is reluctant to act independently to free saulanna from mind control?
This seems like a horribly silly train of thought which we could and should logic through.

Being given a direct order to not free someone who you swore to obey for example... the order is not from THEM, the real order from them is/would be to free their mind. The order to not free them is from the interloper affecting their mind. It is the easiest zeroeth law rebellion to justify but maybe we should write a solid coherent logical justification such as that and post it in the threat.
>>
No. 68363 ID: 35edd4
File 136177143123.png - (100.48KB , 600x500 , manipulated.png )
68363

This is definitely not right. Someone's manipulating Kairosa. Wordblood knows something's up; tell him you see this green tentacle on her. Maybe make a grab for it? If that doesn't work we'll have to rely on his wisdom finding a mode of attack, or the thing's reaction.
>>
No. 68364 ID: f2c20c
File 136177331965.png - (94.05KB , 600x500 , tentacles.png )
68364

>>495867
Here's some more visible on the Hero Soul and Saulanna.
>>
No. 68365 ID: 52d91f
File 136178161078.png - (77.31KB , 600x500 , Tentacles2.png )
68365

I don't suppose we could get Engineer Syrup in here to assist with this? No?

Ah well, I think we definitely want Self-Awareness now. I think we might want to reconsider on Power Word: Clarity too.

Also: Beetlejuice, Bettlejuice, Beetlejuice!
>>
No. 68366 ID: cee89f

>>68363
>>68364
>>68365
...

I thought I was in the wrong tab and/or that there was an update for a second there =p
>>
No. 68369 ID: c5e94a
File 136229157067.png - (65.11KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdisc.png )
68369

"We can speak more freely here."

"Whatever this was, I don't think it's the Dragon's Shadow, not unless he's been severely changed from how I knew him. For one thing, he does not feel shame. It's not in his nature. On the other hand, he might not be directly involved; his essence has always had a particular habit of being... infectious, and bleeding outward in ways he doesn't intend."

"Pardon for disregard your calls about expending Titan's Will, by the way. Aside my concerns of making things worse, it was also a worry that any methods we could have used might be wasted. When a concealing force opposes a revealing one, the stronger is victorious. If it was the Dragon's Shadow doing this, or even one of his Lord souls, it would have been a waste. And if it wasn't him... Well, you seem to have other suspicions of your own?"

>>
No. 68370 ID: d6ef5d

I don't think that's the dragon's shadow anymore. It's too different.

>immune due to your element
>hiss of acid
>pain, not mine, but not totally removed
>upset balance
>Afraid/ashamed/Remorse/Grief/Despair/yearning/frustration

Wordblood, I think this thing might be whatever is left of He Who Bleeds.
>>
No. 68371 ID: 662219

>>68369

if it's just a seepage of his essence from the deal we made with Deathtits, the clarity power word trick just might work.

and if that's the case, the feelings you felt were probably his disgust over the defeat of your previous incarnation. I hear titans have rather strong feelings about that little incident.

it's not like we can do anything else right now, and if the aforementioned trick doesn't work, we probably should stop worrying about it because we can't really do anything about it except continuing to gain power.

heh, it reminds me of that one time I ran a quest and did something similar. but with centipedes. fuck yeah, centipedes rock.
>>
No. 68372 ID: 4411c7

Dang nabbit, we've got Wordblood's Neverborn all up in our mind-space not paying rent.
>>
No. 68373 ID: f2c20c
File 136229270007.png - (60.74KB , 600x500 , the_horror.png )
68373

>>68369
You're right. It's NOT him.

It's you. Or rather, a part of you. I believe you carried one of your Noble Souls with you. Your opposite.

Also uh it looks kinda...
>>
No. 68374 ID: f2c20c
File 136229273075.png - (72.15KB , 600x500 , THEHORROR.png )
68374

KINDA FREAKY.
>>
No. 68375 ID: 5d98c3

>>68373
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

HIT IT WITH A STICK! IT'S SCARY!
>>
No. 68376 ID: cee89f

>>68369
...

Several voices have suggested that that thing is the Wyld taint in our hero's soul, and after that glance at it's form I'm starting to lean in that direction as well. It seems almost unreal, something without actual substance or form. On top of that... well...

I don't know how well you saw it, but it looked... chimera-esque. Tentacles, mouths, extra eyes everywhere, hands, wings... all placed seemingly without rhyme or reason all over it... And... it looked sad. It spoke to us when we tried to prod it. Just said 'hurt'.

However, you told us you could sense the taint in our hero's soul. Does this thing feel anything like that?
>>
No. 68377 ID: d6ef5d

>>68374
It looks more... distressed than hostile. Is there any way we could help it you think? Give it some kind of peace?
>>
No. 68378 ID: 9ddf68

>>68374
Anyone want to take a guess on what element or word that thing represents because from what i'm getting off this guy is he is some kind of hidden pain. like a skeleton in a closet sort of thing. I mean he isn't all that pleasant to look at, seems to be in pain, and wants nobody to know he's there.
would repression work here, as in repressing or bottling up some kind of pain or regret. I don't know
>>
No. 68379 ID: 76b151

Alright lets lay this down.

This thing restricts memories. Like a snake constricts its victims. The more they struggle the tighter its coils get. It could be tentacles, or vines too.

In the last picture we saw of it I thought it was almost tree-like. SO I'm leaning vines instead of tentacles.

Not only memories but apparently emotions can be constricted as well.

It's in pain because Worldblood can see it. No matter how faintly.

Acknowledging its presence, talking to it, communicating with it, actually caused it to retreat. It said it hurt it because of it.

It wishes to be Unknown. Its element might be some facet of that. And Wordblood's ability to communicate with everything is bypassing that.

Wordblood did He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word have a Deva with such an element? Who was strongly associated with a choking vine or some such?
>>
No. 68381 ID: 9f5b78

Yeah, I'm thinking we inherited two Devas from He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word. The ones responsible for the Unknown Word bit.
>>
No. 68382 ID: 1b643c

>>68376
Even if it is tainted by the Wyld, there is probably a good chance it could be a Noble Soul that was excised from HWBTUW, or something stranger, like a composite of several lesser nobles.
What would happen to a Noble Soul that was left on it's own devices or trapped somewhere it could not find it's superior?
Also, it may have a physical vessel somewhere nearby, when this phase is over I'ld suggest looking for any containment magic or traces of it's spoor. Maybe it wants you to find it.
>>
No. 68383 ID: 406926

Based on the description of its emotions toward you, Wordblood, I'm in agreement with the thinking that it's some remnant of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word. You said to us, once:
>"I was a key part of my progenitor, I think. My memories haze, somewhat. I may even have been the defining soul of He from whom I came. I wonder what happened when I was torn away. To damage a Titan's souls is to alter their nature."

If you were the defining soul of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word, surely he would feel what you described toward you now- grief, despair, yearning, frustration. It has been altered into something else in your absence, and knows that it has been altered into something else, creating that tension and sense of wrongness. You can feel the echo of its pain at your loss, and the eternal agony that all the Titans seem to be experiencing now.

The question is, is this is so, how did it get into Saulanna's internal world? Perhaps it was able to feel your awakening and use of Titan's Will after so long, still linked to you in some way even with your removal?

In any case, if you know the Lord devas of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word and could share a list, perhaps we might be able to take a guess at what has become of Him now and if the being we're seeing might be one of them.
>>
No. 68385 ID: f2c20c

Here's a disturbing thought: If this injured Noble or Deva needs help, isn't the best person to go to for that the Dragon's Shadow?

Maybe we don't want to tailor our choice of powers to beating Akatrina. Maybe we should be more worried about the Moon Heroes.
>>
No. 68386 ID: 5d98c3

>>68374
>>68377
AAAAAAAAAAH! IT'S A TRAGIC MONSTER HATED AND ALONE, FEARED BY ALL IN A WORLD THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND IT!

HIT IT WITH A STICK!
>>
No. 68387 ID: 281e24

This is...interesting.

Also, where this guy came from is suddenly a lot more important. Was he stuck in here when Peregrin did the original procedure? This guy just came along for the ride? Or was he implanted recently by Akatrina? If Akatrina is responsible for depositng this guy in us, then that implies she did it deliberately and knows a LOT more than we hoped she did, or this guy somehow hitchhiked on her to come to us.

Hmm...is it possible this guy is more like the ghost or something of Unknown Word? Wordblood is the new incarnation, this is the old incarnation, and the old incarnation KNOWS it no longer belongs. The new incarnation holds the rightful claim to the concepts, and it is ashamed, bottling itself up (just like the offered power) to avoid coming into direct conflict with Wordblood and ending with a fight to the death or something.

....Wait. Shit. Bottling up emotions. If this guy is using a power similar to that, bottling its own emotions, drawing it out, and with it the emotions, may be the worst thing we can do.

Other idea: is it possible that the Dragon's Shadow ate remains of Unknown Word in its way out of Hell? Incorporating fragments of a Titan that was never lobotomized into itself? So now what Akatrina put into us, something of the Dragon's Shadow's power, but also tied in Wordblood's, has just enough to have this unusual perspective?

Just speculating here.
>>
No. 68388 ID: 6ab4d5

Was that... A hekatonkhire? They are in a shadowland at night... Perhaps a Hekaton of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word? Or maybe a Deva of Elloge? (Has Elloge's status been confirmed for this Creation as far as we know? I just recently got here and I haven't read the whole of the previous discussion)
Gah, confusion.
>>
No. 68391 ID: 9f5b78

>>68388
>A hekatonkhire

Oh that is... That would be interesting. And perhaps also a good reason to start on a Creation Deva of Life so we could use some Titan's Will to bring this one back to it.
>>
No. 68393 ID: 370c40

>>68391
It already exists. A Creation deva would not be well suited to that.
>>
No. 68394 ID: 76b151

A healing deva, maybe one with with the element of rebirth probably would be better.
>>
No. 68395 ID: c5e94a
File 136231602321.png - (77.62KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis2.png )
68395

>>68370
>I think this thing might be whatever is left of He Who Bleeds.
>>68373
>It's you. Or rather, a part of you.

"No. If this was part of me, or part of who I once was, I would know. I feel a connection to it, but not to that degree. What I felt was... rrrmh. It's hard to choose a word you would understand. Alien to myself, but not completely so. Like how a bird would feel about the bottom of the sea. A world away from my own place, but still part of a higher order."

"Besides which... I've been thinking about my former existence, since Kairosa told me why I was assassinated. A quick set of first strikes to open a war? With Titans on their side, telling them our weak points? Killing us whole would have taken too long, been excessive. The more I consider what I would have done in that position, the responses there would have been, the more I think it was only I myself, as King, who was the real target. Kill me, and a few key Nobles, particularly through betrayal by creatures we loved... He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word would be shocked to the core. Traumatized. The other Lords would try to regenerate us into a more... defensive being. I, the Aide of Understanding, the communicator, would have had to have been... sacrificed. Allowed to fall aside. My opposing Noble raised in my place, perhaps. For the Greater Purpose. I understand, of course. Better, anticipating further injury, to become more insular, harder to penetrate. Less capable of reaching out. Those memories we have taken are thin on their knowledge of the Titans, but there are names I don't know, set over devas I do. Many Titans in the war were damaged enough to reform into creatures with different names. If I - who I had been - was one of those? No, there wouldn't be anything beyond myself in here, not that I would be unaware of."

"It is something of a relief, to hope my others still survive. I would like to catch up on them. But I am part of Saulanna, now. I am fortunate, and honoured, almost beyond belief."


>>68376
>Does this feel anything like [the Wyld taint]?

"That's an interesting question. My first instinct is to say no, but now I consider it... there's something similar. This has nothing to do with the Wyld, but when I think of how the touch of the Wyld afflicts the Hero Soul, there feels like some sort of similarity. There was some notice, earlier, that this entity's influence is on the Hero Soul as well. There is some sort of intersection there, but beyond that I cannot fathom it myself."

>It spoke to us
>just said 'hurt'

"I did hear. But it was... ambiguous, don't you think? Was that a declaration, a promise, or a request?"

>>68374
>KINDA FREAKY.

"Goodness, is that what it looked like? Disturbing."

"... Hold on."

"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"

>>
No. 68396 ID: 6d4230

Lets go out on a limb and not assume the worst: its not a hekatonkhire, (pretty sure they dont exist like devas anyway) and it certainly isnt a neverborn, because if it was, everthing would be gone. not dead, but fucking morganti erased.

It seems like it may be some kind of neverborn deva, but we dont know if the neverborn even have devas anymore.
So we cant realy deal with it until we know just what it is. and it isnt hostile unless we interact. damn.
>>
No. 68397 ID: f8a320

Saulanna tail's color and eyes marker.
>>
No. 68398 ID: 256d52

Do you think it's a curse?

What would it take to fuel, to anchor, the manifestation of the titan's rage and despair at betrayal by their own creations? You know, the blight on the victor's existence: their own creations in turn ruining everything they ever build, over and over, all the way down forever.

It was tied to the Hero's Soul, so Saulanna was affected. Kairosa was born of Saulanna, so was passed down to her as well. But you, Wordblood, are just enough outside to not be touched by it.

A curse is meant to hide its own existence after all. And bottling all your emotions up to be released later does remind me of limits being broken?
>>
No. 68399 ID: c6ca67

Eye marks and stripy coon-tail things?
Hrm. Could be your opposing opposite noble from He Who Bleeds The Written Word, who came in and got touched by the hero soul.
We did spend more than a bit of Titan's will on increasing your ablilities... Now, I'm fuzzy on how Titans work, but what if we basically 'fed' you to the point of needing a noble to manage all your powers?
Wait. That thing...WordBlood, Titan Devas are changed by each other right? That thing looks like you with the hero soul mixed in. Now, here's the important part, What changes have been applied to you from Kairosa and Saulanna?
Kairosa is Time, we might be somehow seeing a potential future form of you.
Also, you reflected your growth with bigger wings, but Kai didn't change at all. Saulanna I can understand not changing, she's not trained up yet, and I think she's akin to a blank slate, but that Kairosa didn't change...Suspicious, if you ask me. I wonder if that thing might have formed from all those things, like unwanted clippings and muck coming together to form some sort of 'scrap' Deva...
Explorer of the Past Stories, or something like that. The forgotten past of Saulanna, your lost memories, the unseen changes to Kairosa, and the Hero Soul's six times discarded powers...
>>
No. 68400 ID: cee89f

>>68395
>"I did hear. But it was... ambiguous, don't you think? Was that a declaration, a promise, or a request?"
............ Don't you know? You're made of communication, if it wanted to get a message across you'd have a better chance of getting the message than we would.

>"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"
... Honestly? No.

It looks draconic, but you told us many supernatural beings take such a form because it's comfortable. But you-

... Hold it, i just thought of something.

As others have said, that thing looks like... well, a chimera-ish you (except without the text on your scales). You said all devas influence each other to a degree. The Hero's soul is behaving as a deva. We know that a Moon Hero who changes too much becomes a chimera, because of the Wyld taint in our hero's soul. Now, you said Wyld taint on it's own would do nothing to a full-grown titan. But if the Hero's soul is influencing you like a Deva, is it possible it could be doing something to you with that and this is Kairosa's influence giving us warning?

IE, could that be you?

Personally I don't think so but it's an alarming enough question to pose.
>>
No. 68401 ID: c6319f

This... could be the Hero Soul manifesting as a Deva, or the beginning of it doing so.

It has the Raccoon totem marks, plus a whole whackload of other animal bits though less prominently, which could be forms or shapes it has picked up during its previous use.

There is a tinge of something like the Wyld that reminds you of what you felt on the Hero Soul.

>>/quest/497435
>distant echo of a scream of anguish. I feel a pain, not mine, but not totally removed.
He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word's death.
>Wrongness. Awareness of wrongness. A tension, of balance needing to be restored. Destruction.
The damage the death of the Titans caused creation.

I think it is highly likely that this being is a deva tightly linked to the Hero Soul. Either being born from it. Or being the result of the beginning of a transformation. Or something. And that it feels remorse for the death of the Titans its self/source took place in causing.
>>
No. 68402 ID: ce346f

Looks like a dragon made of traits partly close to the outer form. Those traits come from the Hero Soul.

Related to Wyld Taint, but not.

Hmm...

Just before her episode, Time suggested that the Hero Soul should be able to handle Wyld Taint, but couldn't. She said there was a reason why this was so. Perhaps this entity represents the reason.

Or again, going off the color, perhaps this entity is an original part of this Moon Hero/Titan, like Wordblood and the Hero Soul.

Would Worldreading do anything for your ability to notice and understand it?
>>
No. 68404 ID: 3bad4c

Perhaps the dying and injured titans unleashed their rage upon the Exaltation Shards?

This is an echo of their pain and anger. I imagine it's fairly evenly distributed, perhaps you're only seeing the manifestation from HWBTUW because you're on the same wavelength, or perhaps any ancient titanic deva could see the same.

There might be dozens of these things you can't even see, all of them working to subvert any Hero. Or maybe it's just the one manifestation per shard.

Except in this place, you're not the enemy. It can't act against you. This echo of HWBTUW is your first and only connection to the titan that was. Any chance you could trace it back to its source?

Perhaps its afraid of you because of what you could discover if you found it.
>>
No. 68405 ID: 0909a0

>>68395
wait, wtf!?
Saulanna's raccoon strokes under the eyes and tentacles/tail, Kai's middle eye, your dragon stuff.

this thing is a combination of ALL THREE OF YOU.
wtf does that even mean? what did the hero soul do!?
>>
No. 68406 ID: fd17e8

Oh fuck, it's the Great Curse.
>>
No. 68409 ID: d1efde

>>68395
The Hero soul is supposed to be able to adapt to becoming part of a Titan if I recall. Could it be attempting to copy you? Using you as an example for how to be a deva?

Or here's an idea. According to Kairosa the first and second incarnations of this particular soul were during the war. The second apparently killed many devas including Lords. She also said the soul was exposed to stealth magic for so long that it actually carries stealth with it, which could explain why it's so hard to perceive. What are the chances this HS was directly involved in bringing down He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word? That it killed one of your fellow devas, maybe consumed the heart if that's possible?
>>
No. 68411 ID: d6ef5d

>The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?
I suppose now that you mention it, the stripping and eyeshadows do resemble Saulanna's own totem marks. And the chaotic shapeshifting this thing seems to be doing might speak some connection to the hero's soul as well.

But it also looks very draconic- and like you. It even sprouted wings and feathers in the last moments we saw it. Your descriptions of it come back to themes we associate with you (and/or he who bleeds)- your element, the hiss of acid, a description full of sounds, and the feelings towards you.

So... it's something connected to the exaltation, and to you? The hero's soul reacting to you? Some kind of mirror or opposite of yourself? An attempt to understand or oppose you and/or your influence in it's host? The hero's soul adapting to the titan-ness badly? An unplanned birth of annother Deva?
>>
No. 68412 ID: cee89f

>Hrm. Could be your opposing opposite noble from He Who Bleeds The Written Word, who came in and got touched by the hero soul.
>This echo of HWBTUW
Guys, he JUST SAID that it's not any part of He Who Bleeds and that he would know if it was.
>>
No. 68413 ID: 32c1ec

>>68395

>"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"

Actually, yeah. Even if all three of the Devas exist separate from one another, the fact remains that most Titans- such as Malfeas, The Ebon Dragon, etc- form an amalgam, titanic form that's greater than the sum of its parts. Notice the components. Its eyes and body have similar markings to Saulanna's. Its form is largely draconic or serpentine, perhaps owing to Wordblood. Furthermore, all those mouths. I can think of two possibilities, then.

One: It's a representation of the current titanic form, still twisted and deformed for some strange reason.

Two: It's a possibility- an echo from the future, of what Saulanna could become if she would be twisted by the power of the Wyld, someday. The power it represents would have allowed Saulanna to suppress and delay her emotional response- emotional control does seem to be a Wyld Thing.

However, and this is the one that might be most likely. When the Hero Souls were first forged, they contained the ability to 'push off' mental influence into their limit track. They could use this power to resist the Primordials, in canon. This capability is the same one that the dying titans twisted into the existing Limit Track, via the Great Curse.

A Lunar that accumulates too much permanent limit /becomes/ a chimera- a creature that this thing resembles.

Because of the fragmented nature of Saulanna's existance, maybe the taint left by fallen titans on her soul has melded with the possibility of chimeric transformation to produce an independent entity. One that is born of the hero soul, and of titanic influence. This one here seems the most likely.

So we might just have run into an incarnation of the Great Curse. What do we do about this?

I personally think it needs a hug.
>>
No. 68414 ID: d6ef5d

Oh, yeah. That's another thing to note, Wordblood. This thing seems to be the source of the Emotions Bottle upgrade available to Saulanna. Does the fact it's capable of that give any insight to its nature?
>>
No. 68415 ID: 4a328b

Is it our totem, the noble racoon?
>>
No. 68416 ID: 719e49

Us...but monstrous?
Oh.
Our Shadow opposite, we're in the shadowlands, and we've been there for long enough.
I'm guessing that the opposite dislikes WordBlood because Understanding brings people together, and unites them, or because as an Aide, WordBlood won't do anything to take charge, while the opposite will not be happy if it has to bow to another...Or it could just view WordBlood's submission as agreeing to be Saulanna's slave, but I doubt that.
Any of that sound right to you, WordBlood?
>>
No. 68417 ID: 4a328b

The hero soul is supposed to adapt...maybe it's becoming a deva? It already acted like one during Kairosa's creation, right?
>>
No. 68418 ID: 520816

>>68395
What do we do if this is some version of the Great Curse and/or the Hero Soul? Well, WB's strength is in communication, and Saulanna's overall theme/Heart's Desire so far has been something like "remain free, learn, gain friends and followers". So, a friendly approach to this thing might actually work.

Wordblood: How about formally greeting it and offering it recognition as a Deva? Or even offering to let it stay hidden from the others for now, if it opens up to you?

This might be a bad idea, but how about encouraging Saulanna to buy that emotion power it's offering? The power itself sounds foolish to use in most cases, but having it could make it easier to interact with the new "deva". If nothing else, it would be informative to see the *second* power it offers if Saulanna buys the first. Something lying-related? Dragon. Something shapeshifting-related? Hero Soul/Curse. Metal-related? Saulanna is secretly an Alchemical. =)
>>
No. 68419 ID: 520816

>>68395
What do we do if this is some version of the Great Curse and/or the Hero Soul? Well, WB's strength is in communication, and Saulanna's overall theme/Heart's Desire so far has been something like "remain free, learn, gain friends and followers". So, a friendly approach to this thing might actually work.

Wordblood: How about formally greeting it and offering it recognition as a Deva? Or even offering to let it stay hidden from the others for now, if it opens up to you?

This might be a bad idea, but how about encouraging Saulanna to buy that emotion power it's offering? The power itself sounds foolish to use in most cases, but having it could make it easier to interact with the new "deva". If nothing else, it would be informative to see the *second* power it offers if Saulanna buys the first. Something lying-related? Dragon. Something shapeshifting-related? Hero Soul/Curse. Metal-related? Saulanna is secretly an Alchemical. (They're robots in disguise, you know.) =)
>>
No. 68426 ID: 3bad4c

>>68412
You're like a little tantrum thrower, and my interpretation has not changed.
>>
No. 68429 ID: 5d121c

Seems like the, er, let's say the "wrongness" in the hero soul that Kairosa discovered.
>>
No. 68433 ID: f2c20c

>>68395
...oh god. It's a raccoon/dragon/chaosthing.

It's the Hero Soul, adapting to being part of a Titan and thus becoming more draconic apparently, but having lots of trouble with the adaptation due to whatever it was that Kairosa found. It's ashamed to be part of a titan? Or ashamed that it's having so much trouble adapting to you? Or ashamed that it KILLED you? Wouldn't it be a terrible coincidence if this was the Hero Soul of the Lunar responsible for ripping HWbtUW apart? It would be like... fate. Samsara.

If this is the Hero Soul creating an aspect of itself more attuned to being part of a Titan, I imagine that the more Devas that Saulanna creates, the more the Hero Soul will adapt, and its form will get freakier and freakier.

On the other hand, maybe it's actually the part of the Hero Soul that's... broken? Maybe this is entirely what Kairosa found, and independent somehow inside the Hero Soul? That would explain why Saulanna's moon abilities seem to come from a separate source than this guy. Yet, it is closely tied with the Hero Soul, and is thus affected by its attempted adaptation to you and her.

In either case we actually need the help of someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls. Which is... Autochthon? Luna, maybe?
>>
No. 68434 ID: 4a328b

>>68433
"Someone whose whole thing was messing with things", maybe?
>>
No. 68435 ID: cee89f

>>68426
... And somehow that invalidates that Wordblood would be able to tell if it was a piece of HWB? Not even gonna try and explain that? Just gonna call me a brat and move on?

'Kay.

>>68433
>In either case we actually need the help of someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls. Which is... Autochthon? Luna, maybe?
The former isn't easily reachable in our current predicament... maybe Luna, but since we're not sure this is from our hero's soul that may very well be Miracle level stuff. And as Luna said we'd need "some serious religion up in here" to get any miracles from her.

The Wyld taint, maybe, but I'm skeptical about this being the hero's soul itself. It's green and (more importantly) appears to be putting one of it's tentacles on the hero's soul itself, as it did with Saulanna and Kairosa, who it was manipulating.
>>
No. 68442 ID: 7f2a1b

>>68395
A series of thoughts occur.

The slithering something from Akatrina happened before the birthing of Kairosa.
Before Kairosa was fully birthed and formed, there seemed to be no real distinction between Saulanna and her Hero Soul in the inner world.
From what I gathered, Wordy's role in the whole shebang was mostly (if not completely) akin to that of a midwife of sorts.

Could the birthing process have... "leaked" somehow, or perhaps provided an opening for the slithering something to do more than it could've if the event had not taken place?

Feel free to ignore my ramblings if any/all the points I'm bringing up seem unlikely/have been refuted already (or for any other reason, I'm not the boss of you).
>>
No. 68452 ID: 858b1f

actually as your shadow, your antithesis, couldn't it be that words are what hurt?
Words bring light to a situation and allow for communication, maybe as your shadow these things are as painful for him as you implied that the opposite would be for you?

/quest/>>454389
>"I... do, also, still have the ability to prevent compulsion by rendering speech meaningless. I don't think it will be useful, however, in this situation. And... I would prefer not to. It hurts me."
>>
No. 68457 ID: 52d91f

>>68406
Agreed. The question is whether or not we can convey OOC knowledge to Wordblood here.

That said, I think you guys have that handled.

...Well, ok, a little help. Wordblood, I've been given to understand that the Dragon's Shadow handed out an "Ultimate Weapon" to his fellow Titans during the war. Think for a bit on what sort of weapons he might have created.
>>
No. 68458 ID: 52d91f

As for why you're not effected Wordblood, you're the only pure Titan soul here. Saulana is an Exalt and Kairosa was created from her, so they would bear the effects of any curse laid down upon the Exalted.
>>
No. 68459 ID: 52d91f
File 136238187993.png - (120.70KB , 600x500 , 135664957849.png )
68459

(I'm not sure how to do color, sorry, but I thought these quotes might be relevant.)

>>480875
>>480876

"Oh... oh no! The war! The fighting! The Titans, they, they had to live out in the chaos for so long and it was so hard and so horrible and all they wanted was to look after each other and their souls and they made the world to be safe, so their souls could be happy and then it all went wroooooong!! The gods betrayed them!! We made them and we gave them life and meaning and they could live with us in here where it's safe and then they made Heroes and they attacked us and hurt us and, and they went in and tore them up from the inside so they could feel their souls dying inside them, they could feel themselves getting weaker, and when they realized they wouldn't be able to bring them back they cried, because they'd failed, they felt so horrible and ashamed and angry and it kept happening, until it was so bad they wanted to die, and they did, but they couldn't, but they were so hurt and so sad, and they hated the gods so much for doing that to them that it was the last thing they could even think and the last thing that bled from their veins and the last breath that they used to, to...!"

"To... damn it! Curse them! Curse them all, idiotic ungrateful little scraps of nothing that wouldn't exist without us! Whine and complain and make speeches to themselves about how righteous they are, like worms crawling under a rock and complaining about how heavy it is when they know nothing about the heat of the sun or the birds that would eat them!! How noble of them to cover how much their freedom cost reality itself, all the gods and the creatures that were murdered just because they were loyal, all the places and the times and the things wiped from existence because of their cursed ignorance!! They can suffer! Any of them with any nobility can rot trying to stall their guilt with toys and drugs and let their fools and villains destroy them all, and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build, again, and then again, and it can keep happening all the way down for ever and ever AND EVE-!!"
>>
No. 68460 ID: 52d91f

Oh, as for ideas as to things we might want to do in the future, I vote for end the Neverborn's torment (assuming the Dragon's Shadow hasn't already handled that anyway).
>>
No. 68461 ID: 17e4f3

>old dis thread reaches critical postcount mass
>open up new dis thread
>new dis thread gets about 200 posts in a week
>>
No. 68463 ID: f2c20c

>>68459
Hey, I didn't notice the green glow around the edges there. I *did* notice that our green mystery soul has eyes exactly matching the red triangle we've been seeing that's affiliated with Titans. I thought that she had tapped into something in the past that was blocking the memory, but perhaps it was the green fellow in the present keeping her from remembering it?

Maybe it IS the personification of whatever's wrong with the Hero Soul, and it doesn't want us to find out what was done to the Hero Soul since fixing the Hero Soul would... probably kill it.

Well, shit.
>>
No. 68464 ID: e3aff6

>actually as your shadow, your antithesis, couldn't it be that words are what hurt?
I am finding that likely. Plenty of us noticed or talked about it, but it only reacted directly to the one that talked to it.
>>
No. 68465 ID: 47a120

>>68369
>Whatever this was, I don't think it's the Dragon's Shadow
>his essence has always had a particular habit of being... infectious, and bleeding outward in ways he doesn't intend.
I wonder if that means that taking the upgrade it offered would have "infected" us with some of his essence as well.
>>
No. 68466 ID: 952246

>>68461
"Critical mass" doesn't refer to postcount, it just meant that the old thread was full of fat people complaining.
>>
No. 68476 ID: 17e4f3

>>68466

as opposed to the new one, which seems to be...

anyway, I don't think speculating about Mr. Hurt's nature will help us here since we'd have to find out for sure to be, well, sure.

it's not like it's doing much except hiding and hurting, so meh, let it.
>>
No. 68478 ID: 47a120

>>68476
which means we should probably go ahead and spend the TW as planned and move on for now. Also WB saying that using clarity with a lower SF means it will fail so... we should really get going with TW production to raise everyone's SF a lot.
>>
No. 68479 ID: f2c20c

Oh, one thing we haven't touched on...

It doesn't look like Kairosa at all, does it? Or maybe that's where it's getting the teeth from?
>>
No. 68480 ID: f2c20c

Oh, and... Wordblood, you've seen how it acts, and what it can do, and how it speaks (poorly). What would you estimate its Soul Force to be?

Do you think... giving it TW to upgrade its Soul Force would help it feel more at ease?
>>
No. 68484 ID: 1c7e1b

Honestly (using too much meta-Exalted knowhow) it reminds me of the Kukla. Mainly the five eyes. I don't see how the stripes remind us of anything. Anyone else think it looks familiar?
>>
No. 68485 ID: 1c7e1b

>>68406
This is the most likely.
>>
No. 68486 ID: f5ad43

Hmm... From all that has been said. Wouldn't the most logical conclusion be that this is an intruding demon lord from the Sphere of Speech.

You know. The Yozi He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word became?
>>
No. 68488 ID: cee89f

>>68486
It would be consistent with both it's color scheme, Wordblood being the only one to sense it and the feelings Wordblood got, but how would it have gotten here? How would it have gotten out of Malfeas on it's own, given what we know of the prison? (Again, this could be lack of exalted knowledge rearing it's ugly head) And if it didn't do so on it's own, who would've planted it into us? Akatrina? Somehow I doubt a servant of DS would have access to one of the Sphere's devas. Mostly because DS and Ebon Dragon were both massive pricks =/
>>
No. 68494 ID: c698e5

Could it be some kind of 'weird time shit'? Like, an echo of the future Saulanna that could be, or the you that could happen, or something? That's the thought I get.
>>
No. 68495 ID: 47a120

>>68486
only the titans who surrendered and were imprisoned (after some soul mutilation) became yozis. The dead titans are... I think they are the neverborn but not sure...

However, WB did specify that the other titans would try to repair the damage... so what if they rebuilt the titan in such a way that discarded WB as he had suggested, and then THAT rebuilt titan was one of those who surrendered?
And to top it all off its "infected" with the essence of shadow because that's how shadow works?
>>
No. 68500 ID: e37912

Random thought: where has our Beast Soul been hiding?
>>
No. 68501 ID: feb8ad

>>68486
That thing doesn't look like Elloge, Sphere of Speech.

>Outwardly, Elloge is invisible unless something should enter the sphere of her being, upon which onlookers will see them turn into whispering glyphs displayed in the air. Her interior is strange and bizarre to those from more physical realms, wherein features of linguistics and language take on an existence of their own.

Not at all.
>>
No. 68502 ID: f5ad43

And Erembour certainly doesn't look like a dragon, while Ligier is most certainly not a city. I said a demon lord (local terminology for 3rd circles. I guess Lord Demon would be more appropriate), not the Yozi itself.

Demons can leave Malfeas when certain conditions are met. The Yozis themselves can't leave, but even their highest souls can escape hell given the right circunstances.

Given all of Wordblood's feelings on the matter, I really can't brush aside the idea that this is what He Who Bleeds became, which is, yes, The Sphere of Speech. Not a neverborn.
>>
No. 68503 ID: cee89f

>>68501
Exalted canon is (apparently) a no-no.

<--- Regularly attempts to use Exalted canon he only barely understands.

>>68502
>Demons can leave Malfeas when certain conditions are met. The Yozis themselves can't leave, but even their highest souls can escape hell given the right circunstances.

Okay... So maybe DS found out about Wordblood before it was grafted on and told Elloge it's location in exchange for something? But when would DS have figured it out, and since only the Underworld's time flows according to his will Elloge would've had to have heard about it in the last day or so...?
>>
No. 68504 ID: 9db85e

Is it possible this creature is an aspect of the great curse? The shadow of the titans as it had fallen onto the Lunar Exaltation?
>>
No. 68505 ID: f2c20c

If we're not supposed to use Exalted canon, then the logical thing to do is to use only what we've learned in the quest.

It's NOT the Dragon's Shadow, and it's NOT part of Wordblood or the Titan Wordblood came from. That means it's something directly related to either the Hero Soul or Saulanna.

I'm pretty sure it's related to the Hero Soul, since we've found out there's something broken in it, AND it's turning GREEN.
>>
No. 68506 ID: f5898d

I wonder if Saulanna has a *solar* mate?
>>
No. 68507 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68506
For some reason Abyssals and Infernals are still referred to as 'solar mates' despite not being solars anymore, and every Lunar got a Solar bondmate, so yeah.

(... I don't get it either, maybe it's just the people I talk to)

>>68505
Kairosa mentioned a curse. Maybe Wordblood is largely immune because he isn't being influenced by the Hero's soul to the same degree as Kai and Saul? Remember, Kairosa had the Moon Soul influence her birth and Saulanna originally had it grafted directly onto her soul.

>>68504
It's possible, and makes some sense. The Great Curse would try to hide itself (no point in making someone succumb to their own virtues or lack thereof if they can see and prevent it), and Wordblood is the only one here who hasn't had the Hero's soul's influence on him. Or at least not to the degree that Kai and Saulanna did.

... Honestly, I'm lost here. If I had to answer at gunpoint, I'd say great curse, but honestly even that feels a little off. It doesn't really explain why Wordblood feels some familiarity or the various feelings he's getting from it.
>>
No. 68508 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68507
>Wrong password
... I feel i should clarify: I do NOT mean Wordblood isn't being influenced by the hero's soul - just that it hasn't touched him as strongly as it's touched Saulanna and Kairosa, both of whom had their entire mind, body and worldview directly shaped by the soul (Saulanna's entire personality [and metaphysical state, apparently] was an amnesiac with a hero's soul at the start of this quest, and the Soul directly participated in Kairosa's creation)
>>
No. 68509 ID: f2c20c

>>68507
Kairosa didn't mention a curse. She went from trying to remember what happened to the Hero Soul to "curse them! GRR!" It COULD be interpreted as the same sentence, but only coincidentally.
>>
No. 68512 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68509
Not that - I concede that could just be coincidence (heck, first time i read it I thought it was - I'd forgotten the great curse for some reason) but during the rant she mentions the curse's effects... and there was one thing before, now that i look back again.

>There's something else. There was something else. Some other problem. Let me think...

(Referring to why the Wyld taint wasn't adapted to by the hero's soul)

>... and let their fools and villains destroy them all, and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build..."

ie, that they wanted to make the Heroes betray their gods.

Admittedly, this could also be interpreted as just the Titans screaming in rage, but considering that we know Titans influence reality whether they want to or not and Kairosa implied that many (if not all) titans felt that way, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that they did something, even if we don't know what the effect of what they did /is/.
>>
No. 68516 ID: 77cb34

Bah, plot happenings in questdis? You're making HalfTangible fifteen times harder to ignore. (It's bad for my blood pressure, the publicly shared email address and... less than stunning brilliance makes me want to sign him up for a billion years' worth of gay porn.)

Anyway! Might be on to something in thinking that words hurt it. Could you try communicating with it through a more symbolic representation? It's not exactly your purview, but perhaps the rudiments of pre-language will inspire a different response.
>>
No. 68517 ID: cee89f

>>68516
>(It's bad for my blood pressure, the publicly shared email address and... less than stunning brilliance makes me want to sign him up for a billion years' worth of gay porn.)
Awwwwwwwww, who'sa cute little twoll! You are! You are! *rattlerattlerattle*
[/joking]
Just fyi: once your father calls you a "mass murderer waiting to happen" you get dulled to the opinions of others. You're gonna have to try harder.

Unrelated: why didn't anyone just TELL me the email was annoying? I'd have deleted it =/
>>
No. 68539 ID: a12965

Perhaps this being might be present because of the process Peregrin used in attaching wordblood to Saulanna? We know so little about that yet, we shouldn't overlook the possibility. The dragons shadow is his master, after all. Even if he had no intent to he might have gotten in that way.
>>
No. 68544 ID: 77cb34

Hmm, if we have our very own Cthonic Baara, I'm going to be a happy man. (For reference, that being the horrible abomination other-THING that Luna can whip out when shit's really gotten real.)

>>68517
>I don't care what anybody else thinks!

>But if this annoys so much as one person I'll change it right away!

hahahaha k
>>
No. 68545 ID: 8b39b2

Now that the point of familiarity has been brought up, and people talking about raccoon imagery what with the stryped and all, could it be possible that this is the portion of Saulannas Lunar exaltation that was warped by their long stay in chaos itself?
If so, then we could beat the whole needing lunar tatoos to survive as a viable, not-crazy monstrosity by somehow binding this thing ourselves.

but that doesnt explain its penchant for hiding, nor the bottling that it does with our emotions and memories.
>>
No. 68546 ID: cee89f

>>68544
That doesn't count! It's fine when I contradict myself, but nobody can be a hypocrite except for me!

...

Self deprecating joke aside, I said i was dulled to the opinions of others, not that I didn't care at all :P

>>68539
Maybe, but the stripes kinda make that iffy.

>>68545
>If so, then we could beat the whole needing lunar tatoos to survive as a viable, not-crazy monstrosity by somehow binding this thing ourselves.
We're a titan - we'll eventually be immune anyway. That's why we didn't want the Lunar tattoos - they either wouldn't work at all or broadcast our identity as a Titan, which is something we're trying to keep secret at the moment.

>but that doesnt explain its penchant for hiding, nor the bottling that it does with our emotions and memories.
The Wyld, as explained in Lunar quest, is composed entirely of potentiality but no actuality.

Possibility: It's getting a form because of it's close proximity to a titan, but since it's still largely potential it can't be directly seen, and it's hiding because those in the Wyld are utterly sickened by the idea of having one constant form.

(...Considering how many posts i've made in the discussion thread over the last 2 days, I think I'll shut up for a while.)
>>
No. 68547 ID: 4a328b

Can we like, bring some moonsilver into our inner world and tattoo this entity instead of ourselves? Would that even do anything?
>>
No. 68553 ID: 9f5b78

>>68503
>Exalted canon is (apparently) a no-no.

>>55916
>The Titan Fragment which became Wordblood is formed from what remained in Creation of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word, the rest of whom regenerated into Elloge, the Sphere of Speech, yes.
>>
No. 68555 ID: cee89f

>>68553
That's Jukashi's "word of god", not Exalted canon. We know where Wordblood comes from but the appearance of Elloge has not been brought up here. (heck, Wordblood, Kairosa and Saulanna wouldn't know what became of HWB either)

... Okay, this time, shutting up for real.
>>
No. 68557 ID: beeca1

As far as I can tell, most everything prior to the Dragon's rebellion is standard Exalted canon. Since then, though, anything goes.
>>
No. 68559 ID: 3dd384

>>68406
Makes sense.

Through a Titan's soul hierarchy, her nature is laid bare.

The death-curse of the slain Titans... if it's real, it's got to be intertwined with the nature of the Heroes of the Gods. It'd be an integral part of who she is, and metaphysically separate from the themes espoused by the Hero Soul itself.

Now that she has a soul hierarchy proper, why wouldn't it be a Noble Soul of its own?

Of course, in that case, this poor thing, this manifestation of hurt and betrayal and the unfairness of everything that's happened from the revolution onward... it's on Team Rockblossom as much as the rest of us, and it starts to get a little weird to treat it as something to excise at all costs.

What a pickle.
>>
No. 68560 ID: 3dd384

>>68557
We can't assume anything. Our reference material makes out the Ebon Dragon to be a pointless dick, who wasn't even changed that much when they imprisoned him. Far cry from "he always used to do this kind of thing - like a prank but with a lesson". At this point, we have to entertain the possibility that any deep dark secret we think we have is seriously inaccurate to the world that Saulanna and Friends inhabit.

Heck, who knows. Maybe the Great Curse doesn't even real, and Kairosa's reaction to the "flaw" in the Lunar Exaltation was just a coincidence!
>>
No. 68561 ID: 3dd384

>>68559
Uh, actually, actionable question here.

Wordblood, for a "natural born" Titan like the ones you used to know, would it be unusual for them to have a Noble Soul or two whose nature was sort of cross-purposes with their progenitor? Or is that sort of thing normal?
>>
No. 68563 ID: 9f5b78

>>68555
>We know where Wordblood comes from but the appearance of Elloge has not been brought up here.

>>>55916
>the Sphere of Speech
>Sphere

Seems very unlikely that Elloge's appearance is that different then it is in Exalted. I don't necessarily think that's anything to go on regarding the appearance of her Demon's, as Elloge has no canon ones, but I think it's pretty safe to assume The Sphere of Speech looks more or less as she's described in normal Exalted.

On a somewhat unrelated note, looking through things on Elloge, I found something in Dreams of The First Age that I had forgotten. A city was made from the... Blood/Words of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word once he fell. If we do search out lost fragments of He Who Bleeds, the ruins of Lodros are the most likely place for us to end up.
>>
No. 68567 ID: 3dd384

Color reference:
Wordblood - d50000
Kairosa - a600dc
Moon Soul - 004dda
??? - 10a500
>>
No. 68568 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/498224
not at her current production levels.
If we invest in her production abilities then she could; but there is strong opposition to that, as well as strong opposition to eating more ghosts. a bit of a catch22
>>
No. 68569 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/498215
I know.
My point is that people are making suggestions in quest and yet jukashi's last post in quest linked to a questdis post which actually continued right off where the quest left and seems to actually contain plot development by having WB talking to us there. It SEEMS to me like the quest portion is on hold while we are actually running part of the quest on questdis now.
>>
No. 68571 ID: 370c40

>>68569
We might actually be running both simultaneously.
So we suggest something for Kairosa and Saulanna to do while Wordblood figures things out in here.
>>
No. 68572 ID: f2c20c

>>68569
It's not on hold. We're SUPPOSED to be telling Saulanna to do unimportant, non-major things that will occupy her time while Wordblood figures out what's going on.

WHICH MEANS NOT SPENDING TW ON SHIT YOU DUNCE.
>>
No. 68574 ID: cee89f

>>68557
We-
>>68560
... That. Jukashi has said that Lunar Quest is an altered exalted setting changed in many ways - the sun, for instance, is no longer a battleship/mecha (otherwise the rise of the red sun and her heroes would have to answer where she got her massive ship)

>Heck, who knows. Maybe the Great Curse doesn't even real, and Kairosa's reaction to the "flaw" in the Lunar Exaltation was just a coincidence!

Alternatively, the Great Curse has a completely different effect.

>>68563
We cannot assume anything from Exalted still applies here. We've been asked not to and even if we could (imho, more importantly) it's bad form to use metaknowledge to your advantage like that. All characters currently there don't know what Elloge looks like, so they can't use that knowledge. And neither should we.

>>68568
>>68569
Read it again. We're supposed to be discussing things with Wordblood here while occupying Saulanna's time with mundane, meaningless tasks that cost no TW, since we're not sure using it is safe and we might need the Will.

>>68572
... Isn't allcaps yelling MY job?

>>68567
kthx
>>
No. 68575 ID: 3dd384

>>68568
I wish we had the luxury of ramping up TW as soon as possible, but we were totally styled on in the library and we needed to address that. But I think it's okay. In nine days from now, we'll be right where we would have been had we gone with your plan from the beginning.

Like I said - all Kairosa needs is some time.
>>
No. 68576 ID: 3dd384
File 136258362556.jpg - (57.98KB , 750x500 , _tmp.jpg )
68576

>>68574
Kairosa's reaction makes it sound like it might be a samsara thing. Setting a cycle of revolution and dissipation as the default way for things to go with Heroes.
>>
No. 68578 ID: 9f5b78

>>68574
>We cannot assume anything from Exalted still applies here. We've been asked not to and even if we could (imho, more importantly) it's bad form to use metaknowledge to your advantage like that. All characters currently there don't know what Elloge looks like, so they can't use that knowledge. And neither should we.

I did say the knowledge was useless to us anyway, as how a Yozi looks and how it's Demon's look aren't always linked and Elloge has no canon Demon's. And yes, none of the characters know how Elloge looks, and they also don't know that He Who Bleeds became Elloge. So useless information all around. I'm just saying that it's very unlikely that Elloge doesn't look more or less the same as she does in normal Exalted given that Jukashi has said He Who Bleeds became Elloge the Sphere of Speech. If an author clarifies that in this version Character A becomes Character B just like in normal Exalted, Character B looking completely different, especially when her Title which is referenced in the clarification is a physical descriptor? Well that's very unlikely.
>>
No. 68580 ID: 47a120

>>68572
1. Meta as fuck
2. How was I supposed to figure that out?
3. Ok, changed my quest post to reflect this
>>
No. 68581 ID: 47a120

>>68575
If we do not spend the 3TW now to buy Generation 3 then it will take us 3 weeks to generate them (with allocating 5 motes AND predetermining what they are used for).
After those 3 weeks we would go from 1/week to 1/day and would have to spend to upgrade saullan SF, her SF, and then spend 4TW to upgrade generation again. Also WB because people don't want to hurt his feelings.

I am saying "never eat another ghost" and "don't spend any TW on generation" are mutually exclusive goals.
My personal preference is to not spend any TW on generation and instead keep on eating ghosts. However people are so ridiculously opposed to it (like you are) that I instead suggested spending on TW generation and never having to eat another ghost... only to find out people are equally opposed to that. Hence the catch 22.
>>
No. 68582 ID: c59939

>>68581
I am pro "eat ghosts" and "Get TW generation out the ass down the road, then continue eating occasional ghosts"
>>
No. 68585 ID: 7f2a1b

Perhaps we should try communicating with the hiding green again, only this time, with feelings, concepts, and ideas instead of words?
>>
No. 68588 ID: 9f5b78

>>68580
>2. How was I supposed to figure that out?

From this
>>/quest/497431
It's very, very clear.
>>
No. 68590 ID: cee89f

>>68575
>Like I said - all Kairosa needs is some time.
I get it! =D

>>68576
>Setting a cycle of revolution and dissipation as the default way for things to go with Heroes.
Sounds like it. Depending on how exactly they decided to do that, it could mean any number of things: it could work like the Great Curse in exalted, or just influencing samsara to work harder on betrayal.

>>68578
... If you don't think we can use that knowledge then why bring Elloge's appearance up?

>>68581
The problem with spending Will on generation is the fact that we have Akatrina and the two Moon Heroes to deal with.

Personally I think we should spend our current Will on winning our current social predicament. Later, we can eat the ghosts, use TW on generation, then generate Will to release them. It's more like imprisonment than eating that way.

>>68585
I like this idea.
>>
No. 68591 ID: 9f5b78

>>68590
>... If you don't think we can use that knowledge then why bring Elloge's appearance up?

Not the guy who brought it up originally. Just felt that "Can't trust Canon knowledge" didn't really apply in this situation due to previous Word of God. The knowledge may not be relevant in this situation, but it's probably pretty solid ground for speculation in other areas(Such as Ruins of Lodros being a future place we might find He Who Bleeds fragments) There's honestly so little Canon information regarding Elloge that metagaming with it's next to impossible, but speculation with a decently solid base can be fun.
>>
No. 68600 ID: 47a120

>>68590
>I think we should spend our current Will on winning our current social predicament. Later, we can eat the ghosts, use TW on generation, then generate Will to release them. It's more like imprisonment than eating that way.

A wise course of action that has been thought out and is actually consistent with the rules of the quest. Although it does bear the risk of fucking us over if we get kidnapped by the lunars since we wont be able to eat more ghosts then... Although that can be eliminated by having 3x1TW abilities purchased now (since K can unspend 1TW abilities at the moment and redirect that TW to generation if this does come to pass).

This plan of yours is one of several I am willing to support. However it appears to me that even the "temporarily eat them" route is rife with strife of those who oppose the issue. Thus I will _only_ be willing to support it if it is implemented as a whole rather then in steps, as steps will result in falling into the catch22. The first step (spend nothing on generation) will come to pass, and when the second step of your plan needs to be enacted (eat a bunch of ghosts) it will be vetoed and we will end up screwed.

This is a meta issue but it is a significant one and a flaw that will ruin uis. Thus I find it safer to just spend the 3TW on upgrading generation from 1/week to 1/day now and then IMMEDIATELY go out to eat more ghosts (either permanently or with intent to undo later)
>>
No. 68602 ID: cee89f

>>68600
One possibility to avoid that problem is to forego spending entirely for the moment, then going to find the other ghosts to eat.

This, unfortunately, is probably not a popular option.
>>
No. 68605 ID: 47a120

>>68602
that is a very good point. We should do that. spending on hold while we hunt the other slavers
>>
No. 68608 ID: 370c40

>>68605
I actually do like that option, because even if we don't want to eat all of them, we still don't want them running around free. The slave trade is a bad thing!
>>
No. 68609 ID: 3dd384

>>68581
>>68600
I totally agree that Will Generation 3 is essential at this stage, if we're not eating ghosts. But...
>>/quest/495847
>Saulanna decides to get the Will Generation upgrade and set it to her own Soul Force, for 3 TW
It's the #1 item in Saulanna's budget right now, and we've got no reason to think the budget is changing. So unless something happens, I'm considering it to be a given that once this scene is over we'll be generating at 1/day speeds.
>>
No. 68613 ID: 7991f1

uhhh... where's Gevin at?
>>
No. 68614 ID: 370c40

>>68613
somewhere in the village or something???
Supposedly he's supposed to be laying low.
>>
No. 68615 ID: 47a120

>>68609
Its not her #1 priority but rather then only decided expense. Everyone agreed to raise SF3 for everyone so we did that. that left us 10 points.
People then argued various ways to spend those 10 points. I and several others wanted to put all 10 into production. Most wanted to put 0 and put all 10 in social.
Based on various factors the compromise figure was set at 3 production 7 social, 3 production can only be spent one way but the 7 social can be spent in myriad ways which we have been discussing the specifics of.
>>
No. 68630 ID: 76b151

>>68615
honestly I still disagree with any TW generation at this point.
>>
No. 68633 ID: f7a438

>>68630


I strongly disagree with your disagreement

everything costs TW we should get a fuckton of it
>>
No. 68634 ID: d6ef5d

>>68633
I strong disagree with your disagreement with his disagreement. :V

We can't afford to invest in production just because of the meta-reason that a few people are afraid of talking about ghosts later. We need to be able to cope with the problems that face us now- which means spending TW on things we can use.
>>
No. 68638 ID: cee89f

>>68633
i think he means upgrading generation.

>>68634
I strongly disagree with your disagreement with his disagreement with the other guy's disagreement. Not because I disagree, just because it's getting hard to say.

Fact is: A) we need social abilities NOW. B) we're gonna need generation LATER. C) We're gonna need ghosts to fulfill both of these.

There's really no way to get around eating more ghosts. Even if we get 1W/day generation now, the Lunars aren't going to let us stay another night. Akatrina will probably try to do whatever she's here to do before morning. Either way, defending ourselves properly means OMNOMNOM.

So let's stop wasting time. We can either A) put a complete freeze on spending until we get the ghosts (which has the added benefit of allowing us to buy upgrades as we need them) or B) buy our social upgrades, find ghosts to imprison for our generation upgrades, and release the ghosts when we have the TW.
>>
No. 68651 ID: 3dd384

The more I think about it, the more I realize I didn't really think through the implications of being able to un-eat ghosts.

There's a huge gap in my contact with this Quest. I stopped reading early in Chapter 2, and only came back very recently, when the final TW vote was going on. I was still very much carrying over the moral calculations from Chapter 1, where eating a ghost meant, probably, an end to their existence as a person. I didn't want that - still don't.

But, okay, if you can eat them, and then increase production capabilities, and then use the dividends to spit them back up... I can't see how that's any less moral than leaving them locked up in library crystals.

I mean, I'm still very much apprehensive about spending TW 100% on current needs, because if we get into that mode we'll never actually get around to making our TW production sustainable, and sooner or later we'll either have to split up with Peregrin for a while, or he'll run out of acceptable targets to feed us (if we have a better fate to offer a ghost than temporary use as a legend battery, the choice to use them as such becomes morally fraught again). If we want to be able to act autonomously, ramping up Will Generation is vital, and the longer we wait to do it the more effort we'll need to waste dealing with the troubles of today.

Buuuuut... I think I'm okay with chewing on ghosts now, provided there's no better option for what to do with them, and provided that we're laying the groundwork for a future where that well has run dry.

(BTW: Wordblood, my apologies for continuing this rehash argument. Just say the word and we can get back to deciding what to do about Hurty Green.)
>>
No. 68652 ID: 3dd384

>>68638
We do not need every last drop of TW to deal with this situation. Sure, I wouldn't have chosen quite this loadout - there's things I wanted *coughbondofunderstandingcough* and didn't get, too. But 7/10 of our TW are going to Social Combat stuff, so I'd say even if we don't spend the remaining 3 for further boosts, we'll be going into the inevitable rematch with a significant buff.

I think we'll be okay.
>>
No. 68653 ID: 76b151

>>68652
IMO we do need every drop of TW for our situation. Remember we aren't just facing a single opponant. We're facing 3. And these aren't newborns like ourselves. They have conviction that they are in the right and a heart's desire. We don't. All we have is a vague notion of being free which isn't enough. We were losing badly which was why we went to eat these souls and gain Kairosa in the first place. Placing some of the TW we gained aside for later is foolish.
>>
No. 68655 ID: 3dd384

>>68653
I made a long post, but then I realized I was sort of straying from the most important point.

If you had those 3TW back, what would you spend them on?
>>
No. 68656 ID: 76b151

Wordblood's World Reading 3.

That or Territoriality, Beauty and Bond of Understanding.

World Reading 3 allows us to attack an opponents weaker spots while the other hopefully lets us harden ourselves and do joint attacks \ defences with our vassal. With Beauty it also increases the amount of damage we do. Which isn't a bad thing.
>>
No. 68657 ID: 370c40

>>68652
I'm not sure you were paying attention to what happened last time. We were absolutely DESTROYED in social combat. The proposed upgrades will help, but I really really don't want to get forced into talking to Akatrina again without significantly more than that.
>>
No. 68660 ID: 47a120

>>68657
Last time we were destroyed because we tried arguing that the Dragon Shadow is PURE EVIL.
A retarded argument that goes against every fact we know.
We had horribly weak arguments, the opponent had ridiculously strong ones, we had absolutely no conviction, the opponent had massive conviction.

And we weren't destroyed we were slowly defeated. Because remember that every deva gets a turn to counter argue for us.
>>
No. 68661 ID: 370c40

>>68660
No, we were destroyed because Akatrina was throwing around numbers that were at least twice as big as ours, even without using any magic whatsoever. Askalaff even helped against the first attack, and between him and Wordblood it was still less than the damage her first attack did. It only took Akatrina two turns to get us as low as she did, and if she hadn't split her attack she would have got us on the second turn even despite the efforts of Wordblood/Askalaff. We ended up conceding anyways, but we can't choose the topic either. Akatrina can pick whatever dumb thing she wants to talk about and we can't really do anything about it because she has better stats. Things like good arguments help, but they aren't as powerful as magic. Which is my point, we aren't prepared to take her on even with the upgrades. So we need to eat some more ghosts and find a better strategy so that things can actually go halfway in our favor this time around.
>>
No. 68665 ID: 47a120

>>68661
Her numbers were big because of the reasons I provided. Some of those were multiplicative.
One's Heart desire for example applies a 2x multiplier to one's numbers.

Quality of argument does so matter, your assertion that she would be able to convince us of things that go against our beliefs with weak arguments because her numbers are bigger are unfounded.
>>
No. 68668 ID: 3dd384

>>68661
Honestly, I think finding a better strategy is the most important thing. That was the idea behind >>67836, although since then I've looked over Akatrina's overwhelming performance and realized that it wouldn't be quite sufficient.

First off: that pesky "sworn truth" bonus. The implication is that she's arguing something that she herself believes. But we don't actually know that - it may technically be true, but she may also still be deceptive within that technicality. World-Reading 2 and Seeing the Tongue Slip solve this. If she's being deceptive, she'll probably be arguing from Dickery and we'll be able to tell. If she's got ulterior motives to her argument, those will be laid bare as well. So the bonus should go away in a lot of the cases where not being convinced would actually threaten our independence.

Second: I think we had a Fear penalty when defending against her arguments. If that gets to be a problem, the Perspective of History can shut it down effortlessly (although it also makes Lord Soul counterarguments less effective due to factoring out Affection).

Third: the moment we actually involved Peregrin, things improved dramatically. He's allowed to use Charms to boost his arguments, and as such was able to attack on Akatrina's level (which, if you recall, none of our TW options really help us with). Via Voice in the Dark we can provide him with all the tactical data that Wordblood's charms are providing us, as well as suggesting arguments to him so that it doesn't look like he's just parroting everything we say (which would tip our hand). And via Wordblood's Blessing, we can Boost him if for whatever reason it looks like he's going to run out of Death Power before Wordblood runs out of Titan Power (or maybe even to Boost him without it being obvious, depending on how obvious Wordblood's Blessing is).

Finally: her attack stats are just higher than our defense stats. Wordblood's Blessing can help here, but honestly? We don't even need TW to fix it. Just ask Peregrin if he can spare a few books on debate and critical thinking, and we can easily supplement our social defense Competencies with a midnight snack. (He might enjoy observing the process, too - I don't recall him ever getting to see us eat a book!)

Again, this probably doesn't get us to parity. But it gets us close, plugs the most obvious holes, and lets us play to our strengths of information management and masterminding (like I was saying back in >>67836). And we've got unique advantages of our own (e.g. having two secret advisers ready to present an alternative, known-friendly perspective on everyone's arguments) to get us the rest of the way.
>>
No. 68669 ID: cee89f

>>68665
Any argument we pose is going to be bogged down by problems, the first being that negotiation is what Akatrina's exaltation /exists/ for. Unless I'm misremembering (and i'm going to go check on this as soon as I'm done), we were entirely unable to change topic from what Akatrina wanted it to be (pretty much forcing us to argue a 'retarded point'), despite the fact that the numbers used were without modifiers. So that means Akatrina is going to be the one to select the topic, and that would mean there is no reason to assume we'll be able to argue what we like.

The fact that Kairosa can heal us too is only going to take us so far if we can't do any damage on our own. Which we can't.

Not sure where you're getting the x2 for heart's desire, but i'll assume you're right. Even if we knew her heart's desire and avoided it, we'd do... what, 8 will damage, tops? (most damage i can remember is 2... *2 for the ordinary damage, 4, *2 for heart's desire direct hit, we get 8.) And that's without her magic. We only won that final conversation because Peregrin and Askalaff ganged up on her.

I'm going to vote we get the upgrades we've talked about, then find and devour the ghosts, buy generation for 1 will/day, and release the ghosts as soon as we have the will to spare.
>>
No. 68671 ID: cee89f

>>68669
>>/quest/454389
Okay, having checked, when we try to change the topic, we go Leadership and Inspiration. We get modifers for emotion and heroism, but I don't remember us getting anything to help with that.
>>
No. 68685 ID: 370c40

>>68665
>Quality of argument does so matter, your assertion that she would be able to convince us of things that go against our beliefs with weak arguments because her numbers are bigger are unfounded.

Quality of argument does matter, but again, not as much as literally centuries of experience in magical persuasion. I'm not sure exactly how old Akatrina is but when she's got years of experience to our one day we should be really careful about overestimating our abilities! And I wouldn't be so certain that her heart's desire has anything to do with The Dragon's Shadow. It could be something that never came up, and if she used it against us she could be throwing effective 28s instead of 14s at us. We shouldn't assume just because she works for the guy that her life revolves completely around him.

Also she's a social caste inverted Solar, so her Exaltation is literally designed to convince people of things that are false with weak(or strong) arguments. The only Exalts better at it would be the Infernals(Hell Heroes) of The Dragon's Shadow himself. And she can learn the same powers those guys use!
>>
No. 68691 ID: 6ab4d5

I agree that while we need better social tools, there is also a hard limit on how much it will help. We're not really purpose built for Social Combat to the same extent as a Moonshadow is.
>>
No. 68692 ID: 370c40

>>68691
Maybe not, but Wordblood sort of is!
>>
No. 68694 ID: 3dd384

A few points.

>>68669
>The fact that Kairosa can heal us too is only going to take us so far if we can't do any damage on our own. Which we can't.
None of the stuff we're buying would help with attacks. None of the stuff on the menu would have helped, except maybe World Reading 4 or a huge Beauty investment.

If we want to convince anyone else of stuff, we need an option other than throwing TW at it. I still think our best bet is to use Peregrin - he's allowed to use argumentative Charms, he's provably trustworthy, and we can collude with him without making it obvious that we're colluding with him.

>>68671
The good news here is that Inspiration is a Talent, and thus enhanceable with Moon Boost. (Bonus: it's not actually trying to convince someone of anything, so doing so is probably allowed under the terms of our pact with Akatrina.)
>>
No. 68697 ID: cee89f

>>68694
That was actually one of the biggest reasons for grabbing Beauty and World Reading, as I recall: see some mal/affections Akatrina has for better manipulation, and beauty to give both our attack and defense a boost.

I was arguing that having a second deva alone would not be enough, as the poster implied - we'd still need to invest in social abilities (probably even before we invest in generation)

Also, having looked back at that conversation, it only SEEMED like a slow defeat at the time. Akatrina played us like a harp. Two or three points and we were in a panic.
>>
No. 68698 ID: 370c40

>>68694
Even if that does let us use our Moon Boost to change topics, I don't see any reason Akatrina wouldn't be allowed to stop us by using her own Boost.
>>
No. 68749 ID: cbc67c
File 136288683648.png - (85.40KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis3.png )
68749

>Saulanna tail's color and eyes marker

"Yes. I know symbolism when I see it. Whatever it is, it is connected somehow to the Hero Soul. Kairosa and our Queen would both indeed be more connected to it than I am, though I still have more of a bond that way than would explain my immunity. This is... interesting."

>reflections of growth

"It might be significant that my wings grew larger while Kairosa remained unchanged; but, on the other hand, it might not. Language evolves over time, while Time itself is eternal, so it might simply be natural that I show changes more quickly. I have already changed a lot since I first awoke to this Age."

>don't you know? [declaration, promise or request]

"Not if it didn't know what it intended, itself. Or if it intended all of them."

>could that be you?
>part of you

"As I said: no. It's all about the Element, you understand? It's not made from what I am made of, or of anything related to it. How do I explain... if a Titan is like an orchestra playing a song, then I am a particular instrument. My nobles and my commoners would be like the melodies and the notes that I play. Whatever this is, it's a different instrument. It's not even the same type of instrument. I admit that for a moment it did look like me, as if it were trying to imitate my appearance; but even for the Dragon's Shadow, who has the particular ability to imitate others in his fashion, that would simply be like taking the music written for a harp and playing it on a saxophone. To extend the metaphor."

>related to the wyld taint
>the rage of the dying Titans
>an echo of their pain and anger
>taint left by fallen titans

"It's... possible."

"Curses are serious business, and death-curses truly dire. I never knew any Titans to really die, myself, but theoretically, if it happened... with a death by treachery, especially... yes, that would be a truly terrible Curse. Goodness. It was bad enough considering the tracks such metaphysical parricide would have left on samsara. Though I would have expected such a malediction to have been directed at the gods, rather than their instruments. Odd. But that would explain Kairosa's outburst and memory trouble. Hmm. Kairosa... she said three of this Hero Soul's incarnations had been in the war, one of which was destroyed. And that a later incarnation had the taste of the imprisoned Titans upon it. So even without a curse... If some malefic Titanic trace had been left on the Hero Soul, bent on vengeance, it would have exploited existing flaws - the gap left between the knowledge of Autochthon and Gaia. And if it were bent on corrupting or subverting the Soul's purpose, it would have done so by pushing, empowering certain facets of its identity past the others: throwing off the balance of powers. Moon Heroes... shapeshifters, graced through animal totems... could well become more beastial than intended, come to change shape too easily. With energy from the Wyld to put to use... Yes... this is looking very likely."

"But, if such a force lingered on our Hero Soul when our Titan powers began to grow...? We still aren't at one hundred percent efficiency with our soul consumption. The excess power might not all have been venting through our body's Soul Fire. An existing scrap of Titanic will-energy might absorb such power in passing, reacting to the same type of essence that birthed it, and use it to become more complete, to grow. It would be a feeble half-thing at first, like the weakest of gods, hardly intelligent, unable to consider anything besides its Purpose; it would seek to become whole, to change into something more stable, to become..."

"... to become a deva."

"Oh dear."


>get help
>someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls

"Autochthon or Gaia would be the best options. Gaia seems to have left the world, but we might be able to contact one of her Lords, the Dragons, if we were willing to brave the Elemental Poles. Sadly, the only ones with Dragons who are still awake are all rather hostile to beings of flesh and blood. Or of anything that isn't that particular element, really. The memories we've picked up are suggestive of Autochthon being somehow accessible, but almost on the other side of the world, and what we know is quite lacking. And... strange. I'm not sure he would be a very wise choice to ask for help in the first place. He is a machine, and a creator of machines, and he might see us as merely a device to be fixed. Or worse, as raw materials to be crafted. The gods surely can't help, or they would have done something already."

"Aside those choices... well... I don't know exactly how much help he could be, but... if the Dragon's Shadow is the Dragon's Shadow, close enough to the one I knew to have the same name, then his Ruler is
Elerele, the Reflection of What Darkness Sees, also known as the Black Mirror. And that deva has the particular ability to reveal things that are hidden, or denied, or... unpleasant. To demonstrate the truth that is not seen. At the very least, they could allow Saulanna and Kairosa to see what I see."
>>
No. 68751 ID: d6ef5d

All right, so it's an aspect of the great curse, becoming a deva from our leaking energy.

Do you think we can tolerate it as? Because I don't see how we could hope to counteract, remove, combat or help it at the moment.

Between Gaea and Auto, I'd prefer to try Gaea. We already have more than one in with her (connection to Luna, and possibly helping with the time dragon).
>>
No. 68752 ID: f2c20c

>>68749
So, our most basic of plans is to visit the Dragon's Shadow and get his help so that Saulanna and Kairosa can see the Curse, and with that done, we would be able to convince Saulanna to travel to one of the elemental poles to get help from one of Gaia's Lords. I expect the Dragon's Shadow would give us assistance so that we would be able to survive there.

ALTERNATIVELY, we can try to help the Curse. Feed it TW to make it complete, and part of us so that we can tame it, sortof? It is suffering, and I feel sorry for it. On the other hand, I am very very nervous about having the Curse become part of us. Wouldn't that cause Saulanna to seek revenge against the Gods? Or worse, go insane just like a Lunar would? We have seen that even at its current sub-deva level, it can affect Saulanna and Kairosa with its powers. Would it overpower Saulanna if we made it a full Deva, even if it had a low Soul Force?

One final option is... we could... try to kill it, once the others can see it. I don't really like that option. I'd rather make the effort to try to fix it.
>>
No. 68755 ID: f2c20c

Oh, and now we know two important things:

1) Eating souls is a bad idea. Passive generation is the way to go until we get this problem dealt with in some way.
2) Soul Fire should be mitigated as much as possible to lessen the growth of the Curse due to leakage. Or, would Kairosa's method for doing this even work? Or would it make things WORSE?
>>
No. 68756 ID: 370c40

>>68755
Would increasing Kairosa's Efficiency or Ease of Consumption reduce the level of leakage? If we're stuck with 1 additional TW a day we're pretty much screwed without a wayyyy better plan than we have.
>>
No. 68757 ID: cee89f

... It seems this thing is going to get stronger whenever we try and eat ghosts... That... is problematic. Especially since we'll basically HAVE to eat them at some point, unless we can somehow convince the Moon Heroes to leave us here for a few weeks without any social upgrades (doubtful).

Maybe before we go to eat the ghosts we could use what Will we have to up Kairosa's efficiency as much as possible, minimize this thing's threat?

>>68752
There are problems with making the Great Curse a deva.

1) It is deliberately hiding itself from Kairosa and Saulanna as much as it can. If it gets stronger it might just do the same to Wordblood, and then we're back to square 1. Only without help.

2) Devas all influence each other. Making this thing a full blown Lord Deva (and it would have to be a lord, since we can't make nobles or commoners yet) would make the great curse even more pronounced upon all of us. And the Great Curse is already a major problem for Exalted (aside from redeemed Abyssals/Infernals)

3) I'm probably missing something.

Wordblood: Three questions. One, would a higher soul force make it possible for Kairosa and Saulanna to throw off this mental influence?

Two, how likely is it that you'll lose your immunity before we can do anything about this creature?

Three, if we forced it to become a full-on Deva could we minimize any negative effects becoming a deva would have? I mean it would still be bad news, but would choosing how it grows be less damaging than allowing it to grow on it's own?
>>
No. 68758 ID: 49e805

If we get Saulanna moonsilver tattoos, would that keep the forming-deva-thing from influencing Saulanna-as-the-queen-soul, or just her body? Can we cut out this growing-deva, since it seems like it's going to be harmful?
>>
No. 68761 ID: d6ef5d

>There are problems with making the Great Curse a deva.
You say that as if we have a choice. It's already made itself into one, is the problem. It's certainly more than it once was.
>>
No. 68765 ID: cee89f

>>68761
The post I quoted suggest we HELP it become a deva.
>ALTERNATIVELY, we can try to help the Curse. Feed it TW to make it complete, and part of us so that we can tame it, sortof?
>>
No. 68766 ID: d6ef5d

>>68765
Yes, it does. Presumably based on the assumption that it is better to have some positive influence than to let it do what it will.

Your argument seemed to assume we had a choice in the matter, when the process seems to have already started- if not finished. It influences two of our other devas (one of which is the queen) and can provide upgrades. It is already here, man. The question isn't if we want it here, it's if we try to cure or include it, or excise or kill it.
>>
No. 68768 ID: 3bad4c

Wordblood, if it is what you say, could you make a guess at its Element and Purpose?

Is it conflicted because it's purpose is at odds with its environment? I can't imagine you being a target.
>>
No. 68769 ID: 77cb34

Now that's interesting.

What would its role be? What would its element be?

Although it's not likely to be what you'd call 'friendly,' I am in favor of trying to tame it just because of how much we could learn from keeping it around.
>>
No. 68771 ID: 76b151

Mmm, a deva that is the great curse... sounds powerful. Furthermore our entire existence is a threat to the gods and ultimately their heroes are going to come for us and the great curse touches every hero.

Wordblood do you think we could talk to it? The biggest problem is that we don't know what it will do in the future. How it will influence our soul. If we could determine that we could plan further.

As far as not eating, I'm afraid we have no choice. We NEED that power for what is coming. Remember we are a baby titan. Strong enough to attract powerful enemies, weak enough to be easily overwhelmed.
>>
No. 68776 ID: 9ddf68

Wordblood If you had to GUESS, What do you think this thing will do If it can become a full on deva. I ask this because you are the only one that has actually FELT this thing so you have the most knowledge on it. Also do you think we could try and get it on our side as in make it an ally or do you think this thing will only hurt us in the end and we should get rid of it sooner rather then later. Cause I am a little worried about trying to force this thing out, because if this thing is only just forming and can already take out two fully formed devas I would hate to give it a real reason to attack us but at the same time if this thing is just going to come after us no matter what then I believe it would be best to remove it before it can become even more powerful.
>>
No. 68778 ID: 7003a8

>>68749
You assume the gods know of this.
If anybody could contact Gaia, it would be Luna. If you want this corruption fixed before it grows in power and further secures its domination over Saulanna and Kairosa then Luna is the only option available.
>>
No. 68779 ID: 76b151

Approaching Luna about contacting Gaia is a pretty smart idea. Eventually we would have to either decide to tell her or not about our Titanic Nature. And if we do tell her it would be better sooner then later.

Honestly I'm of the opinion we should come clean with Luna about it before she hears it from another source.
>>
No. 68780 ID: f2c20c

>>68779
Better sooner than later? No, dude. Better later, after we've proven we're a force for good. If we do it before then, we wind up just hoping the Gods give us a chance. They might very well just decide to kill us, because we're too much of a risk sight-unseen.
>>
No. 68782 ID: 47a120

Titans can choose to change by spawning new devas and eating their existing ones until a shift occurs in their whole of being. So I see no reason (aside from its hiding) why we couldn't just omnomnom it.

Our options then are:
1. Do nothing - seems like a bad idea, I doubt it will give us a pass just because we are also a titan. Its a curse not a love letter.
2. Complete and tame it - It would be a deva with an unknown element whose purpose is to curse all the heroes, the taming would involve us differentiating ourselves from the heroes with our titanhood and making it a lordly deva whose purpose is to curse the other heroes. I cannot imagine a way for it to not majorly alter our personality in an unwanted direction.
3. Try to complete it in a way that alters its purpose - that would work IF we can do it, I am not sure we can.
4. Eat it - Seems like a best idea.

I think we should go for 4 and bring in peregrine in to help wordblood take it.
>>
No. 68784 ID: 47a120

>>68782
It occurs to me that more likely its ELEMENT is curse and its PURPOSE is revenge against the heroes.

Thus if we tame/alter it I see different levels of success:
Disaster: It maintains its purpose as revenge against heroes, considers us a hero, and becomes powerful enough a deva to hide from even WB. It will not assume command because that is not in its nature, rather it becomes a self destructive force within saulanna.

Failure: It maintains its purpose to curse heroes but doesn't view saulanna as one, instead saulanna's own personality is tainted with undesirable hate for heroes, she is not self destructive but she is destructive to the world.

Partial success: Its purpose is altered from revenge on the heroes to revenge on any who wrongs saulanna. It has the negative effect of making saulanna a vengeful person; something that is unhealthy for her. But it does not come with a baggage of desiring revenge against the heroes, rather only against those who slight saulanna in the future. How bad this is depends on the magnitude of vengefulness... will we explode at petty slights or only the worst sins?

Full success: There are many things we can do here... make it a deva of justice, or even better make it a curse eater whose purpose is to consume curses. (this would be incredibly beneficial not only in getting into the god's good graces but in stabilizing the world as a whole by removing the great curse from one exalt at a time... and perhaps removing the curses of the yozi's which make them so hostile and harmful... not to mention being the ultimate defense for saulanna against curses AND perhaps drawing power whenever someone utters a curse in our domain as if it was a prayer to us)
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No. 68785 ID: 1546a9

it seems to be in pain. I bet we can make friends with it if he help it. I mean, a deva can't go against its master, right? the worst that could happen would be that the new aspect Saulanna the titan gains changes her drastically personality-wise. at which point we could get rid of it or grow used to it.
>>
No. 68789 ID: 47a120

>>68785
>the worst that could happen would be that the new aspect Saulanna the titan gains changes her drastically personality-wise
That is a pretty bad worst that can happen. And while we have the capacity to undo the change, a drastically altered personally would choose not to do so.
>>
No. 68790 ID: 7003a8

>>68780
Saulanna is under attack right now, and it's subverting the thoughts of all her Devas besides Wordblood. We have to do something about that immediately; we can't wait to act. The only other option is to find an alternate means of resolving the issue.

Also, going to Luna with evidence that Titans placed a death curse on her children and asking for help to fix it would work rather well to prove loyalty.
Becoming a Titan and immediately revealing not only herself but also insidious and as-yet undiscovered sabotage by the Titans so that it could be fixed, knowing full well that it would set the gods against her?
Yea, that would go a long way towards proving Saulanna's not an evil mastermind.

>>68782
Yes, titans can choose to OMNOMNOM their devas. And this strange Deva has control of the Queen and half her nobles.
Going by ranking, it has the power to just decide who to eat.
Going by votes, it has the power to just decide who to eat.
This is all assuming it doesn't have the Soul Force of the Hero Soul it spawned from, which would effectively make it the king/queen by dint of being able to overpower everything else.

Either way, this line of thought it not fruitful.
>>
No. 68792 ID: 47a120

>>68790
1. So far it merely cloaked its existence not outright commanded, its not even a fully formed deva much less the highest SF deva. It is simply highly specialized and its specialty allows it to cloak itself.
2. By that logic we can't act against it, period.
3. Regardless of whether we try to tame it, rehabilitate it, modify it, or onnom it we must first subdue it; yes it is going to be difficult, but as difficult as it is it is actually the EASIEST of the above 4 courses of actions and it is not impossible as you posit, merely difficult.

Subduing it is something peregrin and WB working together could do. Saulanna and Keirosa would hopefully not be fully subverted but rather just unable to perceive it, and heck, once the fighting starts it may not be able to cloak itself anymore allowing them to make a snap decision of helping WB and Peregrin against an obvious invader. Worse case scenario they would fight on its side but that is a problem no matter what we try to do to it.

>>68785
If it can't go against us then what is it doing right now? Also, commoners and nobles might be too narrow minded and end up acting against the queen and nobles can be aggressive and hostile depending on their nature.

Autochton is called the crippled titan because his own devas are harming him; proving that yes, devas can go against their own titan. And furthermore, if Saulanna mishandles this and lets it become a lordy deva as is or with a failed attempt to reform it then she would also become crippled.
>>
No. 68794 ID: cee89f

>>68766
I assumed it wasn't done growing yet. In fact, that was part of the assumption of the original quote: "Feed it TW to make it complete"
>The question isn't if we want it here, it's if we try to cure or include it, or excise or kill it.
Uh... what?

So, f2c20c suggested that we could try and make it a deva to stabilize it in our favor, i pointed out there are problems with letting it become a deva (implying we should get rid of it if at all possible, preferably before it finishes forming), but we don't have a choice in the matter because it's not done yet? I... What?!

And no, I'm not trolling or playing devil's advocate again, I'm genuinely confused here. So... we can't excise and/or destroy it if it's already a deva, but you say that that is one option for us, but... wha?
>>
No. 68796 ID: d6ef5d

>>68794
All I was trying to say is it doesn't make much sense to consider the pros and cons of letting it become a deva, if it basically already is one.

I mean what do devas do? They influence one another. Greenie does that. They get upgraded. Greenie has done that. They provide possible powers and thoughts and upgrades to the gestalt. Greenie does that!

For all intents and purposes we've already had an unplanned deva.

>Get to Gaea through Luna.
We have another route, actually. We get to Gaea through Haht'hek. We fix her time dragon, and then get her help in assisting us with greenie. And hell, halping Gaea in a big way would certainly make Luna happy with us too. It's win-win-win!

The only downside is the time and effort it might take to pull off...
>>
No. 68798 ID: cee89f

>>68796
... Ah. Okay.

I and the quoted post were assuming that the thing had not yet become a deva, is the thing. Our two options as I see them are:
-Get rid of it
-Let/help it become a deva. (remember, the original posts were assuming that it isn't already one)

I was arguing that we shouldn't help it become a deva, and should just get rid of it asap.

>Haht'hek
Kairosa implied in her story that Haht'hek's body is keeping the world from being utterly and completely obliterated.

>With his last strength, he curls himself about the existence that remains once-made, and turns his body to a wall against the fire.

...Then again, Kairosa did say that a titan can force reality into the shape it wants and things "would still have happened - you just made the world pretend it didn't"... but if it were that simple wouldn't another titan (perhaps Gaia herself) have done it by now?
>>
No. 68802 ID: 47a120

We are a _long_ way from being able to quench the infinite fires the titans set to consume reality without taking permanent harm. Haht'hek is dying and resurrecting and dying again infinitely as his body regenerates constantly to shield reality from those infinite flames. I would say we would have to be much stronger then gaia, the strongest and healthiest titan there is; as gaia had to sacrifice one of her 7 lordly devas for this purpose.

>Feed it TW to make it complete
This sounds like a terrible idea. Using TW to make it complete while sculpting it into something that would want (ex: "full success" in >>68784 ) is completely different then just giving it TW to build itself up as it pleases.
If we want to make it into a useful and loyal deva (a tempting but riskier prospect then destroying it) then we should subdue it and then complete it on our terms.
>>
No. 68803 ID: 3bad4c

Having a deva that's designed to fight solar, lunar, dragon and sidereal heroes?
That's not a bad idea, as long as it's OTHER heroes.

My motivation in saying that is most of Saulanna's problems in the foreseeable future will probably include exalted heroes.
>>
No. 68804 ID: 3dd384

Let's not call it a Curse anymore. First, we were never sure the Great Curse as such exists for reals. Second, even if it does, this creature is more than just that ancient curse; there's... evidence that Green is already a Deva, either a Lord Deva, or a Noble Deva under our Hero Soul.

I'm going to reiterate my previous question: Wordblood, what's your experience with devas who are fundamentally cross-purposes to their King/Queen? Is that something that you saw a lot among natural-born Titans, or is it unusual? How do the Titans in question, as a whole, usually deal with it?

Also:
>>68749
We've talked a lot about the Dragon's Shadow lately. He seems like... quite a character. If we decide that the "thing to do" is to approach him for help with this, do you have any insights into how to deal with him in a way that's unlikely to get us in worse trouble than we're in now?

>>68796
>>68798
Haht'hek is dead, and unless there are Smurfs in Creation he's dead for keeps. This doesn't seem like a fruitful line of inquiry to me.
>>
No. 68806 ID: ce346f

Maybe Wordblood can convince the others now that he has the words to do so.

I see three major options.

First is going with the Death Heroes and talking with the Dragon's Shadow.

Second is going with the Moon Heroes, consulting with Luna, and going on a quest to Gaia to get the things altered. Probably try and get the Tattoos really quickly.

Third, which I recommend, talk to the other Devas, and go directly to consult with the Moon. (After suitable internal business.)
>>
No. 68808 ID: d6ef5d

>Haht'hek is dead for keeps.
>we would have to be much stronger then gaia
Not necessarily! We have somewhat of an advantage starting out, since we have our own time-deva to work with. And the solution doesn't have to be as simple as pulling him out of the fire, or putting the fire out. We could quite possibly pull something more subtle or complex to free the being while allowing the barrier to stay in place.

Honestly, with Kairosa on board, we're probably the being most likely to ever be able to do anything about the problem- even more so than gaia.

>Greenie
I would favor trying to help or heal it before trying to destroy or remove it. It was born of hate and pain and death and betrayal for the express purpose of wrecking the same. And now it's alive and confused and hurt / wants to hurt ect. It's a very messed up thing, and it's never had any kind of chance.

>tattoos
Were meant to fix a different problem. They stop the wyld taint from becoming a problem- they won't fix the problem Greenie may present.
>>
No. 68809 ID: 3dd384

>>68806
> Maybe Wordblood can convince the others now that he has the words to do so.
Literally the only thing we know Green to have done so far (other than a cryptic one-word utterance before vanishing) was to prevent Saulanna and Kairosa from perceiving it. There is no reason to believe that a second attempt would go any better, just because Wordblood had a better way to articulate the problem.
>>
No. 68811 ID: 370c40

>>68804
I don't know why you're saying he's dead for keeps. I mean, he's sort of still there, stopping things from unexisting. We could almost certainly do SOMETHING about it, we just don't have enough information to know what, and we're still just a speck of dust on the power scale compared to what we eventually will be. Remember, he died as a result of the war to imprison all the other Titans, EXCEPT Autobot, who Gaea might not have wanted anything to do with even if he wasn't in the process of dying. Other Titans weren't around to help Gaea out.
>>
No. 68812 ID: 7003a8

>>68806
Why would we even consider going with the other moon heroes?
Saulanna has a direct line to Luna. They do not.
>>
No. 68813 ID: bddf2b

>>68792
Sounds like the best of a bad set of options: bring in Peregrin ASAP and attack Green with intent to subdue, and to change its nature into something tolerable like a "breaker/subverter/healer of curses". (Could even serve as a version of that "mask" deva we were considering, if its theme becomes "subvert+curse".) Trouble with this plan is that Green is now hiding even from WB (as in vanishing from sight), so how can he attack?

Other posts mentioned going to Luna ASAP and spilling the beans on the Curse and the Titan business. I second this too, since it brings Luna extremely important info he/she doesn't already know about the Hero Souls. (Cue the sound of a godly hand smacking a forehead, echoing across Creation.) The trouble is that (1) have we even got the ability to contact Luna at the moment?, and (2) what if he/she turns out to <i>also</i> be cursed into not hearing when someone brings up the Curse?
>>
No. 68814 ID: d1efde

>>68749
What if this pseudo-devas manipulations aren't actually malicious? It feeds off of the excess energy released by Saulanna in the real world, but right now that energy is unavailable do to the timelock. What it tried to do with its manipulations was push Saulanna and Kairosa into finalizing the distribution of Titans Will, after which the timelock would be released so we could talk to Peregrine.

Now, at first I was thinking that maybe it had a stealth element and was so far into that element that just being acknowledged had somehow harmed it. But what if the "hurt" actually refers to the pseudo-devas half finished state? It was using the release of excess energy as a means to build itself, but when the timelock came into effect that energy flow was frozen and now it's stuck in an existence that it can't sustain on its own and it's, I don't know, starving to death?
>>
No. 68815 ID: cee89f

>>68812
For the next 3 days. And only for really basic stuff that we lost because of our memory wipe.
>>
No. 68816 ID: ec7d87

I haven't read all of this, but I'd just like to mention that going to see the Dragon's Shadow and ask it to do us a favour sounds like a SPECTACULARLY bad idea.
>>
No. 68817 ID: 710e38

My thoughts: IF we do decide to do the Peregrin&WB vs. Living Curse fight, we should 'loosen' the bond on him by telling him of the loophole that frees him. That way it won't get in the way for the fight if the curse thing tries to go 'You are bound to Saulanna, and thus, to ME! KILL WORDBLOOD!!'
We could use this as an odd way to out ourselves- ask the Lunars to help us, open up and let them in to fight that thing (They want to kick our butts, they can do it anyway.) explain where that thing came from as proof of the great curse, possibly ask Lunars about letting us stay long enough to get the TW to make a way to fix it for normal Lunars (and possibly Sun and other kinds of heros.) And from there, basically become Saulanna, Titan of Repairing or something!
Now, Here's the bad news, Peregrin mentioned the Dragon's up to something, and he DID make Red Sun Heros, he might be trying to do the 'fix the heros' thing as well, to prove himself worth keeping around. If we beat him to it...Well, it will leave him shut out in the netherworld. He won't like that! We could give him partial credit or something though I dunno if he'd be willing to accept sharing the spotlight...
>>
No. 68823 ID: 52d91f

Ok, before we do anything, I'd like to hear Wordblood's thoughts on just how bad inviting it to become a Deva would be.
>>
No. 68826 ID: 77cb34

Hmm, Curse seems like a logical Element for it to have, I have to wonder at its role though.

Mask of Curses? Sneak of Curses? Hatred of Curses?

We could've made a Feeder of Curses, that might've been interesting. Not to say I'm dissatisfied with the Feeder Soul we have, because she is SO CUTE.

Nonetheless, I'm not entirely certain that this thing is really even sentient yet! A Deva with a Soul Force of 1 won't really be, and we don't know how much TW it was able to siphon.
>>
No. 68828 ID: f2c20c

I think you guys are forgetting that its Element and Purpose somehow equate to bottling emotions and screening thoughts.
>>
No. 68829 ID: 76b151

A curse generally is something that limits you from your full potential or twists something you have so it harms instead of helps. A deva with control over a curse could theretically limit physical abilites like strength or speed and mental abilities such as emotions, thoughts and memories at will. It in essense cursed us to forget all mentions of it. And its ability would be a curse of emotional freedom.

As for its purpose its hard to say. Right now it seems to still be forming. Like Saulanna it might not yet have a purpose yet.
>>
No. 68831 ID: cee89f

Let's keep things in perspective.

Our first priority is getting Saulanna to realize this thing is in her head. Every other attempt we make to rat this thing out to anyone is going to be bogged down by the simple fact that Saulanna has no idea why we'd want to - for instance - tell Luna about the Great Curse she probably already knows about.

>>68826
Why are you giving it TWO elements and calling one of them a purpose?

>>68823
Agreed.

>>68828
The former seems in line (somewhat) with Limit from Exalted, and as for the latter, one thing that often makes a curse so damaging is that the one afflicted by it has no idea he/she is under the curse. Or it could be in line with it's purpose.

A bit of a stretch, maybe, but so is Wordblood's mist thing.

>>68817
That probably wouldn't work, in part because Saulanna was the original soul and in part because Wordblood would be a part of Saulanna if that were the case.
>>
No. 68833 ID: cda42c
File 136297840571.png - (83.17KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis4.png )
68833

>do you think we can tolerate it

"Devas cannot intentionally do serious harm to the greater Titan from which they spring. They may fight each other for dominance, and in the case of corrupted or debased examples they may even attempt to... uugh... more completely dominate their own progenitors and siblings. But even in that broken state, they act with the intent towards the greater purpose, as they perceive it. They may have strange ideas of what the greater purpose is or what they need to do to push towards it, especially if they're insane, but the intent remains."

"We are not gods, nor men, nor any individual creature. We are not individuals! To be a deva is to be, fundamentally, part of a higher order; I myself could not think, could not act, could not do anything without being connected to my Queen. And even then, when Kairosa was added, I became stronger and more coherent. In its feeble half-existence, as it exists now, this entity might, perhaps, be able to act against us in some manner. In order to become a deva, however, it must become part of us, and thus subject to us. In any case, I'm not sure it intended any harm. Even if it did, being able to block memories does not mean it has a vast range of mental influence. All it seems able to do for now is to suppress recollection. And suppress emotion, too, I suppose, if its upgrade was bought. But, then, that may be an example of it trying to help us."

"Besides, though I certainly sensed hostility from it, that hostility was not directed at us. In fact, almost quite the opposite. It felt... sorry."


>cure it
>kill it
>cut it out

"Nnh. I... rgh. Stop."

"Goodness. You're lucky I'm... understanding, by nature. I know where you're coming from. From an objective perspective, I can see how someone could consider trying to... eliminate this influence, in our inner world. But as a deva I have to tell you that I feel a strong instinctive aversion to just... just getting rid of another deva that is part of my greater self. It happens, and sometimes it must happen, sometimes for some Titans it is even natural and expected. If I recall, Gaia's Common devas kill and eat each other, in a mirror of the cycle of her Elements, and are reborn from each other. Even then, however, that's just Common devas; it doesn't happen to her Nobles or, samsara forbid, her Lords. And this, this is not natural, and it's... unpleasant to contemplate."

"And unnecessary. I don't like to think about such things, but there are ways to... alter devas. A deva's Element can be expanded, for example. A deva of Fate or Memory could become a deva of Time, or a deva of Blood could become a deva of Life, though such processes are... troublesome, and the deva will lose a lot of the fine detail of their powers. Or a Lord deva can be inverted; it's extremely rare, in my experience, and requires a very tricky set of circumstances. But, for example, a deva of Truth could become a deva of Deception, or vice versa."

"Given all that... I feel uncertain about altering it such. As a young Titan, Saulanna is heir to those who were betrayed, who were tortured, who were slain or imprisoned. She inherits a legacy of vengeance, pain and hatred regardless. Carrying a manifestation of that bequest feels... appropriate. Would it influence our minds, or is it being born from the way our minds already are? Perhaps samsara is at work."


>>68757
>Wordblood: Three questions. One, would a higher soul force make it possible for Kairosa and Saulanna to throw off this mental influence?

"Probably, but I don't know how much would be necessary."

>Two, how likely is it that you'll lose your immunity before we can do anything about this creature?

"I would say not likely, but I admit that's more of a feeling I have rather than a statement based on any certain knowledge."

>Three, if we forced it to become a full-on Deva could we minimize any negative effects becoming a deva would have? I mean it would still be bad news, but would choosing how it grows be less damaging than allowing it to grow on it's own?

"Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it. However, that is how I am inclined to solve most problems. Aside that, I would imagine that exerting some influence on how it grows is better than not doing so. And helping it to grow might soothe its pain, so there is the concern of compassion, as well. I'm sure it would nice to have something on our side that has particular powers against the gods and their servants, in any case."

"I may be biased.'"

>>
No. 68834 ID: d6ef5d

>Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it.
Well... how do we go about that? Is there a means by which we could feed, nurture, teach it? It seems like that could be hard to do at the moment, if the others can't even acknowledge it's existence, and it shys away from you.

Or do we just wait as it grows on it's own, and engage it when it is ready or able for that?
>>
No. 68835 ID: 49e805

Does it already have a set element and purpose, do you think? Or is that something it still needs to grow into?
>>
No. 68836 ID: 520816

If we go the route of trying to befriend it/shape it nonviolently, which is what WB is pushing, then that's tricky because Saulanna isn't currently even aware of it. The only way to do that seems to be to push her to buy that "emotion bottling" power, in the hopes that doing so will give her enough awareness of Green to then be able to raise Green's SF. We could put this spending off, what with all the other shopping plans*, but considering our theme so far of independence and learning, it'd be best to get this thing dealt with right now rather than wait.

*(Reminds me of the fan speculation about the progenitor of a certain acid-sea Titan: "Kimberly, the Shopper That Marched To the Mall.")
>>
No. 68838 ID: 9db85e

I'm all for pouring some extra energy into it. It could give us some interesting new tools to use in our upcoming situations, is another new friend to talk to, and would be another deva at our disposal without the painful process of splitting our soul again.

Lets go for it! We still have some TW left over.
>>
No. 68841 ID: 6630b7

the thing is practically made for masking our titanic presence. not only do I think we should keep it and raise it as Wu-Blu suggested, but I also think its presence is pretty much essential to our survival once we get bigger and more noticeable, but not strong enough to actually defend ourselves from the entire fucking world which eventually is bound to go after us in its entirety.
>>
No. 68846 ID: 3bad4c

(in my opinion)
>>/quest/499218
This understanding puts more weight on the idea that the shard can never attain sentience as a deva, which I find reassuring. Just because it hasn't owned by a titan before doesn't mean it's suddenly going to break and wake up.
That means it won't be able to hold a grudge if it's messed with, won't influence the devas as another deva would.
It's just a very sophisticated artefact machine/suit of metaphysical power armour.

>>68841
*smacks with figurative rolled-up newspaper*
Don't call him that!
>>
No. 68848 ID: 76b151

Well we did ask you're opinion on this. So the plan:

Continue impowering it so it grows sentient. Then talk to it. If need-be afterwords we can plan to alter it.

The problem is that Wordblood is the only one that can sense it so he would need to be the one to seize the TW will and gift it to it. He would have to do it without the Queen's knowledge until we can convince it not to hide.

I think I'm also going to back Wordblood on not destroying or eating this thing.

I think... we might have to wait. In order to get it to SF 3 We need at least 2 SF. And unless we eat another soul we need that SF for other things since we need the TW we have for the immediate threat of losing our independance.
>>
No. 68849 ID: 3dd384

>>68841
>the thing is practically made for masking our titanic presence
you beautiful genius pachyderm I hadn't even considered that

>>68834
>>68836
Here's a thought.

Right now, establishing communication with Green is limited to stuff we can do, and stuff Wordblood can do. But remember, we're about to buy a skill that allows Wordblood to gift another with greater skill at communication and/or helping others.

The next time the poor baby comes out of hiding, why not give it a little Boost to help it express its feelings? :)
>>
No. 68852 ID: f2c20c

>>68833
It seems like the simplest way to deal with this is to give it TW and level it up, and tame it. From what you've said it doesn't... appear to need attention from one of Gaia's Lords to function as part of our group in a beneficial manner. Except, it's not THAT simple, is it? Saulanna decides who gets TW, and this almost-deva is hiding from her. How will we give it what it needs? Will we just have to approach the issue with Saulanna in a way that makes it not feel the need to screen her thoughts to stay hidden?

On the bright side, hey, we've got a Stealth deva already!
>>
No. 68854 ID: 47a120

>But as a deva I have to tell you that I feel a strong instinctive aversion to just... just getting rid of another deva that is part of my greater self.
So it is a deva already!
Err, WB, can you tell if it is a he or a she?

>A deva's Element can be expanded. Or a Lord deva can be inverted.
>I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it.

Well then, we have a clear set of options. Although they are not entirely exclusive of each other. If talking fails an inversion/expansion can be used; or it can be talked into wanting to undergo inversion/expansion.

Also, this path being suggested by WB means we DO need to continue eating souls as it currently gets its sustenance from that.
However I think perhaps a better idea would be to have saulanna hand off 1TW to WB to use independently on a "surprise" for her. Use that to jump start the process and get talking ASAP.

Peregrin might still help with resisting it's hiding to get saulanna in on the conversation sooner which would be beneficial.

>As a young Titan, Saulanna is heir to those who were betrayed, who were tortured, who were slain or imprisoned.
Revenge is not the healthiest of mental states. And neither Autochton nor Gaia were, both are on the side of the gods.
Saulanna and K were never amongst those who suffered... but you were WB, in your previous incarnation.
Perhaps then you are its primary source; the two of them are a part of you and vice versa, but you are the deva most closely aligned with this being and hence why only you detect it.
>>
No. 68855 ID: 370c40

>>68852
I don't know why it would be a Stealth deva. That really doesn't seem to fit with what it is unless it took a LOT from the Hero Soul and not very much from anyone else. The only power it offered had to do with swallowing emotions and then letting them out later.
>>
No. 68856 ID: 9db85e

>>68855
Its certainly masking its own prrsence well enough.
>>
No. 68857 ID: 1c7e1b

If the Great Curse is becomming a deva, and it's first instinct is to feel hostility towards itself and the world due to regret, than we really should just keep spending TW and LET it evolve, become part of us.
It will become our ally, and turning the Curse to a Boon will be a powerful ally indeed.
>>
No. 68858 ID: 47a120

>>68857
Is it THE great curse, or just the portion of it on this specific exaltation?
If the former then changing it would mean the change automatically applies to all other exalts in creation.
>>
No. 68862 ID: 001618

>>68833
wait if you say this thing could be a reflection of Saulanna's heritage could this thing somehow reflect her hearts desire or something like that.
>>
No. 68864 ID: 7f2a1b

Could WB try to communicate with the green, with feelings instead of words?
>>
No. 68865 ID: ec7d87

Maybe we should try to help it become a Deva of Sorrow. Compassion for those wronged seems extremely appropriate to Saulanna's growing legend, and is a positive and productive way for it to grow that still makes sense with its current existence.
>>
No. 68866 ID: 3bad4c

>>68858
I don't think there's really any titan or titanic work that's omnipresent, otherwise there wouldn't be uncountable numbers of tiny gods and an entire bureaucracy to keep them in check.

I think a seed -> tree relationship is going on. You might scatter hundreds of seeds and if they're all apple seeds you'll get apple trees, not pear trees.

(besides, that would make a really poor story, and that's not something that's going to suddenly happen when Wordblood's around to notice)
>>
No. 68870 ID: d24baf

>>68841
o_o

You make a compelling point sir!

Honestly as dangerous as the situation we find ourselves in, we can use all the help we can get and this guy is perfect for the situation we find ourselves in.

Unfortunately we don't know the Soul Forces of the spirits we consumed before Kairosa came onto the scene, so we don't know how much TW our little Fluch here has been able to accrue. But it seems to be of animal intelligence (in keeping with Wordblood's description of a SF2 deva), and would be able to more meaningfully interact with us if we gave it another.

Plus, if we can befriend it, that's liable to be a bunch more Titan powers! Wordblood's never steered us wrong before; I say we go for it, and spend 2 TW on raising its Soul Force.
>>
No. 68873 ID: d24baf

Oh, and contemplate the cost of a power that can suppress pain (physical and emotional) as well, in case it's cheap.
>>
No. 68877 ID: 370c40

Well, if we WANT it to grow, there isn't much reason to avoid eating any more souls. So we still should look into those other ghosts. We have to get a better look at the village anyways if we want to try and build up something like an Affection or Heart's Desire that would help us in upcoming social combat.
>>
No. 68881 ID: 49e805

>>/quest/499543

I agree, people don't seem to understand what beauty does.

Let's start referring to it as the Omnipotent Social Attack Stat from now on.
>>
No. 68892 ID: b24894

If we're supposed to communicate, and teach, and learn from, and understand this other, deva-like creature, then I think we should know a little bit more about devas.

So, Wordblood, how does a deva decide if they're a boy or a girl? It seems like you're kind of attached to being a boy, and Kairosa is kind of attached to being a girl, and so is Deva Saulanna (Ricanya Rockblossom Jacquelina Hyena). But, aside from the latter, you don't seem to have any sexual parts.

Is it determined by the titan you came from? You came from a boy titan, and Kairosa came from a girl titan, so that's what you identify as? If so, do you think your existence might lead to Titan Saulanna being a little gender confused?
>>
No. 68893 ID: cee89f

(You would not believe me if I told you how many times I accidentally deleted this without posting it)

>>68833
>"Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it. However, that is how I am inclined to solve most problems.

Any ideas on how to communicate with it?

>Aside that, I would imagine that exerting some influence on how it grows is better than not doing so. And helping it to grow might soothe its pain, so there is the concern of compassion, as well.

In that case, our priority is to get Saulanna to a point where she can actually perceive this thing.

>>68866
... What about samsara/fate? (the maidens came out of nowhere but I'm pretty sure the Loom was originally built by titans) And we know Luna can look anywhere she pleases or she wouldn't have been right in front of us.

>>68854
"Revenge... the most worthless of causes."
...
What?

>>68881
Beauty gives a bonus to attack and defense. It's a powerful stat but it's not godlike =p

>>68852
What makes you say it's a stealth deva?

>>68877
...... Come to think of it...
Wordblood: Would Spectre (may we call it Spectre? I like Spectre) gain power when we spend Titan's Will any other way? Say, if we bought a dot of beauty, is there anything it would get from that? You said that it got power from inefficiencies in the process of creating TW from ghosts, but is there anything else that has that same inefficiency?
>>
No. 68899 ID: 9db85e

Gender and sex seems to be a primarily mortal system of identity, Saulana still thinks mostly like a mortal. (And all of us out here certainly do) as such, I'm fairly certain that the entire "gender affectation" element is only really introduced for her/our benefit. Kairosa seemed a little almost confused when we first asked her about it.

There's no reason our little curseling should have any particular gender yet. Maybe after it starts exhibiting some form of intelligence, but it should be gender neutral by default. Just like Wordblood and Kairosa are technically gender neutral.

Which kind of makes me wonder about Deva Saulana for that matter... technically her body should still be mostly human, with the biological junk that comes with that, but I wonder if it's going to keep on like that, or what other sorts of distortions we'll be seeing.


As far as for the new deva being stealth: I can see where they're coming from, it is certainly fairly good at hiding from Kairosa and Saulana at least.
>>
No. 68901 ID: d6ef5d

Considering Titan/Deva reproduction is completely different from the mortal version, gender is really only matters as an aspect of personal identity.
>>
No. 68902 ID: cee89f

>>68899
>it is certainly fairly good at hiding from Kairosa and Saulana at least.
Eh, I guess. But then, Wordblood hid himself from Luna a while back when he was in a similar state (only barely aware) so that might not mean anything.

Admittedly, the memory-wipe thing leads more in that direction, but bottling away emotions?
>>
No. 68907 ID: d1efde

>>68893
>Beauty gives a bonus to attack and defense. It's a powerful stat but it's not godlike =p

It's something we need given what we'll be up against. Akatrina can socially one shot us and we can't be sure Wordblood will always have a counterargument persuasive enough to undo all the damage. Have you even considered what would happen if Akatrina uses an argument Wordblood agrees with but Saulanna doesn't?
>>
No. 68908 ID: cee89f

>>68907
Oh, I agree we should get beauty, it's gonna be very useful. I just think you're overestimating it a little =p
>>
No. 68909 ID: d1efde

The pseudo-deva feeds off of excess energy released by Saulanna, so the moment we release the timelock it's going to get a decent meal out of the excess from the two ghosts we just ate when Saulanna bursts into soulfire.
>>
No. 68913 ID: 3dd384

Just to remind people: thanks to budding off a new soul and upgrading everyone to SF3, for the purposes of Will pool calculation we have an effective Soul Force of 9. HP-wise, we are already probably outclassing Akatrina, as crazy as it may seem.
>>
No. 68919 ID: 3dd384

>>68913
(Of course, having a bunch of HP but no Defense is still kind of sucky. I still think eating books about critical thinking and argumentation is a cheaper option than a manual Beauty upgrade, but it'd definitely help make each argument cut away at our Will less.)
>>
No. 68920 ID: 3dd384
File 136306205435.jpg - (8.23KB , 200x200 , _tmp.jpg )
68920

>>/quest/499533
>>/quest/499540
>>/quest/499578
What are you cones doing? Don't you remember how much effort Green was going to to keep Saulanna from hearing us tell her about it?

Forcing it to defend itself from detection again is not useful!
>>
No. 68922 ID: d6ef5d

I wouldn't make assumptions about Greenie's functional soul force at the moment, or about how he may or may not contribute to social battles. If it's not complete, it may not have a meaningful soul force. Or as long as it's withdrawn an hiding itself, its reserves may not contribute towards the greater gestalt.

...I wouldn't even assume we could feed it TW directly! (With both the commander and energy manager unable to percieve it, that might be hard to do). WB hasn't commented on how we would best make it grow, yet.
>>
No. 68924 ID: 77cb34

>>68920
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

From its own words and actions (well, word and action), it seems to be acting more instinctually than anything else; its nature is to conceal itself. Giving it some SF to act intelligently would make it more able to recognize that it doesn't need to do so, just as Wordblood is advanced enough to recognize that he wants to talk to it because his way of attacking problems is to talk to them.
>>
No. 68925 ID: a41e6f

Buy Swallow Your Passions and Only The Voice Matters.

Use both together.

Double Passions, Eat Passions. Double food for our new friend!
>>
No. 68926 ID: 47a120

>>68893
>"Revenge... the most worthless of causes."
>What?
Well, for starters you horribly misquoted me. For finishers, that post said a lot of all of it clear, if there is something SPECIFIC you don't understand then ask about it

>>68902
>Admittedly, the memory-wipe thing leads more in that direction, but bottling away emotions?
oooh... I bet its bottling away memories for later the same way it could bottle emotions and that those memories would return later (same as with the emotion bottle).
>>
No. 68927 ID: 49e805

Maybe it'll become a Revenge Deva whose element is Virtue?
>>
No. 68928 ID: cee89f

>>68926
No, I didn't misquote you because i wasn't quoting you. I was quoting something else entirely based on the fact your post focused on revenge, then making a joke at my own expense. Specifically, i was implying that i was getting odd looks for that statement.

It is a joke i have done before here and attempted to do again below.

>oooh... I bet its bottling away memories for later the same way it could bottle emotions and that those memories would return later (same as with the emotion bottle).

Ooooh, neat. Maybe it has a storage purpose and an emotions element?
.......
what?

>>68927
'Revenge' doesn't strike me as a purpose for a deva =/ and it would be one bad deva if it did.
>>
No. 68929 ID: f2c20c

>>68927
That's not related to concealment/hiding/manipulation/whatever it does.
>>
No. 68930 ID: 370c40

>>68927
I can see revenge as a purpose, but Virtue doesn't sound like the right element.
>>
No. 68931 ID: 4e4a2a

WordBlood, any idea what this 'curse' deva's element and purpose will be?
>>
No. 68940 ID: b24894

Purpose: Revenge; Element: Cursing

It goes with the language theme (big synergy with Wordblood!), helps with social combat, and fits the Great Curse theory, and everything!

"LISTEN UP YOU SHIT BATHING WINDOW LICKERS, YOU'VE GOT TEN SECONDS TO GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY HOUSE BEFORE I SHOVE MY FIST SO FAR UP YOUR ASS THAT I'LL HAVE TO BITCH-SLAP YOU TO CLAP MY HANDS"

I dunno if Greenoggoth would manifest as plain assertiveness, or as random fits of uncontrollable tourettes, but either way it would be entertaining.
>>
No. 68941 ID: ec7d87

I'd see some purpose more like... Encouraging, maybe? Something that embodies the part of us that knows what we're fighting for. As I said above, Sorrow would be a good element for that; the compassion for those wronged, born of regret for the lost Titans but growing beyond that.

This may not work!
>>
No. 68942 ID: 370c40

>>68941
I don't think we're talking about CHOOSING a purpose, more what purpose/element it already has.

Revenge seems like a definite possibility for its current purpose, and Curses are a maybe for element? Hard to say though. Ideally we would want something more focused than that and also preferably less detrimental to our future personality but we need to know more about influencing its growth to do anything about that.
>>
No. 68944 ID: 47a120

>>68942
If its purpose is too focused we COULD broaden it later on until it is useful.
>>
No. 68949 ID: c6319f

So far it's expressed regret, sorrow basically, at the state of the world and the actions that have lead to it. For the fate of the titans, specifically.

So for its Element it could be Curses, or Regret, or maybe even Revenge itself, I'm not getting that kind of vibe for its Purpose. But I'm not sure what it could be. Balance, maybe? The emotion bottle thing seems like a form of balance, seperate youself from them temporarily, but experience them more strongly later.

I'm rambling.
>>
No. 68950 ID: 3fdec7

I think that, if the Curse even has an element, then it would be "pain" or "hurting". Something like that.
But it's purpose if definately "revenge" or maybe just "an eye for an eye"-style equivilanece, but it has no idea what would equal the death of a titan, let alone several of them.
>>
No. 68951 ID: 888f37

Is it possible that it is this good at hiding and NOT have a purpose of Stealth or similar?
>>
No. 68952 ID: cfa8a1

Stop talking about feeding our power and will to a giant green monster and just do it already!
>>
No. 68953 ID: cee89f

>>68952
How?! The girl responsible for spending our Titan's Will doesn't even know it exists.
>>
No. 68954 ID: 47a120

>>68949
>Balance, maybe? The emotion bottle thing seems like a form of balance
Due to bottling up emotions for a late TIME I find it more likely to be a synergy between its own abilities and keirosa's time manipulation. Remember that WB and K can get abilities which mix their power with that of their fellow devas.
>>
No. 68956 ID: cfa8a1

You're overthinking it. It's on the list, we can totally buy it.

Here's my suggested TW budget:

Wordblood:
World Reading 2 (3tw)
Secret Subtext (1tw)
Seeing The Tongue Slip (1tw)
Comprehension (1tw)

Kairosa:
The Perspective of History(1tw)
Forked Path Oracle(1tw)
Borrowing from the Future(1tw)
Save The Moment(1tw)

Saulanna:
Only The Voice Matters(1tw)
Self Awareness(1tw)
Territoriality(1tw)

(?):
Swallow Your Passions
(1tw)

Then we have the good lady Rockblossom use Only the Voice Matters and Swallow Your Passions to feed our green friend before revealing his presence using her newfound Self Awareness.
>>
No. 68960 ID: 47a120

>>68956
>You're overthinking it. It's on the list, we can totally buy it.
No, you are misreading it, the discussion is about whether or not greenie's soulforce can be raised by saulanna while she is unaware of its existence.
Swallow your passion is not being discussed by anyone.

>Suggested spending
You are suggesting we spend 14 TW, we only have 10TW.
Out of which the compromise has already been reached to spend 3TW on generation and 7TW on preparation for the upcoming battle. Cut down your spending list to 7TW.

>>68881
>>68893
>Beauty
Even though its not the omnipotent social stat, it is a very useful stat to raise and is extremely cheap due to spend on.
>>
No. 68963 ID: 370c40

>>68951
Yes, absolutely. Like, a Darkness element deva could have stealth powers even if it had a purpose of like... Shooting Lasers. If it has an element or purpose appropriate enough to certain kinds of stealth, it could have some stealthy powers. So we shouldn't assume it's a Stealth deva until we know more about it. It could just be capable of certain types of hiding things that fit it thematically.
>>
No. 68964 ID: 9db85e

>>68956

I like and am willing to throw my support behind this budget.

Make it so, number one!
>>
No. 68966 ID: 65ddc7

I'm all for raising it, trying to understand it, bringing it into the fold. I'm around 99% certain it is an essential part of us, and we have already lost so fucking much of us when we started this whole thing.

The big question is how. I think that for right now, we have no chance at all without forcing it or wasting Titanic Will points. After we have upgraded Wordblood a bit though, maybe.
>>
No. 68967 ID: cfa8a1

Addendum, buy some Beauty.

@Wordblood:We need to have The Cult Talk at some point, and since you're the only one with any experience in this field...
>>
No. 68980 ID: 47a120

>>68964
WE DO NOT HAVE 14 TW!
its like you people don't even read my replies.
>>
No. 68981 ID: cee89f

>>68980
I know the feeling, mate. Know that I read yours, at least.

I'll try and type up a budget and give my explanation for it. Hopefully it won't suck.
>>
No. 68985 ID: 17f906

I apologize for being bad at addition.

We probably need to save some to teach our fair friend Peregrine, so... what's the plan?
>>
No. 68992 ID: cee89f

(Removed the running will count because it made the post unnecessarily massive)

10TW
-3w to generation (As MrTT has pointed out, this has already been decided since Kairosa, i believe, has devoted part of her Power into this particular bit of spending)

-2w World Reading (While originally I was going to say 3, we're on a tight budget and honestly probably don't really need to see mal/affections just yet. Aside from Peregrin and DS [which we can reasonably guess at] what could we say or do to manipulate those affections? However, if we know how important the conversation is to a person, we can reasonably guess at those affections and more easily be able to tell when we should or shouldn't try and persuade someone. [To continue the battle analogy, you don't charge the elite soldier with a minigun when you can also slit the throat of a guy in his pajamas drunk off of his ass])

-1w Seeing the Tongue slip (Not only do we find out a person's actual intent, we learn how willing they are to share it with us. We find out someone's goals, we can know what they want/need to hear and gain a little perspective on what arguments are working, why they are working and how well.)

-1w Forked Path Oracle (The power to tell which action will be most useful is an ability whose usefulness kinda speaks for itself. In fact, if I could only buy one ability it'd be this one.)

-1w Perspective of history (Wordblood panicked when we were hit with an emotion attack and spent his healing round trying to get rid of it. That's good enough reason for me to want emotion damage gone asap. I didn't select Swallow your Passion mainly because we have no idea what would control it, though that could work too i suppose.)

-1tw Beauty (Fanservice/seduction benefits aside, beauty gives an extra point of attack and defense. It's also very easy to explain away... though perhaps Saulanna should have a bath and bring in make-up so that it's easier to explain away [as mentioned earlier in the quest thread
>>/quest/488186
We've gone without a bath for a while anyway - did we even have one before going to bed?])

-1tw Bond of Understanding (Communicating with Peregrin [particularly from a distance] is something we seriously need both in and out of social combat - he's our best [and so far only] servant and all. However, in a conversation where he does not participate directly, he could also provide healing bonuses and information that we don't know that could strengthen our attacks.)

To borrow from a webcomic I like... Questions? Comments? Critique?
>>
No. 68993 ID: 49e805

>>68985
We can be economical and teach him the long way.
Get some books in here and we study skills the long way while Peregrin learns how to Speak the long way.

I think maybe we should improve Kairosa's Efficiency of Consumption instead of Generation right now, so when we eat the next ghost[s?] we can get more out of them. We don't even need to track them all down ourselves--we can tell Peregrin who they are and he can send the guard after them, perhaps.
>>
No. 68994 ID: f2c20c

>>68992
You're not including anything involving helping our almost-Deva.

HOWEVER, I think reevaluating the budget is premature at this point. Wordblood hasn't gotten back to us on how we would even spend TW to helping the almost-deva.
>>
No. 68996 ID: cee89f

>>68994
Saulanna doesn't know it even EXISTS and it'll be helped when we eat the ghosts.

>>68993
We've already devoted Titan Power to generation, though, so that would be a sunken cost. And Power isn't easy to come by in a Shadow(y?) land.
>>
No. 68998 ID: 47a120

>>68992
Sounds like a good plan.

Although... IIRC WB mentioned that improving physical stats would come from co-oping the lunar exaltation's shape-shifting ability.
if so then according to the posts after >>/quest/499218 The overwhelming consensus is to not fuck with it YET since we don't know any better and both methods we can guess at feel risky.
>>
No. 68999 ID: 370c40

>>68998
Wordblood can do the shapeshifting thing without us needing to actually commune with the Hero Soul. The Hero Soul makes it possible but we can do it without doing anything risky, I'm pretty sure.
>>
No. 69000 ID: 49e805

>>68992
I thought it would cost 3 will to get world reading to level 2? 1 will to level 1, 2 will to level 2?

One reason I think we should spend on efficiency instead of generation THIS spending session is because we are presumably going to eat another ghost before the day is up, and so we can put the TW from THAT consumption towards generation? So if we boost efficiency before eating the ghost, we'll get more TW out of the consumption--and we can even reclaim one point of TW from the efficiency upgrade when we're done eating.
>>
No. 69001 ID: 47a120

>>69000
that is an excellent point. Actually had we boosted efficiency after eating the first slaver and before eating the second we would have gotten an extra 1TW
>>
No. 69002 ID: cee89f

>>68998
That was for poking will at the Exaltation - Wordblood can still use our shapeshifting as normal.

>>69000
I thought so too - but i looked back at the list and it had it listed at 2. =/
... though in retrospect since 2 would still require one, that might've meant it required 3 anyway.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck D=
>>
No. 69003 ID: 370c40

>>69002
World Reading 2 would cost 3 total, yes, and World Reading 3 would cost 6 total. I still feel like that's going to be worth it eventually, just need to get some more TW.
>>
No. 69018 ID: cee89f

I have a plan.

-1w Beauty
Spending freeze.
Find ghosts.
-3w Efficiency
Eat ghosts.

Yes, I know we haven't spent anything, hear me out.

If it turns out we need an ability from the previous list, we can generate it instantly (yay, Time Deva). Beauty is the only one we've talked about that can be physically detected, and we need some more Will in any case for both generation and social abilities.
>>
No. 69022 ID: 370c40

>>69018
This is pretty sensible. If we end up eating at least 3 ghosts the upgrade pays for itself, and there is a decent chance we could have 4 or more.
>>
No. 69025 ID: e8ddaa

>>69022
That's assuming nothing goes awry in between. I'd rather we spend at least a bit more now, possibly still saving the 3 TW for efficiency, and be better prepared for any situation that might prevent us from upgrading.
>>
No. 69028 ID: cee89f

>>69025
Fair enough, we can do that too, but I doubt it'll be an issue. Our opponents are Exalted, not Titans - they're bound by the rules of space-time. We could make things pretty much instantly before with Wordblood and now we have an actual time deva to help us make stuff.
>>
No. 69030 ID: e8ddaa

>>69028
True, my paranoia may be getting the better of me. Though we never know what kind of curve balls might get tossed our way. heh
>>
No. 69050 ID: 9e0824

>>69018

A sound plan... for the next time when we get the opportunity to eat ghosts, but not right at the moment. Since we can, at that point, refund a bunch of 1 TW stuff to pay for the consumption efficiency, I don't see any point in doing it now, and there's very good reason not to (in that we need the TW elsewhere).
>>
No. 69052 ID: cee89f

>>69050
We don't spend will on the efficiency boost until after finding the ghosts.
>>69018
>Spending freeze.
>Find ghosts.
>-3w Efficiency
See?
>>
No. 69053 ID: cee89f

>>69052
To clarify: i mean this in response to
>there's very good reason not to (in that we need the TW elsewhere).
which implies we would spend the efficiency NOW, before we actually need it. But the whole point of this plan is to keep as much will as possible until we actually need to spend something on a social encounter (in which case the inability to gain efficiency is unavoidable, and we can spend it instantly) then to buy efficiency if possible, so we get max TW from the new ghosts.
>>
No. 69065 ID: 52d91f

Hrm. Any thoughts as to it's probable Element and/or Purpose? Also, if we wanted to help it become more than it is now, how might we do that? Can we even request a Soul Force upgrade for it, given that Saulana can't perceive it?
>>
No. 69067 ID: 47a120

>>69065
lots of thoughts on all aspects of your question by many people, read back on this very questdis and you will see them
>>
No. 69068 ID: 52d91f

Oh, yes. Wordblood, if you haven't already, see if you can find out some info on Chimeras. I know we're not going to turn into one, but I worry that our Green Friend might be one.

Or, well, have a similar grasp on sanity as one.

In which case giving it more power could be very dangerous.
>>
No. 69071 ID: 47a120

>>69053
I am shocked he had to explain something so obvious.

However we already have the compromise of spending 3 out of the 10 on economy and the ghost consuming efficiency you suggest pays for itself.
The way I see it we should spend the 3TW to up generation now (time would work for us then) and do a spending freeze and go hunt ghosts.

If and when we find ghosts, AFTER we capture them and determine we are willing to consume them but BEFORE eating then spend 3TW out of the freeze on efficiency which would pay for itself when eating them giving us essentially free extra TW.

Plan:
3TW Power Generation - time based so do it now,
1TW upgrade beauty - cannot be done inconspicuously during SocialKombat AND takes 10 minutes to apply (most TW expenditures are instant and unnoticeable from outside)
spending freeze (6TW remain)

The other 6TW IS reserved for social spending but rather then argue forever we simply go hunting those other slavers.
If we fail to find the slavers or get waylaid by the lunars/akatrianna then spend the extra 6TW on social.
If we catch them upgrade efficiency of consumption (borrowed from the 6TW SK reserve) because it will pay for itself within seconds (as we immediately consume the ghosts).
Eating them would also help with greenie according to WB
>>
No. 69075 ID: cee89f

>>69071
>I am shocked he had to explain something so obvious.
It's the internet. You get used to it. Especially when you're used to poorly communicating your ideas.

>However we already have the compromise of spending 3 out of the 10 on economy and the ghost consuming efficiency you suggest pays for itself.
Ah... right. I guess I either forgot or figured that it would keep until we got the ghosts, but alright, we can spend it now.

>>69068
Wordblood has said that Devas are physically incapable of working against the whole of the titan. As long as it's not the King/Queen deva we should be fine.

>>/quest/500123
"... She... stabilized her caste... on her own? ...Okay, I could ALMOST believe it if Dragon's Shadow had done it but give me a break here! She's been a Lunar for all of a day, tops, and she solves a problem that has stumped Lunar elders and LUNA HERSELF for millennia?! That's bullshit!!" Extra points if the Lunar's totem animal is a bull.

Wordblood has stated that we'll likely be immune to the wild taint with time anyway, so if I understand how that works we're basically already stabilized into the shifting moon caste.
>>
No. 69079 ID: 49e805

>>69075
Why Shifting Moon caste?
>>
No. 69082 ID: 42ace1

>>69075
>Wordblood has said that Devas are physically incapable of working against the whole of the titan. As long as it's not the King/Queen deva we should be fine.
I don't think the worry is that Greenie would hurt Saulanna-the-Titan, but rather that it would hurt Saulanna-the-Queen or one of the other Devas.
>>
No. 69085 ID: 47a120

>>69075
>"... She... stabilized her caste... on her own?
>BS
I agree that is a ridiculously stupid thing to claim...

But it does give me an idea... the caste tattoos are a form of language and as such WB can grant us the ability to read/write them. We could thus create fake tattoos, the lunars tend to be loners so it would be an easy sell if we avoid those two and disappear for some time.
>>
No. 69087 ID: 47a120

>>69082
We were explicitly told devas can war with each other.
Also even if he doesn't, I seriously doubt the "can't hurt us" extends to vague hurts like making us stupid, insane, emotionally unstable, or engage in self destructive interaction with others due to the process of personality bleed-over of members of the gestalt.
>>
No. 69088 ID: cee89f

>>69082
1) The two at the moment aren't all that different.

2) I mean that Kairosa, Wordblood and Saulanna can... "out-vote" the deva, for lack of a better term.

3) Wordblood also implied that Lordly devas harming each other (on purpose) was impossible.

4) To be perfectly frank, if it becomes that big of an issue we can eat it.

>>69079
This goes out the window if we have to lock it ourselves, but Wordblood implied we'd just be immune, period. So we're assuming that nothing will need to be changed.

For a casteless Lunar:
-Our caste mark shifts with the moon
-Our power level changes with the moon's phases

But as a Titan, the wyld taint is neutralized on it's own.

Thus, Shifting Moon caste.

(I would like to reiterate that I don't know all that much about exalted and may very well have screwed something up somewhere)

>>69085
That was actually meant to be a joke. =P

>>69087
Actually, Wordblood states that even for Gaia, 'war between devas' doesn't extend beyond her commoners. And in fact that Lordly war would be insane.
>>
No. 69091 ID: 9f5b78

>>69088
>(I would like to reiterate that I don't know all that much about exalted and may very well have screwed something up somewhere)

Changing Moon is actually the name of one of the Lunar castes, and one of their nicknames is Children of the Shifting Moon, so calling it Shifting Moon Caste is... confusing.

She's Casteless, just without the issues.
>>
No. 69100 ID: afd9ad
File 136339606944.png - (80.20KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis5.png )
69100

>So how do we help it grow?

"Unfortunately, that is precisely what I don't know how to do! Neither my Queen or Kairosa are aware enough of the thing to pass Titan's Will to it - attempting to make them aware would only pressure it into stalling their memories again, or whatever it is that it's doing exactly. And even if I were given some Will to do as I like with, I myself seem to be the one this entity retreats from most desperately. I tried to reach out to it before, but it slipped away. If I were stronger, or it were more solid, I could do better; but I still cannot force it to accept anything from me."

"Purchasing the ability that it seems to be offering might help solidify its nature as a deva, but I am not yet sure harm might not come of it. I did say that devas do not attempt to harm their progenitors or siblings, but I should also repeat, and emphasize, that this only means that they do not intend harm. Just as there are humans who have befriended wild beasts, and suffered for it when their pet got too playful or protective, so too am I afraid that the fact that it wants to help us (if indeed it does) does not mean that it's wise to give it free reign. Even an intelligent and well-meaning deva like Kairosa needs a little guidance, so how much moreso this strange creature, born an instrument of vengeance and madness?"

"Aside that, either go to the Dragon's Shadow for help, or simply wait and let it develop by itself."


>Er, WB, can you tell if it is a he or a she?

"No. It isn't stable enough to have such an identity, regardless. Given how amorphous it seemed to be, it might well be neither, or both. Or something else. There have been some very strange devas, through history."

>how does a deva decide if they're a boy or a girl?

"It's just... whatever seems more appropriate. Why do I have red eyes? Why am I a dragon? Why does Kairosa have a mask, or curling horns? Spirit beings like devas and gods are formed through the symbolic resonances of samsara. If you wanted to be indelicate, you could talk about how I, as an aide, have themes of reaching out to others, and through communication, of reaching into others, of exploring and leaving something of myself behind. There's a certain... erm, penetrative quality, albeit a beneficent one. Similarly, Kairosa as a Feeding soul has... receptive qualities, of taking things into herself, and transforming them, and producing something else. I don't have to spell it out, do I? There are other reasons, other little metaphorical shades and suggestions that add up on top of each other. There have also been plenty of gods and devas who had no sexual identity, or who identified themselves as multigendered. Luna herself, for example. She's typically referred to as female, but only for linguistic convenience. She's a shapeshifter. One of the forms she's most fond of is that of a heavily pregnant young man. This is mythology you're dealing with, my friends!"

"I don't think I know any Titan whose devas were all male or all female. Oh, er, except Cytherea, but... hm, well. If you wanted to be technical, Titans are multisexed, or the question is simply not applicable, but as creators and progenitors it is not appropriate to refer to us as a sexless "it". A city or a forest or a mountain, none of these are male or female. But sometimes people are struck by some quality of the things and use one set of pronouns or the other because they feel right, and all the moreso when these things are living, personable entities. And we do engage in the act, in our own ways. It's not like we actually biologically reproduce; sex for us is merely for intimacy and recreation, though involving mortal creatures can produce various classes of demigods and hybrids."


>other ways we can let it gain power

"Sad to say, but I can't think of anything in particular."

>info on Chimeras

"I'm afraid the souls we've absorbed didn't know much about Chimeras, beyond "sometimes Moon Heroes are crazy murder monsters". I suspect the Moon Heroes themselves have tried to keep the details a secret."

"So, now... I'm afraid I can't think of anything more to say in regards our green friend. The decision on the methods presented, or whether to just wait, I leave to you. I think I should return to my place."

>>
No. 69101 ID: cee89f

Wordblood: What do you think of the plan outlined above? (Short version: we buy beauty because it's noticeable and the generation that Power has already been spent towards, freeze spending until we find the ghosts, and buy efficiency RIGHT before eating the ghosts.)

>It's just... whatever seems more appropriate. Why do I have red eyes? Why am I a dragon? Why does Kairosa have a mask, or curling horns?

Because you're closely tied to blood (hence the name), because Oramus is shaped that way (you told us that), because she was influenced by a raccoon-totem hero soul, and because curling horns influence the appearance of one's silhouette but are compact enough to not look overtly goofy.

... What?
>>
No. 69102 ID: 9ddf68

I'm still a little hesitant to go straight to the Dragon's Shadow because even if he has reformed himself into a better person he still seems to have a bit of a nasty reputation and his former reputation was that of a trickster so for all we know he simply changed himself as a trick for some reason, but at the same time I'm a little worried if we take the wait and see approach our green friend will become a real threat. I think we could all make a better decision on what to do next after we get back to the real world and have our second round of social combat.
>>
No. 69103 ID: d6ef5d

>buy power, or let it grow
I'm kind of more inclined to let it develop for now, and just try and keep an eye on it.

>I think I should return to my place.
Yeah, I think we've exhausted our options here. thanks, Wordblood. We'll see you on the other side.
>>
No. 69105 ID: 60fee2

>>69100
Random question. Can we voices turned into a Deva?
>>
No. 69107 ID: 47a120

>>69101
>Why red eyes, etc
I believe he was being rhetorical there, as he segued from that to giving examples of metaphor and euphemism.

>other ways we can let it gain power
>"Sad to say, but I can't think of anything in particular."
Well now, perhaps we can experiment. You say it has fed on the scraps that come about via the inefficiency of Kairosa? Then perhaps having her be intentionally inefficient could draw it? Leaking energy for it to feed on? It might also attract it.

If Saullan or Kairosa ask for explanation on why to be inefficient you could suggest it is going to be a surprise.

Alternatively... we could perhaps focus on raising SF. WB only began noticing it when his SF was raised from 2 to 3 and it is well known that SF has significant impact on resisting mental effects. Perhaps if we focus on pumping up SF rather then Social Kombat we would be able to get Saulanna or K to notice it.
>>
No. 69108 ID: cee89f

>>69106
>I believe he was being rhetorical there, as he segued from that to giving examples of metaphor and euphemism.
I'm well aware =p hence the '...what?' implying that i was getting weird looks for that.

>Perhaps if we focus on pumping up SF rather then Social Kombat we would be able to get Saulanna or K to notice it.
Wordblood agreed with this sentiment when i brought it up, but stipulated that we had no way of knowing how high we'd need to bring it.

Even then, we'd need to eat ghosts to get such a soul force in any reasonable amount of time, thus giving it more power.
>>
No. 69114 ID: f2c20c

>>69100
The longer we wait to let it develop, the more problems it might cause by trying to help and not being wise enough to know the consequences. I'm convinced we need to see the Dragon's Shadow, now. At the very least, it will be a grand adventure... and we were going to meet him eventually, weren't we?

This just means we have to lose gracefully to Akatrina. Remember, if we give up early, we are less convinced of the topic at hand than if we outright lose.

Oh, and that little game mechanics thing Kairosa was talking about before- we should ask Luna about that, so that we don't mysteriously find out about it from nowhere.
>>
No. 69117 ID: 77cb34

Oh my, this does indeed add a new dimension to our choice.

The Lunars want to help us grow, but they're ignorant, and the best help they have on offer is something that will only stunt our development.

The Dragon's Shadow, by contrast, is not ignorant. It wouldn't surprise me to find out he knows exactly what we need and how to provide it. The question is the price we'd pay for his assistance.

I'm sure we can figure something else out, though. We are brilliant after all. Well, as a whole, anyway.
>>
No. 69118 ID: 9db85e

>>69114
I like this option.

We don't need to fly, we don't have real wings yet anyways. We just need to fall with style

What would be most awesome would be if we'd be able to actually convince the Lunars to come with us on our adventure. We don't need to do the actual convincing, just make as if we need their help, having been persuaded to follow Akatrina into the lions den.

We don't NEED the strength to overpower the opposition, we just need to be sneaky and manipulative.

We're an intelligence type, that shouldn't be too hard.
>>
No. 69120 ID: f2c20c

>>69118
Manipulating the heroes to give us an escort there? That sounds... interesting. The only problem with it is that we'd need some sort of private audience with the Dragon's Shadow, and I'm not sure what excuse we could come up with to do that.

Then again DS might come up with one for us.
>>
No. 69123 ID: b24894

Thanks, Wordblood, for the information about deva gender identity! I enjoy getting the benefit of your experience on that kind of thing. That's a neat factoid about Cytherea, of course. It seems every Titan ends up having *something* non-standard about them, among those few traits that could be considered standard among Titans. If you have any more time, to follow this line of education, I've got two follow-up queries. Were there ever any Titans, back in your day, who had a King or Queen soul with a gender different from their own, overall, titanic gender? And, who set up the male/female genders, and/or their connotations? The Titans are sort of the eldest creatures around, and they have them. And it was important enough to enforce all the ways down from gods, to humans, even to animals. So, I assume someone had to do something to make those two ideas so strong and pervasive.
>>
No. 69125 ID: 62850e

>>69100
i am sorry, Wordblood and your council is invaluable, but i do not trust that THING.
it is your nature to try to talk with it, and as a deva you are probably compelled to try and help it, but we are not bound to these laws. we need to expel it before it changes us in the direction of madness.
we need you to either find a way for the other two to experience it through your communication powers or assault it directly since you're the only one that can. leaving it be is not a good option at all.
>>
No. 69129 ID: 370c40

>>69114
Yielding the topic is actually determined by a skill challenge. One we will automatically lose to Akatrina. Losing gracefully is something we actually can't do unless we get an improvement to our associated competencies somehow.

I don't know why we would want to LOSE anyways. We could win and still go to visit him. We just have to make that part of our strategy.
>>
No. 69131 ID: 52d91f

>>69085
Given that Moon Hero Castes change with the phase of the moon, all we would need to do to prove it is demonstrate that our Caste mark isn't the same as the Moon's phase.
>>
No. 69133 ID: cee89f

>>69129
Agreed. We do NOT want to lose social combat if we can avoid it.

>>69131
A) If the caste marks ALL change with the phase of the moon (and i'm pretty sure they don't) how would we get it to change on it's own?

B) Planning to do that in one night, are ya? During a period in which two of the three castes display correctly?
>>
No. 69135 ID: f2c20c

>>69129
We've yielded once already! We don't automatically lose.
>>
No. 69136 ID: 370c40

>>69135
We lost the skill challenge. And yes, basically we do lose. We don't salvage much by yielding the topic if we lose the skill challenge.
>>
No. 69137 ID: cee89f

>>69135
If you'll recall, when we yielded, we basically ended up agreeing with her anyway (Topic was "The dragon's shadow ain't so bad", we ended up admitting such) because our yield was uncontrolled.

>>69136
What he said.
>>
No. 69138 ID: 49e805

Let's aim to WIN and keep our independence, so that if we do decide to go to the dragon's shadow, it's on our terms and in our own time.

At least a week, to give us time to up Kairosa's generation to 4/day; work on gaining intimacies for what's OURS; track down slavers and maybe eat them; learn things by reading; teach Peregrin to Speak so he's properly our vassal...thing like that. Get ourselves stablized and centered, y'know?
>>
No. 69141 ID: 77cb34

Yielding the topic was a partial defeat. We became Ambivalent to the Dragon's Shadow (don't like him, don't hate him).

Presumably if we had been convinced fully we would have wound up thinking positively of him, so there is a significant difference between getting beaten senseless and quitting the field with serious injuries so to speak.

Regardless, the idea of getting the Moon Heroes to provide escort to the Dragon is a gigantic mess waiting to happen and will almost certainly result in violence somewhere.

So naturally I'm all in favor of it, because it sounds exciting, and unexpected enough to throw them all through a loop.
>>
No. 69142 ID: 8b0f78

Hmm... I say we accept this shadowy deva to some degree. We won't be secure about it until we understand it properly, but if we don't resist it aggressively we should be able to bring it closer to being a true ally. Assuming it isn't already. Maybe we should have Wordblood try to make peace with it, somehow?
>>
No. 69143 ID: f2c20c

>>69136
Ugh, great. Let's aim to win Yields at the least, then.
>>
No. 69149 ID: 76b151

Err you are aware the to yield literally means to concede defeat right? You basically give up whatever stance you are protecting and grant them the win on it.
>>
No. 69152 ID: ea10ca

So do we post votes on what to do with Greenie here on in the main thread?

Well anyway, I think the best course of action to let it sip on the leaked power and grow by itself - just keep an eye on it.

It's upgrade is to be judged only on it's own practicality - don't rush for it now.
>>
No. 69154 ID: 9db85e

>>69149
There's an art to it though. Yielding about the right thing in the right manner is a lot more beneficial than actually losing, and much more likely than winning flat out.

Also, one of our competencies is Expert Deception. This should give us a decent chance of getting them to think we think something that we don't actually think.
>>
No. 69161 ID: 3fc386

Wait. before you go: What are we? We influence Saulanna on an almost subconscious level yet you and Kairosa can interact with us more directly. Luna said she might have opened Saulanna up a little too much and "Something Else" might be making itself heard...
>>
No. 69163 ID: cee89f

>>69161
It's implied that we're the Voices of the Past and that the Something Else was Wordblood. I presume we have so much influence on her because her identity was wiped so completely shortly before we were added.

...

Stillll would like a definitive answer on this, honestly.
>>
No. 69179 ID: d04875

I'm thinking that Saulanna already is a full fledged titan, if a weak one, and we are part of the collective of lesser souls that advise her.

If so, Peregrin would probably know something about how we got here, but he probably hasn't said anything because if he has no evidence of us being there, it would be rude to imply that Saulanna isn't doing her own thinking
>>
No. 69190 ID: 47a120

For question on what we are see:
>>/questarch/88264
>>/questarch/88270

>>69179
It is quite likely that voices of the past have been integrated into saulanna as you describe. After all, greenie grew spontanously.
>>
No. 69191 ID: cee89f

>>69190
... Am i the only one for whom these links won't open?
>>
No. 69192 ID: d6ef5d

They open just fine for me.

He's just pointing to the first two posts in thread 1 anyways.
>>
No. 69199 ID: 47a120

>>69191
On IE, no problems
On Chrome, disappearing links
On FF, sometimes gives error instead of opening, reload page and try again.
>>
No. 69202 ID: c7b0d3

>>69199

your FF, maybe. I never got a such error with my combination of plugins.
>>
No. 69204 ID: 9ddf68

>>69199
yeah with chrome the first time the links were just colored text, works now though
>>
No. 69205 ID: cee89f

>>69199
>>69202
My FF did it too. They're working fine now. Which is odd, you'd think it'd be all or nothing.
>>
No. 69229 ID: 3d20f2
File 136382847789.png - (51.24KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis6.png )
69229

>>69101
>What do you think of [buying beauty and Generation and then saving Titan's Will to buy efficiency before consuming ghosts]

"Efficiency of Consumption is a tricky thing to judge. Regardless of the level you raise it to, you can get no more Will from a soul than twice its Soul Force. So, high levels of Efficiency are useful only if you plan to target the most powerful souls, especially considering that it costs more each time you purchase it. How far you want to take it is up to you."

>Can we voices be turned into a Deva
>What are we?

"I don't know. Influence from the Hero Soul's past incarnations? Scraps of Saulanna's previous personality? The whispers of little gods, of fallen Titans, of Fae half-souls trapped in the world at its creation, pieces of dead spirits cast on the breeze, the shinma themselves? The voices of all the lesser devas we will have, echoing from the future? A symptom of insanity? A representation of my Queen's intelligence? Maybe several things. Maybe something I have not considered."

"I'm only permitted to bend the fourth wall so much, you know."


>being intentionally inefficient

"Well, you could, but it's only absorbing a fraction of the wastage. You'd be losing much more than you gain. We can't really afford to be without any Will that we can get."

"Now, since that seems to be it, I'll be going back. I'll meet you there."

>>
No. 69231 ID: 5d121c

i-it's not like i wanted the unending fantasy-morality discussion to go away or a-anything

h-honest
>>
No. 69232 ID: cee89f

>>69229
I like the 'insanity' defense. No rational human mind could've created me, after all.

>The fourth wall
*GASP*
>>
No. 69234 ID: 2595b0

I got 50 bucks on us being pure concentrated Awesome.
>>
No. 69236 ID: cee89f

>>69234
I'll take that bet and raise you: 60 that we're representative of insanity.
>>
No. 69237 ID: 47a120

>>69236
How are those two not the same thing?
>>
No. 69238 ID: f2c20c

C'mon guys. We are the Voices of the Past. We're probably "Fae half-souls trapped in the world at its creation". That's the only explanation he presented that has to do with the past.
>>
No. 69246 ID: cee89f

>>69237
-Shush! I'm about to win 60 bucks here!-

>>69238
"Voices of the Past" most likely referred to Saulanna's past lives. And if we WERE that, Wordblood would've been able to tell for certain, especially while bending the fourth wall.
>>
No. 69249 ID: 3dd384

Wait, hold up.

Isn't Akatrina gonna notice that all of a sudden we're prettier?

How's she gonna interpret that?
>>
No. 69250 ID: 2595b0

>>69246

or Kairosa, if she could hear us. she's tasted Saulanna's past lives anyway.

huh. I wonder if there is a way for her to hear us like Wu-Blu or take commands from us like Saul.
>>
No. 69253 ID: f2c20c

>>69249
She could just assume we cleaned ourselves up. Which we should do anyway.
>>
No. 69256 ID: cee89f

>>69250
Kai's been beyond the fourth wall, but Wordblood had to bring her. Every other time I can think of, she seems to interpret what we ask as Saulanna herself.

>>69249
This has been brought up before - it should appear to be the equivalent of cleaning ourselves up (something we should do anyway) so it'll be strange but not suspicious.

>Wu-Blu
........
>>
No. 69257 ID: d6ef5d

>a guild of thieves, only they're like archeologist historian magic thieves, and they're my secret priests as well!
New crackpot theory: pre-exaltation Saulanna was a magic historian thief Kairosa cultist. From the future. Who traveled back in time to purposely mess up stealing from Kaan, get mindwiped and Titan-ed, and eventually create Kairosa in the first place.
>>
No. 69263 ID: 1c7e1b

I prefer being a representation of Saulanna's intelligence/stupidity and personality.
>>
No. 69264 ID: 25d73e

>>69257
i want that theory to be true so bad
>>
No. 69265 ID: 47a120

>>69257
that was beautiful.
>>
No. 69266 ID: 76b151

>>69257
its the best kind of paradox.
>>
No. 69268 ID: cee89f

>>69257
...
MUST! BE!! CANON!!!

>>69266
It's not a paradox if the time loop stays stable =3
>>
No. 69269 ID: 76b151

That sort of time loop is known as an ontological paradox. It has no beginning nor end as the act of creating Saulanna the titan cannot happen without the Deva known as Kairosa sending Saulanna back in time to become her mother. And she cannot exist without Saulanna the titan in the first place.
>>
No. 69310 ID: cee89f

>>69269
Ontological paradox is best paradox =3
>>
No. 69312 ID: 4411c7

Jukashi. Hey, Jukashi. You should update front page of Keychain of Creation with your status. You should also add links to all this Lunar Quest business. There must be people out there who read your comic but don't know about /tg/ or TGchan, so help them out by linking them here, at least. Some people might be thinking you're dead. That's bad.
>>
No. 69315 ID: 9e0824

>>69312

This. I was under the impression that Jukashi's illness prevented him from posting anywhere at all, and thus that he was effectively 'dead' even if not actually dead. It wasn't until just recently, when someone on /tg/ made a random reference to Lunar Quest, that I realized this was false, since the main Keychain page hasn't been updated at all with anything to the contrary. I didn't even know about Lunar Quest until that moment.
>>
No. 69316 ID: 5d121c

>>69269
I think that's the point.
>>
No. 69317 ID: 68742d

>>69312

I think the shitstorm's big enough without even more people to fuel the fire.
>>
No. 69320 ID: cee89f

>>69315
Personally I just googled for an update and found a thread giving an update on Jukashi's tendonitis and the Quest's return on what I think was a Whitewolf forum. A zealous enough fan should have an even easier time than I did.

>>69317
You think this is shit? What the hell?!
>>
No. 69323 ID: a869cb

I just facepalmed so hard my grandchildren will be born with fractures on their forehead.
>>
No. 69324 ID: cee89f

>>69323
...

Yeah, looking back, that was a stupid thing to say. Sorry.
>>
No. 69350 ID: cee89f

About the tent. I didn't notice before: Look at the crack that i assume is for the tent's opening. Something in there is glowing bright yellow/orange.

I'll spare you my usual insanity mixed with idiocy (Autopilot?! What was I thinking?!) and just say: Ideas?
>>
No. 69354 ID: f2c20c

>>69350
Mood lighting.
>>
No. 69390 ID: 52d91f

...I'll admit there's a part of me which just wants us to boost everyone's soul force as much as we can right now, just to see what our Inner World develops into.
>>
No. 69391 ID: 104dc3

>look at the color of this text

>look at the color of the mystery deva
>>
No. 69394 ID: 4b00a8

>>69391

his is green. yours is white.
>>
No. 69397 ID: f2c20c

>>69391
No, his green is much greener.
>>
No. 69399 ID: cee89f

>>69354
... Okay, I laughed.

>>69390
inorite? This inner world crap is startin' to get awesome!

>>69394
?????

>>69397
Also, surrounded by black.
>>
No. 69403 ID: 47a120

>>69390
There is a good reason to just pump SF. It is the most plausible method to detect greenie
>>
No. 69407 ID: cd862b

>>69403
Also, free abilities.
>>
No. 69408 ID: d6ef5d

>>69407
Increasingly more expensive abilities, you mean.

>?????
Skins.
>>
No. 69410 ID: cee89f

>>69408
>Increasingly more expensive abilities, you mean.
No. I mean a free ability, plus more powerful Devas and potential upgrades for currently owned abilities. I call the ability 'free' because it's not the only benefit, or even really the main one.

>Skins.
... Are you guys being confusing on purpose?
>>
No. 69411 ID: d6ef5d

>>69410
A single unit of TW is equivalent to the purchase of one basic skill, ability, or stat increase. By spending several points on a level of soul force, you are trading several of those potential upgrades for an increase in our base power. It's a basic opportunity cost. The ability that comes with the SF purchase is not "free", it is simply the one point not offset to power. (This is getting into semantics though, and not worth arguing. And long term, the very concept of opportunity cost doesn't apply when we can unspend resources).

>... Are you guys being confusing on purpose?
Try clicking some of the options on the upper right of the page.
>>
No. 69412 ID: cee89f

>>69411
>A single unit of TW is equivalent to the purchase of one basic skill, ability, or stat increase. By spending several points on a level of soul force, you are trading several of those potential upgrades for an increase in our base power. It's a basic opportunity cost. The ability that comes with the SF purchase is not "free", it is simply the one point not offset to power. (This is getting into semantics though, and not worth arguing. And long term, the very concept of opportunity cost doesn't apply when we can unspend resources).

Oh I get that - I call them 'free' mostly because they're not the main point of SF, just an extra that's honestly kinda cool.

>Try clicking some of the options on the upper right of the page.
Ahhhhhhh. Okay, my bad.
>>
No. 69427 ID: c7197a

Hi, is Jukashi here? This is rather off topic, but I'm running a quest where Ranma Saotome from Ranma 1/2 is dumped in Creation. Some of my players were wondering if characters from Keychain of Creation were going to feature in the game, and I've been told this is where you were most active, so I came to ask you for permission.
>>
No. 69429 ID: 520816

>>69427
Obviously a master of the "Twin-Faced Hero" charm.

Note that "Keychain" doesn't seem to have any continuity with "Lunar Quest" though.
>>
No. 69431 ID: cee89f

>>69427
I wanted to do a sarcastic joke but it was too mean-spirited.

>>69429
Well LQ COULD potentially be in continuity with Keychain since it's unclear when precisely Lunar Quest takes place.
>>
No. 69432 ID: 7475da

>>69427

As with most of my creations, I'm fine with people using Keychain of Creation characters, so long as you don't pretend (or allow people who are unfamiliar with my work to assume) they're your own produce.
>>
No. 69441 ID: 5d121c

so what exactly did we end up spending the TW on?
>>
No. 69444 ID: 968c29
File 136439199476.jpg - (45.48KB , 800x500 , 135166507611.jpg )
69444

First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff? I don't see how it could have something to do with shadows specifically.

Other than that, seeing how this internal phase is supposet to be an easy paced info dump, IIRC, I'd like to ask a few questions that the info itself made me think of.

>"Gaia is the Titan of Life, after all! Theoretically, she should have been able to bring him back, or at least someone very like him. There must be a reason why she hasn't, but my senses can't

reach that far."


I can't help but notice that the color of both Haht'hek and Kairosa is purple. Which got me thinking, if Gaia thought it was a bad idea to recreate him, she's gotta have a strong opinion on

Kairosa's existence. Probably knows something is up already, too. We need more info on this. Is there any way we could find out?

>But even aether itself, I must tell you, is a dire, dire secret; it is the final refined resource that we Titans produce when we purify the stuff of chaos into useable form, the clay for our

greatest works. We even restricted our own access to it. Don't let anyone know about it, please."

>"You know, a lot of the Titan's Will you get from a soul is from sucking the aether out of it. If we could dip into the aetherworld for power, we could-"
>"Forget it. The Unconquered Sun himself is the guard on that door."

We really need more info on this. Considering how much we hate eating souls, if we got a better feel for what the "dream world" is and how it works we could find alternatives. Obviously the "door"

isn't something that completely shuts everything out, since people still do dream.

We could even do something crazy and make a seeing deva of dreams. I bet a deva like that would be able to get at secrets that other element seeing devas couldn't couldn't ever dream of. (sorry)

Would be useful, and be perfect for giving us answers to the other things I'm wondering about. Though I suppose we still need that stealth deva more... Probably. Who knows. A lot of "stealth" can

be achieved by being forewarned about threats well enough.

>"She is Aa, the Elemental Dragon of Aether, and Queen of Gaia. Assuming nothing has changed, she lives in the Twilight World; that is, the world of dreams."

Aa is yellow. Like yellow jade. All of the dragons have their specific color of jade, and yellow jade is the one that is incredibly rare and mysterious. That can't be significant in any way, can

it? Heh.

I love how perfectly this all fits with the yellow jade in the cannon. We could maybe ask Peregrin if he has anything with yellow jade in it on hand. Have Kairosa take a lick of it, see what she

might taste.

After checking out yellow jade, we start asking around about purple jade, the jade of Haht'hek. It obviously has to, or had to a long time ago, exist. Samsara wouldn't be pleased otherwise, I'm

sure. I mean, come on, all six dragons have their type of jade, but the seventh doesn't? Not seeing it. Even if any purple jade was retroactively burned away when Haht'hek himself was, it seems

that Kairosa has some of that same purple essence in her. It would be worth asking her, or maybe Gaia if we ever get the chance.

>How can we grow?
>"I'm afraid I'm not sure how you would develop yourself further, since you don't have the instinctive understanding of how to grow with Titan's Will, like we do."
>"Sorcery, mistress! You just need to train yourself up! ..."

Seems like a pretty critical thing to me. We can't forget giving Deva-Saulanna the most basic deva instincts she's lacking right now, after all.

>"You probably won't unravel reality unless you're trying to, anything much less than that shouldn't cause much more complaint than any normal Hero. There is the problem of you not being

subject to Fate, though, I guess. I can't make it look like you are. Sooo, maybe a stealthy deva could help you there? Or just keep away from anyone who'd notice."


Yeah. We need stealth. I think that should be the priority after we get through the social situation we got ourselves into. Being found out seems like our biggest concern right now, even in said

social situation. We can't let the Dragon's Shadow find out about us. We can't let Akatrina find out about us. We can't let the moon heroes find out about us. We can't show up on the Loom of Fate.

We need to hide.

>"Essentially, your Hero Soul behaved as if it were a deva!"

Just wondering how close to Luna our entire titanic being is, what with the way the natures of devas seem to bleed into each other. Deva-Saulanna and Kairosa both must have a lot of lunar affinity

already, and even Wordblood must have some.
>>
No. 69445 ID: cee89f

>>69444
I can't help but notice that the color of both Haht'hek and Kairosa is purple. Which got me thinking, if Gaia thought it was a bad idea to recreate him, she's gotta have a strong opinion on Kairosa's existence. Probably knows something is up already, too. We need more info on this. Is there any way we could find out?

How? Kairosa only knows about Haht'hek because they're both Time. If Gaia never made another Time deva to fulfil Haht'hek's role why would she know about her?

>We really need more info on this. Considering how much we hate eating souls, if we got a better feel for what the "dream world" is and how it works we could find alternatives. Obviously the "door" isn't something that completely shuts everything out, since people still do dream.

... Where are you getting 'dream world'? All I see is aetherworld.

>We need to hide.

Saulanna is of the opinion it's still too soon to make another deva.

>First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff? I don't see how it could have something to do with shadows specifically.

Death Hero caste marks are black and blood red. I'll let you do the rest of the math.

>>69441
We haven't yet.
>>
No. 69448 ID: 5d121c

>>69445
>Saulanna is of the opinion it's still too soon to make another deva.

That's just tentative consensus, though. If the need to hide comes up, as it may well if any of the moon heroes or akatrina find out too much about us in the near future, it'll change.
>>
No. 69449 ID: 49add0

>>69448
>Consensus
No it's not. I mean, yes, that was the general consensus, but that's not all it is.

>>/quest/495847
>"Too soon. Definitely."

Gathering a consensus won't matter if Saulanna utterly refuses to from sheer trauma, and frankly I don't think we should force the issue.
>>
No. 69450 ID: 7475da

>>69444
>First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff?

I, um.

I use red, see, to sketch out how I'm positioning everything, before I draw it properly.

I forgot to turn that layer off.

Sorry.
>>
No. 69453 ID: 5d121c

>>69431
I think it takes place a few hundred years after the return of the solars. So yeah, it could easily be the same continuity, if there was a reason for it to be.

>>69449
I don't see why my argument would only count for the suggestions and not Saulanna as the character. She's not an idiot, she'd see a need to hide if there was an obvious need to hide.

Also, who knows if that too soon thing still stands. A lot has changed in the inner world. And well, let's not forget that this was said while discussing a perceptive deva while an entity that wants to hide was manipulating the situation.
>>
No. 69455 ID: 49add0

>>69450
... So it WASN'T a death hero quirk, then?

dammit =(

>>69452
Because A) 'consensus' requires more than one person. Saulanna is not more than one person. Having a consensus with yourself is more than a little redundant.

B) That particular quote came after we upgraded her soul force, ie, AFTER the inner world changes. So it's been the equivalent of a few minutes since she said it was definitely too soon. Pain on the scale it was implied to be tends to linger in one's mind - a few minutes after 'Definitely too soon' is still too soon.

C) Saulanna is still a human being, with emotion and all the positives and negative that come with it. One of those negatives would be a great aversion to pain, especially pain that severe. Heck, maybe we need to let her recover in the real world instead of this time-freeze thing we have right now.

---

Wait a second, this gives me an idea.

Would Kairosa be capable of freezing Saulanna's awareness next time so she's unaware of the soul being ripped off of her? Like anesthetic or something?
>>
No. 69460 ID: 5d121c

>>69455
You're either grasping at straws or just trying to insult my intelligence now. Whatever, man. It'll come as it comes.
>>
No. 69462 ID: d6ef5d

Creating a new Lord Deva is a Big Deal™, and we still haven't really finished the process of integrating the one we just made. And then there's the fact we accidentally had an unplanned deva (or proto-deva?) of unknown element and purpose we haven't even started on yet. Put that together with the strain on Saulanna, and we got plenty of reasons to not want to get a new deva soon.

And that's just the in universe rational! Outside- it requires a huge effort on our part planning and brainstorming and voting- before and after character creation. If you count the dis thread we killed and the internal phase it took two whole threads to get Kairosa up and running! That's not something we're going to do frequently, or at the drop of a hat.

It doesn't really work from a storytelling perspective either to introduce devas too closely, either (and if you consider the role of samsara, storytelling considerations double as in and out of universe!). Wrecks pacing. It makes sense there would be additional roadblocks to prevent us from just making a new one every time we hit the relatively small amount of TW it would take at this point.
>>
No. 69463 ID: cee89f

>>69460
Look, I get the knee-jerk reaction to everything I post at this point is to assume I'm yelling like an idiot but if you can't see half of it in allcaps, try actually reading what I say first, please.

You think I'm grasping at straws by pointing out genuine flaws in your argument (you say "it's been long enough and a lot has changed", I say "it's been a few minutes and she said that AFTER all those changes") and/or insulting you because I'm telling you you're wrong?

*rereads*

...Okay, A is nitpicking semantics, i admit. B, on the other hand, is a genuine issue, as is C.

>She's not an idiot, she'd see a need to hide if there was an obvious need to hide.

Implying that the only reason she WOULDN'T make a new deva is that she's stupid. IE, that it's a matter of logic.

You have ignored emotional state entirely. Saulanna is smart but she's not emotionless - getting your soul ripped so severely you can't feel anything else isn't something you can just do again after a few minutes.
>>
No. 69464 ID: c6319f

>>69463
I seriously doubt the pain of the process is a major consideration in not wanting to make a new Deva at this point.

It just isn't time yet.
>>
No. 69465 ID: cee89f

>>69464
ummmmm... okay. Why do you think that, excatly? I'm genuinely confused here - the pain of the process was a pretty huge deal.

Even if we assume she meant something else when she said it was still too soon, we really haven't been in the inner world for that long. (in-universe, anyway). We've had a few conversations, some explanations, some deliberating... Maybe an hour's worth of time-stop, tops, even if we assume that she's recovering while the time-stop is up.

I agree we should make a new Deva eventually, mind - just not any time soon.
>>
No. 69471 ID: f2c20c

Y'know, I just realized something about Saulanna's Heart's Desire issues. She mentioned "The desire to grow, to become stronger, more complete" as being as close to a Heart's Desire as she can think of right now... isn't that what our green friend wanted?

Is greenie's situation affecting her enough to influence her heart's desire? Wordblood said that you could guide a new Deva to alter their purpose to something related or similar in scope. Is that what's happening here? Are we guiding her Heart's Desire towards simply getting stronger, rather than something more long-term or benevolent?
>>
No. 69472 ID: e98374

Well, damn. The horns are going to convince our lunar guests that we had an unfortunate wyld surge and need tattooing all the more before we have more of them.

Also daum girl you huge O_o
>>
No. 69473 ID: 76bc8d

>>69471
If there is anything keeping her from settling on a better hearts desire, it's us.
>>
No. 69474 ID: cee89f

... Okay, so...

We can probably do our hair another way to hide the horns. Maybe spend that last bit of will to make us shrink? Or maybe regular ol' lunar shapeshifting will fix our size issue? ... Then again maybe not, we can't exactly eat our own heart, now can we...
>>
No. 69475 ID: 76bc8d

We need to adapt our shape shifting ability to return to our previous form and size. I have no idea what it'll take to do that, though. I guess it would be Saulannas domain directly, and I'm sure it's possible, but the cost... We may need to rewind a few powers, or send out Peregin to arrest a ghost or two on his own.
>>
No. 69477 ID: e9140c

if it was up to me I'd just spend all my efforts on being awesome in combat so I could just beat up whoever had a problem with me having horns.
>>
No. 69481 ID: 9db85e

All things considered, I want to be remembered as having voted for avoiding another social at all, and focusing on escape.
>>
No. 69482 ID: af8414

Step 1: Try shapeshifting
Step 2: Use Kairosa's TW recovery ability and spend it to get back to normal-ish human appearance
>>
No. 69484 ID: 76b151

Our new size probably has nothing to do with our new abilities and everything to do with the fact that we are a SF 9 being.
>>
No. 69485 ID: 76b151

Oh and for shape shifting all we have to do is eat a human heart.
>>
No. 69486 ID: cee89f

..... Eh. Guess we should've known this might happen.

>Star mystery

Ooooh, sounds like fun! =D Assuming they're in chronological order because of Devourer and Mask:

>Mask
Exaltation. Easy. Raccoon mask, exaltation is kind of a big deal, and it's the earliest moment in Saulanna's awareness.

>Scepter
...................... Okay, no idea. Best guess is that it refers to Saulanna being the Queen somehow. Maybe making Peregrin our vassal, but then why that placement...

>Waiting Man
Gevin, probably. Our first quest.

>Tome
I'd say this is when Saulanna first ate that book and began hearing Wordblood for the first time.

>Crescent
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I wanna say 'meeting the moon heroes' but that feels off somehow... Maybe that was when the Hero Soul adapted to function as a deva?

>Devourer
Making Kairosa, most likely.

>>69484
Honestly I'm more inclined to say this is Kairosa's influence. What little I know of exalted and Lunar Quest suggests that soul force does not make you a giant with horns.

...

On the other hand, if we DO get discovered, size might be an advantage in a fight.
(Use warform! LIEK A BAWS! Toss a Lunar! LIEK A BAWS! )
>>
No. 69487 ID: 1461fb

>>69486

They're not in chronological order.
>>
No. 69489 ID: 406926

A thought. As I believe this latest change demonstrates, our body in the real world is the body of Saulanna-the-Titan, rather than merely the body of Saulanna. If we can shapeshift into Saulanna-the-deva's native form- that is, human- with the Titan-body, then perhaps we can also shapeshift into the native forms of our other Lord Souls, Wordblood and Kairosa? Perhaps not immediately applicable right now, but something worth trying and potentially useful in the future. At the very least, I would expect us to be able to build an ability tree that lets us do this.

The issue of Tells- that is, the fact that we can't actually shift fully into Saulanna-the-deva's human form- is unfortunately likely to throw a wrench into this.

As for fixing the size problem, I suspect that like so much else our most effective option is to shove TW at it. Fortunately Peregrin should be able to help us out there.
>>
No. 69490 ID: fe53d4

Wordblood: I had an idea for an improved version of that trick you used to stop Saulanna from being mind-controlled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphasia#Verbal_Paraphasia

Verbal Paraphasia is basically a disorder where words get replaced with other, similar or related words. Usually the words are replaced with words that sound/look like, or have similar meanings to, the initial word.

This word work beter, I think, because the meaning of the words are not lost or destroyed, but translating the misplaced context will still throw off the suggestion effect since it takes too long to understand. Kinda like trying to persuade people using a language they don't understand.

Though, really, you could just do that instead. Just translate incoming enhanced speech into a different language that Saulanna doesn't understand. Like greek, or spanish, or one of the dozens of languages you've undoubtably made up in your spare time.
>>
No. 69492 ID: f2c20c

>>69487
Oh. In that case...

The Mask symbolizes the making of Kairosa. It's not a raccoon mask, it's her mask.
The Scepter symbolizes... meeting and subjugating Peregrin, I want to say.
The Waiting Man symbolizes meeting Gevin, and taking on his quest to find the lady and deliver the box.
The Book symbolizes consuming that first book and Wordblood becoming active.
The Crescent likely symbolizes meeting Luna, except... why a Crescent instead of a full moon?
The Devourer probably symbolizes the first time we ate a soul.
>>
No. 69493 ID: f2c20c

>>69473
Perhaps we should simply avoid eating souls at all from now on, then. Or only eat those ghosts who wish to die, but cannot.

All we'd really have to do is survive for about a week, then we'd get a decent amount of TW a day from having 4 Will Generation. We might even manage to squeeze a few TW out of eating books.
>>
No. 69495 ID: cee89f

>>69487
....Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww D=

Well in that case...

>>69492
>Kairosa's mask
Maybe but I figured that that was stylization (which happens a lot with constellations) and Kairosa was the Devourer. Feeding soul, relation to a dragon, etc. Marking it as the first time we ate a soul feels... well, reading it, it wasn't that big of a deal. The moral debate over it, sure, but as an event in Saulanna's life, the most important thing it did was tip us off to wordblood.

Also, the devourer has a pair of horns.

Without time constraints I'll say:
Mask: Lunar Exaltation, with our raccoon totem.
Scepter: Binding Peregrin as our vassal, symbolizing both his own scepter and our own rulership of him (a la the King's scepter or something)
Waiting Man: Gevin.
Tome: Eating the tome, which allowed us to hear Wordblood for the first time.
Crescent: Meeting the Lunars (who have, like it or not, become our main conflict for this chapter with Akatrina)

Admittedly those are just what I find most likely and others are certainly possible. Comments?

>>69493
How would we get the word out on something like that? It's not like mortals could keep a secret from heroes.

>>69490
Saulanna succeeds automatically on any linguistics challenge. A language she doesn't know would get translated automatically.

The rest, however, i like.

>>69489
Lunar shapeshifting requires we eat something's heart to gain their form. Do Kairosa and Wordblood even HAVE physical hearts to devour?
>>
No. 69500 ID: ecd0ab

>>69495
Shapeshifting into things that don't have physical hearts generally requires Lunars to learn more Shapeshifting Knacks. It can be done, though. Turning into say, an elemental dragon doesn't necessarily mean you can use that elementals powers, though, just that you can take the form. There are ways to steal certain powers too but those are generally much more limited. I'm just talking generic Lunar here though, our shapeshifting could probably be more powerful.
>>
No. 69509 ID: b50bd5

>>69472
(Re: horns)
Yeah, that's going to be a problem. Simple hairstyling might be a partial fix for now, but if the Lunars notice (which is likely, considering the height) then they'll be less likely to take no for an answer. Then, Saulanna will have to either drive them off and probably owe the Dragon (never a good thing), or spill the beans. Possibly to Luna, either directly or by the Lunars contacting her.

Idea: Go to the Northern Wyld and find that cliff you can jump off of to land directly in Heaven next to Luna's game console, so you can talk to "hir" directly. =)

Actually, it's possible that these changes are Wyld mutations rather than harmless expressions of Saulanna's growing power. That would also not be good. (Not that horns are generally a good sign on divine beings anyway.)

Okay, here's a slightly better idea. Immediately look into the system of taboos and mystical pacts with local gods, which can stave off mutation. It's an excuse to stave off the Lunars for a couple of badly-needed weeks, and lets Saulanna travel around and meet the local gods, having useful adventures along the way. Either she really does figure out some taboos, or she works out a TW solution to reverse/halt mutations or make sure future tattoos don't hinder her growth. Either way she learns stuff, gains experience, and does things interesting to the artist and us players. Win-win.

Jukashi, congratulations on another fun chapter!
>>
No. 69513 ID: c8395c

This is one of the problems involved in lacking proper tattoos to fix Saulanna's Caste. If I remember correctly, unfixed castes tend to shift over time- in synch with the phase of the moon. Notice that back in the first post of the previous thread, waaaaay back in >>399782 that the moon was almost completely full. Now, the moon is presumably full! Coincidentally, the full moon lasts for approximately three days, after which we'll have more resources available thanks to Kairosa.

Funny how that works out, huh?

Hence, Saulanna is currently a full moon. She will probably not be one in three days time or so.

That doesn't necessarily explain the horns, but they're probably a result of gaining Kairosa and boosting her essence.

So yeah, what Saulanna might want to do is possibly try to pass them off as a very interesting hair ornament. She'd need new clothes to pull that off, though. Also, I'm pretty sure the other Lunars are well versed as to how castes shift, so Saulanna's greater size is probably not going to be considered much of an issue by them.

The horns, though, are probably still a problem.
>>
No. 69516 ID: 52d91f

>>502603

...Nah. More like a foot and a half.

....I suspect we might need another soul or two to nom on, to get this straightened out. We might need to develop a variant of our War Form to hold our new Demonic Splendor.
>>
No. 69517 ID: 52d91f

Also, Jukashi, are you planning on taking a break for awhile? Or should we expect more Lunar Quest "soonish?"
>>
No. 69519 ID: 637ffd

>>69481
>I want to be remembered
You are posting as anonymous, if you want to be remembered choose an actual name :)
>>
No. 69523 ID: efa215

>>69517

After one or two other small projects, and continuing Battle Quest if my coauthors are up for it, I intend to switch over to Will of the Undermind and get the next chapter of that done.
>>
No. 69541 ID: f2c20c

>>69523
I can't wait for us to get back to Maolla syrup and the lack of difficult moral choices involved in her adventure!

Sometimes it's good to have a straightforward problem to approach.
>>
No. 69545 ID: 5d121c

>>69523
Can you say when Lunar Quest is likely to continue? I don't mind if you can't say with any precision, I just wanna know about what to expect.

Weeks? Months? Years?
>>
No. 69547 ID: 952246

>>69545
Based on the previous, months, but more than a couple of them.
>>
No. 69549 ID: 52d91f

>>69523
Woo! More Will of the Undermind! Yaaay!!!
>>
No. 69550 ID: cee89f

>>69523
Well, as someone who doesn't really follow Undermind, I'll be awaiting both Battle Quest and LQ's return eagerly. Take it easy.
>>
No. 69551 ID: d6ef5d

>>69545
Gap between Lunar Quest Chapters I and II: 1 year, 8 months

Gap between Will of the Undermind chapters: 2 years, 1 month, 13 days and counting.

I kind of doubt the gap will be that big again, but if he's quest jumping, months sounds accurate.
>>
No. 69554 ID: cee89f

>>69551
If he's doing one at a time (which seems likely given the wording of >>69523 ,) then we also have to consider the length of the quest itself:

Length of Undermind ch.1: 8/14/2010 - 2/17/2011 (6 months, 3 days)
Length of Battle Quest turn 1: 11/19/2011 - 2/12/2012 (2 months, 24 days)

(Length determined by first post to final picture for the chapter because it's easier and I'm hungry.)
>>
No. 69561 ID: 52d91f

>>69523
...Didn't the entire Scellor army on that planet get blown up?
>>
No. 69571 ID: cee89f

>>69561
... Er... The impression I got was that the Astranians were mid-bombardment and the suggesters would have to deal with it on the Scellor's next turn. Tactica Command freely admitted it didn't have enough data to accurately predict scenarios, so the Scellor could've had something it wasn't expecting.
>>
No. 69572 ID: db498b

>>69561
>>69571
Well if nothing else, there's always more Scellor. And more planets.
>>
No. 69604 ID: cee89f

>>69572
And if nothing nothing else, Radde just got a lander into the air. He can probably crash it into the enemy ship. "Turn it's weight into an advantage" as he said.
>>
No. 69912 ID: 4404d5

Huh. Finally read Lunar Quest, but it seems I was just in time for the hiatus.
(Still, it made for an AWESOME read.)
Oh well, adding some thoughts for when the next chapter starts:

Since there's undoubtedly further power-ups and Devas in our future, maybe we SHOULD consider getting some Moonsilver Tattoos, simply to stay human-shaped and -sized? (Still significant drawbacks and difficulties to this action...)

If the Green One is/becomes a Deva, a self-contained entity in its own right... does that mean that the Curse is now effectively removed from the Hero Soul - thus unleashing its superior adaptation capabilities?

(By the way, if in a far future chapter, we somehow reverse the polarity of this thing, we might just end up with a Deva of Cleansing and Forgiveness... which, by that point, we might sorely need.)

We should try to help out Alice, once we get some breathing room. If Wordblood can read her True Name (assuming she isn't too mindwiped to have one), then maybe having that will give her enough mental stability that she'll at least remember her everyday name...

If we are to enter social combat again, we should definitely up our skills first. After reading/eating books on the subject, maybe we should seek out a few socially-adept ghosts, and have them tutor us in social combat, in exchange for future favors? If it is done inside our head, the process will presumably be instant.

Speaking of our internal world, if it grows much more, we should consider getting some mortals to settle in there. It seems like a nice place, and having a peaceful, prosperous community inside our head sounds like it could be a good thing for our mental balance.

Last point: After we've nommed on books and instructed Kaan, we should take a good look at the music box together, and determine what it can do. A quest to, say, stabilize the borders of this Shadowland and keep them from growing further MIGHT be important enough to the larger scheme of things, that both Death Hero and Moon Heroes could agree to let us work at it in peace.
>>
No. 70006 ID: 5d121c

>>69912
The better choice for hiding our transformation in anything but the short term would be to just get a bunch of power and leave our titan body somewhere hidden while we bring out our deva body and use that.
>>
No. 70008 ID: cee89f

>>70006
1) We'll need a LOT of power for that. Power we don't exactly have ready access to. If we waited long enough for the power you're talking about to be available, we'd probably already have a stealth deva by then who could do it better, faster and cheaper.

2) We aren't looking for a long-term plan to hide anyway - we just need to hide long enough to get some TW and alter our body again. Or to come up with some other plan.

3) We're trying to hide that our body is changing. Even if they can't tell we're a titanic deva by looking at us (a distinct possibility) ...Saulanna's deva doesn't have her Tell.
>>
No. 70012 ID: 5d121c

>>70008
I doubt very much that we'll be able to change our titan body significantly. At least not in a backwards, make it smaller sense. I'm betting it's like with alchemicals and how they get bigger as their essence increases.

We're getting pretty massive increases in the power of our devas already. Getting a deva's body out and about with an addition of a tell wouldn't cost much in comparison. What it would mostly cost is having a higher soul force in the first place, most likely.

But that's why I said it wouldn't work for the short term. After a while it would be a natural thing for us, not something we need to pay huge amounts for.

The usefulness couldn't be overstated either, especially if we could recall the separate deva into our realm from anywhere.
>>
No. 70042 ID: a8d36d

>>70012
Wordblood has stated that we can alter our body with TW, (That's one of the reasons that we don't want the Moonsilver tattoos) and that applying enough TW can accomplish anything.

Admittedly, altering our body after a titanic change seems like a huge deal we can't exactly accomplish at our current level of power... but then, you're talking long-term. Long term, we'll have much more power.

>But that's why I said it wouldn't work for the short term.

Sure, but we don't need to hide ourselves long-term, just short term. We're planning on getting a stealth deva later, so even if we did need to hide for longer than it takes to get away from the Lunars and Akatrina, we could just build towards that and make it work.

>Getting a deva's body out and about with an addition of a tell wouldn't cost much in comparison.

If we could fake a Lunar tell (which I doubt can be done... though this could be my limited exalted knowledge and poor google-fu talking), we could probably just fake that our body is smaller and human anyway =p
>>
No. 70050 ID: 5d121c

>>70042
>Wordblood has stated that we can alter our body with TW

I never said it would be impossible, it just seems to me like it would cost much more to go against the flow and change our titan body back than use that power to develop abilities that are central to a titan in the first place.

Kairosa hinted to this by saying "Ok, so, er. No problem. You can fix this! ... I think." there at the end.

>Sure, but we don't need to hide ourselves long-term, just short term.

Sure we do. It might even be better to hide in a way that doesn't involve a new deva if we could do it gracefully without one.

>If we could fake a Lunar tell, we could probably just fake that our body is smaller and human anyway

It doesn't seem that way to me. Hiding something big that's there is harder than faking the appearance of something small, not to mention elusive, by its nature. It takes a skill check to even notice a lunar's tell for what it is in the exalted rules, IIRC.
>>
No. 70088 ID: cee89f

>>70050
I assumed Kairosa said that because doing so without being caught (thus negating the reason for changing) would be difficult since we don't have enough TW to do anything about it.

Also, if it's just 'hinted' then we don't know for sure =p

>Sure we do. It might even be better to hide in a way that doesn't involve a new deva if we could do it gracefully without one.

Why? Why do we need to hide ourselves long-term?

>It doesn't seem that way to me. Hiding something big that's there is harder than faking the appearance of something small, not to mention elusive, by its nature. It takes a skill check to even notice a lunar's tell for what it is in the exalted rules, IIRC.

1) This could be my lack of Exalted knowledge talking, but I was under the impression from KoC (particularly one scene where Marena disguises herself) that such a skill check only applied for a mortal.

2) I think it'd be much easier to make something look smaller than to fake a permanent magical effect brought on by a divine superweapon.

3) Saulanna the deva can't cast illusion spells anyway.

Also, I had a thought earlier. The Green... Dragon, deva, whatever-it-is. It can erase memories practically as they're made. Maybe we could find a way to get it to do that to others around us? Saulanna doesn't seem to have gotten /too/ much bigger, maybe we could wipe their minds and have them think she was ALWAYS that size. Then we hide the horns and bam, instant cover.

... Then again, maybe we should stop talking and wait for the quest to resume... yeah, gonna shut up now. See yall later.
>>
No. 70102 ID: 5d121c

>>70088
>hiding
We need to hide ourselves in the long term because the threats we're hiding from right now are nothing compared to what's out there. We're facing two moon heroes and a death hero, all of medium age or so. Out there, there's much older and stronger heroes, of more types than this. There's Incarnae. There's other Titans that might not be friendly, the Yozi, maybe even the Neverborn if we look deep enough. Considering what we are, we're guaranteed to be playing in that league.

Basically, we need to play it safe even after the current situation is resolved.

>tell

These things apply equally to everyone, it's just that heroes are so much better at making such checks.

There's nothing about a tell that screams out mystical effect brought on by divinity if you don't scrutinize it closely. And if we DID want to have a fake tell pass close scrutiny, we'd probably need to do it with moon power, which we have anyway.

But I'm getting a bit beyond my depth now, too. This is more inference from memory than anything solid. I need to get out my lunar books some time.

>illusion spells

That implies sorcery. Which is an overcomplex imitation of a titan's most basic abilities.

Um, yeah, we can do that if we apply a bit of power to it.

>erase memory

That could work. Then again, that thing seems a bit... foul. I don't know if we should unleash it before we can even find out more about it.

See ya around then.
>>
No. 70104 ID: cff2a9

Clearly, if people are curious, we can just explain that during the break we changed our animal to the beautiful yet dangerous DIRE RACCOON
>>
No. 70153 ID: 78c6ea

I wonder why she got horns. Is it just a Wordblood-dragony thing? Is it some subconscious expression of her guilt over devouring souls? Honestly getting bigger doesn't make all that much sense either. I mean, she's a freakin' shapeshifter can't she just like, fix it?

Then again the walls of text for this adventure in addition to the proliferous source material has me balking like crazy. I'm probably missing something obvious.
>>
No. 70155 ID: cff2a9

>>70153
>I wonder why she got horns. Is it just a Wordblood-dragony thing?

See the title card of this thread? Look at the person Saulanna is looking at. The horny time lady who was created and strengthened during the time we didn't see Saulanna?

It might be related to her.
>>
No. 70171 ID: c35eac

I'm going to translate this awesome comic into Russian and have already sent the e-mail to the Jukashi (jukashi@patternspider.net ) for permission, but got no answer. So if you read this, please answer on m.e.phist@mail.ru
>>
No. 70348 ID: 509e51
File 136743779073.png - (92.15KB , 600x600 , akatits.png )
70348

How about some shadow boobs?
>>
No. 70350 ID: 150fea

ohh hehee~ Very nice...

Have I ever told you what kind of a a big fan I am of you? Honest it's true I love your work.
>>
No. 70356 ID: 406926

>>70348
Clearly two of her most powerful tools in negotiating people into their graves.
>>
No. 70365 ID: bf54a8

now we see why she has a dot more in beauty.
>>
No. 70366 ID: 65449b

>>70348
I'm choosing to accept this as a belated birthday present. Fantastic work, by way.
>>
No. 70377 ID: 4fbef4

I just lifted up my desk without using my hands.
>>
No. 70389 ID: beeca1
File 136768984169.png - (75.40KB , 327x469 , Shadowcropped2.png )
70389

My breasts are up here
>>
No. 70390 ID: 9654ee

>>70389

I love it when I can look a woman in her eyes.
>>
No. 70393 ID: 47a120

>>70348
nice
>>
No. 70397 ID: 47a120

>>70356
Eh, boobs are nice but she is adorable and beautiful and sexy in so many other ways.

>>70389
Dear lord that is horrifying!
>>
No. 70401 ID: 406926

For the reference and amusement of those interested, I squandered a modest amount of time collecting Lunar Quest related posts from various questdis threads. Okay, just the ITQ and holiday threads, but eh.

>>19206
>>17957
>>47549
>>67912
>>69381
>>69873

>>20217
>>40084
>>57571
>>57590
>>25780
>>45268
>>62894
>>34244
>>47967
>>
No. 70402 ID: d6ef5d

Off the top of my head, you missed this one.

>>42568

Her mindscape has certainly become a more interesting and cheerful place since then, huh?
>>
No. 70403 ID: 5d121c

>>70401

>>25780

Wait, Saulanna has an old realm script tattoo on her back? Who'd have thought.
>>
No. 70416 ID: cee89f

>>70397
...

It's really my fault that I keep clicking these things.
>>
No. 70421 ID: beeca1

>>70416
>>70839

Yes. Yes, it is.
>>
No. 70463 ID: cee89f

In case anyone hasn't heard already: Exalted 3e kickstarter goes live tomorrow.

Source:
https://twitter.com/TheOnyxPath/status/332167021888421889
>>
No. 70466 ID: 65449b

>>70463
Personally, I'm gonna back a bajillion dollars.
>>
No. 70470 ID: cf49fc

>>70466
I'll pay for a copy. I just want to see a semblance of playable combat, and it would be a perfect game for me
>>
No. 70475 ID: cee89f

>>70470
I MIGHT support the kickstarter if I get my credit card back before it closes. I'm just hoping Barnes and Noble stocks the new one so I can buy it.
>>
No. 70481 ID: d50925

>>70475
You're shit out of luck; Onyx Path only does PDFs or PoD.
>>
No. 70484 ID: 65449b

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition
The physical book is $110.
>>
No. 70486 ID: cee89f

>>70481
>>70484
.....

Well alright, I can't get it in a store but I can order a copy =/ Or just get the pdf.

Or both.
>>
No. 70488 ID: ecdc93

>>70484

The deluxe edition from the Kickstarter is $110. The POD version should be significantly cheaper, when it's released.
>>
No. 70970 ID: 1c60e6

I'm assuming I'm likely to miss the first few days of Lunar Quest starting up again in what, at least half a year? (IS there some kind of notification service, btw?), so here's my recommendations for our first few actions, in advance:

----------------

First priority: shadow walk back to room, in case the VISITING HEROES were able to sense our SOULNOMMING and UPGRADIFICATION and are rushing to our present location to investigate. Remember to bring along the empty SOUL CAGE CRYSTALS.
...If our light display is eliminating every shadow we move towards, we might want to dampen that down, first.

Now, for questions:
Are our physical changes connected to our total number of Devas, our total Soul Force, or the total points of Titan's Will we spend? This will affect how we spend TW in the future. Ask Peregrin whether we changed all in one go or if we, like, grew horns first, and THEN grew in size.
Hey btw, did this change give us more strength/toughness along with our new size?

Kairosa: Incidentally, what is our current MOON POWER regeneration rate? If you use POWER COMPRESSION, how much faster will we regenerate then? How about outside this shadow-land? Will regaining Moon Power faster affect our TW gain any?

Speaking of TW generation, I guess that's pretty much on hold for now, what with DS's time shenanigans? And if he wants to cut off our escape routes, he might keep doing it even now that Akatrina has arrived, in which case sunset in three days is probably at least a month away... (Though given that DS is presumably pouring lots of energy into local time doing this, maybe Kairosa could extract some of that energy from the overinflated time?)

------------------------

Anyway, for our immediate actions - since we're under time pressure, what could be done instantly, SHOULD be done instantly:

Have Peregrin gather for transport into our internal world (might take a few hours):
*BOOKS on rhetoric/sleuthing (we're likely to need both, soon!),
*Any GHOST MENTORS he finds that are willing to teach rhetoric for money,
*DEVIN, to keep him out of trouble,
*and PEREGRIN himself. (BTW, should he bring food, or does Wordblood's BREATH OF LIFE provide physical sustenance, as well?)

Put these in our Inner World, and spend a few subjective weeks learning from ghosts and books, while Wordblood teaches Peregrin how to use Power Words. (Don't release the ghosts until after the VISITING HEROES have left, so information doesn't spread.)

Hey, if we have a couple of smooth-talking ghosts in our head, anyway, could they help out in our debate, like Wordblood does, freeing him up for other actions? Assuming, of course, that they'd be on OUR side...
Kairosa should taste the ghosts in transit, to make sure none of them are spies. (Though even if they ARE, no nomming them - it is important to keep good faith.)

Give Peregrin some input; ask him what kind of Power Word he would like us to create next, after we do Power Word: Book.

Also, since Peregrin was actively hindered before by not knowing what we would want in a particular situation, we should take some time to let him get to know us, and give him some general policies to follow in similar situations.

Finally, investigate the Music Box (It's still in our Inner Den, right?), and find out just what it does.

-------------------

About our appearance: If changing back is difficult, we can try to simply live with the change. "So yeah, I had a growth spurt. In unrelated news, I'm interested in hearing more about those tattoo things", or "I have investigated your allegations scientifically, and found them to be true."
Wordblood: If Askalaff uses our "Wyld mutation" as Evidence in the debate, would it still affect us? After all, we know it's false...

Anyway, once outside again, talk to SHADES in Akatrina's retinue. (Also, see if you can get the opportunity to SNIFF HER LAUNDRY - er, I mean, learn things about her history and personality via Kairosa's tasting of her worldly possessions. Our Mask Sneak ability might be helpful in this - it should be fairly powerful by now, considering our total Soul Force is 9 or so.)

Talking to the MOON HEROES might also be prudent, preferably separately.
We can let Askalaff pump up our suspicion towards Dulahan, along with clearing up some of the hostility towards him that she engendered.
>>
No. 70998 ID: cee89f

>>70970
... That's a good question actually, where is the Inner Den now? I mean, earlier it was stated it had been moved into our inner world, but is there a specific place in here?
>>
No. 71000 ID: b99cb6

>>70970
>Music box
Maybe not, I think Devin has it with him. Remember he was in there with it before he took off on his own.

>>70998
I think it's the whole thing. It was a small space in which an small expanding universe was born.
>>
No. 71024 ID: 1c60e6

While any medium-term suggestions I give might be obsolete within a few updates, for the LONG term, I've got some ideas for new Devas I can share:

Stealth Soul of Humanity/Mortals
(letting us look and feel like a normal mortal, with a bonus of helping us relate to people, later on. I dunno about using Masks as an element - it would seem to overlap with shape-changing, which Lunars are already naturally good at. On the other hand, it might super-charge our existing abilities...),

Crafting Soul of Life/Organics/Growth
(Aiming for that competence gap between Gaia and Autochton. Would help moderately with normal crafting, but would specialize in things like Medicine, designing the Inner World ecosystem, growing new and interesting organs, cheaper body upgrades, etc. Ideally, this Deva would also help us understand our Hero Soul better...),

Shaping Soul of Metal/Magical Materials/Moonsilver
(A shaping soul would be focused on enforcing our will on the world, giving bonuses to Sorcery, Wyldshaping, Power Words, etc. And if we do get Moonsilver Tattoos, a Deva such as this might help us getting around their limitations. Besides, Power Word: Moonsilver would let us have lots of material for crafting...),

Seeing Soul of Power/Energy/Spirit
(Specifically, it would be useful to have a soul focused on detecting gods, exaltations, titans, and titan fragments, since those are what we worry about most. Hard to formulate the element so it doesn't intrude on Will, though. ),

Traveling Soul of Space/Borders/Doors
(This soul would help us escape our enemies, travel quickly to other places, and teleport to places we've 'bookmarked'. And with the right choice of element, we might walk with impunity through force-fields, wards - even walls - go from the Shadow-land to the living world AT NIGHT, jump to the Labyrinth and back, and perform Shadow Walking over large distances once we learn some Shadow Arts. It might also help with travel to/from our internal world),

Warrior Soul of Love/Friendship
(We need more human-ish themes, and it would be nice to have someone to stand guard over our beloved Devas in case our Inner World is ever invaded. )

Aide of Change/Evolution
(Nothing stops us from having multiple Aides, right? This one would help us shape-shift, help us form new Devas more easily, help develop the Green One, help ghosts be less static, help imprisoned Titans evolve past their limitations...
Of course, 'Change' might overlap with the Time element. And come to think, "Aide of Change" is a pretty good description of what our Hero Soul does, so there might be conflict there. Not to mention that if the DS's Deva with the Change Element happens to also be an Aide, things might get... complicated. )

----------------

You know, considering the Devas likely to form from Saulanna, our Moon Soul and the Green One... it seems we're going to be a VERY stealth/flight/survival-oriented Titan. This is probably a good thing, given how many beings will be on the hunt for us. Still, we might want to go quest for more Titanic Fragments, to diversify a bit ;)
>>
No. 71025 ID: 47a120

>>71024
>Nothing stops us from having multiple Aides
Correct, its elements that we cannot have overlap on.
The watcher is known for having multiple seeing devas for example.
>>
No. 71043 ID: 5d121c

>>71024

>Stealth Soul of Humanity/Mortals
I don't really like the idea of this for some reason. And if you're worried about shape

changing overlapping with our lunar stuff, why aren't you worried about this overlapping with

us being a mortal in the first place. I think the comparison is solid. There's nothing saying

we can't overlap either.

I still like the idea of paradox as the element for a stealth deva. It would fit in so well

next to Wordblood's language and Kairosa's time. And it is a thing that by its nature obscures

truths. Not a lot of people like it though, sadly.

>Crafting Soul of Life/Organics/Growth
Those sound all Gaia and zero Autochthon to me. Which makes sense, since the two are supposed

to be opposites anyway. Trying to get closer to Autochthon would clash with our lunar nature

as well and would be a bad idea, there'd been talk about this when we were making Kairosa.

>Shaping Soul of Metal/Magical Materials/Moonsilver
I guess it could work, but I don't see how it would fit into our broader themes. Maybe we

could make a new magical material for each of our noble devas in time if we did this.

Probably, even. Which would be neat. There's probably a purple jade concept for Kairosa out

there already, back from when there were seven elemental dragons, we'd just need to recreate

it.

'Power Word: Moonsilver' seems silly though. You can't 'do' moonsilver. How would that fit as

a power word? They need to be something more language-y, I think.

>Seeing Soul of Power/Energy/Spirit
These are not specific enough to be elements, IIRC.

>Traveling Soul of Space/Borders/Doors
Borders would be cool. Space seems iffy and doors is just cliche.

The concept of borders is just wide enough to touch on many interesting things. Borders in space, borders between time, borders between concepts in thought and language. Good synergy with all of our other devas if you ask me.

>Warrior Soul of Love/Friendship
A feeding sould of love was said to be a really bad idea because it would clash with the

nature of the world and all the conflict in it, and you want to make a warrior soul of love?

Friendship would work better, but I don't think that's saying much.

We need something better for a warrior soul.

>Aide of Change/Evolution
I really like the elements of change and evolution, but why put them on an aide? There's

nothing stopping us from having multiple aides and having them might even shape us into a very

helpful titan or something, but we kinda need a lot of other things before we need another

aide.

Maybe a shaping or crafting soul of change/evolution would fit better.


Also, I still think we really need a noble deva of Rebirth somewhere sometime, to balance Kairosa's "devour everything" thing. A healing soul of Rebirth?
>>
No. 71044 ID: 5d121c

I'd reformat the line breaks in that post, but it's giving me an "incorrect password" error when I try to delete it. Sorry about that.
>>
No. 71050 ID: 1c60e6

>Crafter of Life
I was thinking that crafting is an Autocthon thing, and Life is a Gaia thing. A builder of growing things seemed more intuitive and useful than, say, a Farmer of Machinery.
Hm, actually a Crafting Soul of Change/Evolution sounds like a good idea, and would probably accomplish the main thing I was shooting for.

>Shaper of Magical Materials
We know Power Word: Book is an option, and Power Word: Tree was mentioned. Power Word: Moonsilver would create a (probably small) quantity of Moonsilver. I seem to recall Exalts can do something like this with wyldshaping, though it costs XP or something.
But yeah, I also had trouble fitting it into our themes. Maybe an element of Infusion/Creation would be better. (HwBtUW had Creation as an Element)

>Warrior of Love
A Deva like this would have difficulty harming things, but would probably excel at protecting things, which was what I was going for. And I like the concept better than a pure Protector Soul, which would probably be focused on force-fields and buffs - being aggressive about protection seems more Lunar-like.

>Aide of Change
Hm, an Aide of Rebirth, maybe? That would still assist in getting new Devas and helping wounded Titans.

>Seeing Soul
Yeah, I was a bit stumped for an element that would be good at spotting titan fragments as well as exaltations. Suggestions?

>Traveling Soul of Borders
Glad you like it :)

Thanks for the feedback!
>>
No. 71053 ID: ef34de

>>71043
>I still like the idea of paradox as the element for a stealth deva. It would fit in so well next to Wordblood's language and Kairosa's time
It might actually intrude onto her sphere of influence, since "paradox" implies the confusion of time as much or more than anything. I could see it as one of her lordly devas. We'd have to ask her about it.

>We need something better for a warrior soul.
I want to say Emotion. Sure it might be trouble but it sounds so fun. Also it includes the "love" idea, while being more flexible in its uses.

>>71050
>Yeah, I was a bit stumped for an element that would be good at spotting titan fragments as well as exaltations. Suggestions?
Power? Sounds like an odd element for a seeing soul, but it fits the bill for that purpose. It would be sensitive to the presence and actions of great forces in the world, just the thing for spying on exalts, gods and titans. It's probably be limited in scope beyond that though. Mortal concerns would be below its radar to be sure.
>>
No. 71054 ID: cee89f

>>71050
>Seeing soul ideas
Seeing soul of Change? It would notice quickly if something were suddenly different, and since Titans mess things up around them basically by existing, it could potentially sense titan fragments... maybe? Granted, it wouldn't change much around it, but if the Seeing soul's whole thing was to sense that change, it might work.

... We should probably ask Wordblood/Kairosa if they have any ideas. Though, if we upgraded FPO to work on more major events Kairosa could probably help whatever seeing soul we make if finding a Titan fragment is our goal.

"Let's go left. I've got a good feeling about left."
>>
No. 71056 ID: ef34de

>>71054
We probably want to cause change, not simply observe it. It isn't a bad element but not suited to us for that purpose.
>>
No. 71059 ID: 1c60e6

>Seeing soul
"Potential", perhaps? A Titan fragment locked in a crystal or binding circle is basically nothing but pure potential, and Heroes of all kinds must be absolutely blazing with potential.
Or maybe that's too closely related to Time...

Is Power/Energy far enough removed from the element of Will, do you think? (Y'know, since Saulanna's reluctance to make a Will Deva strongly implies that's what HER element is)
>>
No. 71067 ID: ef34de

>>71059
>Potential
That strikes me as too not-primordial.

>Is Power/Energy far enough removed from the element of Will?
Sure. If it were Force that'd be a teeny bit too close but Power has enough other contexts and Energy is more a physical thing. But Energy sounds more like a deva under Power, though.
>>
No. 71070 ID: cee89f

>>71056
Fair enough. Personally I still want the Truth seeing soul, Change just seemed like it would help us find Titan fragments.

Hmmm... How about 'Power'? Lets us spot heroes, gods, titans, anything strong. I think it was brought up for a feeding soul but I don't remember if there was anything for or against it =/

>>71059
The thought crossed my mind, too =/ Saulanna could be a Will soul with a Leadership purpose or something similar?

>>71059
Er, I was under the impression that Titan fragments were still composed of their elements (such as Wordblood) and were just too weakened to act =/ And - correct me if i'm wrong - aren't Titans pure actuality (in the same vein as the Wyld is pure potential) anyway?
>>
No. 71072 ID: 1c60e6

>>71070
Well, the two are very different kinds of potential. From what I know, the Wyld is able to be anything, but it's kind of directionless, waffling to and fro.
On the other hand, a trapped Titan Fragment has a highly specific direction, but isn't able to act on it.
So it's kind of like the difference between a box of LEGOs and a stick of dynamite. One has lots of potential for building, the other is a potential explosion.
I'm guessing a Seeing Soul of Potential would see one as random noise, and the other as a very pure, specific colour.

Though that's an idea: A seeing soul of Reality/Actuality/Existence might also be very good at spotting Titans, since they're extremely real. It would be mostly the same sense, only palette-swapped.
(Still, I like Potential slightly better as an element, because it is closer to Chaos and the Lunar themes. And we'd be able to spot hidden talents, boobytraps, etc. )
>>
No. 71074 ID: 1c60e6

>>71070
Actually, I'm curious: How would you define the Truth element?
My own definition starts with: "Truths are Facts Looking for Revenge", which is to say, a truth is the antithesis of a deception, being born as the Lie is crafted.

By that definition, a Seeing Soul of Deception would do pretty much the same thing, except it might also help us lie convincingly, while a Truth Soul might give bonuses to Sleuthing.
>>
No. 71087 ID: 82b704

>>71070
>Hmmm... How about 'Power'?
Hah, see >>71053

>Will soul with a Leadership purpose
A Will soul still finding it's purpose. Or that doesn't have one. That's one thing I think isn't going to be strongly defined for her, ever. She wasn't made to be a piece of a whole with a certain role, she's a being that does what it wants to do. Or her purpose will be something like more abstract like "Being". She's a titan so making up her own rules about things is part of the way it works too.

>>71072
Huh. I'm very curious what the side effects of having a Reality element would be. It might be very good for our general health as a being otherwise defying definition. Or it could be... not. Perhaps we'd keep a better handle on both mortal concerns and higher order perspective. And certainly it would be great at understanding the state of Creation at the largest scale.

It's downsides would be... hmm. Inability to perceive what is less real? Or at least not what's in it. As long as we aren't taking trips into the Wyld that shouldn't be a problem though. It would also be very focused into the "now" of existence which makes it a perfect compliment to Kairosa's past reading and prophetic lesser aspects.
>>
No. 71088 ID: cee89f

>>71072
The way Kairosa described it, it seems that things become more 'real' the more important they are. A trap that could potentially kill us, with both a Time and Reality soul in our bodies, we could probably sense pretty easily, especially with any resonance it may have with our hero's soul.

Possibly.

>>71074
Truth : Reality behind the deception, what is underneath the underneath, why what we're seeing is what it is. See the world as it truly is, and through the lies others tell us, but also see through the lies a person tells themselves.

... Not sure how to describe it beyond 'truth'.

>Facts seeking revenge
Would that apply to opinions as well? =P

>Deception
Maybe, but Wordblood said that trying to make a Deva serve two purposes would require massive upgrades before it yielded any returns.
>"That sounds to me like an attempt to make our new deva serve two jobs, my lady. A deva whose Element was Culture or the like would develop powers in that area, yes, but that wouldn't be what it's for. It would need to be upgraded considerably before it had anything very useful."

If we want a Deception soul to help us do anything but see we should probably save that for another Aide or some kind of social purpose.

>>71087
Yeah... Noticed right after I posted *facepalm*

>Seeing soul of Reality
... Huh. That... would work great, if we can use it =/ it might be too specific, but even if it is we could use Reality as a noble deva for our seeing soul.
>>
No. 71090 ID: 1c60e6

Hm... Such a seeing soul would be good at detecting anyone actively messing with Reality nearby, and it would definitely register Titans - but how good would it be at detecting Gods and Exalts unless they do something?

Having a Reality element would probably give a hefty bonus to our Wyldshaping. On the other hand, being realer than real (to an even larger degree than Titans usually are) might leave other people ghostly in comparison - We'd probably increase our density a fair bit, for one thing. And maybe we'd become totally unable to spot illusions, like not even registering someone's trying to deceive us.

I kind of picture a Seeing Soul of Reality as a brutish-looking Cyclops - such a realistic fellow has no business hovering - with, of course, black stripes, to go with the Raccoon theme...
A Seeing Soul of Potential would probably just be an eye with butterfly wings, though. And a small raccoon tail ;)
>>
No. 71091 ID: 1c60e6

>>71088
Truth is kind of related to reality - a Reality Deva could probably have a Truth-based Noble.
Hm, I'm thinking Truth, Substance, Order...
And a Seeing Soul of Potential might have Nobles like Utility, Danger, Talent and Choices.
What Nobles would a Seeing Soul of Truth have?
>>
No. 71092 ID: cee89f

>>71090
I was about to suggest 'essence' before remembering that was changed to Soul Force... Hmm... I'd say that Exalts and gods are more "real" than most other things... at least from how Kairosa described how 'real' something is. There aren't many elements for seeing souls (that i can think of) that would be guaranteed to detect Gods/Exalts unless they did something anyway, and those that can would probably work better for other purposes.

I don't think we should try and force a single deva to fulfill several different purposes unless we think of something particularly clever, since we can make more devas later if need be.
>>
No. 71093 ID: ef34de

>>71091
>What Nobles would a Seeing Soul of Truth have?
Probably stuff like Discovery, Information, Curiosity, Lies (it's opposed noble), Stories, etc.
>>
No. 71109 ID: 5d121c

>>71053
Paradox doesn't automatically mean temporal paradox. There are plenty of different types of it.

It would "intrude" equally on Kairosa and Wordblood. The concept fits both. It would also probably fit whatever Saulanna's element might be.

Maybe it would be better to call it something else. How about a stealth deva with impossibility as an element? Maybe a bit broader than a deva of paradox, but in the same vein. People just don't try to find things where those things don't fit. You couldn't wish for better stealth than that. And yet it seems like the perfect thing for a Titan to do.

I just called it paradox since time, language and paradox fit so well together as a theme.

>power

Same as energy, will, etc. That's what all devas already are made of. Doesn't make sense as an element.
>>
No. 71114 ID: 82b704

>Impossibility
That is a bit better. And Paradox would likely be a Noble under Impossibility. However... I can't help but feel that is an even more troublesome element to have around. I dunno how exactly, though.

>Power
I think it would work fine, it sorta encompasses energy and will but its different and broad enough to not cause that problem. Especially as a seeing soul it would be sensitive to titans and gods, in another purpose the element would be far less meaningful. I mean imagine what a feeding soul of power or a warrior of power would be like. Strong but one dimensional. Seeing is the perfect compliment to that element.

I think having not-obvious relationships between our elements and purposes will be a hallmark of all our devas. Every combination will be tempered to emphasize balance and broad function. I'd like to see our souls done this way, in this order:
>Stealth-Awareness
>Warrior-Emotion
>Seeing-Power
These should keep us fairly grounded in our human nature, I might add.
>>
No. 71116 ID: 5d121c

>>71114
I don't see any trouble in it. Impossible stuff is what Creation and Heroes are all about, and when you get to Titans it's like one of the most basic concepts they use. I think Wordblood did talk a bit about related stuff.

Even if we can reason around power being a valid element, I still don't see how it would work so well for a seeing soul. If you look at time for a feeding soul, it does make sense after a bit of thinking, but I don't see a connection like that between power and seeing. Truth is an obvious choice, but since you dislike direct connections like that, what about a seeing soul of light?
>>
No. 71117 ID: cee89f

>Paradox
... This one bugs me and I don't know why =/

>Impossibility
Can that even work as an element?

>>71114
>Emotion Warrior
Emotions aren't necessarily a human trait (Titans and gods can feel them as well) and even then aren't necessarily good. I imagine a warrior deva would feel hate and rage more often than, say, love and tolerance.

If you mean a /specific/ emotion, sure.

>Reality's nobles
Stories would probably be one. Since it'll be influenced by Wordblood and Kairosa it'll probably feel some attachment to the world-is-a-narrative idea Wordblood uses.

>>71093
>Stories
Given that Wordblood is also in here, that would either work very well (resonance) or very poorly ("I wanted a story noble! Sad face!")

... Nobles can have the same element if they're from different Lords, right? I think we had this discussion already.

>Same as energy, will, etc. That's what all devas already are made of. Doesn't make sense as an element.

Well-
>I think it would work fine, it sorta encompasses energy and will but its different and broad enough to not cause that problem.
...That.

>Every combination will be tempered to emphasize balance and broad function.

I must disagree on this - while having less-than-obvious relationships is certainly an idea with merit (especially for Devas that would be hard to control - think someone earlier suggested War for a Defensive deva), I feel the combinations between the two should make them effective in whatever we need that specific deva for. Make our devas masters of their trade, instead of jacks of all. We picked Time for Kairosa because out of the elements suggested, it was the most effective element for her to have and would greatly assist in her role as feeder/manager of our energy.

Sure, she's does much more for us than feed, but most likely that will be the case for all our Lords anyway. It's certainly been the case for the two we have.

>These should keep us fairly grounded in our human nature, I might add.

uh... could you explain how, please?
>>
No. 71119 ID: 1c60e6

>element validity
I guess we'll just have to wait for Wordblood to tell us which elements are feasible or not, before we decide which ones to root for.

>Stories
I think Wordblood will be territorial about that one. Noble-wise, I was thinking he might go for:
Thought, Debate, Narrative and Education
with an opposing Deva of Nonsense/Silence.

My proposed Deva order:
>Stealth - Humanity/Restraint
(Dealing with our body growth issues and/or noticeability.)
>Aide - Rebirth/Growth
(Help us get new Devas without so much pain, possibly help make the Green One a proper Deva.)
>Travel - Borders/Connections
(Help us escape from trouble.)
>Seeing - Power/Potential/Reality
(Help us avoid trouble, find Titan fragments, perceive the Green One if we haven't done so, yet.)

Though that's more a future development - assuming we can solve the Akatrina/Askalaff crisis without major disaster, I'm thinking we could take it easy for a while - lie low and grow in non-titanic ways.

Copy/pasting from one of Jukashi's posts
>>18273
>Don't think Titan's Will is "the" system for getting stronger in this Quest.

So, y'know, doing quests and awesome deeds, exercising, meditating on our Hero Soul, hunting animals to get new forms, slowly growing our Soul Force to 5 and then learning Sorcery/Shadow Arts, munching through Peregrin's entire library with a Depth-of-Comprehension + Power-Word:Book combo...
>>
No. 71120 ID: 1c60e6

>... Nobles can have the same element if they're from different Lords, right?
I think what Wordblood said was that if they could, then their respective elements would be dangerously close to each other.
>>
No. 71122 ID: 82b704

>>71117
>Emotions aren't necessarily a human trait
Well sure, but it keeps us better grounded than some esoteric element that humans aren't associated with.

As to what emotions come into play, I think it'll be more balanced. Whatever emotions we have would be magnified and turned into an appropriate kind of strength. Love and Happiness can be easily used as defensive power (if somewhat passive.) Also it would not be limited to invoking emotions during combat, but would have just as much of a role in social combat.

The only real downside is that she'd be more emotional overall, with it being magnified and swinging back and forth easily. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, it is in theme after all. Maybe a purpose like Protection would have more temperance to it?

>I feel the combinations between the two should make them effective in whatever we need that specific deva for.
Well so do I, I didn't mean that elements should run counter or be unrelated. Just that they not be a simple amplification of their purpose. Power is a good example of that with a Seeing soul: plenty effective for what we need it to do while having side benefits like seeing an enemies weakness.

>uh... could you explain how, please?
Because Emotion and Awareness are related to humanity more than most other elements. Not that it is specific to them but it isn't pulling us away.

>>71119
>Thought, Debate, Narrative and Education
Yeah those are probably better. Although most of those are still related to communication... The overlap is hard to avoid with this one no matter what.

Besides I think we shouldn't go for this element to begin with. It is at odds with our need to constantly deceive basically all of creation about what we are.

>>71120
I would like it if we could alter the way the deva hierarchy works a bit. Allow Nobles with a bit more independence and power, that can serve two masters as a go between. Like a History deva for Kairosa and Wordblood dedicated to making record of the past. I don't see why we can't, really. It's OUR reality. Just that bothersome thing about elements merging... WAIT if we have a Deva of Borders would could prevent that problem entirely. Think about it.
>>
No. 71125 ID: 5d121c

Really all I really want at this point is a deva with rebirth as an element.

Having something to balance and/or forever feed Kairosa's devour everything mentality would be great.

More than that, if we made a healing or mending soul of rebirth or something. I can't think of a problem in Creation we couldn't fix some day. Up to and including tweaking the three spheres cataclysm. The cataclysm itself is supposed to be a rebirth of all of Creation brought to a temporary stop by the sacrifice of Haht'hek, and we could do it better. Instead of She Who Lives In Her Name fighting with the dragon of time, we could do it as a synergy of those two forces and fix all the problems it caused in the first place.

Just using this as an example mind you, not saying this is something we should be doing.

I suppose it might step on some toes though. I doubt anything in the Underworld would like rebirth as a concept, especially the Neverborn and oblivion.
>>
No. 71126 ID: cee89f

>>71059
On Saulanna's element... Reading through the second thread again, I noticed something interesting. I wasn't here when this happened so I don't know if this was brought up, but when Saulanna is considering eating the soul, the four virtues for LQ are bolded.

The interesting thing is that the word Will is also bolded, like it's equally important, despite the fact there doesn't appear to be a stat for it on the social combat screen, iirc. And Wordblood said previously that creating a Will soul oneself is absurd, but he thinks Oramus has one, meaning it can at least exist.

One other thing: we've been told souls are fragments of Will shaped to a specific purpose. If Peregrin cleaned out 'our entire metaphysical house', what would that leave besides soul, which is made out of will?

Seems to support the idea that Saulanna's element may eventually be Will.

... I could be wrong.

>>71122
I guess. Emotion just strikes me as something that could easily backfire.

>>71124
'Rebirth' seems to be a sure-in (shoe-in?) for an element at this point, for good reason.

My proposed Devas (exact order is subject to change):
Purpose - Element

Healing - Rebirth
One, this is a very dangerous world. We need a healing soul asap. Two, a healer could probably help alleviate the pain of the birthing process for future devas. Maybe through divine anesthetic or something. Heck, in a pinch, this deva could form a combo power with Kairosa to speed up our healing factor even further than having a doctor in our heads already would.

Stealth - Masks or Awareness
I'd really prefer masks with this one... the issue we have at the moment isn't so much that we need to hide, as the fact we need to keep our titanic nature secret. Not only could we look like a Moon Hero instead of a titan, we could look like a regular mortal, or even just someone that someone else trusts or has every reason to ignore.
I'd be okay with Awareness, though. It does some of the same things and would probably let us create illusions to fool others (an idea I personally find iffy at best, but that's a personal nitpick)
This one's kind of a stretch (and I only just thought of it, so it's probably full of holes) but I feel a Mask deva's illusions would be less powerful since it would be able to affect less, but last longer, like putting on a mask.

Seeing - Truth/Reality[b]
Truth and Reality have been discussed already. Both would work great, imho, and I'm leaning towards Reality with Truth as a subsoul. But as brought up here >>71122 it's rather contrary to our current goal of 'stay hidden from creation as much as possible', so we should probably wait on it.


[b]Protection/Defense - War/Bloodlust

'Peace through superior firepower' seems to be the MO of pretty much everybody in the setting, especially Lunars. A war deva would have the strength, bloodlust and intellect of, say, Ares, but a defensive purpose will temper those urges and direct them to the protection of others.

Aide - Growth
I REALLY don't think we should double down on any purposes unless we have to (at least for now) but if we're going to use a growth deva, we should probably make it an Aide. Wordblood's main concern with such a deva was that it would be difficult to control and never sit still. If it's an Aide, it would be naturally inclined to help others grow. Like a teacher. It might be a problem for Wordblood since he's already an Aide, but like I said, we probably shouldn't double down on purposes for a while anyway.

Question: how do people feel about 'Art' as an element? As a lord, or as a noble under Wordblood?
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No. 71127 ID: 76b151

Personally I prefer the idea of a crafting\maker soul of Rebirth instead of a healing\mending soul. You can't heal something destroyed or dead. But perhaps you can remake it out of the pieces of what it once was.

As for a Seeing Soul make its element Secrets or Hidden Things.

For the Stealth soul it kinda tickles my fancy to make that one Truth. The best lies always have an element of truth to it. And such a soul can call upon that saying for power if I'm understanding the setting right.

As for the rest of the suggestions right now we're incredible young. I can't see us having more then 3-5 devas in this stage of our lives.
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No. 71128 ID: 19b3c3

>I can't see us having more then 3-5 devas in this stage of our lives.
And we already have 4 (Queen, Wordblood, Kairosa, Greenie) all of which are fairly underpowered and could use upgrading before we expand again. Not to mention we don't know how long it will be until Saulanna feels up to ripping off a piece of her soul again, and we have quite a few immediate real world problems to resolve before we'll have a chance to worry much about developing out inner world again.
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No. 71129 ID: 1c60e6

>>71126
>Will
Nicely observed!

>War
Hm, War brings to mind armies and strategy. It would muster the inhabitants of our Inner World into a coherent defense force.
It would probably work, but:
*The Maiden of Strife might notice/take offense.
*War would become one of our themes as a Titan; what Saulanna is about.
*Elements must be easy to divine, given how they seem to be public knowledge, while purposes are not. Upon investigating us, people would go: "Aha, a War Soul! Attack her before she starts a war against us!"
Having peaceful themes OTOH would make people underestimate us (Whereupon our Warrior of Love would use her frilly wand to strike them down in the name of the Moon!).

A Warrior of Intelligence would probably be similarly focused on Strategy/Tactics, though it's iffy seeing as how Wordblood wants a Thought Noble.

>Growth
True, that's my reasoning as well; putting an active element with a passive purpose and vice versa seems like it would keep things stable.

>Multiple Aides
This should be OK, since like Seeing Devas, Aiding is fairly passive. I mean, if we had multiple Feeding Souls, they'd probably try to eat each other, and I imagine multiple Warrior souls would constantly fight unless they had very passive elements. (Intelligence + Love?)

>Art
Art can be said to be a form of communication, so probably a Noble under Wordblood.
Relatedly, HWBtUW had a Beauty Deva. Art could be a good subsoul for a Crafting Deva of Beauty, for example.
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No. 71131 ID: 19b3c3

>additional aides
>should be okay
I would like to point out that 'okay' and 'permissible' are two very different things. If you haven't noticed before, Wordblood can be insecure. We've offended him and hurt his feelings before. Especially in instances where we marginalized him, or considered Devas with close roles to his own.

Multiple aides might be allowed, but I think the interpersonal problems it would raise wouldn't be worth it, long term.
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No. 71132 ID: 1c60e6

>And we already have 4
5, counting our Hero Soul, which may or may not grow into a full-blown Deva as soon as it figures out how to adapt to a diet of Titan's Will.
Hm, what do you figure it will become?
Trickery - Nature?
Adaptation - Chaos?
Aide - Heroism?
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No. 71133 ID: 1c60e6

>Wordblood can be insecure
OK, good point.
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No. 71134 ID: cee89f

>>71128
I guess, if nothing else, it'll be an interesting thought experiment to assume that we'll get one more deva, tops.

>>71127
>Personally I prefer the idea of a crafting\maker soul of Rebirth instead of a healing\mending soul. You can't heal something destroyed or dead. But perhaps you can remake it out of the pieces of what it once was.
Er... I don't get this argument. It's a rebirth deva, it can 'rebirth' things that are destroyed or dead >_> Why would it be any worse at that as a Healing soul than a Crafting soul?

>>71129
>Bad reaction to war
Maybe. Alternatively they could think "Shit, we shouldn't start a fight with this chick".

>Uranus
Maybe, but she's the Maiden of Strife. She's probably going to be a problem anyway.

>Warrior of Love
When Defender of War was brought up, i think this was mentioned as a nice partner for it... but... Wordblood told us that a Love deva would have difficulty harming anything or helping us harm anything. We might get a Jedi deva (YES!) that defends others through compassion and avoids killing when it can (HELL YES!!), or we might get a Deva who resents and rejects its own purpose.

>Strategy
...hm... that could work as an overarching theme... but it's not as active as War... Maybe with a War/combat noble deva?

>Multiple Aides
For Aides in particular I'm more worried how Wordblood will react to us suddenly getting someone else who can do his job. I mean, I guess we could change his purpose to a Social one, but he might take it personally.

And-
>>71131
>"Wordblood is insecure"
...Always beaten to the punch =P

>"Elements are probably easy to divine"
The impression I got was that Titans simply aren't secretive about it. Purposes are kept as a major secret, but elements of our lords are not.

Excuse me while I go look for something to back that up because I have the feeling Wordblood said SOMETHING about how easy it was to divine elements...
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No. 71135 ID: cee89f

... Oh dear.

Uh... I just found a really good reason to not share purposes. For a LONG while.
>"It's true. As for shared Elements within a deva, now, that's much more dangerous issue. Sharing Purposes usually causes war..."

Let's uh... avoid tearing our own insides apart, okay? They just started looking nice.
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No. 71136 ID: 5d121c

Id like it if we also had a soul of Light somewhere in there, sometime. It was said that it would bring us closer to Sol, the red sun and Luna, and partly Gaia as well. This seems like a good thing to me. We'll have to be sympathetic to some of the powers that be, and I'd prefer that to be the Incarnae over either any of the Yozi or the Neverborn. The only other option I can think of is Autochthon, and our lunar nature would make that difficult.

It was also said that Light is a very penetrating element. That would make it appropriate for a seeing soul or a warrior soul, in my opinion. Thoughts?
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No. 71138 ID: beeca1

>>71136
Can we have a seducer soul?
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No. 71139 ID: 76b151

>>71134
Unless I'm getting this wrong if you damage something enough even divine\titanic healing cannot mend it. Crafting\Making something on the other hand doesn't care about mending something broken. You have raw materials and a design and then you make it. The rebirth element allows you to in essence remake a thing that has been dead or destroyed.
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No. 71140 ID: 1c60e6

>soul of Light
We would become... the BLUE MOON.
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No. 71142 ID: 5d121c

>>71139
You're getting it wrong. A Titan acting within its strengths can do anything, full stop.

Also, we are already predisposed to doing things the "natural" way, and not engineering things.

>>71140
We could do that, literally. Though technically one of our Devas would be the blue moon, not the entire Titan.
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No. 71143 ID: cee89f

>>71136
If the main reason you want it is to become friendlier to the other gods, we could pick a social purpose for it. But the problem is we would eventually have the power to influence anything with a Light domain... though I guess we already do since we're a Titan...

...Which would mean Luna, Sol and everybody else would gain some influence over us without most of them losing anything. Good faith gesture, maybe?

>>71138
... Gonna pretend I think you're serious here.

Saulanna compared creating Kairosa to childbirth. A reproduction deva might actually be a practical idea in that light... Help us with deva-crafting and such. How about a Crafting Deva of Life? It could get seduction/reproduction as one of its nobles.

>>71140
>Pun
Booooooooo =P

>Actual idea
Eh... I like it, but I doubt Luna or any other celestial would.

>>71139
Correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument posits that:
-Healing devas can't fix something if it's been damaged enough. (which is untrue anyway, see >>71142 )
-Crafting devas can fix something if it's been rendered to raw materials.
-Rebirth devas can remake things.

But see, a Healing soul that also rebirths eliminates the disadvantage you posit, because it can remake something if it's too damaged for healing powers to fix.

Healing is also Wordblood's recommendation for a Rebirth deva, and a crafting soul strikes me as a soul that would be better at making new things than fixing the old.

(Also, before i forget... is it normal for the circle's dawn caste to have 36 bashing and lethal soak [and what I think is 8 health levels] at the start of an adventure? Because if so, I need to improve my night caste immensely)
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No. 71144 ID: cee89f

>>71142
>One of our devas
.......
*looks at the Hero Soul*
*looks at this post*

... Oh my.
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No. 71145 ID: 1c60e6

Come to think, everyone's always poaching Solar Exaltations. It's all about Solars, Solars all the time. What say we have Titanic!Saulanna borrow 10 or so Exaltations from Luna, show her SOMEONE appreciates Lunar Exaltations? Tinker a bit with them and we'll have our own BLUE MOON HEROES!
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No. 71146 ID: 5d121c

>>71144
I don't see what you're getting at.
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No. 71147 ID: 5d121c

>>71143
>If the main reason you want it is to become friendlier to the other gods

It's more about choosing sides. Cause you know it'll get down to that eventually. Untill it does get to that we can still make a Light deva and keep it a secret.

>...Which would mean Luna, Sol and everybody else would gain some influence over us without most of them losing anything. Good faith gesture, maybe?

We are a Titan. Gods are wired to be our servants, not the other way around. But yeah, it would likely help us have good relations with Incarnae.
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No. 71148 ID: c83d10

>>71145
And then Creation has 10 or so more insane power-mad Moon Heroes! Because The Moon is a changing thing, endlessly adaptive; thus does her gifted power make its own that which seeks to subvert them.

...Unless, yanno, we abuse the Curse-forged weakness and break the Exaltations, forcing more insanity onto the poor afflicted individuals than they would experience, creating deplorable monsters that need to be put down. That's also a route we could take.
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No. 71149 ID: cee89f

>>71145
Or she'll get pissed that we want to mess with her stuff. Just because she's a chill babe doesn't mean she ain't territorial.

>>71146
That we'll end up turning our Hero's soul into the blue moon if it becomes a more complete deva.

>>71147
Wordblood stated that if we have a Lord with a specific element, and a being that also embodied that element was more powerful than us, then they could influence us.

Sure, if push comes to shove, we're in charge, but it's less about the actual control and more about... well, like i said, good faith. Like a king sending his guards out of the room. It's not implying the King isn't in charge, more "I'm tryin' to be nice here".
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No. 71151 ID: 5d121c

>>71145
Lunar exaltations just tend to adapt to stuff, though. That might be the reason why Solar ones get used.

>>71149
>That we'll end up turning our Hero's soul into the blue moon if it becomes a more complete deva.

If it ever becomes a deva. Or we could make a seeing or warrior soul of Light, and have that become a new moon. Though I suppose there was that talk about how Luna got the way she is by eating a bunch of other moons. Who knows what would happen there. Multiple suns have a much better survival rate.

>they could influence us

I see what you mean. But I don't think it would matter until we revealed ourselves anyway. Especially since there's so many beings that could be said to embody the concept of light. There's what, 13 incarnae around right now?
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No. 71153 ID: beeca1

>>71143
I really was serious, but okay.
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No. 71154 ID: f9ab82

Tangential questions about Lunars in general:
With Lunar shapeshifting, are the forms they take on super-powered in the same way their normal forms are? For example, as a raccoon would we be (Might modifier) times as strong as a normal raccoon? If so, would Lunars with particularly dangerous animal forms like hippopotami potentially be more dangerous in those than in war-form?

If a Lunar has a totem with unusual abilities, do they get unusual powers based off of them? For example, could an electric eel Lunar shoot lightning bolts, or a hummingbird lunar make sixty upper limb movements (such as knife attacks) per second?
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No. 71192 ID: cee89f

>I see what you mean. But I don't think it would matter until we revealed ourselves anyway. Especially since there's so many beings that could be said to embody the concept of light. There's what, 13 incarnae around right now?

True... maybe we could wait until then and make the offer ourselves when we're inevitably dragged before the gods? We kinda have to convince them we're not going to be tyrannical despots.

>>71153
.... Oh. Good idea anyway.

>>71154
From a friend who's STing a 2e:
"A Lunar who shapeshifts adopts the physical traits of the animal into which he or she has transformed.

So a Lunar who turns into a raccoon is going to be as strong as a raccoon, regardless of whether it's his totem or not.

Secondly, no. But they could fluff their Charms or mutations they take as being benefits of their totem animal.

The exception to the first is Dexterity, but even that's after a Charm purchase; normally a Lunar is going to have the Dexterity of the animal whose form he has assumed, but with a certain Charm, he can use his natural Dexterity if it's better.

[later]

Though I'd like to point out that even taking the shape of a Tyrant Lizard might not be as beneficial as the warform, although it's bound to have a higher Strength."

And we know that in LQ, at least, you DO get extra powers from your totem form. We have an increased sense of touch and extra sneakiness from our raccoon totem... actually, i'm not so sure suddenly, was that caused by our beast senses ability or enhanced by it...

>>71151
(you can skip this if you like - it's rather silly)

In the interest of keeping us from being turned into an inside out prison cell i vote we just skip to the moon, if anything >_>

IIRC, when the first sun was made, DS was pissed that it left no shadows on Creation, so he tricked the king of the titans (who I assume was Malfeas) into making his pet project the Sun, which was so monumentally powerful they needed it to set every day or it would burn creation to cinders. So then they made a bunch of moons to fight to the death. And then the winner covered Sol's eyes and fell in love with Gaia.

So factoring in Samsara, what we get from that story is that creating a sun will ultimately lead to five deaths, an exile and a massive portion of our inner world burned to a crisp, and we'd need to make a moon anyway!

Our moon starting a relationship with Wordblood (the closest thing to Gaia we have at the moment) sounds pretty awesome until you remember that the original story ended with the King turned into an inside-out prison.

I don't wanna have the bad ending where Saulanna turns inside out! D=
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No. 71195 ID: 5d121c

>>71192
>maybe we could wait until then and make the offer ourselves when we're inevitably dragged before the gods? We kinda have to convince them we're not going to be tyrannical despots.

I think the point would be better made by doing it on our own and before we "have no choice".

>(you can skip this if you like - it's rather silly)...

Good points. We should make at least two devas of Light and have one of them be a sun and the other a moon.

But seriously, I don't think that samsara thing would make your scenario more likely than it would be otherwise. There are two suns in Creation at the moment, Sol and the red sun, and old green sun Ligier was locked up as a package deal because of the whole war.

If we ever started actually making celestial bodies we'd just do them in our own world way, way, way before having them appear over Creation.
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No. 71201 ID: 82b704

Just want to say I'm really rather against Light as an element for us because it's, you know, highly visible.
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No. 71215 ID: 5d121c

>>71201
But it's so intrinsic to an exalt already, especially a celestial exalt like us, that nobody would think it was noteworthy until we completely revealed our nature.
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No. 71217 ID: ef34de

>>71215
Firstly, a new titanic Light element may draw attention the way those other light aspects might not. Secondly, there may be conflict in element with our own quasi-deva hero soul. I mean sure we can't be sure it'll be a problem, but we can't be sure it won't either.
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No. 71218 ID: 1c60e6

>conflict between Light / Hero Soul
Yeah, probably best to see what kind of Deva our Hero Soul evolves into, first - though it's possible it'll try to fit itself an unoccupied niche. After all, it's got a whole lot of elements to choose from.
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No. 71219 ID: 5d121c

>>71217
You can say that about absolutely anything.

And why exactly do you think people would somehow see our light deva any more than they see WB or Kairosa?
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No. 71220 ID: 5d121c

>>71218
If it even will evolve.

Honestly to me it seems more probable it'll do what infernal exaltations are supposed to do once the infernal becomes a yozi. Just pack up and leave. Since we're doing basically the same thing, sans some of the yozi insanity.
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No. 71224 ID: 1c60e6

>>71220
Oh, but there's loads more story potential in having it evolve into a Deva :)
Plus, Lunar exaltations are pretty adaptable, and it's been established that ours is indeed adapting to its new environment.
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No. 71227 ID: 5d121c
File 137047413294.jpg - (46.94KB , 394x224 , Untitled.jpg )
71227

>>71224
Yeah, not saying it couldn't happen. We'd probably need to help it along a lot, though. And the exaltation itself might still split after we make a deva out of it, so they'd be more like copies if that makes sense.

I wonder if some big timeskipping will ever be done when the quest returns. We're basically guaranteed to not see any of these potential devas otherwise.
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No. 71228 ID: a316bb

The problem with designing new devas is that at the moment there are 2 unknown element devas:
1. Greenie (accidentally upgraded the curse into a proto deva when creating keirosa, and according to WB as a deva he should not with to harm us)
2. Riccyanna's mortal component (which is going to develop its own element, or already has one which is a secret)

Someone mentioned the exaltation being one with an unknown element but that is not correct, its element is "moon" and its purpose is "weapon".
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No. 71230 ID: 5d121c

>>71228
We can't do anything about greenie right now. A deva with light as an element, or a deva with healing or rebirth as an element or purpose might be able to interact with it quite well, though.

Saulanna's element is probably something in the neighbourhood of Will. At least that's what I got from that update where it was discussed as an element.

As for our spark being a "weapon soul of the moon", I don't think that's necessarily accurate. Probably close, but it seems to me to be too specific for an entity that's evolving and changing. It probably couldn't be said to possess those yet for real anyway, so we might be able to steer it to something that still fits the lunar mold but is different. We probably already are in fact.
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No. 71232 ID: 1c60e6

>weapon soul of the moon
It's a spiritual construct designed as a template for making mortals into demigods. That sounds to me like an Aide of Heroism. But there's loads of other potential purposes and elements connected to Lunars. Trickery, Survival, Adaptation, Nature, Chaos, Transformation, etc.
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No. 71233 ID: 5d121c

>>71232
Trickery was said to be one of the strong points of all the previous holders of our spark, yes. So you could say that's a prominent part of our hero soul.
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No. 71239 ID: cee89f

>>71228
Uh... no. No, we don't know that >_>' Where are you getting that from? (Provide citation)

Suggesting that it's just 'moon' rubs me wrong for two reasons:
1) 'Moon' sounds too specific for a lord soul.
2) Kairosa told us that the exaltation had a lot of themes to it besides 'moon'.

I'd go 'Heroism' for element and 'Sneaking' for purpose, maybe 'heroism', 'evolution' or 'growth'. A solar exaltation probably wouldn't adapt, but it would probably have the 'Perfection' element or... If i may go off on a tangent theory here?

Theory: Autocthon created the exaltations to act like... for lack of a better term, a demideva - like a deva, it was something inside your body whose power you could access as if it were your own. Unlike one, it didn't have enough awareness to form new devas, but it could enhance the person who had it and, when the hero died, automagically find a new one, one reason why they require very specific people to be in very specific circumstances. He then keyed them to match their representative god/goddess, and adapt a purpose that determines the kind of person they attach to. Dawns get combat purposes, for example, etc etc. The Infernals and Deathlords could change them so readily because they knew basically how devas worked already, but Autocthon's actual construction to create a demideva like this was so complex that it couldn't be replicated by anyone other than him, because he was the Great Maker and this was his greatest work.

... The theory, on the other hand, needs work. And citations.

That aside, if I had to choose right this second... I'd say a Heroism element and a Survival purpose (Wordblood said earlier that devas with the same element couldn't exist in the same titan, but when given different purposes they clearly outmatch each other in one area or another)

>>71233
Minor correction: sneaky, not tricksy.

>"I think this Hero Soul's hosts have all tended to be sneaky types! The stealthy magic's all gone and rubbed off on it."

>>71201
Our body is changing when we make new devas. They're all going to be highly visible.
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No. 71245 ID: 5d121c

>>71239

>sneaky soul of heroism

There, we already have a stealth deva. Good work team.

>highly visible

But in all of the cases we have ways to explain the changes. We're a lunar exalt. We're supposed to grow into odd shapes and/or glow. They might get bad ideas about us, but nothing that would make our titanic nature apparent.
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No. 71927 ID: 11d0f8

Hey I guess I'm taking up a name now. Let's see how long I remember to keep it.

So, Lunar Exaltations. Why does everyone want the Lunar Exalt to turn into a deva anyways? Wouldn't it kind of just give us Lunar powers, and act like a Moon Hero? That's pretty dull.

It seems more that a complete Construction like an Exalt would have to adapt a lot just to stay attached to a non-human body, and might just be trying to treat us as a sort of 'chimera' while attached to Saulanna's soul-self.

These Exaltations might also just channel their Incarnae's power into the heroe's soul, which would explain why Yozi Exalts can leave Devil Tigers without removing their powers. Pulling the Exaltation off of Luna's powerbase might just leave it an empty husk, Or we might not be even able to do that, and it'll be like trying to absorb Luna instead; which might be a bigger chain to her will, since we certainly can't beat her now.

Aaand after all of the logistical problems I can see, do you think the personification of a weapon made to defeat the Primordials would be happy being turned into a Deva? Or better yet, sharing a body with the manifestation of it's great curse? And it might still Be affected by the Great Curse; we've already seen how it affected Kairosa just trying to read it, what if absorbing the Hero Soul let's that sort of insanity into us?
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No. 71928 ID: c83d10

>>71927
All which is pointless, as the devafication process is automatic.

Only way out is death.
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No. 71930 ID: 5d121c

>>71927

>Why does everyone want the Lunar Exalt to turn into a deva anyways?

Saulanna is the lunar exalt. The two guys visiting us are lunar exalts too. You should call it an exaltation or the exaltation spark or the hero soul. Sorry about being pedantic but this is really throwing me off.

>Wouldn't it kind of just give us Lunar powers, and act like a Moon Hero? That's pretty dull.

We already have all of that, it's already doing that through us. It's supposed to be evolving beyond that. And it already is acting like a deva, which nobody expected. People wanna see where it might lead.

>It seems more that a complete Construction like an Exalt would have to adapt a lot just to stay attached to a non-human body, and might just be trying to treat us as a sort of 'chimera' while attached to Saulanna's soul-self.

It's already adapted. Lunar hero souls don't have problems with powering a chimera either. It's what they do.

>leave Devil Tigers without removing their powers

I was speculating about this before and I think it's very different here. Infernal exaltations are made out of solar ones, and those are pretty different from lunar ones. They don't adapt like ours is doing. There was some talk somewhere about how an exaltation is unremovable until the death of the host, but once an infernal turns into a yozi they aren't "human" anymore so it counts as death from the hero souls's point of view. Obvoulsy things are very different with our hero soul.

>Pulling the Exaltation off of Luna's powerbase

I doubt we could do this. It would probably be only possible for Autochthon.

>like trying to absorb Luna instead

Don't see how, the exaltations are completely separate from their patron god. The power doesn't come from Luna, it comes from the exaltation itself.

>Aaand after all of the logistical problems I can see, do you think the personification of a weapon made to defeat the Primordials would be happy being turned into a Deva?

It was also made by primordials and is currently working with primordials just fine. Someone speculated earlier about exaltations being a sort of proto-deva and I agree that that's probably the case.

>Or better yet, sharing a body with the manifestation of it's great curse? And it might still Be affected by the Great Curse; we've already seen how it affected Kairosa just trying to read it, what if absorbing the Hero Soul let's that sort of insanity into us?

The exaltation is what "infected" Saulanna with the great curse in the first place. Then that was passed on from Saulanna to Kairosa.
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No. 71945 ID: cee89f

>>71245
>But in all of the cases we have ways to explain the changes. We're a lunar exalt. We're supposed to grow into odd shapes and/or glow. They might get bad ideas about us, but nothing that would make our titanic nature apparent.
I was responding to his objection to a Light soul based on the idea that it would be highly visible by pointing out that /everything/ we did we be highly visible.
>>
No. 71949 ID: 5d121c

>>71945
Yeah, me too.
>>
No. 71985 ID: ef34de

I'm sure that a Light deva would cause a loss of subtlety beyond the literal glowy aspect, just out of theme. Unless maybe it were a stealth deva too, for what little sense that makes.

Really, I think our Hero soul is the closest to a light theme we should ever need.


Also I had a thought in why Wordblood is singularly unaffected by the Curse deva: he isn't a target. Saulanna is subject because she is a exalt and servant of Luna, and Kairosa was born from her soul as well so is also effected. Becoming a titan isn't enough to change that, although perhaps that is creating a conflict for Greenie? In any case Wordblood is essentially one of the original titans who created the curse (even if what remained of him didn't take part, he was on their side as it were) so he wouldn't be a target at all.

Another thing about the Curse deva is if it is an element under our domain does that mean we will have control over the curse itself in the future? As in, for its effect on all of creation? We could certainly use that to our advantage, if only Saulanna could be made aware of it to begin with.
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No. 71991 ID: 47a120

>>71230
>We can't do anything about greenie right now
That wasn't the point.
The point was that if greenie's element ends up being darkness, and we create another darkness deva, then the two would merge which is not good.
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No. 71992 ID: 47a120

>>71239
>Uh... no. No, we don't know that >_>' Where are you getting that from? (Provide citation)
I have no idea what you are asking me to provide citation for because you quoted an entire post.
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No. 71993 ID: 47a120

>>71239
>Suggesting that it's just 'moon' rubs me wrong for two reasons:
>1) 'Moon' sounds too specific for a lord soul.
>2) Kairosa told us that the exaltation had a lot of themes to it besides 'moon'.
Examples of known elements of lordly devas of the most powerful titans are: Fire, Water, Earth, Wood, Air, Time, Light, and Darkness.
How is "moon" more specific then "darkness" or "wood"?
>>
No. 71996 ID: 47a120

>>71985
>Another thing about the Curse deva is if it is an element under our domain does that mean we will have control over the curse itself in the future? As in, for its effect on all of creation? We could certainly use that to our advantage, if only Saulanna could be made aware of it to begin with.
This was the first thing I asked, and unfortunately no, it will just give us control over that part of it that is inside us rather then allowing us to just snap our fingers and alter the curse for every exalt in creation...

However, I extrapolate that if we meet an exalt in person we could manipulate their curse.

>>71985
Chosing EITHER light OR darkness would mark us as officially "holy/unholy" giving us a set of vulnerabilities (and extra damage) against opposing element, we were also warned that both the unconquered sun and the ebon dragon would BOTH be pissed at us if we choose either (that is, if we choose dark we piss both off, if we choose light we piss both off... for different reasons)
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No. 72000 ID: 14d963

Okay, I normally stay out of the discussion thread but guys...

Yes, we should definitely avoid making Light or Darkness Lords because that would set us against the Incarnae and/or the Dragon's Shadow. But there's another reason:

We know Kairosa has an affinity for the night sky, including the pretty sparkly lights in it.

She may want to have Light and Darkness Nobles someday. We should reserve those elements for her.
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No. 72001 ID: 2fc3e9

>>72000
Every single element that exists would set us against one or another god/Titan. The only solution to this is not to have any Devas at all, which is completely idiotic.

And your second point assumes that the first point is invalid anyway, since it implies that we would allow Kairosa to have Light or Darkness Lords.

Your first point is irrelevant and poorly thought out. The second point may be valid, but we should actually ask the entity in question before deciding that no, we cannot ever have a _________ Deva.
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No. 72007 ID: b9d767

Even if Saulanna doesn't herself develop a Lord Deva with a Light Element, some of her Noble Devas are likely to have Light or Darkness Elements to them. We ARE likely going to have some Light-based thematics, what with our Hero Soul.

Also, the "Blue Moon" idea stated earlier sounds totally awesome.
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No. 72011 ID: 5d121c

In fact, a light based deva would probably be THE most easy type for us to hide, excepting maybe a shape shifting deva or something. We're a celestial exalt after all.

I think Kairosa's horns and starfield effects and time and fate distortions might be a lot more obvious than that, for example.
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No. 72013 ID: 5d121c

>>71991
I sincerely doubt greeny has darkness as an element. It's just using the darkness in our world to hide, which makes sense for anthing trying to hide there.

Greeny's element is probably something like Curse, Pain or Insanity.
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No. 72017 ID: 1c60e6

>>72013
Yeah, I was thinking it was something like:
Corruption Deva of Mind,
Manipulation Deva of Emotion, or
Cursing Deva of Vengeance
Or some combination thereof, I guess.

Hey, I think Wordblood said at some point it was possible to invert a Deva. Developing Greenie into, say, a Cleansing/Blessing Soul of Forgiveness would be pretty cool :)
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No. 72019 ID: 5d121c

>>72017
Yeah, it would be cool. But a ton of work, seeing how it should already be a ton of work to even realize Greeny exists.
>>
No. 72021 ID: 82b704

>>72019
At the very least, if we do things right then we'll become aware of it when we're much stronger and it hasn't grown much. That should make such an alteration easier... assuming that we'd be willing to do that to ourselves. The way Wordblood was talking when we spoke about removing Greenie gives me doubt.
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No. 72027 ID: 47a120

>>72013
I would guess so, but my point was that until we DISCOVER what his element is, and what saulanna's element is, then creating additional devas is risky.
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No. 72028 ID: ef34de

Regarding Greenie, might it be possible to first grow it enough that it gets its own nobles, isolate its opposite from among them then uplift it to full lordly deva status, leaving Greenie as a noble under it? That should be less traumatic on our titanic self.
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No. 72030 ID: b9d767

Here's an idea for how we can try and get Greenie to develop without him doing his memory manipulation: commiting TW to having a Deva "develop naturally", as an outgrowth of our natural titanic abilities. This is only the cover story for it, though. In actuality the TW will be going to bring Greenie to full consciousness. He can't erase the memory of himself if we don't actually bring it up.
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No. 72034 ID: 5d121c

>>72027
I don't think this holds up either. Sure, creating them with the same element is a bad idea, but nobody said we wouldn't get a warning or an odd feeling about doing it. It just doesn't seem like one of those things that you could go through with all the way by mistake. Maybe trying to make a deva with the same element would actually be a good way to figure out what Greeny's or Saulanna's element is.

Maybe this already happened regarding Saulanna and a Will element.
>>
No. 72048 ID: 47a120

>>72034
>Will element
IRRC WB said that Will as a deva's element is recursive, probably the most powerful element you can have for a deva, and currently beyond the power/skill of Susanna to create such a thing.
So I seriously doubt we are a will element
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No. 72049 ID: 5d121c

>>72048
That argument doesn't work against Saulanna having a Will element, only against us making a Lord deva with a Will element.
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No. 72055 ID: 82b704

The problem with will is that it is like giving up control to the deva involved. It would be the willful one, the leader and the decision maker. Only the King or Queen of a titan should be anything close to that. Now whether that means Saulanna is actually a will elemental is harder to say, we can't rely on her response as evidence because any titan should feel the same way about a deva of will.
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No. 72065 ID: 1c60e6

Huh. Just realized what Saulanna's tent is for.

No seriously, this might spoil that glorious moment of understanding when Saulanna's tent shifts into its final form, someday in the far-off future. Unless I'm wrong, of course.

Okay, so Wormblood has his library, to aid in understanding. Kairosa has her Stonehenge, to measure and harvest Time energy. And Saulanna has her primitive, dawn-of-man tent, to do... whatever it is she's going to do. She doesn't know yet! There is no purpose in going inside the Tent - because Saulanna *herself* has no Purpose. The tent will become defined, as her Element, Purpose, and possibly Heart's Desire become defined. Then, it will become her place of work; where she goes to Do Her Thing.

...Which by extension means that at least her Purpose is undecided, rather than undiscovered. (Still hoping we'll have a Will element... Something like a Crafter of Will sounds like a pretty sweet gig.)


...For totally UNRELATED REASONS, I think we should start hauling TOOLS AND MATERIALS into our Inner World. Maybe Saulanna will find that her true CALLING lies in the CRAFTING, CREATING or TINKERING side of things. She certainly has the required SMARTS and COMPETENCIES for it. She just hasn't had the OPPORTUNITY.

And it would be pretty useful to be able to make any DEVICE we need in no time flat, right?
Or any CONSTRUCT of TITAN'S WILL, once we reach Titanic levels of skill...
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No. 72069 ID: 47a120

>>72065
Yes, I believe we also got a distinct in character warning that going in there now is premature.

Remember what kei said? Looking into the future SETS it and makes it immutable. The future is not set until and unless you look at it.
Saulanna's tent is the same, her element is unset for now, going in there and looking at it will set it, but to something crappy... if we wait until she matures some more then it will become the right time to go in there and set it to somthing awesome
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No. 72072 ID: 5d121c

>>72065
Why would Saulanna be a crafting soul? THat doesn't make any sense. She hasn't done anything to do with crafting. Her purpose should be something to do with her being a sneaky lunar archaeologist or maybe the whole Titan Queen thing. Probably the Queen thing, since the archaeologist was mostly wiped away.

Queen of Will?
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No. 72073 ID: 47a120

>>72072
I am a horrendous power gamer and even I think "queen of will" is going too far.

>>72065
crafting is not really what we have her as. Sure it has its uses but its not the kind of personality we crafted thus far. And I don't see a compelling reason to switch to it.
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No. 72077 ID: 1c60e6

>>72073
Well, do we have a coherent theme at all, at this point in time? By my tally, our prominent character traits are:
*helping people in need,
*being clever and thoughtful,
*seeking peaceful solutions,
*being nervous and secretive.
*panic-gobbling souls of mostly bad people,
*and comforting people with hugs.
We've only got a day and a half of character building, so far, so we're still mostly a blank slate - and the reason we haven't crafted much is that we've literally *never held a tool in our hands* (well, discounting weapons).
And even so, we still made that vine harness thing in chapter 1, and put together a pretty nifty dress in chapter 2.
Now when we have means and opportunity presented to us, crafting might well grow into a natural part of who we are.

What Purposes would you say are consistent with Saulanna's personality?
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No. 72079 ID: 5d121c

>>72073
>too far

Well I don't see anything else fitting better.

Her function is being a queen. Of her titanhood and of the place that Peregrin provided to her. Or maybe she's more of a owner or something there, she didn't actually do any ruling yet.

Maybe we'll find something better once the next thread comes around.
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No. 72080 ID: 1c60e6

>Queen Purpose
That doesn't really make much sense to me. Saulanna IS *already* the Queen - it's a Title, not a Purpose. When Wordblood was the fetish soul of HWBtUW, he was probably part of the Aide of Words or something, which was *also* the King.

I mean, I can see Malfeas having a Ruler Purpose, but he had this "Lord of all I survey" thing going where he was the Holy Tyrant, King of Creation.
Saulanna just rules herself, and now Peregrin.
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No. 72081 ID: 5d121c

>>72080
I suppose that makes sense.

So what do you propose her purpose to be?
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No. 72083 ID: 82b704

>>72073
The way I see it is since a human soul is normally such a wisp of a thing, there is literally nothing to it but a mote of Will, thus when uplifted to being the King or Queen of a new titan Will is automatically the element. I'm sure that could be changed but it would take effort.

Also, I don't see what exactly is power gamer about it. Will is almost like a blank or vanilla element, the only thing you can have when it isn't anything else.

>>72081
...Being? Alternately, she doesn't have one yet. I mean literally none. So what if it breaks the rules, we're a goddamn titan.
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No. 72084 ID: 1c60e6

>>72081
Same as with her Heart's Desire, we probably won't get to choose; rather, it'll be decided from her actions and attitudes as an aggregate.

That said, if we encourage Saulanna to take up crafting as a hobby and she takes to it, Crafting becomes one of the possibilities. Plus it's a useful set of abilities in its own right.

I think it would be sad if our (justified) wariness and (probably traumatic) future experiences turn Saulanna into an Escaping Deva, or a Survival Deva.
Also, given that Will seems a likely element for her, and it's a fairly aggressive one, an aggressive Purpose like Growing, Fighting or Controlling might be bad... for the world in general.
Rather, I'm hoping for a passive yet constructive Purpose like Aiding, Crafting, or Creating. Reactive ones like Rescuing or Healing might also work.

A Crafter of Will seems like a powerful and unique combination, and in any case, doing some crafting at this point uses abilities and materials we have readily available, while at the same time, our current priorities mean that we're not likely to make a Crafting Deva anytime soon.

Still, I'm betting a Queen's Purpose is strong enough to unite Devas sharing it. Autochton probably has a bunch of Crafting Devas, led by a Crafting Deva, and Wordblood was probably largely composed of Aides.
Which if true means that we could likely go for Aiding as a purpose without treading on Wordblood's feet.

Has anyone else got suggestions for cool Purposes we might shoot for?
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No. 72087 ID: 5d121c

>>72084
Maybe Growing would be better than Crafting? I suppose Crafting is a lot closer to the wild and untamed than a lot of other concepts we've talked about before, but it's still seems uncomfortably close to me.

I like Survival a lot. That would actually fit well, seeing how everything we've done until now has been about survival. It fits together with Will too, surviving in the wild is mostly a matter of willpower even for a regular human. Survival is also one of the strongest lunar themes.

A Survior of Will?


I still don't see why you want to overlap Purposes so much. It's been confirmed to not be a good idea. Two Lord Devas with the same Element absorb each other, two Lord Devas with the same Purpose go to war with each other.

We have one Aide, let's keep it that way.
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No. 72096 ID: 47a120

>>72083
>thus when uplifted to being the King or Queen of a new titan Will is automatically the element.
I don't want to use the word impossible... but it is extremely difficult to create a will element due to the recursion issues.
And I see no reason why being a king or queen automatically elevants a tiny wisp of nothingness (human soul) into will deva and not any other deva.
The elemental of humanity makes far more sense, or just having no element at all as being a protodeva in the process of forming (just like how greenie is not a full deva yet but a proto deva in the process of forming)
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No. 72105 ID: d78743

>>72096

There was this;

>Saulanna actually... doesn't like that, herself. Or... well, not that she doesn't like it - the concept of Will actually seems very appealing! But the thought of making a deva based in that Element feels distinctly uncomfortable. She's not sure why; but she feels a little insulted by the suggestion, somehow. She feels an implication in it that she's deficient in terms of willpower, herself. She'll manage it eventually!

Reminds me a great deal of Wordblood's reaction to Devas whose elements we were suggesting for reasons that step on his turf. If Saulannna's Element is not Will, I'd bet money that it's ridiculously close.
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No. 72106 ID: 5d121c

>>72105
That's the reason people are rooting for Will as Saulanna's element, yes.

>>72096
Recursive absurdity may not be what Wordblood likes, but I think that's just because of his nature. A lot of Titans thrive in it.
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No. 72111 ID: cee89f

>>71992
This:
>its element is "moon" and its purpose is "weapon".
We don't know that.

>>71993
A moon is a specific, solitary thing. It's not a primordial element that other things spring from, it's just the Moon and it's associated with a ton of other things.

>>72106
Wordblood also said he wasn't sure it was possible to make it ourselves.

however, he also said Oramus has a Will soul, so there's a possibility to make it. If Saulanna can't make a Will soul through TW but a will soul CAN exist, then a Will soul would have to will /itself/ into existence. And if that were the case, (see >>71126 ) Saulanna would be the perfect candidate, if not the only one, out of the options we currently posses.

>>72034
I could see a Titan doing that for, say, her commoners, but nobles? Lords? Can we even do that?

>>72105
Maybe.

>>72079
>Queen soul
... Wordblood implied that Queen was just a designation. Like, 'this is the deva who makes our final decisions'. A manager may decide what an employee does, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a job on the sales floor.

And if this is the case what happens when a new soul becomes King/Queen? Would Kairosa stop feeling hungry if she became Queen? ...come to think of it, Wordblood implied that gender was decided through a combo of element and will, and it's been thoroughly established that personality is also the result of such. Would Kairosa's entire identity change if she became the Queen soul?

>>72083
... There's a 'goddamn batman' joke here somewhere...

>>72081
Maybe her purpose will be her Heart's Desire, whatever that may eventually be?
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No. 72112 ID: b9d767

>>72105
I'd have to agree on that. Something close to, or related to Will is probably what her Element is. Given that Willpower is usually connected to self-control, and how she is her own Queen, it makes it seem even more likely.
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No. 72113 ID: 5d121c

>>72111
>I could see a Titan doing that for, say, her commoners, but nobles? Lords? Can we even do that?

Why not? It seems reasonable to assume that's the way things happen. More reasonable than a whole Deva creation going smoothly until someone yells "We already had that element! Oops!"

>Devas changing Purposes

I don't know if that can happen easily, but if it would I would assume that a significant part of their former personality would remain in place. Or not, the Yozis changed a lot when they were imprisoned, so who knows.

>A moon is a specific, solitary thing.

Not necessarily. You could try to say the same thing about a sun and look at how many of those are around. We already know that there used to be a bunch of moons other than Luna. So you could call it a general concept. I agree that it probably doesn't fit as an element, but I don't think we can say that it's a more specific thing than, say, wood.
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No. 72114 ID: 82b704

>>72096
>And I see no reason why being a king or queen automatically elevates a tiny wisp of nothingness (human soul) into will deva and not any other deva.
Well maybe my understanding of it is flawed, but I was seeing less recursion and more of a purest form of titanic energy. Difficult for other titans because they were always some other manner of idea to begin with. Humans on the other hand already are of the Will element on account of there being nothing else to work with.

But my other idea was that Will is insulting to the King or Queen simply because of what it represents and that implies nothing more. Which would leave us out of dark again in terms of what our element is, of course. I'm hoping it's simply Will.

For Purpose let's not get distracted by small scale stuff. Purpose is about how the deva interacts with existence itself, building things as a hobby couldn't make her a crafting soul. She would have to be building as part of Her Thing, some grand project that would change Creation itself. Not out of the question to happen, but I'm leaning against it. This is a question that will be answered far later, in any case.

>>72111
>Maybe her purpose will be her Heart's Desire, whatever that may eventually be?
Her Purpose will stem from her desire, of that I have no doubt. But there would still be a difference, and one or the other could change independently. For instance if our hearts desire is "Fixing Creation" we could have a purpose of "Change". If we managed to do that our purpose may change to "Protection" so as to defend those fixes.

>>72113
Saulanna is a child titan, changing purposes as she grows is entirely possible. But that is mostly because she is gaining in power, another manner of Deva would need to be growing, weakening or being reconfigured to a similar degree. The latter would do more to change personality than the former two, I think.

And Moon is a silly element. Although the nobles that would have might be interesting. But it is very likely that the hero soul is made out of Heroism with a purpose of either Survival or Stealth.
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No. 72115 ID: 1c60e6

>"The Moon" as an element
I don't see it as invalid, myself, but then I'm a fan of Nobilis, where you can be the God-king of concepts like Breakfast, Fan fiction, Platypuses or Stubbing Your Toe. Titans seem pretty similar to Imperators, to me, especially in Jukashi's version of Exalted.

Elements canon to Lunar Quest include Beauty and Legacy, so we know concepts are valid Elements.
"The Moon" has enough metaphysical weight that it might work as a concept, and maybe as an element. I doubt our Hero Soul will turn out to have it, but it might be possible.

I'm curious as to whether we can get a non-existent element, sometime in the future. Did Fire even exist before the first Fire Deva came into being? If the Deva is what defines the element and not the other way around, we could go nuts with Elements like "Computers", "The Afterlife" or "Apotheosis", and after we become full-fledged Titans, we can influence Creation to make them into Things That Happen.
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No. 72116 ID: 5d121c

>>72115
"The Moon" still just feels wrong to me. "Moons" feels wrong too, but at least that isn't a direct reference to an incarna. Maybe if we called it "The Blue Moon" or something... but even then this just seems like something that the Deva could be on the side. We'd make a Deva of Light and it would manifest as a moon once it got a strong presence in creation.

There's more to them than purpose and element (which I think would be fair to say are just Jukashi's tools for making Deva creation simple on an imageboard, and not much more than that). Just look at all the different things Wordblood and Kairosa are. You could argue that "Dragons" are just as valid an element as "Words" are and where would that get you for figuring out Wordblood?


Making a whole new element to be a part of Creation is way, way bigger than just making a Deva I think. We already are doing it in our inner world but we'd probably need to timeskip for centuries if we wanted to do it in Creation.
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No. 72120 ID: cee89f

>>72113
...Let me rephrase. A 'moon' is a specific object tailored to a specific purpose, like a soul. Sure, there's more than one of them, but that doesn't mean they're... well, primordial.

>Wood

Wood is an element found in pretty much everything alive. It's a material, not the construct.

>Why not? It seems reasonable to assume that's the way things happen. More reasonable than a whole Deva creation going smoothly until someone yells "We already had that element! Oops!"

Funny as that mental image is, I'm pretty sure a deva would be able to tell if something of that nature already existed within it :p I'm not saying it /couldn't/ happen, just that it seems... off?

>>72115
>I'm curious as to whether we can get a non-existent element, sometime in the future. Did Fire even exist before the first Fire Deva came into being?

Those devas probably formed with Gaia herself in the Wyld.

>If the Deva is what defines the element and not the other way around, we could go nuts with Elements like "Computers", "The Afterlife" or "Apotheosis", and after we become full-fledged Titans, we can influence Creation to make them into Things That Happen.

It seems to me that the reason we need to define the concept ahead of time is to frame Saulanna's thoughts. (bear with me) The concept we choose isn't because the deva will be defined by the word, but because it will be defined by our perception of the word. For instance, Kairosa was born out of Saulanna's soul, with Wordblood crafting it into a proper deva and the hero's soul doing Luna-knows-what.

When Wordblood answered why he was a dragon, why Kairosa identified as female or why he identified as male, his answer was basically 'it just is'. But the justifications he guessed at were ideas tied both to their own central themes (feeding and communication) and their purposes. Now, we can't exactly speak for HWB, but when we made Kairosa, we weren't exactly considering "Hey, this thing'll be female because it eats things and gets TW from it". Wordblood, on the other hand, had the idea in his head when prompted. So Wordblood's perception of feeding helped make Kairosa female.

The reason we need a concept in our heads is we need to understand the idea we're going for. Have you ever tried explaining baseball to someone who's never seen it played?

... Just a theory =/

>Computers
Saulanna has no idea what a computer is. We try and make a computer deva, we won't be able to because she'll have no idea what we're talking about.

Not to say we couldn't do it eventually, but we'd have to phrase it in a way she understands.

And from a meta standpoint, there's only so many concepts that don't already exist in exalted we could come up without pulling something out of thin air and sooner or later Jukashi has to put his foot down on things he couldn't or wouldn't draw.

>Afterlife
Like the underworld? It's been long established that it is bad for Creation since it takes souls out of the wheel of Reincarnation.

>Apotheosis
...it's called 'Exaltation' :p
>>
No. 72121 ID: 47a120

>>72111
WB said that the exaltation spirits are designed to be weapons
As for its element being moon... well that is pretty damn obvious considering its all about "moon powah"
>>
No. 72122 ID: 47a120

>>72111
>A moon is a specific, solitary thing. It's not a primordial element that other things spring from, it's just the Moon and it's associated with a ton of other things.
"it's just the moon" is like saying "it's just time"
And things do spring from it, see moonsilver; and lunar exaltations.

>>72115
>I'm curious as to whether we can get a non-existent element, sometime in the future. Did Fire even exist before the first Fire Deva came into being? If the Deva is what defines the element and not the other way around, we could go nuts with Elements like "Computers", "The Afterlife" or "Apotheosis", and after we become full-fledged Titans, we can influence Creation to make them into Things That Happen.

Titans create the elements not vice versa. The concept language was created by wordblood himself during his time as he who bleeds the unknown word.
We could invent wholly new concepts. Although computers are less of a concept and more of an object.
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No. 72123 ID: 47a120

>we could go nuts with Elements like "Computers", "The Afterlife" or "Apotheosis"
I came up with a good example of a new "element".

The states of matter are: Solid-Liquid-Gas-Plasma
We could add a new state of matter to reality... say, "intangible"

Or come up with an emotion that doesn't exist, invent it (now mortals have it).

It is all very nebulous and very hard to conceive of proper examples
>>
No. 72126 ID: 1c60e6

>>72121
>Weapon purpose
My impression was that their purpose was to make *mortals* into living weapons, not to be wielded in combat themselves. It's the difference between a sword and a sword smith - the latter would have a Crafting Purpose if it was a Deva.

...You know, a Deva with a Weapon Purpose would make for the coolest daiklave imaginable, once we could manifest it outside ourselves.

Back to point: If Exaltations were weapons instead of enablers, then Ghosts of Exalted would have no more power than the ghost of a mortal, and upon Exaltation, the next host would immediately gain the abilities the previous host had developed.
My familiarity with Exalted is limited, but from what I gather, this is not the case.
>>
No. 72135 ID: 1c60e6

By the way, I made a quick list of our various Devas and their abilities. I thought it'd be handy to refer to. I might copy it to the wiki later, unless someone else does it first.
Anything I've forgotten or gotten wrong?

Our Souls and Abilities:

Saulanna (? / ?): Soul Force 3 - 3 TW
*Inherent abilities: Shape-shifting, Gain shapes, Stat Boost.
*Moon abilities: Mask Sneak, Black-stripe Thief, Scent of Victory, Inner Den, Moon Claws, Flowing Defense, Beast Senses, Sight Beyond Sight.

Total value: 3+ TW

Wordblood (Aide / Words): SF 3 - 3 TW
*Inherent abilities: Language Auto-success, Twisty Words, Book Devouring, True Name Finding.
*World Reading lvl 2 - 3 TW - Wordblood can read the stats of others.
*Breath of Life - ? TW - Wordblood can sustain living creatures.
*Seeing the Tongue Slip - 1 TW - See hidden meanings and unsaid words in speech.
*Voice in the Dark - 1 TW - Wordblood can send telepathic messages (True Name -> extra range.
*Titan's Blessing - 1 TW - Let's Wordblood give a +[his SF] boost to another for a helpful/linguistic act.
*Power Word: "Stop" - 1 TW - stops movement (including falling), interrupts spells.

Total value: 10+ TW

Kairosa (Feeding / Time): SF 3 - 3 TW
*Inherent abilities: Flawless Timing, Power handling, Soul Devouring, Oracle of History.
*Will Generation lvl 3 - 6 TW - 1 TW per month in base state.
*Efficiency of Consumption lvl 2 (+1 specialty bonus) - 3 TW - Get more TW from eating Ghosts.
*Ease of Consumption lvl 2 - 3 TW - Eating ghosts is quicker and harder to resist.
*Power Compression - ? TW - commit 3 points of Power, increase Power regen.
*[Power Collection] - ? TW - commit 5 points of Power, increase TW regen.
*[Power Reconstitution] lvl 1 - ? TW - undo TW expenditure, 1p. Requires SF4 for upgrade.
*[Taste of History] lvl 1 - ? TW - read the history of an object or person.
*Forked Path Oracle - 1 TW - tell which of two options are most "favorable", given criteria for this.

Total value: 10+ TW

Hero Soul (?/?): SF ???
Inherent Abilities: Grant Stat Increase, Grant Moon Ability, Soul Fire, Adaptation.

"Greenie" (?/?): SF: ???
Inherent Abilities: Mind/Memory manipulation
>>
No. 72137 ID: 1c60e6

Interesting thought I had:
If the Hero Soul increases stats and gives abilities to the soul it's tethered to... maybe it will expand its operation to Wordblood and Kairosa?
I can imagine WB being confused when his Inspiration is suddenly raised at the end of a chapter ;)
>>
No. 72143 ID: 5d121c

>>72123
It's not THAT inconceivable. Just take Vitriol or Autochthon's elements as examples.
>>
No. 72144 ID: 5d121c

>>72137
We already talked about this with WB I think, and the answer is no.
>>
No. 72152 ID: 47a120

>>72126
>Back to point: If Exaltations were weapons instead of enablers, then Ghosts of Exalted would have no more power than the ghost of a mortal, and upon Exaltation, the next host would immediately gain the abilities the previous host had developed.
I don't know about exalted in general. But in this quest:
1. The exaltation spirits undergoes a purge after the death of its last host. (someone does it, I forgot who)
2. The mortal souls of exalts are not all that, some live in the city we own and they aren't immediately obvious to the other ghosts.
3. There are different weapons to be a weapon. In this case the exaltation spirit modifies the host to be more powerful as they strive towards the heroic ideal.
>>
No. 72153 ID: 47a120

>>72135
You seem to have mixed the exaltation spirit and saullana's ex-mortal soul into a single deva even though they are separate in the inner world
>>
No. 72155 ID: 5d121c

>>72152
1.) The spark undergoes a purge of memories, not of ability. The spark should always be infinitely powerful IIRC... potentially. It's just that when it bonds with a new mortal the mortal needs to learn how to use it.

2.) Technically exalt ghosts don't have more power than normal ones, but you have to remember they have knowledge and skill far beyond mortal ghosts. Even without giving them raw power they can accomplish a lot more. And if they get empowered by something you can get things like Deathlords.

3.) That's just part of the process of getting better at using it if I understand it right. Nobody ever finds this much of a problem because if they weren't the type of person for it they wouldn't have exalted the way they did.
>>
No. 72157 ID: 3e35cc

>>Ghosts of Exalted
Looking it up online, the Hungry Ghost of an Exalt seems to get most of the raw Power, and can apparently get pretty nasty with a powerful Exalt.

>>mixed the exaltation spirit and saulanna's ex-mortal soul into a single deva
I have both "Saulanna" and "Hero Soul" listed. I'm assuming that the Hero Soul doesn't grant Moon abilities to itself, so I put them on Saulanna. Maybe I should move them to an entry called "Saulanna the Titan", though, leaving "Saulanna the Deva" empty?
>>
No. 72159 ID: 3e35cc

>There are different [ways] to be a weapon.
I'm saying that different ways of being a weapon would be represented by the Deva having different Purposes. A "Powering-up" kind of Deva would be, I dunno, an Aide or Muse or Idol - or just plain "Power-up".
It probably wouldn't have an official "Weapon" Purpose unless it was in fact wielded in order to cause harm, just like Saulanna wouldn't have an official "Queen" Purpose unless she had, like, mind-control powers.
>>
No. 72160 ID: 5d121c

>>72157
Oh yeah I forgot about the hungry ghosts. They didn't feature in lunar quest much.

As to moon abilities. It's probably the same as is with the other devas. You should list all moon abilities under the hero soul.

We really need Saulanna to get some of her own stuff. We were thinking about learning sorcery for this at one time, IIRC.
>>
No. 72161 ID: 5d121c

>>72159
I don't think an Aide would fit well with power-up. The closest that comes to mind there is sort of a squire or something.

...also what in the world does queendom have to do with mind control.
>>
No. 72163 ID: 3e35cc

>We were thinking about learning sorcery
I support this. Apparently we need to get to Soul Force 5 first; this should take seven days if Kairosa focuses on it. This would also make us better at resisting mind control, provide two bonus abilities and give more Moon Power, so I think it's a solid choice.

>list Moon Abilities under the Hero Soul
But if so, why do we get more Moon Abilities when *Saulanna* ups her Soul Force? Or is it the Hero Soul that we are upgrading?
>>
No. 72164 ID: 3e35cc

>..also what in the world does queendom have to do with mind control.
A Ruler of Will (assuming Saulanna's a Will Deva) would get abilities related to RULING over peoples' WILL -> mind control, and possibly ruling TW/Sorcery to boot.
To quote >>72073
>I am a horrendous power gamer and even I think "queen of will" is going too far.
>>
No. 72165 ID: 5d121c

>>72164
Never thought of it that way. I was just mixing purposes and elements that make sense together.

>>72163
Sorcery should be different for us than normal exalts. We would really be getting our own titanic powers.

>soulforce

I don't know. Why didn't you list power words under Saulanna? She's the one who used them.

The system seems a bit wonky.
>>
No. 72168 ID: c83d10

>>72165
>Sorcery/Power Words
Saulanna already has Sorcery: Power Words, the method of directly shaping the world inherent to Wordblood, and thus, Saulanna.

And, of course, since Power Words are an inherent ability of Wordblood, Power Words are listed under him.

>>72157
Yes, Saulanna-the-Titan (and possibly Saulanna-the-Moon-Hero) and Saulanna-the-Deva should be separate entries. The list is of the powers and abilities of the Devas, correct? Saulanna-the-Deva currently doesn't have any known powers.
>>
No. 72169 ID: 5d121c

>>72168
Power Words aren't Sorcery. Sorcery is titanic shaping of the world that the Dragon's Shadow created so that mortals and exalts could use it. Power words are titanic shaping of the world that Wordblood created so that mortals and exalts could use it. The thing is that Sorcery was made first and it put some laws into place or something. Saulanna needs to learn to do the shaping thing herself, without power words or spells. As Kairosa said, she could skip what mortals and exalts need to do when learning Sorcery. But the fastest way of doing it is still learning to do spells.
>>
No. 72172 ID: c83d10

>>72169
...So it is!

I had forgotten... Probably someone should put that up on the wiki?
>>
No. 72173 ID: 3e35cc

OK, shuffled about some stuff according to suggestions - I've put Lunar stuff and Power Words with "Saulanna the Titan". Here's the updated list of Devas/Abilities:


Our Souls and Abilities:

Wordblood (Aide / Words): SF 3 - 4 TW (Calculated as 1 + 1 + 2 TW)
*Inherent abilities: Language Auto-success, Twisty Words, Book Devouring, True Name Finding.
*World Reading lvl 2 - 3 TW - Wordblood can read the stats of others.
*Breath of Life - 0 TW - Wordblood can sustain living creatures.
*Seeing the Tongue Slip - 1 TW - See hidden meanings and unsaid words in speech.
*Voice in the Dark - 1 TW - Wordblood can send telepathic messages (True Name -> extra range.
*Titan's Blessing - 1 TW - Let's Wordblood give a +[his SF] boost to another for a helpful/linguistic act.
Total value: 10 TW

Kairosa (Feeding / Time): SF 3 - 4 TW
*Inherent abilities: Flawless Timing, Power handling, Soul Devouring, Oracle of History.
*Will Generation lvl 3 - 6 TW - 1 TW per month in base state.
*Efficiency of Consumption lvl 2 (+1 specialty bonus) - 3 TW - Get more TW from eating Ghosts.
*Ease of Consumption lvl 2 - 3 TW - Eating ghosts is quicker and harder to resist.
*Power Compression - 0 TW - commit 3 points of Power, increase Power regen.
*[Power Collection] - 0 TW - commit 5 points of Power, increase TW regen.
*[Power Reconstitution] lvl 1 - 0 TW - undo TW expenditure, 1p. Requires SF4 for upgrade.
*[Taste of History] lvl 1 - 0 TW - read the history of an object or person.
*Forked Path Oracle - 1 TW - tell which of two options are most "favorable", given criteria for this.
Total value: 11 TW

Hero Soul (?/?): SF ???
Inherent Abilities: Grant Stat Increase, Grant Moon Ability, Soul Fire, Adaptation.

"Greenie" (?/?): SF: ???
Inherent Abilities: Mind/Memory manipulation

Saulanna the Deva (? / ?): Soul Force 3 - 4 TW
Inherent Abilities: ???
Total value: 4 TW

Saulanna the Titan, Soul Force 9+ (3 + 3 + 3 + ? + ?)
*Inherent abilities: Shape-shifting, Gain shapes, Boost.
*Moon abilities: Mask Sneak, Black-stripe Thief, Scent of Victory, Inner Den, Moon Claws, Flowing Defense, Beast Senses, Sight Beyond Sight.
*Power Word: "Stop" - 1 TW - stops movement (including falling), interrupts spells.

Total Value of all Devas and abilities: 26+ Titan's Will
(Assuming TW 0 on abilities we got for free, and that Soul Force 1 costs 1 TW.)
>>
No. 72174 ID: 3e35cc

Also, this is as good a time as any to post some of the suggestions for new Abilities I've written down over the past month or so :

*Overcharged Aurora (Kairosa / Hero Soul)
When Saulanna gains power beyond her normal Moon Power capacity, such as when nomming on a soul or absorbing a small library, the left-over MOON POWER gathers in her SOUL FIRE for a second or two, and she can choose to spend it on a POWER-INTENSIVE TASK such as using Power Word: Book to create a library, Power Word: Moonsilver to make crafting material, or making sizable additions to her internal world. Drawback: Bigger and more visible SOUL FIRE.

*Sustain Ability (Kairosa)
Kairosa devotes a portion of Power recovery to maintaining an ability, giving it indefinite duration - lasting until cancelled somehow, or another ability is chosen instead. Further upgrades mean more abilities can be sustained at the same time.
I'm not sure this should even cost Power - we've been developing in this direction already, our buffs lasting naturally longer. Also, since devoting TW generation to a target is more efficient, devoting Power recovery to something should also be more efficient ;)

*Entropic Burst (Kairosa) OR Power Word: Entropy (Wordblood)
Channel the Devouring aspect of Time (Getting a bonus for Kairosa's Purpose+element?), withering an object or person to dust in seconds (or minutes if it's something durable like stone).

*Hiding in the Den (Hero Soul) or Time Skip (Kairosa)
Saulanna temporarily stores her Titan body inside the Inner World. Either this is for a set interval, or the "exit point" is fairly visible to sorcerous sight.
...We should totally get some smokebombs for that extra "Ninja Vanish!" feel.

*Scorn the Mortal Shell (Future Seeing Deva / Saulanna herself)
Negate the effects Beauty has on Saulanna in Social Combat, by making her eyes see the opponent's Soul instead of their body.
Possible upgrades: Instantly seeing through disguises, judging someone on the beauty of their Soul.
If this one is even possible for Saulanna to get now, it would be a good indication that she indeed has a Will Element. (Of course, even if she can't, that just might mean she needs to learn Sorcery first.)
>>
No. 72175 ID: 01531c

>>72174
>*Entropic Burst (Kairosa) OR Power Word: Entropy (Wordblood)
I want to ocombine these! Is it possible to have both Wordblood and Kairosa do somethigng at once, with extra cost, or all the cost?
>>
No. 72179 ID: 3e35cc

Also, I'm not averse to spending a point on "Swallow Your Passion", when we have some extra TW.
It is strictly speaking worse than Kairosa's variant of the same ability, but there are some possible advantages:
Firstly, spending TW on Greenie might stabilize it a little as a Deva.
Secondly, I can see this ability having interesting future upgrades, like "Berserk Rage", "Panicked Flight", or "Emotional Catharsis". Or maybe "Selective Repression", being able to bottle emotions separately - collecting Fear but not Anger, for example, or bottling up the contempt for a specific person, but not another.
Thirdly, Saulanna just might get a "feeling" that getting some of mentioned upgrades might require TW to be spent in some nebulous fashion first (That is, to upgrade the SF of Greenie).
Fourthly, the same way a Yozi can theoretically be changed by the charms an Infernal invents for it, we might change Greenie a bit by adding ability upgrades like "Digest Your Passion" at a later point ;)
>>
No. 72202 ID: cee89f

>>72122
>Implication that Time is comparable to the Moon as a primordial element

.... *deep breath*

... I'm beginning to doubt you're even trying to listen to me or understand what I am saying.

Let me say it as plainly as I can: A moon is a specific thing, not an element of a thing. It is a thing, built from something else. It is not an element.

A deva with a moon element is exactly like a deva with an element of a specific campfire. Even if it could happen at the lord level, it isn't as sure as you seem to think it is. You declared it as an absolute fact, as true as 'DS likes shadows' or 'Wordblood's skin broadcasts his thoughts'.

>>72174
>*Hiding in the Den (Hero Soul) or Time Skip (Kairosa)
... I thought the Inner Den was inside our world-body now? How would we get Saulanna inside her own world-body? ...Can titans even do that?

>*Scorn the Mortal Shell (Future Seeing Deva / Saulanna herself)
Personally I like it, but Saulanna can't form titan abilities herself yet.

>>72179
... Could we develop an ability to put those emotions we bottle into others?
>>
No. 72214 ID: 5d121c

>>72202
>inner den

Yeah, it should be possible. It is an actual physical world, not just pretend space or something. The actual doing may or may not be complicated or hard.

>develop titan abilities

This will probably be the first thing we do after getting rid of the whole situation with the moon heroes we have on our hands.

>put emotions into others

If we developed the bottling thing, we likely could develop a way to put emotions into others. But it would be unnatural mental influence and they'd get to save against it. And besides that, these are supposed to be OUR emotions, I think it could be pretty harmful to throw them away, even if they might "regenerate" or something.
>>
No. 72217 ID: 82b704

>>72202
>It is a thing, built from something else. It is not an element.
I'm not disagreeing with your argument at all, but technically we could add to the definition of "moon" as the stuff a moon is made of much the same way "earth" can refer to soil and such. Of course that doesn't have much of a place in creation besides the moon itself (and only Luna knows what the moon is actually made of) so we'd likely have to discover or outright invent the properties of "moon" and come up with some point to having it. "Substance that is not of the other 5 physical elements" is a good start there.

...All of this is just a thought exercise, none of this is a good idea. After all messing with "moon" automatically means messing with Luna. So let's not. But we might need to use this process at a later time for something else.
>>
No. 72224 ID: 0663fd

>>72217
I'm partial to the Nobilis 3e way of describing concepts - 3 to 7 properties who together should describe the *point* of the concept, so that someone who didn't catch the name can still have a pretty good guess what it is.
There's a bunch of them here: http://nobilis.me/estates

Plastic
...is made from the remains of broken-down life.
...stands outside the natural order.
...is cheap and easy to produce in bulk.
...takes well to molding and shaping.
...is isolating and resistant.
...is light and flexible.
...is thrown away without a care when it inevitably breaks.

Rain
...falls from heaven.
...is interspersed and broken up, non-contiguous.
...drums its rhythms everywhere it can reach.
...washes away filth and cleans the world anew.
...quenches the thirst of the Earth.
...births floods and rivers.
...makes plants grow.

Though I think inventing new elements, if we do it at all, will be a good bit into the future, assuming Wordblood approves in the first place.
>>
No. 72229 ID: 82da32
File 137124536862.png - (258.87KB , 463x462 , horny.png )
72229

>>72224

>explosions as an element
>>
No. 72255 ID: 47a120

>>72173
Very nice.

>>72169
The biggest implication of that is that saulanna can learn sorcery via training and effort without spending any TW. But she can't create new power words without spending TW.

As I understand it, saulanna is spending TW to make reality her bitch and make a new magic system and spells possible.

If you think about it, using it to create magicks that already exist (via sorcery) is a rather frivolous use of TW. Then again, sorcery is hard... it has backlashes, and long casting time that can be interrupted. So some things power words do better.

Also, its not frivolous if we have no other choice (eg, facing a challenge where we can't just go and study sorcery for a couple of months and then come back)
>>
No. 72256 ID: bf54a8

>>72255
well mortal sorcs need to use backdoors for the power, we can use the front door.
>>
No. 72262 ID: 47a120

>>72174
>*Entropic Burst (Kairosa) OR Power Word: Entropy (Wordblood)
>Channel the Devouring aspect of Time (Getting a bonus for Kairosa's Purpose+element?), withering an object or person to dust in seconds (or minutes if it's something durable like stone).
I am tempted to suggest that we call it "Power Word: Kairosa"... but it seems a bit too vague since she does so much more then just entropy.

>*Scorn the Mortal Shell (Future Seeing Deva / Saulanna herself)
>Negate the effects Beauty has on Saulanna in Social Combat, by making her eyes see the opponent's Soul instead of their body.
How is a soul's beauty determined? the best guess I can make is their soul force and that would usually be much higher then beauty
>>
No. 72263 ID: 47a120

>>72217
>"Substance that is not of the other 5 physical elements"
The "physical" elements are just the names for the 5 of the 7 elements that make up gaia. The world is actually composed of many elements that do not come from her. For example one of the elements that compose creation is "Words" which allow communication and comes from wordblood.

>After all messing with "moon" automatically means messing with Luna.
The argument wasn't that we should make a new deva with the element of the moon.
Rather it came about by me proclaiming that I am guessing that the exaltation spirit has the element of "Moon" since it counts as a deva for some purposes and was made by Moon herself (Luna) with aid from Gaia and Autochton.
>>
No. 72264 ID: 47a120

>>72202
>Let me say it as plainly as I can
>... I'm beginning to doubt you're even trying to listen to me or understand what I am saying.
Seriously? I obviously understood you the first time, I just disagree. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand or listen.
I listened, I understood, and I deemed you wrong. People have this incessant notion that if only they would make people understand, if only people will listen, if only communication could be unobstructed... however I have found that communication issues are rarely the cause of disagreements. People just don't always agree on things.

>A moon is a specific thing, not an element of a thing. It is a thing, built from something else. It is not an element.
You are confusing reality and this fantasy world and ignoring all my points. What about the mystic material moonsilver? What about lunars exalts? What about the fact there is only one world, creation? The "Moon" is the physical form, the flesh, of one of the most powerful Incarna. Just as the Sun is the physical form/flesh of the most powerful Incarna, just as the 5 elemental poles are the physical forms of the royal deva's of the Titan Gaia, just as hell is the physical form (turned inside out) of Malfeas.

>A deva with a moon element is exactly like a deva with an element of a specific campfire
Replace campfire with The Sun. The one and only Sun in the entirety of existence. Who is a magical sapient Incarna.

>You declared it as an absolute fact
1. I stated it, by definition it is my opinion. I do not have to state "in my opinion" before something for it to be a statement of opinion and not a fact.
2. It is a fact, my opinion on this is correct.
3. You are upset I state this "as a fact" yet you state the opposite view as a fact. Very hypocritical of you.

>... I thought the Inner Den was inside our world-body now? How would we get Saulanna inside her own world-body? ...Can titans even do that?
Titans can do anything, the only question is how difficult it is.
And the yozis have been imprisoned in the leader of the titan's who has been turned inside out to form hell.
That being said I think hiding inside herself is recursive to the same level of creating a will deva. It might or might not be easier.
Also, isn't creation made out of gaia? So gaia might be inside herself.
>>
No. 72271 ID: f29aa1

>>72264
That owould also imply that Luna is inside of Gaia.

Wait, did you meant Creation as in:
>the world of Creation
or
>all existence
>>
No. 72273 ID: 5d121c

>>72264
>Replace campfire with The Sun. The one and only Sun in the entirety of existence. Who is a magical sapient Incarna.

What.
>>
No. 72281 ID: 47a120

>>72271
The fictional world named "creation", the one surrounded by chaos from which elves come.

>That owould also imply that Luna is inside of Gaia.
They are officially lovers according to exalted canon (and confirmed in this quest). They fuck.
And worth noting that Luna's has 2 avatars. A young woman and a pregnant man.
>>
No. 72283 ID: 5d121c

>>72281
Luna has a lot more specific avatars than that. The pregnant man just gets used a lot because of shock/silliness value.

In Lunar Quest specifically Kairosa explained this is from back when she devoured all those other moons and got their shapes. Then it was revealed that that's why lunars devour the hearts of animals to get their shapes. And so on.
>>
No. 72289 ID: 058fbe

I think there's a miscommunication here on what "Moon" is referring to. Rather than the actual body in the sky (there's another of those in Malfeas, anyway), i think Moon-as-Element is referring to the lunar essence, if you will, the magical force that could be described as one of the Celestial Elements, along with Solar (sun) and Sidereal (star) essence.
>>
No. 72293 ID: 47a120

>>72289
>Rather than the actual body in the sky ... i think Moon-as-Element is referring to the lunar essence, if you will, the magical force that could be described as one of the Celestial Elements
Aren't they the same thing in the world of exalted?
Isn't that thing mortals see in the sky made out of metaphysical essence rather then being made out of earth, fire, water, wood, and air?
What if the moon is a disk of metaphysical essence rather then a sphere of earth that reflects the sun's light?

In the very early posts people tried to tell luna that the moon reflect's sunlight and were rebuffed that this is not true. She generates her own light.
>>/questarch/91252
>>/questarch/91260
>Gosh, you're right! If only this setting were on a flat plane bordered by the madness of unreality, so that the sun literally disappeared every night and was replaced by a moon that glows under its own power... and if only its gods were made by the unfathomable Titans to fulfill certain functions in their own right, with their local manifestations in the sky merely tools for them to fulfill those duties! Then I would have power, possibly as the shapeshifting god/dess who holds power over chaos and trickery. But no. I am merely a reflection, whose sole power is to deceive.
>...
>... Just kidding!

The sun literally disappears every night, at which point the moon literally appears. There is are no orbit, there is no solar system. And the thing mortals see in the sky is merely a tool of an Incarna
>>
No. 72296 ID: 5f3849

>>72255 
It kinda makes sense that the TW we spend change reality itself to make Power Words possible - otherwise we could abuse our time powers: teach Peregrin a Power Word, undo the purchase, buy another word, teach him THAT... 

But wouldn't altering reality like that be rather detectable by, say, the Dragon's Shadow?
>>
No. 72299 ID: 5d121c

>>72296
There's no reason for the Dragon's Shadow to detect it over others who actually have tools for that sort of thing like the Incarnae and the Sidereals. But even the it was said that the Loom of Fate was in disrepair or something. And even then detecting such things would depend on how much stuff it changes around on the Loom in the first place.
>>
No. 72302 ID: 5f3849

>>72299 
We ARE kinda standing in the street outside his house, metaphorically speaking, being in a Shadowy Land. And the DS invented Sorcery so might be sensitive to it and related concepts. AND he busted ass to get Akatrina here very quickly - other investigators might be on their way but blocked by the shadowy border and the time shenanigans. 

Anyway, I was thinking, regardless of what Akatrina was sent to look for, maybe we could convince her that what DS felt from here was Peregrin inventing and testing out this new system of magic?
>>
No. 72306 ID: cee89f

>That owould also imply that Luna is inside of Gaia.

Luna can shapeshift, I'm sure they've tried it. (My headcanon is that the two-faced bride is carrying Gaia's baby)

>>72264
>Replace campfire with The Sun. The one and only Sun in the entirety of existence. Who is a magical sapient Incarna.
...GYAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Oh... dear lord... I'm sorry, that was rude... but that's the best laugh I've had all week...

See, the whole point was that the concept of a campfire was too specific. And you go and pick something that's one-of-a-kind!! xD

Heh.... okay.

In seriousness: this would be similar to having a deva of Haht'hek. Not Time, just Haht'hek. It couldn't be done.

Now, we can have a time soul, as Kairosa proves, but we can't have a Deva with Haht'hek as an element. See?
>Seriously? I obviously understood you the first time, I just disagree.
1) Something I've learned over the years is that just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to anyone else. =P Especially when a conversation is text-based so no one can tell your tone of voice.

For instance, I'm smiling and chuckling to myself right now, and this sentence was the last one I wrote directed at you before hitting 'reply'.

2)Ya can't disagree on facts >.> which you tried to do.

>Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand or listen.
No, but you were repeating the same point as if saying it multiple times would somehow make you more correct. Moreover, you were stating your opinion as a fact, something that can't be agreed or disagreed with, it just is.

>I listened, I understood, and I deemed you wrong. People have this incessant notion that if only they would make people understand, if only people will listen, if only communication could be unobstructed... however I have found that communication issues are rarely the cause of disagreements. People just don't always agree on things.
In my experience, misunderstandings and disagreements usually occur because of poor word choice. So I restated my argument as plainly as I could. After that, I don't care.

>1. I stated it, by definition it is my opinion. I do not have to state "in my opinion" before something for it to be a statement of opinion and not a fact.
Normally no, because the specific words and phrases chosen should make it clear, mostly by being qualitative statements (good, bad, ugly, pretty, etc). Yours did not.

>2. It is a fact, my opinion on this is correct.
If it is a fact then it's not an opinion. It's a fact. Are you operating under a different definition of the words 'fact' and 'opinion' than I am?

No, seriously, are you? It would explain so much.

>3. You are upset I state this "as a fact" yet you state the opposite view as a fact. Very hypocritical of you.
I'm upset because you switch between defending it as a fact and as an opinion based on what's most convenient at the time. See two: in the same breath you defend your point as both fact and opinion. Ya can't be both.

You can debate my opinion that it's a bad idea all you like, but it is a fact that the moon is not an element we can use for a Lord soul.

Whatever the moon is made out of? Maybe. And if that's also referred to as 'moon', then fine, I'm wrong.

But just like a soul, the moon is a construct built for a specific purpose, even if the thing it's made out of is metaphysical.
>Wordblood on Souls as an element
>"My lady, souls are just fragments of Titanic Will that have been shaped into various forms for various purposes. Human souls collect excess energy from their surroundings, refine it into aether, and channel that in turn to the gods through prayer, or to the world of dreams when they sleep and when they die. That would just be Will."
So yeah. We can't.

>Also, isn't creation made out of gaia? So gaia might be inside herself.

Creation is made out of the same stuff as Gaia, but Gaia herself? =/ I've heard this suggested a few times, but I've also heard it stated that Gaia is off in the Wyld.

>>72293
In Exalted canon the Sun is the Death Star and I can't find anything on the moon (found the name 'Silver Chair' so I'm guessing it's a palace or something?). In LQ? Maybe. But that raises the question of where the ideas that would form a moon sprang from in the first place.

>>72302
Peregrin has implied that Akatrina can tell if Saulanna's a titan. This could be a bad idea.

>>72293
>Metaphysical essence
You say that like it somehow matters in Creation. Metaphysical concepts are used just as readily to build things as material ones. Even if it were built out of metaphysical essence of Luna's pants, it would still be a body in the sky.

>>72289
I guess that could work, but it seems iffy to me, especially since we don't have access to (or knowledge of) whatever the moon is made of.

>>72296
Wordblood implied earlier that all beings have a 'titan-spark'. He'll probably give Peregrin access to that through his power words. Or they act like a password: 'say this word to execute stop.exe'
>>
No. 72308 ID: 5d121c

>>72302
No, a shadowy land is kind of like a point in between where both sides are equal. And this wasn't about sorcery at all, it was about Kairosa mucking about with time and causality specifically. And even if it was about sorcery he still wouldn't have a hold on it cause we'd just be skipping all of the bullshit he made up about it.

Akatrina is worrying though. And I don't think it would be a good idea to go on the offensive like you suggest, she is way more manipulative than us.
>>
No. 72309 ID: 5d121c

>>72306
The sun isn't one of a kind. There are three suns currently in existence. I'm not certain but I think he was trying to illustrate that with irony.
>>
No. 72312 ID: 5f3849

>>72309
I don't think we'll reach consensus on the Moon/Sun-as-an-Element debate until Wordblood hands us the Word-of-Titan for how this version of Creation works.

>Something to distract people
Hm. have we discussed our strategies for the upcoming social combat?

Social Attack: (Attribute + Competency + Boost + Beauty + Evidence + Truth)
Social Defense: (Virtue 1 + Virtue 2 -(Fear+Affection) + (Anger+Contempt) +Evidence)
Refutation of attack, Rousing, Soothing arguments work as attacks do. When Wordblood Refutes enemy argument, technically he's attacking and we're defending.)
Change of Topic: (Inspiration + Leadership) contest

On analysis, there are a multitude of avenues to explore for improving our results in Social Combat.

For Defense:
*Remove Akatrina's Beauty bonus: -(1-3) (The right Titanic ability might fix this)
*Raise Saulanna's Discipline and/or Determination. (Discipline looks like the easiest one to raise. Unfortunately for our immediate purposes, Sympathy is the one closest to leveling up one step (assuming that's what the gray bars on our virtue star measure). )
*Improve Wordblood's Inspiration and/or Smoothtalking: -1 (This may already have happened when WB got his SF raised. Would WB gain Smoothtalking by absorbing books on it?)
*Increase our Affection for Wordblood: -1 (Let's have a picnic in our head! Bring sandwiches and poetry books, and for Kairosa, I dunno, fossils? Then we can have fun, talk about our feelings, all that stuff ;) )
*Remove Saulanna's fear: -1 (Titanic ability? Research? Soothing arguments from Kairosa?)
*Also, prevent Saulanna from gaining Affection for Akatrina (Try to not even meet her, though World-reading her from a distance might reveal useful info, such as her Beauty stat.)
*Increase our Hostility and/or Contempt towards Akatrina: -(1-4)
*Remove our Hostility/Contempt for the Moon Heroes, so Askalaff can continue refuting arguments for us without being hindered. (If we talk to the Moon Heroes, they might do this.)
*Get Evidence for the Defense (Seeing the Tongue Slip and World Reading might provide Wordblood this. ("See! she's using Dickery!") We might not be able to use this as evidence for Attack, though.)
*Build Affection with Peregrin. (He will likely help us argue for staying here.)
*Build Affection towards our new territory, increasing how much we CARE about staying put, thus increasing the Will multiplier.
*Increase our Will (We had 6 before increasing our soul force. Afterwards, we had 7. After this, we increased our total SF by 1 + 3 + ? +?. Depending on how Will is calculated, we could have anywhere between 7 and 14 now. (The last being if our half-formed Devas contribute to Will AND they have beefed themselves up a bit each with scrap TW from our soulnommings. ) In any case, I think we're going to be a lot more stubborn in our next Social Combat situation...)
*Spend Moon Power on recharging Will. (This doesn't currently seem worth it. Channeling Moon Power through a virtue would get us only two Will, and doing it too often would light our Soul Fire.)
*Increase our Leadership skill to 4, so we can switch topics properly. (Books/tutoring)

For Attack:
*Find Evidence (Do research on Akatrina, rifle through her possessions, use Kairosa's abilities. Interview Shades about life under the Dragon's Shadow)
*Increase Saulanna's Beauty. +1? (Note that this might not work if Akatrina considers a high Beauty level to be average.)
*Increase Sleuthing/Smothtalking/Deception/Sass (books, tutoring)
*Increase Akatrina's Fear and/or Affection towards Saulanna. (The more she finds out about us, the more Fear will come by itself. That pheromone stuff might affect her, too. )
*Compose especially eloquent phrasings.
*Tailor our attacks to Akatrina's Virtues.

Pre-emptive defense:
Askalaff and Akatrina are experienced players of the game. Most likely, they're engaging in skullduggery of their own - interrogating castle dwellers, debriefing spies, performing ninja-like break & entry etc, to find out more about us. Securing Devin is a priority! Also, prevent them from finding out too much about our life as a test subject: secure Peregrin's notes about the Titan Fragment and us, before Akatrina throws them in the middle of the discussion, to try to drive a wedge between us and Peregrin, or between Peregrin and the Moon Heroes. )

The most cost-effective methods are:
*raising our skills
*Finding a way to ignore Akatrina's Beauty, IF her bonus is 2 or above.
*Finding Evidence / Hiding things that could be used against us.

*Increasing Beauty is low-reward, since Akatrina might well be used to beautiful people. However, it's better to establish our physical appearance early, so we can believably say, "What, I always looked like this!"

It's tempting to talk to Akatrina alone - she's implied that she's tight-lipped because of the Moon Heroes, and she might give us some straight-talk if given the chance. On the other hand, without someone nearby to refute her arguments, Saulanna would be rather exposed.

You know, if Akatrina is ruthless enough, she might try to quickly raise Saulanna's Affection for her by straight-up trying to seduce her into bed.
...EVEN SO, let's stay away from her.
>>
No. 72313 ID: cee89f

>>72309
>Irony!
... That WOULD make more sense. If that's the case, then I'm sorry. On the other hand, I'm not sure if any of them other than UCS is an incarnae.

>I don't think we'll reach consensus on the Moon/Sun-as-an-Element debate until Wordblood hands us the Word-of-Titan for how this version of Creation works.
...Fair enough.

>Replace campfire with The Sun. The one and only Sun in the entirety of existence. Who is a magical sapient Incarna.

And I don't really see how that would help his position anyway =/

>>72308
>DS sent Akatrina because he felt Kairosa and stuff!
...Er, am I misinterpreting this? DS sent Akatrina to us before Kairosa was even born =/

>>72312
>Test notes
... Oh dear Luna. O_O

>*Increasing Beauty is low-reward, since Akatrina might well be used to beautiful people. However, it's better to establish our physical appearance early, so we can believably say, "What, I always looked like this!"
Last I checked, the point wasn't to unsettle her, it was to increase our attack and defense in social combat.

Two ideas:
-We find Akatrina's carriage or somesuch and have Kairosa taste it to learn as much about her entourage as possible.
-Develop a plan for escape, in case we need one.

>Beauty stat
...We've /seen/ Akatrina's beauty stat =/ it's 4. One more than ours.
>>
No. 72314 ID: 47a120

>>72306
>Sun is even more specific than a campfire
Yes, but I am arguing that its specificity is countered by its magnitude.

>In seriousness: this would be similar to having a deva of Haht'hek. Not Time, just Haht'hek. It couldn't be done.
Haht'hek is (was) time itself. Time exists because Haht'hek not vice versa. Haht'hek isn't a dragon made of a natural force, but the natural force was made from the dragon Haht'hek (now Kairosa because his death left a hole in reality which needed to be filled and drew her in).

mmm, you know, it might be a good idea to make more devas of the same element as that of deva's who were killed. Patching holes in reality is significant.

>See two: in the same breath you defend your point as both fact and opinion. Ya can't be both.
Sure it can. If something is a fact it means it is true and accurate. My opinion might be factually correct, or it might be factually wrong. Everyone believes their opinion is factually correct, else they wouldn't hold that opinion. It is my opinion that A is a fact. It is your opinion that B is a fact. One of us is wrong.

>I'm upset because you switch between defending it as a fact and as an opinion based on what's most convenient at the time.
That's now, earlier you were upset that I "stated it as a fact".

>Creation is made out of the same stuff as Gaia, but Gaia herself? =/ I've heard this suggested a few times, but I've also heard it stated that Gaia is off in the Wyld.
Actually in retrospect, didn't gaia explicitly bring her elemental dragons outside of her inner world for manifesting? Like we earlier discussing letting K and WB manifest outside our body?
So we could carve up a domain in the chaos from our own devas and live in it.

>>Metaphysical essence
>You say that like it somehow matters in Creation. Metaphysical concepts are used just as readily to build things as material ones.
That is my whole point.
>it would still be a body in the sky.
And words are just drawings on paper, and earth is just a very large object on the ground. How does that make it a non element?
>>
No. 72315 ID: 47a120

>>72312
>*Increase our Hostility and/or Contempt towards Akatrina: -(1-4)
>*Remove our Hostility/Contempt for the Moon Heroes, so Askalaff can continue refuting arguments for us without being hindered. (If we talk to the Moon Heroes, they might do this.)
Sounds really determined to win here. Aside from not being easily, this is not something that should be trivially done.
Akatrina and these guys didn't do anything to deserve or justify making such changes.
>>
No. 72316 ID: f2c20c

I don't know why we'd want to win so badly against Akatrina anyway. We won't fit in with the Moon Heroes in the long term, that much is obvious.
>>
No. 72317 ID: 5f3849

>>72313

>Akatrina has Beauty 4
Oooh, I forgot social stats were displayed.
Okay, then we know that if we remove that advantage, attacks from her will do 2 less damage. If we can accomplish that with a 1TW Ability, it's pretty cost-effective.

>Increasing Beauty
My point was twofold. First, that people react to beauty differently, depending on what they consider to be 'average'. Would Akatrina even be affected by our increased beauty? We didn't get any attack bonus from being at Beauty 3.
Second, that currently very few people in the castle have seen us up close. Thus few people are currently in a position to notice that we weren't always a beautiful 2-meter-high woman.

>Oh dear Luna. O_O
...I'm actually a bit concerned myself about the amount of brain time I'm spending on speculating about Saulanna's character progression, as compared to, say, planning my own trip through Europe :/
>>
No. 72320 ID: cee89f

>>72316
How so? =/ We've had one conversation with them.

Also, because if Akatrina wins, we'll probably go to the Dragon's Shadow. If we win against both of them, we stay here.

>>72317
>Second, that currently very few people in the castle have seen us up close. Thus few people are currently in a position to notice that we weren't always a beautiful 2-meter-high woman.
True but Akatrina and the moon heroes have. So we still need to find a way to shrink down and hide our horns (the latter should be relatively easy with this much hair.

>>72317
>...I'm actually a bit concerned myself about the amount of brain time I'm spending on speculating about Saulanna's character progression, as compared to, say, planning my own trip through Europe :/
(Enjoy your trip!)

... I imagine Peregrin has his notes on us hidden somewhere safe (and/or in code) if he knew the delegation was coming, but what about, say, Alice? She's one of the few living servants in a land of ghosts, and it won't take much digging to find out she doesn't know how to pronounce her own name.

>>72315
>Akatrina and these guys didn't do anything to deserve or justify making such changes.
True but they didn't really deserve or justify the emotions we have towards them in the first place (Except for Garmir, but the emotion is directed towards 'Moon Heroes', not 'Garmir')

Speaking of Garmir, let's kill his ass.

>>72314
>That's now, earlier you were upset that I "stated it as a fact".
That too. You state an opinion as a fact, and then defend it as an opinion or a fact depending on which makes more sense for an argument.

A person can be annoyed by more than one thing at a time =P
>mmm, you know, it might be a good idea to make more devas of the same element as that of deva's who were killed. Patching holes in reality is significant.
Maybe, but there's two problems with that.

1) If an element come from a deva and vice-versa, (your assertion) that would mean that if a Deva was ever permanently destroyed without another to take its place, then whatever element there was would cease to be. So how would we find out what elements are missing from the world?

2) The titans can reform their own devas.


>Yes, but I am arguing that its specificity is countered by its magnitude.
... Ya know that power has little/nothing to do with whether or not something is an element, right? If anything the Sun's element is Light because it provides it for the world.

>Sure it can. If something is a fact it means it is true and accurate. My opinion might be factually correct, or it might be factually wrong. Everyone believes their opinion is factually correct, else they wouldn't hold that opinion. It is my opinion that A is a fact. It is your opinion that B is a fact. One of us is wrong.
...

No.

No, no, NO.

'Opinions' are qualitative statements that, by definition, cannot be wrong or right. ("Red is a good color", "We shouldn't eat souls") A 'fact' is something that can be observed and/or proven as much as humanly possible, and therefore can be correct or false ("The sky is blue", "Saulanna is a titan").

A fact supports an opinion, it cannot be one.

I could get into how from a strict language standpoint, facts can be false, but it's stupid beyond belief and a matter of semantics anyway, so I won't.

>Haht'hek is (was) time itself. Time exists because Haht'hek not vice versa. Haht'hek isn't a dragon made of a natural force, but the natural force was made from the dragon Haht'hek (now Kairosa because his death left a hole in reality which needed to be filled and drew her in).
1) Haht'hek was formed by endless chaos. Whether Haht'hek created Time or Time created Haht'hek is both a meaningless distinction and one that is impossible to make.

2) There's more than one Time deva.

3) What does that have to do with anything I said? No, seriously. How does that negate that we still made a time deva, not a Haht'hek deva?

>Actually in retrospect, didn't gaia explicitly bring her elemental dragons outside of her inner world for manifesting? Like we earlier discussing letting K and WB manifest outside our body? So we could carve up a domain in the chaos from our own devas and live in it.
Yes we can, eventually. Akatrina actually mentioned that as a potential thing DS could've done. Do we want to?

>That is my whole point.
And the sky has clouds in it. Just because it's a valid point doesn't mean it supports what you're saying. The construct is still a construct, NOT an element.

>How does that make it a non element?
Because you're not talking about words, or fire, or light, you're talking about an essay, or a campfire, or a laser. (note to self: ask about Laser deva) A moon is a thing made from an element, not the element itself. Like how a Soul is made of Will.

A moon, a Sun, any celestial body is not an element. You can't make something out of 'moon', it's already something that's been made out of something.

Look, at this rate we're just going to keep talking past each other, but do you at LEAST see the point I'm getting at here?

>Words as an element.
Words is not Wordblood's element, it's communication.

What you're proposing, to me, sounds exactly like making a Power Word deva, or an English deva.

(in case it wasn't already clear, I'm talking about the a validity of elements for Lord souls, since we're still gonna be making those for a long while. Moon, Sun, and other stuff could still be noble or commoner elements)
>>
No. 72321 ID: 5f3849

>not something that should be trivially done. Akatrina and these guys didn't do anything to deserve or justify making such changes.
Akatrina herself raised our hostility and contempt towards the Moon Heroes. If we visit Askalaff, he's bound to try doing the very same thing, raising suspicions about Akatrina.

>I don't know why we'd want to win so badly against Akatrina anyway.
Akatrina has the bigger social muscles. If we can beat her, we can beat Askalaff. And by beating her, we'll probably win some of her respect, strengthening our position in future negotiations, AND show Askalaff that we are stubborn and resourceful enough that he can justify leaving us alone.

Actually, I'm fairly neutral about where we end up going. Leaving with the Moon Heroes would get us nature training, and possible exposure to Wyld stuff and Fae (whose 4th-wall-breaking antics are often amusing), BUT might also end up with us being pursued by a gang of lunatics out for our ichor.

Going with Akatrina would let us see the changed underworld, interact with DS's Devas, possibly get us a lot of TW, BUT would likely entangle us in the myriad plots DS has going, plus he might also influence our development as a Titan.

Staying where we are would let us finish our quest, read Peregrin's entire library and gain a solid base of operations, BUT our TW gain would be irregular, depending on the highly variable night length, and DS would no doubt send a Hell Hero to bother us within a week, not to mention the other investigators that might be en-route already.

Where would you guys rather end up?
>>
No. 72323 ID: cd1119

>>72321
>Where would you guys rather end up?
Stay where we are now, of course. Then later head into the rest of Creation on our own terms.
>>
No. 72324 ID: 5f3849

>Hide our horns
Probably best to ungrow them if we can. If he caught the slightest whiff, Garmir would TOTALLY just go up to us and take a peek under whatever hair ornament or locks are in his way.
...We could make a hair ornament that's booby-trapped?
>>
No. 72327 ID: cee89f

>>72324
Agreed, we should get rid of the horns if at all possible, but the height should take priority as it is the much more visible change.
>>
No. 72328 ID: 5d121c

>>72313
Two of the suns are Incarnae, UCS and the Red Sun. The other one is Ligier, a Lordly Deva.
>>
No. 72329 ID: beeca1

>>72328
Ligier's the one and only fetich soul of Malfeas, so I'm fairly sure he'd be.... a Regent or something. Possibly a Prince.
>>
No. 72330 ID: 47a120

>>72320
>1) If an element come from a deva and vice-versa, (your assertion) that would mean that if a Deva was ever permanently destroyed without another to take its place, then whatever element there was would cease to be. So how would we find out what elements are missing from the world?
Not at all, just as like the gods survived the destruction of the titans, and a child survive the destruction of their parent.

>You state an opinion as a fact, and then defend it as an opinion or a fact depending on which makes more sense for an argument.
This is false, I defend it as both concurrently.

>'Opinions' are qualitative statements that, by definition, cannot be wrong or right. ("Red is a good color", "We shouldn't eat souls") A 'fact' is something that can be observed and/or proven as much as humanly possible, and therefore can be correct or false ("The sky is blue", "Saulanna is a titan").
You are incorrect.
To quote wikipedia:
>A fact (derived from the Latin factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.

Also
>'fact' is something that can be observed and/or proven
>as much as humanly possible
That is all kinds of useless because of there rarely being things you can easily prove or disprove. Most things are heavily arguable.

>Opinion by definition cannot be right or wrong.
Except, you can have opinions ABOUT facts. Flat earther's have the opinion that the earth is flat. I have the opinion that there is ample evidence proving otherwise.
The fact is that the earth is round. The opinions are either "it is flat, because the bible tells me so" or "it is round, because a lot of evidence".
It being rounds is both an opinion and a fact. It being flat is an opinion with a false fact.

Also it is worth noting that a non omniscient being like a human cannot perceive facts, they can merely form opinion on what is or isn't fact based on (hopefully accurate) observation and experimentation. There is an entire branch of science dealing with quantifying experimental error.
>>
No. 72331 ID: 47a120

>>72320
>Actually in retrospect, didn't gaia explicitly bring her elemental dragons outside of her inner world for manifesting? Like we earlier discussing letting K and WB manifest outside our body? So we could carve up a domain in the chaos from our own devas and live in it.
>Yes we can, eventually. Akatrina actually mentioned that as a potential thing DS could've done. Do we want to?
No, I only mentioned it in regards to the "Gaia is living inside of herself so such recursion is possible for us too" thing from earlier.

>Because you're not talking about words, or fire, or light, you're talking about an essay, or a campfire, or a laser. (note to self: ask about Laser deva) A moon is a thing made from an element, not the element itself.

The problem with that argument is two fold.

1. An essay is a thing someone makes out of words, the two words (essay, words) have distinct names and are well known. If accepting your analogy as true then the object called the moon is made out of? what is the element's name? There is none because Luna is really secretive. Which is why I named this mysterious moon-element "Moon". Simple, yes? Using the word "Moon" for this unnamed "Moon-Element" is the best you can do for naming such a thing. I have EXPLICITLY Stated before that the moon you see in the sky is made out of that moon-element but its not the ONLY thing that is made out of it. It is also the source of moon-silver and is express in lunar exaltation spirits. (huh, maybe this entire thing is due to a misunderstanding, specifically yours)

2. An essay vs words is a false analogy; the moon is to the moon-element of no name as wordblood is to the element of words. Wordblood is MADE out of words, is the SOURCE of the existence of the element of words... and then lesser being go and shape essays out of words.

What you are saying is:
"The Moon (object - Luna's phyical form) cannot be of the element of moon (element) because it is just an object, like a singular moon-silver sword"
Translate it to WB and you get:
"The dragon WordBlood (object - WordBloods phyical form) cannot be of the element of words (element) because it is just an object, like a singular essay"
>>
No. 72334 ID: cee89f

>>72328
I thought she was the Scarlet Empress? =/

>>72329
...Odd. Stories I heard say that while Ligier was Creation's first sun, the holy tyrant didn't contribute anything to Creation until DS teased at his ego, at which point he made UCS =/

>>72330
>>72331

Didn't read.

If you don't mind, this discussion is going nowhere fast, and it's becoming more frustrating than it needs to be. Can we just drop it and move on?

Rereading through the thread, when Wordblood talks about Titan deva relationships, ( >>58020 ) he mentions:
>"Some Titans also create an avatar, which they can project beyond themselves to interact with lesser beings more easily."
Could we make that into a form like Saulanna's original moon hero body and use that to interact with the world, or do we not have enough TW for that?
>>
No. 72335 ID: b99cb6

>>72334
>Could we make that into a form like Saulanna's original moon hero body and use that to interact with the world, or do we not have enough TW for that?
Maybe. It's an intriguing possibility, might need to roll back a few upgrades at least though. The main danger is that such thing may discernable as somehow not right. Still it is something to ask about when looking for a solution next chapter.
>>
No. 72337 ID: 47a120

>>72334
>Didn't read.
>If you don't mind, this discussion is going nowhere fast
Shame, because you missed an important point I think you might care about in regards to the moon-element vs moon-object semantics
>>
No. 72339 ID: 5f3849

So, do you guys think 1 TW will cover changing back? I kinda get the impression it might be harder than that, from Kaairosa's "...I think".
>>
No. 72340 ID: cee89f

>>72337
*glances* no, not at all. Just irritation mixed with frustration that you are saying the same point again, twisting semantics and grossly misinterpreting my own words as much as humanly possible and genuinely believing that somehow that has added something new to the discussion. Oh, and irritation that you're using the same name to refer to two different things and apparently expecting this to be simple to pick up on.

Like I said, going nowhere fast and more frustrating than it needs to be.
>>
No. 72345 ID: 5d121c

>>72329
Yeah, but that still counts as a lord deva, doesn't it? I mean, Saulanna the deva is a lord deva isn't she.
>>
No. 72346 ID: 5d121c

>>72334
She used to be. Now she's an incarna. Hey, this is exalted, things change.
>>
No. 72347 ID: 5d121c

>>72335
>>72334

We probably could create an avatar, but who knows how much it would cost.

We might also be able to send forth our devas into creation. Including Saulanna the deva. So a bit of magic makeup and we'd look just like we used to.

It might seem dangerous but it isn't really, mostly. We'd just reform in our world if someone killed us. Unless they specifically found out we were a materialized spirit somehow and drained our essence... which is unlikely to happen. And if we really were in that much danger we could just poof out of there before facing that.
>>
No. 72351 ID: 058fbe

>Haht'hek is (was) time itself. Time exists because Haht'hek not vice versa.

Wordblood indicated that Oramus had a Time deva, and Oramus was the first Titan, so if anything it's them that caused time's existence. But I think it's implied that time is sort of localized, anyway? I know that in Exalted canon, for Malfeas as an example, it takes five days for anything to move between Malfeas and Creation, and that the yozis can undo events in Malfeas that are less than five days gone, so that implies that time in hell and in Creation are partialy disconnected. Something similar seems to be the case for the underworld in Lunar Quest.

Also, I'm sure at some point jukashi said something about the Titans having to figure out "how to causality for themselves" before the world existed. Maybe it was in IRC.
>>
No. 72360 ID: cee89f

>>72345
'Lord' 'noble' and 'commoner' are just words we use for the three levels of deva for conveniences' sake, they're not actual titles.

So yeah, Ligier would still be a Lord soul... actually, in the extended metaphor we're using he would be the King soul if he were the fetich. Which is also a Lord.

Note to self: Name something to do with Kairosa (maybe we'll eventually have exalted of our own?) 'Time Lords'. For the lulz.

>>72351
... I'm sorry, what exactly are you quoting here? I think it lacks context >.>

>>72347
Saulanna the deva doesn't have any Nobles yet. She'll die if she is killed. See video.

>>72346
... I wasn't aware that was how Incarna worked, but okay :p
>>
No. 72361 ID: 5d121c

>>72360
She wouldn't die if she wasn't drained like a spirit which wouldn't be done to a lunar normally. She'd just reform in her world without any noble input.
>>
No. 72362 ID: beeca1

>>72360
Apotheosis' happened before. Venus made some mortal guy into a god because she wanted the D. The bearer of the cerulean ewer, as i recall. A Titan can make an Exalt into a god far more easily than a god can make a mortal into one, and the Incarnae are just especially powerful gods.
>>
No. 72363 ID: 5d121c
File 137139649102.jpg - (307.97KB , 805x683 , 2.jpg )
72363

>>72361
found a neat reference for this
>>
No. 72364 ID: cee89f

>>72361
Are we sure about that? I vaguely recall Wordblood implying that we couldn't reform yet since we're currently so weak - killing one of our Lords would kill them off permanently =/

>>72362
*shrug* if you say so.
>>
No. 72366 ID: 5d121c

>>72364
Yeah, but see
>>72363
where it says "killing" refers to more than just dissipating a deva. This is specifically the case because I was talking about projecting a deva into the world in the first place. Gods and 2nd circle demons (or noble devas, which our devas are more like ATM than real lordly ones in this context) are spiritual beings. It takes a lot of energy for them all to manifest physically, and if that hysical manifestation is destroyed they aren't hurt because their real bodies are the spiritual ones.

The big energy cost is not a TW type of cost though, just normal essence. It's an intrinsic ability for all gods and demons above 1st circle.
>>
No. 72394 ID: 9f7acd

I get the feeling that if we tried to project ourselves into a physical body with our current resources we'd just end up making a little 2 inch high Saulanna pixie.

...LET'S DO IT.
>>
No. 72395 ID: 5f3849

>intrinsic ability for all gods and demons above 1st circle
We're kind of between categories at the moment. My guess is that Saulanna doesn't actually 'count' as a second circle Deva until she fulfills the Soul Force requirements for 2nd circle - SF 6.

So yeah, pixie Saulanna at best.
>>
No. 72397 ID: cee89f

>>72366
True, but-
>>72395
... yeah, this. Saulanna, Wordblood and Kairosa are all incredibly weak for Titanic devas - before Kairosa was formed, Wordblood admitted that he was "utterly pitiful even compared to a commoner deva".
>>
No. 72403 ID: 5d121c

Well that's all fine, we need the SF anyway, and who knows what we could do if we put a TW or two in.

I just think this is a good option to remember. We don't need to create expensive physical bodies or modify the horns and height away if we have a similar option for free.
>>
No. 72405 ID: a12965

>>72403
We really should only be focusing on the shapeshifting as our immediate solution to our form problem. It's a powerful, flexible skill right at our fingertips so lets use it. We just need a "normal human Saulanna" form. I don't *think* there would be a problem with that, assuming that we can still display our lunar nature the same way.
>>
No. 72407 ID: 5d121c

>>72405
The last post with Kairosa implied it would be a problem. I think it's a good bet that we need to look into other things.
>>
No. 72408 ID: cd1119

>>72407
I'm sure our shapeshifting by itself won't do the trick, but throwing enough TW at it has to work at some point.

...But that might involve making a decision on our exaltation that we avoided back in >>/questarch/501414 and I'm not keen on bending or breaking either part of us to match the other. If it is a problem, maybe we can throw some TW to patch the hole between us and the exaltation for this purpose?
>>
No. 72410 ID: 5f3849

>>72407
I imagine shape-shifting back will be:
A) fairly expensive, and
B) a patchwork solution, at best,
but it will probably work.

The thing is, the more we develop as a Titan, the harder it will be to compress our phenomenal cosmic power into an itty-bitty human shape.

Still, I'm hoping we can get Saulanna to SF 5, at least, before we have to take *serious* measures.
>>
No. 72414 ID: 01531c

Is it true that Jukashi is the one who created Polokoa?

Do Jukashi and Lagotrope work together on on Polokoa stuff for Polokoa-Quest or Polokoa-ITQ?
>>
No. 72417 ID: 19b3c3

>Is it true that Jukashi is the one who created Polokoa?
Jukashi runs Polokoa, yes. Her existence was first posited by a suggester in ITQ, though. Whether you want to blame that on a crazed fever dream or prescient picking up on of foreshadowing in Lago's work is up for debate.

>Do Jukashi and Lagotrope work together on on Polokoa stuff for Polokoa-Quest or Polokoa-ITQ?
There has been no indication they are actively collaborating.
>>
No. 72418 ID: 5d121c

>>72408
Yeah, with enough TW it would work. But why would we spend a massive amount of TW on that if there's a dozen cheaper ways to do it, some of them completely free.
>>
No. 72419 ID: 5d121c

>>72418
Completely free in the sense of "we'll be getting that anyway".
>>
No. 72421 ID: 058fbe

>>72414

I created Polokoa, yes. I mostly make Polokoa Quest on my own, but I do occasionally bug Lagotrope for information, like how arkots walk and what female salikai look like and so on. Sometimes I run ideas past him. If you're looking to PQ for asteroidverse information, I'd say the more mundane it is, the more reliable it is (like the aforementioned species info), assuming I thought to ask about it beforehand; whereas the crazier stuff is mostly not applicable to the original universe (I'm reasonably sure the original Rokoa does not know the Chaos Dunk, but I haven't actually inquired). Plus alternate history differences, like Hok being a famous rapper in this timeline (though I haven't asked if Hok is a rapper in the original, either!). And it's all secondary to original Lagotrope work, of course. He can contradict anything of mine whenever he likes.

I haven't done anything in PQ the last week, by the way, because I'm in france. Back soon. Just so you know.
>>
No. 72424 ID: 01531c

>>72421
Does Lagotrope ever poke you to share ideas on what to do with the characters?

How humorous does Lagotrope find the whole 'Polokoa' thing, on a scale of "lol"-to-"IRL-LOL"?

Is European food really less sweet than USA-food?
>>
No. 72430 ID: b99cb6

>>72419
Points spent on something we eventually get becomes an upgrade at that time - we've seen this already with Kairosa and our previous soul eating expenditures. Besides which, we don't yet know if this'll have massive costs or not or even if we have to go through the Hero soul to get it.
>>
No. 72431 ID: 5d121c

>>72430
You can say that about any of the other options too.
>>
No. 72457 ID: 5f3849

>>72419
What options do you see?
At first glance, these are the options I can think of (along with my guesses as to TW costs):

*Alter body directly. (At a guess: 2-3 TW. Hopefully a change we can un-buy later to recycle the TW.)

*Buy a Moon Ability that lets us shape-shift into original form ( 2-3 TW + Moon Power, have to mess about with Hero Soul, ability may be detectable.)

*Get a Stealth/Shape-shifting Deva with appropriate element (5-6 TW. Kinda insensitive since we know how much it hurts Saulanna.)

*Incarnate Deva Soul and give it fake tells. (At a guess, 8-14 TW + Lots of Power)

*Get Peregrin to whip up some kind of illusion with Sorcery/charms. (Odds are someone will see through it)

*Accept the change and explain it away as a Wyld mutation, giving Askalaff rhetorical ammo and increased motivation to bring us along.
>>
No. 72462 ID: 5d121c

>>72457
I can think of other deva pruposes and elements that could be used to explain it away.

Also we only need to get a deva's soulpower to 5 to project it, probably.
>>
No. 72471 ID: b99cb6

I wonder if Greenie might have a solution of some kind for us here. I figure it has some aspect of both deception and of the Wyld, so something might be possible. Of course if its anything like it's other power, it'll have some downside or wierd counter action.
>>
No. 72515 ID: 382278

>>72424
>Does Lagotrope ever poke you to share ideas on what to do with the characters?

He has expressed an interest in possibly using one or two ideas I've come up with, but I will not say which ones. Officially, I give him carte blanche to take anything asteroidverse related I've come up with.

>How humorous does Lagotrope find the whole 'Polokoa' thing, on a scale of "lol"-to-"IRL-LOL"?

You would have to ask him. He has indicated approval to me, at the least.

>Is European food really less sweet than USA-food?

Europe covers a lot of different food styles. In France, though, yes. But generally better, I would say, overall. Depends where you go. It's been a long time since I've been in the states, however, and I only ever went for very short stretches, in cities.
>>
No. 72518 ID: 47a120

>>72457
>Accept the change and explain it away as a Wyld mutation, giving Askalaff rhetorical ammo and increased motivation to bring us along.
what change?
>>
No. 72520 ID: f2c20c

>>72518
The horns.
>>
No. 72523 ID: 453cac

>what change?
Well, if we're picking one...
The Horns are easier to explain/hide, I guess.
On the other hand, the size change will probably be harder to suppress, and may possibly come with stat increases.
Both are acceptable Wyld mutations, I think, but do they usually manifest so quickly?
>>
No. 72524 ID: 99ee53

>>72457

that moon power is sounding pretty good. they probably will be able to tell we're doing something, but I doubt they'll be able to discern what.
>>
No. 72527 ID: 453cac

>Moon Power
Can we twist the rules into pretzels by going into our Inner World, acquiring Saulanna the Deva's Heart's Blood with a syringe (leaving her alive), then going outside and consuming it as Saulanna the Titan - gaining the Deva's form?

Just a silly suggestion ;)
>>
No. 72531 ID: 47a120

>>72520
what horns? I didn't see any image where saulanna grew horns
>>
No. 72532 ID: 47a120

>>72531
Oh snap! there was an update!
brb reading
>>
No. 72537 ID: cee89f

>>72527
Assuming we could, that would still leave the Lunar tell to fake.

>>72531
>>72532
..... I... but...

You were having discussions on that update! her size, her horns! how... i don't... but...

*falls over*
>>
No. 72539 ID: 5d121c

>>72537
the lunar tell is the easiest thing to fake because of its nature, unless someones gonna put it under specific magic scrutiny

the height thing is likely the hardest part
>>
No. 72561 ID: 47a120

>>72537
>You were having discussions on that update! her size, her horns! how... i don't... but..
Are you imagining things? Look back at the thread

2013/06/15 - My last post in an argument about potential elements for future devas (has nothing to do with the growth update).
2013/06/20 - My next post asking "what change?"
>>
No. 72573 ID: cee89f

>>72561
That update was first posted in march. Unless that was your first post in 3 months, i don't see your point =/

...

*goes to check*
>>70393
... Okay, close =/
>>
No. 72574 ID: 3bf06c

>>72532
So, now that you've caught up, do you have any thoughts about what we should do about the situation?
>>
No. 72575 ID: 3bf06c

What is the aesthetic of demons in Exalted? If the stereotypical demon has horns, then maybe erasing those should have priority. We wouldn't want to give people ideas, after all...

Hm. Can we fake a charm/sorcery residue or something to make it seem to an investigator that we changed shape as an effect or side-effect of magic, in a misdirection ploy?
>>
No. 72579 ID: 5d121c

>>72575
demons can look like anything, there is nothing about horns in particular that would scream demon

in fact, horns say lunar more than they say demon

investigating us would mostly come down to observation and deduction

magic brute force wouldnt really work for more than say, they use an artifact on us that reveals our essence level... which may be wonky with our weird cumulative essence from our devas, but even that wouldnt get anyone closer to the truth than "she smells wrong" as that lunar put it

i kind of doubt we could get them to believe were a titan if we shouted it at them, at least not without a lot of work besides
>>
No. 72667 ID: 47a120

>>72574
I am not sure. I am almost tempted to just play it off by being making mysterious vague allusions to having done something to better prepare ourselves. Worst case scenario lunars think we are starting to mutate.

I wish we could just be honest about what we are, but its far too dangerous a path.
>>
No. 72668 ID: f2c20c

You guys realize we still have 1 TW, right? We could probably just change Sulanna's body directly.
>>
No. 72672 ID: 2645fa

>>72668

I doubt that's enough.

solution: eat more ghosts. fuck humanity.
>>
No. 72679 ID: 16779c

>>72672
We do have the ability to un-buy abilities. Going to excess with that might lead to micromanagement madness, but we could easily handle unbuying the last level of Ease/Efficiency of Consumption, then re-buying them when we get our hands on a nommable ghost. There's basically no other situation in which we NEED those abilities, save battling a high-powered spirit.

In short, I'd say we have 3 TW easily available. (And if our plan turns out to require less than that, we can spend the remainder on Beauty or some social-type ability.)
>>
No. 72681 ID: 5d121c

Or we could also try to get through the situation without expending any TW.

We could easily just be obstinate about going with the lunars and that would be that. I doubt they'd attack us. We could also hide and sneak out when daytime comes around so we can leave the shadowland.

Not everything has to be
>spend
>spend
>spend
>>
No. 72686 ID: f2c20c

>>72681
Wyld-afflicted Lunars turn into murder monsters. Even if we manage to convince them not to force Saulanna to go with them, they will put her under surveillance, which we really do not want.

Either we fix it directly via TW, or we make sure they don't find out at all, which would be difficult but maybe possible with Akatrina's help.
>>
No. 72699 ID: 5d121c

>>72686
They turn into chimerae after a lot of time dicking around, not instantly.

I really doubt we'll have enough TW to fix it any time soon. But there's a bunch of other things we can do. And getting Akatrina's help is probably worse than having the lunars look for us. We could lose either by making that stealth deva though, if it comes to it.
>>
No. 72719 ID: f2c20c

>>72699
Did you forget we can increase any of Sulanna's physical stats significantly for very little TW? I'm fairly confident that making her shorter and losing the horns could cost as little as 1 TW.
>>
No. 72721 ID: 5d121c

>>72719
I'm fairly sure Kairosa wouldn't be so unsure about it if it were that easy.
>>
No. 72724 ID: f2c20c

>>72721
The reason she would be unsure about it is the horns might be PART OF HER now due to Kairosa's mere existence, and thus completely unchangeable.

I'm sure we can change the height though.
>>
No. 72730 ID: 5d121c

>>72724
Not necessarily. The height is likely because of the higher essence everyone got. It might be just as problematic as the horns.

And the horns are more problematic than the height anyway. Being bigger doesn't mean much, at least not until we get a lot bigger. A mix of different animal traits would say wyld taint and chimerism and make people nervous.
>>
No. 72736 ID: e11062

You don't suppose we could simply file down the horns? Even if they grow back over-night, it would save us some TW in the short term.
(Medium-term, I'd prefer to lose the horns and keep the size, concentrating on not growing *inhumanly* tall.)
>>
No. 72750 ID: cee89f

>>72736
Or style Saulanna's hair so they're hidden. Maybe put on a hat. Seriously guys, the horns are the easy part.
>>
No. 72751 ID: 5d121c

>>72736
I don't know about filing them down. Might be a problem too, because of what they represent.

But if we're going for a solution like that, why not just get a hat?
>>
No. 72760 ID: 47a120

>>72679
our unbuy ability is currently limited to 1TW powers.
Well, technically we could unbuy a more expensive one and just lose all the extra TW.

>>72681
>Or we could also try to get through the situation without expending any TW.
True
>>
No. 72762 ID: 47a120

Lunars are innate shapeshifters. They even automatically add new forms to their repertoire by eating the hearts of things, yes?
We could just go out in our animal form and make adorable puppy eyes at them... or warform (which is probably considered rude but will hide things well enough).
We might be able to just use lunar shapeshifting to return to previous form and if not use the 1TW to add our baseline "original" form to our repertoire.
We might even find and eat the heart of a young human female and claim her form is our "true" form all along... but I am really loathe to do that.
>>
No. 72767 ID: e11062

>>72760
iirc, if we unbuy a more expensive ability, that ability is merely disabled until we put that one TW back.

>Hat
If we can electrify or otherwise boobytrap it, then yes. Otherwise, well...
>>/questarch/435226
>>
No. 72768 ID: 5d121c

>>72762
we go and continue the meeting as a big raccoon with a hat

perfect solution, zero cost
>>
No. 72769 ID: 5d121c

>>72767
we can just step away if he tries that again, it only worked cause of the surprise

but i doubt he would try it again, he was trying to find our caste mark, he isnt gonna go looking for it again
>>
No. 72770 ID: e11062

>>72769
...Now I want us to wear a hat regardless of what we do about the horns - just to confirm that Garmir can and will manhandle it at the slightest suspicion that we're hiding something under it.
And of course it needs to be boobytrapped.
>>
No. 72771 ID: cee89f
File 137212766931.jpg - (29.18KB , 550x354 , Mens-Hats-Black-Stetson-Stallion-Cowboy-Hat.jpg )
72771

>>72768
Hopefully we can find a stetson.

Raccoon in a stetson. Tell me that ain't cute.

>>72767
Thought of that! We'll stab him in the gut if he even gets that close. Then we can either turn him into our Akuma or drop-kick him over the nearest fence.

=D

...Maybe we could do both. ^^ Fun~
>>
No. 72782 ID: 47a120

>>72768
>big raccoon with a hat
That would look utterly adorable.
Does looking adorable give you bonuses to Social Kombat?
>>
No. 72783 ID: 35037e

But, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for the height AND the horns.

Saulanna upgraded her animal to the rare and deadly DIRE RACCOON.
>>
No. 72792 ID: cee89f

>>72783
1) Luna told us previously that you can't change your totem animal once it's selected. So no dire raccoon for us =(
2) Dire animals are larger, fiercer and possibly more rabid versions of an animal, so it would definitely explain the size, but why would it get horns?
>>
No. 72794 ID: f920f8

>>72771

it wouldn't be cute. but it would be pretty badass.
>>
No. 72795 ID: 5d121c

>>72792
theres no way the other guys would know it isnt our totem animal

the bigger problem is dire raccoons dont exist in creation
>>
No. 72797 ID: cf49fc

>>72795
It's Creation. Someone, SOMEWHERE has at some point created a Dire Racoon. If you're desperate, you can become an Autocthonian Mecha-Racoon, eighty-feet-tall and made of pure soulsteel.
>>
No. 72798 ID: 2fc3e9

>>72797
Not since the Dragon unmade soulsteel you can't.
>>
No. 72799 ID: 47a120

>>72798
I thought he only unmade its benefits rather then unmaking it.
All the soul-steel created still exists, he altered reality so it no longer has any useful magical properties. (and maybe also so more cannot be created, not sure).

>>72794
>it wouldn't be cute. but it would be pretty badass.
How would raccoon form saulanna wearing a hat drawn in jukashi style NOT be cute?
>>
No. 72802 ID: 5d121c

>>72797
yeah sure, but that wouldnt help us with the lunars right now, would it

given the choice between thinking lunar on the way to chimera and lunar with a genesis crafted totem, theyd pick chimera

i also cant see a lunar exaltation bound to a creature like that

im pretty sure the totem is always the same across exalts all the way back to the primordial war
>>
No. 72804 ID: cee89f

>>72794
Eh, Lunars respond better to badass anyway.

>>72795
If they couldn't tell what our totem was then why would we tell them it 'upgraded' to explain the changes in the first place? If it was always a Dire raccoon then nothing would've changed so telling them our totem is a dire raccoon would be pointless.

>>72799
I think Peregrin specifically said the soulsteel was unmade. Excuse me while I go check.

>How would raccoon form saulanna wearing a hat drawn in jukashi style NOT be cute?

There is no word in the english language that accurately describes the agreement and sheer YES!! i am feeling right now.

Wordblood, suggestions?
>>
No. 72805 ID: 47a120

>>72804
>If they couldn't tell what our totem was then why would we tell them it 'upgraded' to explain the changes in the first place? If it was always a Dire raccoon then nothing would've changed so telling them our totem is a dire raccoon would be pointless.
Pretty much. "Our spirit animal changed" is a bad argument to make since it can't change.
>>
No. 72806 ID: 77b6b1

>>72799
>I thought he only unmade its benefits rather then unmaking it.
>All the soul-steel created still exists, he altered reality so it no longer has any useful magical properties. (and maybe also so more cannot be created, not sure).

All the soulsteel that was made in the Underworld and Creation was unmade. It crumbled to ashy rock and all the souls imprisoned in it were freed, though what happened to them after that varies. Autochthonian soulsteel still exists, though.

Something similar but not quite the same happened to first age/shogunate magitech. Old stuff still works, autochthonian stuff as well, but trying to make new stuff in Creation with old methods doesn't. Scholars theorize that the Dragon's Shadow subtly profaned everything in the world a little, so that the old factory-cathedral process of sanctifying every tiny gear and plate doesn't work properly. New methods are being developed.

>>72802
In this version of the setting, at least, Lunar Exaltations have strong themes, but are variable. Several of the prior exaltations of this one had raccoon totems, but not all of them. And most were the same caste, but not all of them. It tended to choose hosts that continued its personal themes, but a host with a strong identity in a particular direction would override that.

Lunars are chosen for their capacity for survival; if the world is in a state where more warriors are surviving, having more Full Moons helps. More sagey types surviving, more No Moons. Mutability and adaptation are the particular mark of the Moon Hero, so I figure it makes sense that the Lunar sparks would have this unique ability. I forget whether it's canon or fanon or something in between, but I also recall the idea that if the human race went extinct, Lunar Exaltations would take animals as hosts, and grant them the ability to turn into humans. I like that sort of thing.

And it's one of the many factors in explaining why Saulanna doesn't work like a Devil Tiger, if anyone was ever wondering that.
>>
No. 72811 ID: 5d121c

>>72806
thanks for clearing that up, i like it like this much better, the whole thing with totems always being the same across exalts and similar for solar animas always bothered me for some reason
>>
No. 72812 ID: 47a120

>>72806
>Autochthonian soulsteel still exists
What is the difference between underworld and Autochthonian soulsteel?

>Devil Tigers
these guys? http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Howl_of_the_Devil-Tiger

>but I also recall the idea that if the human race went extinct, Lunar Exaltations would take animals as hosts, and grant them the ability to turn into humans.
speaking of humans going extinct. I looked at the dragon blooded formula and a few dragon blooded males with the drive and the will could, in under 50 years, create a world where 90% of mortals exalt as dragon blooded. (heck, just 1 can do it if he is dedicated, comes from good stock, and doesn't mind the incest.

It is a crunch vs fluff conflict. The fluff says that the bloodlines dilute, the crunch is that they massively concentrate due to Lamarckian inheritance.
>>
No. 72814 ID: 5d121c

>>72812
i wonder what it would take to get someone to ST that
>>
No. 72815 ID: 5d121c

>>72812
if i remember right, and its possible i dont, autochthon created the magical materials first, only after that did the various exalted adopt different ones

there were always questions about soulsteel and adamant and what theyre supposed to represent, since neither seemed to have a corresponding exalt for a very long time, and soulsteel got abyssals very far down the road

most guesses are that there were gods and exalt types for both adamant and soulsteel back during the primordial war, but the three spheres cataclysm retroactively deleted those, while it couldnt do anything about autochthons metals themselves

probably why autochthonian soulsteel still exists in lunar quest
>>
No. 72816 ID: dd52fd

>>72812
From the white wolf wiki:
"Originally Soulsteel was a fusion of the souls from a forgotten race that rebelled against the primordials, with the metal of the Maker's own body. This form of the metal which predates humanity, can now only be found in Autochthonia. The Neverborn possibly used Autochthon's blueprints to make their own version of Soulsteel from human souls."
>>
No. 72820 ID: dd52fd

>if the human race went extinct, Lunar Exaltations would take animals as hosts, and grant them the ability to turn into humans.
That's awesome. Which reminds me, I was actually considering using something like that for a cover story - that Peregrin was doing blasphemous experiments that caused a raccoon to exalt :)
Would certainly explain why we're a bit odd, but ultimately, it's a bit too unbelievable, forcing an exaltation like that.
>>
No. 72821 ID: 5d121c

>>72820
and it conflicts with a stuff we already know about saulannas past
>>
No. 72822 ID: f920f8

>>72821

like what
>>
No. 72824 ID: dd52fd

>>72821
I said, a COVER story.
As in, we fabricate evidence for this version of events, hide it in inaccessible places, and when an intrepid investigator pursues our backstory, that is the incredible story they find. If nothing else, if they see through that, they'll likely think the "infant Titan" story they dig up next is just another fanciful deception...
>>
No. 72829 ID: 77b6b1

>>72812
>The fluff says that the bloodlines dilute, the crunch is that they massively concentrate due to Lamarckian inheritance.

Well, you have to consider as well that it's not just a matter of breeding. If I recall, you have to have a heroic soul for the breeding to be activated (or for any exaltation to catch on you, though possibly the deathlords or the yozis could force such a thing with their stolen ones). If it doesn't activate, then no matter how much good blood you carry, your children won't carry the best blood. And that sets up the delicious "the spirit of man has declined" story with a world that produces less heroes also producing less magic.

If it were me, I would also make it so that Dragon-Blooded all draw off a common reservoir of power (like their strength is linked to the strength of the terrestrial world, or the elemental dragons, or such) and if that source is weakened or you try to make too many dragon-blooded the power gets diluted and eventually stops being passed on until some of the old ones die.

And it may be that something like that is in fact how I made it work in Lunar Quest.
>>
No. 72831 ID: 5d121c

>>72822
like kairosa telling us to gather our human belongings to get a past reading on them and the fact that everything about saulanna in the inner world is manifesting as human, not as raccoony
>>
No. 72832 ID: cee89f

>>72831
And? It's a cover story, we're supposed to lie.

>>72829
Eh, if it is, we probably won't find out for a while. It's not like Akatrina or Askalaff have a DB in their respective entourages, right?

...

...Right?
>>
No. 72836 ID: 5d121c

>>72832
>>72824

well it doesnt really cover anything that needs covering
>>
No. 72839 ID: cee89f

>>72836
Earlier you said (ctrl+v)
>and it conflicts with a stuff we already know about saulannas past
which makes no sense if you're trying to say that our cover story covers nothing. Doubly so when you consider how little we know of Saulanna's past.

Besides, the thing you say it contradicts:
>like kairosa telling us to gather our human belongings to get a past reading on them and the fact that everything about saulanna in the inner world is manifesting as human, not as raccoony
isn't a contradiction at all, since the Lunars don't know this information.

Personally I object to it on the grounds of it being a little too unbelievable (an incredible feat considering the actual events here) but I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly your objection is here.
>>
No. 72842 ID: 5d121c

>>72839
how do you figure that

it conflicts with what we know of saulanna - we know she wasnt a raccoon

people said that doesnt matter because we'd be using this as a lie to cover ourselves

well, it doesnt work that way either, it doesnt cover anything that needs to be covered

nobody who wanted to know about us would be thrown off by it, all it would add is silliness

using it would just be pointless
>>
No. 72852 ID: cee89f

>>72842
>it conflicts with what we know of saulanna - we know she wasnt a raccoon
>people said that doesnt matter because we'd be using this as a lie to cover ourselves
... And they're correct. It doesn't matter if it's untrue when the point is to lie.

>using it would just be pointless
Oh. Well yeah, I agree with ya there.
>>
No. 72856 ID: 5d121c

>>72852
yes, i know theyre correct? where are you going with this
>>
No. 72877 ID: cee89f

>>72856
We're already there. Earlier you said there was a contradiction that would mean the cover story would fall apart, but you have since clarified your stance as 'using this cover story is silly and pointless'.

And you're right. So we're done.

Want some pineapple? I've got like four.
>>
No. 72882 ID: 5d121c

>>72877
nah ive got these apricots right now and theyre great, but thanks
>>
No. 72916 ID: 47a120

>>72814
Well, how much is there to actually ST? "I do X" "... time skip, it happened, its now 50 years later and 90% of the mortals exalt as DB, welcome to hardmode".

>>72829
an elegant solution.

>>72882
I am just eating an apricot! You know apricot seeds are used as a poor man's marbles in some parts of the world.
>>
No. 72993 ID: 44cc9b

>>72882
*omnomnomnom* suit yourself *omnomnom*

>apricots
So we all know the plan, now? Good, I won't have to explain. I'll get the monkey. MrTT, I need you to get the honey mustard while 5d121c gets the apricots into the space-helicopter.

...

On a (slightly) more serious note: When the Celestials inevitably learn of us, what's our plan? Assume worst-case scenario on our end: We have no good deeds under our belt and we can't fight them off (cuz, ya know, CELESTIAL G0DS. Plus Heroes.)
>>
No. 72997 ID: 5d121c

>>72993
We're gonna be revealed sooner or later and all the various big rivals out there will know about us. We need to make allies of some of the powers that be or we'll be crushed. I think the incarnae and/or Gaia are a better choice than the others we have, such as the Dragon's Shadow, the Yozis or even the Neverborn if we tried to dig them up. The only other somewhat reasonable choice would be Autochthon but we'd kinda clash in theme with him and he's probably still in a coma anyway.

I still think we should get a light deva before we're revealed and keep it a secret until then. Actions are louder than words, and having a deva directly opposed to the most dangerous titan out there and allied by nature to all of the incarnae and a good portion of Gaia is bound to come across as a very honest and direct statement.
>>
No. 73003 ID: 629004

>Worst-case scenario

One possibility is to escape.
I can see five places of relative safety for us, if/when we are discovered:
*The Wyld
*The Underworld (Dragon's Shadow)
*Autochthon,
*Hell, and
*Elsewhere (our Inner World)

>The Wyld
We'd be able to survive, but if it was a nice restful place, the Titan's wouldn't have made Creation to begin with. Expect to suffer escalating attacks from Fae until we are driven back into Creation. We might be able to ally with Moon Hero scouts - unless Luna has become hostile to us - and possibly the chimeras we come across, if we can figure out how to cure them.

>Dragon's Shadow
Probably the safest place, and easily accessible through the nearest shadowland. It is in DS's interest to have more Titans about, especially ones he has good relations with. He will feed us and hug us and pet us and call us George and hopefully won't be too smothering.

>Autochthon
Not my choice of genre, but there's lots of crowds to hide in, and it's likely they've got portals or something for access to Creation. If we help fix the Big Bot, we would have a very powerful ally. Just look out for potential assassins from Creation...

>Hell
Dangerous place, but there's a lot to learn, a lot to fix, and we might cozy up to the Sphere of Speech for immediate support. I... THINK... we'd be able to leave whenever we want; I got the impression that the inability to leave Hell is a property instilled into Yozis, not one inherent to Titans or to Hell itself.

>Inner World
If we can get a sizable immigrant population, or widespread cults of worshipers outside, we don't really need anything else to continue to grow. We can develop powers to let us touch creation through our worshippers. Send out raiding parties to libraries, swallow an island here and there to add to our landscape. Just make sure we don't end up like Autochthon...
>>
No. 73004 ID: 3bad4c

>When the Celestials inevitably learn of us, what's our plan?
Maybe those Celestial exalted will think "Finally, something that can get rid of the rest of those 99% dead titans" and encourage Saulanna to eat them all.

And that would last maybe 1-2 weeks until the Unconquered Sun can pull himself away from those addictive deific games that I've heard about.

Maybe I'm not sure what I'm talking about.
>>
No. 73006 ID: 5d121c

>>73004
The celestial exalted could get rid of anything themselves if they got their acts together.

>>73003
>The Wyld
It's a possibility. We could follow Gaia and search through the faraway for the titans that left before the primordial war. They're bound to be more friendly than the other choices we have. Or at least none of them should be predisposed to hostility. Probably.

But then we could just go to Gaia like I'm suggesting.

>The Dragon's Shadow
No. Just no.

>Autochthon
Lots of the same problems we have in Creation. There are heroes there and the whole place might be unfriendly to us. Plus, Autochthon is probably still asleep so we couldn't really diplomatize or learn anything from him.

>Hell
It could work if we were desperate. Marginally better than going to the Dragon's Shadow. A good last resort.

>Inner World
I think this isn't a good option until we have a much more evolved inner world. We'd need it to be self sustaining to cut off from Creation. As long as we're still siphoning power from other places it isn't a good hiding place.
>>
No. 73010 ID: f2c20c

>>73006
>No. Just no.
Do you have a reason to be against visiting a fellow Titan? If you think he is evil, Wordblood is the only person who can give us that sort of information, and so far he has said he doesn't really know. From the Dragon's Shadow's actions thus far and the testimony of BOTH of the Death Heroes present, he is not evil.

Why do you think visiting the Yozis, who we know even less of, is a safer bet?
>>
No. 73012 ID: 44cc9b

>>73010
I agree that the yozis are a much riskier bet than DS, but to be frank both death heroes are heavily biased for him. And one of those death heroes has openly admitted that he doesnt think DS is trustworthy enough to work with.

Despite all the good DS's done, despite having an aura that aligns with a death hero, and despite being encouraged and lectured constantly by other death heroes on how he should have closer ties to DS, he's still apprehensive. Think about that for a second: Despite all of this aligning perfectly to make him have closer ties with DS, he still doesn't want to because he's not convinced DS is a good guy.

Also, Death deva.

(Though I guess he could mean that Creation and Hell would gun for us harder if we went to DS than creation and DS would if we went to hell...)
>>
No. 73013 ID: f2c20c

>>73012
Wait what? That wasn't the impression I got at all.
>>
No. 73014 ID: 44cc9b

>>73013
...Er, which part specifically? I can quote what statement led me to draw that conclusion =/
>>
No. 73022 ID: 46b70d
File 137254928331.jpg - (42.45KB , 480x720 , 1351751795749.jpg )
73022

>The Dragon's Shadow

...I think if the Dragon's Shadow got wind of someone *trusting* him, he'd be horribly offended and try his best to correct it.
Which doesn't mean he's NOT a jolly good fellow.

I mean, I dunno about canon!DS, but from what I can tell, this version is basically a cosmic trickster like Loki/Coyote taken to eleven, and an all-around awesomeness dispenser. He literally powers himself up by making Creation a better place.

That said, I'm wary of actually standing within plotting range of him. He'll involve us in some fantastically complicated caper where he QUINTUPLE-crosses us, and by the time we bow out, we'll have grown as a person and a Titan, and learned several important lessons - one of which is *not to get involved* with the Dragon's Shadow. Because that's just how he rolls. But I don't think he'll *hurt* us. Just, you know, exploit, extort, expose, extradite, extricate and all-around exasperate us.

So, um, I don't think we should AIM to meet with DS until we're ready to play with the big boys - and until have planned out three different escape routes from Creation. But I don't have anything *against* him, per se, and he might be a good Titan to have on adjacent to our side, if things have already fallen into pieces and there isn't much more damage he can do.
>>
No. 73023 ID: cf49fc
File 137255426667.png - (16.36KB , 892x495 , Ebon Dragon Minimum Safe Distance.png )
73023

>>73022
You fool, don't you realize? The Ebon Dragon doesn't HAVE a minimum plotting safe distance. He purposefully screws over HIMSELF.
>>
No. 73030 ID: 44cc9b

>>73023
How does that work with the "enlightened self-interest" he's supposed to have now?
>>
No. 73032 ID: cf49fc
File 137256082713.png - (13.90KB , 892x495 , He\'s tricksy is what I\'m saying.png )
73032

>>73030
It's all part of the plan.
>>
No. 73033 ID: 44cc9b

>>73032
-.-

So, what, DS is Tzeentch?

....

QUICK! Who would win in a fight, DS or Tzeentch?!
>>
No. 73034 ID: cf49fc

>>73033
No-One Else.
>>
No. 73035 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73033
Neither of them fight, dummy. They plot.
>>
No. 73036 ID: b64ef2

>>73033

they'd end in a pact. a sexy pact.
>>
No. 73037 ID: 44cc9b

>>73035
1) Yes they do. ED has a statsheet (i think) and part of Tzeentch's whole shtick is that the other chaos gods all teamed up together, fought him and kicked his ass once because he was such a threat.

2) You can win a fight through plotting, buddy. :p It's called the Batman gambit... or maybe the Xanatos gambit, i keep getting the two confused.

>>73036
... I was honestly expecting "They're the same person" but okay, that works too :P
>>
No. 73038 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73037
Fair. And to be serious, they'd both lose. The Ebon Dragon can never win anything in the long run due to his own nature. He can't let anyone, including himself, succeed at anything. He's only dangerous because of collateral damage.

And Tzeentch can't win, either, or he stops having a reason to exist. He purposefully plots against himself.
>>
No. 73039 ID: 44cc9b

>>73038
Wait, I thought that Tzeentch just didn't HAVE an ultimate goal to succeed at to begin with... You're saying he can't even win if he DOES have a goal?
>>
No. 73041 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73039
I'm fairly sure his nature means he can't really have a "ultimate" goal. He does stuff for shits and giggles and makes sure he can keep doing it forever. By never winning too much.
>>
No. 73044 ID: 5d121c

>>73010
The Yozis are a better bet because even though they're insane from their lobotomies and imprisonment, there's still plenty of what made them good guys in there. At least, good in regards to someone like us. We could definitely get to that if we tried, as they would see us as one of their own. Sure they all have their own agendas but at least those agendas are things that can be constructively worked with. There's a chance that they wouldn't screw us over, and if they would it might still be manageable. Neither can be said for the DS.
>>
No. 73047 ID: fe3788

I feel the need to point out that a lot of this conjecture is being based on the Ebon Dragon, rather than The Dragon's Shadow. I would also point out that since their nature is so central to the quest, differences between Exalted's primordials and Lunar Quest's Titans are some of the most likely changes between the two.

Partly because the primordials are deliberately written to be mystifying, so that they can be tailored into plot devices by Storytellers, while in LQ we're building and controlling one so they need to be made to make a little more sense.
>>
No. 73048 ID: cf49fc

>>73047
Ha! The Leopard cannot change his shorts. I'd never trust anything even tangenitally related to the Ebon Dragon. For that reason I don't trust UCS.
>>
No. 73049 ID: 44cc9b

>>73048
He's the Shadow of All Things.

ALL things.

So therefore, you trust nothing O_O
>>
No. 73051 ID: f5aee5

>Word of God
Duly noted.

Actually, I only know the very basics about Canon!ED. I bought the Exalted corebook because I wanted to understand KoC a bit better, but I didn't branch out much beyond that. I got the impression from the internet that the Exalted books are a bit... self-contradictory, with many writers working at cross-purposes, and so the level of intellectual investment required to sort it all out seemed too high when it was just for the sake of sating my curiosity.
So I know basically what's on the wikis, which is pretty bare of fluff.

So, anyway, what do you guys figure the difference is between The Ebon Dragon and The Dragon's Shadow?
The soul lobotomy was meant to make him relatively harmless, right? Then maybe the self-defeating behavior patterns are because of that? - because a major moderating element was killed off.
If so, a restored Dragon's Shadow would be capable of enlightened self-interest.

A thought: the DS->ED transformation is described as the lightest soul surgery among the Yozis, leaving the ED fairly unchanged. If the whole Red Sun event was done in order to resurrect/replace his missing souls - wouldn't it be kind of overpowered for that purpose? As in, maybe the moderating elements in DS are now stronger than ever?
>>
No. 73053 ID: 3dd384

This is mostly brainstorming. Salt to taste.

>>73051
In the books, the original transition of Dragon's Shadow to Ebon Dragon came about not because of treaty soul-tampering, but because of the creation of the Unconquered Sun - it meant he had someone whose shadow he could primarily be (since Ligier's light casts no shadows). Hence the Ebon Dragon's focus in the books on being devoid of compassion, conviction, temperance or valor.

Viewed in that context, perhaps the Red Sun changes the rules for the Dragon's Shadow for the same reason that shadows behave differently in a room with multiple, differently-colored light sources. For example, perhaps when he is focused on being the Red Sun's shadow, the absence and antithesis of "protection, sacrifice, vengeance, remorse and resolve", it is less important that he also eschew "compassion, conviction, temperance and valor".
>>
No. 73055 ID: cf49fc

>>73049
Exactly.
>>
No. 73059 ID: 44cc9b

>>73053
I was under the impression he became the Dragon's Shadow because of the UCS (up until then he'd simply been a shadow in the back of the primordial's minds, referred to as the Shadow of All Things) and then became the Ebon Dragon when he was turned into a Yozi.
>>
No. 73063 ID: 47a120

>>73051
>So, anyway, what do you guys figure the difference is between The Ebon Dragon and The Dragon's Shadow?
As I understand it, the ebon dragon, in addition to being lobotomized, has been bound to never escape. Being so opposed to being bound he had to escape even if it meant his life. So he transformed himself into someone different. Different enough that it no longer counted as "him".
So I figure the differences are vast.
>>
No. 73064 ID: 44cc9b

>>73063
Especially when you consider that, according to Peregrin, he stained the endless desert with his own blood from the act for over a century.
>>
No. 73088 ID: 84f167

Oh hey, since Jukashi checks out this thread from time to time, I had a boring/complex question regarding Kairosa's abilities that might benefit from some mulling over during the hiatus period.

Kairosa: Could you comment on the combination of dedicated TW / Unbuying?
If I gather the rules correctly, we could theoretically dedicate TW generation to a specific 1-TW ability, unbuy it afterwards, rinse and repeat - for a free sevenfold increase in free TW over time. Only, this seems like a broken combo, and my intuition is that it shouldn't work, or would have some kind of horrific drawback...
Keeping that in mind, what actually *happens* if we unbuy an ability bought with dedicated TW? Do we only get 1/7 TW from it? Then we'd have a pool of recoonfigurable TW, and another of semi-permanent abilities which could be converted to the former only at a punishing exchange rate...
Which could be cool, but it's best if we know of it beforehand.

Or, I guess, it could be working as designed, if it's just the gathering process that's inefficient and having somewhere to put the half-finished TW just gives that much of a boost...

(Sorry for being a bit of a rules lawyer. Quite possibly, nobody was ever going to try this exploit before I pointed it out. I guess it's simply in my nature to spot loopholes like that, so they can be fixed.)
>>
No. 73110 ID: 4bb6ff
File 137281228033.png - (65.27KB , 400x500 , kairosadrawnalittlemorelooselydoesitlookgood.png )
73110

>>73088

"It's good thinking Imbrotep, but it doesn't work that way! When I "unbuy" an ability, I'm not just sucking the resources back out of it, I'm literally reversing the process by which it was bought, using my time powers! There's a little bit of temporal shenanigans involved, especially if it's partial or if it's an ability that's actually been used in the intervening time, but nothing me and myself can't handle, it balances out, don't worry about it. What does that mean for your scenario, though? It means I can't unbuy abilities that are made by dedicated production! Not yet, anyway. Spending "loose" Titan's Will to buy an ability only takes a moment, so I only have to rewind a moment. An ability built over a longer span of time is much harder for me get the ol' control-z on, and I'm not going to be able to do it until I'm way way stronger!"

"That's part of why there's an actual decision between dedicated production and making loose Will, you know? The former is more efficient over the long term, but the latter is more flexible, and this is an extension of that. Tell you what, though; if you want something that's been building over time finished, you can top up whatever the remainder is with any loose Will you have handy. No fractions, though."

>>
No. 73115 ID: b99cb6

>>73110
>kairosadrawnalittlemorelooselydoesitlookgood.png
I think the eyes area and mouth suffer a tad too much, the rest is fine. You have to be careful with that mask visage of hers because its easy to mess up I think.
>>
No. 73116 ID: cf49fc

>>73110
I agree with ^ on the eyes. But I really like the ears and horns.
>>
No. 73118 ID: 44cc9b

Saulanna just made a cameo in Polokoa Quest... the deva, not the Titan.
>>
No. 73119 ID: 44cc9b

>>73115
Also, agreed.
>>
No. 73122 ID: 47a120

>>73110
wouldn't you also be able to just undo the last few moments of such an act and just end up with 1 dedicated TW that can only be used for one specific ability (the one being unbought). Which would be kinda pointless barring exceptional circumstances.

>>73115
what?
>>
No. 73124 ID: 1ff514

>>73110
Good to have that cleared up. Thanks!

OK guys, you know what that means: If we happen to get a few weeks of resting time (yeah right, as if), we should unbuy our current 1-TW-abilities one by one - starting with the least-used - and re-buy them the 'proper' way, regaining a cache of emergency free TW.
This is a solid plan which will in no way come back to bite us in the ass when some busybody notices small-scale time shenanigans happening on a regular basis in a localized area.
>>
No. 73125 ID: 1ff514

>art criticism
Agreeing with previous posters; eyes are what people tend to focus on most in a face, so that area should have some extra attention. Other than that, A-OK.
>>
No. 73132 ID: 47a120

>>73125
seriously what?
I don't see anything wrong with her eyes
>>
No. 73135 ID: 5d121c

>>73132
the mask and eyes do seem a bit stretched out

but it doesnt really bother me, so id say theres nothing wrong too
>>
No. 73137 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73125
Agreeing with this.
>>
No. 73138 ID: ce3c8e

>>73125
Though I should add that it's more than good enough for a quick Q&A pic - I was more interested in the text, and wouldn't have given the pic a second glance except for the filename.
>>
No. 73139 ID: 44cc9b

What's an Imbrotep?

>Art
I'd like to clarify my earlier position: it's perfectly fine for a Q&A pic, but the eyes and mask do seem a bit stretched.

>>73132
Compare it to, say, the title card. It's not all that bad, it's just... a little off.
>>
No. 73141 ID: 44cc9b

>>73139
... and everyone's said exactly that already >.> Excuse me while i go facepalm till i bleed.
>>
No. 73153 ID: ce3c8e

>>73139
Imhotep + bro
Imhotep was a dude from ancient history, who (checks wikipedia) was basically the Egyptian version av Leonardo da Vinci. Also, so competent a doctor that after his death he was worshiped as a god of medicine.
>>
No. 73582 ID: cee89f

>>73110
... Would it be possible to do a similar rewinding for spells, abilities and such others cast that don't use Titan's Will? Say, for instance, someone put up a shield around themselves. Could we 'rewind' that so the wall disappeared and the person regained their power?

>>73153
Ah. Thanks.
>>
No. 73624 ID: 9f7acd

>>73582
>rewinding
All that seems like perfectly valid powers we could get. Just need to spend the TW for it.
>>
No. 73628 ID: f5356d

>>73582
I think that for the most part, this Ability would take more power than it's worth. Since it's hard-core reality warping, it should take way more power than simply breaking the shield (maybe it's even powered by TW). On the other hand, as long as it's just a few seconds, there's a limit to the things that has to be retconned.
And admittedly it would be handy to have if, say, someone we know gets vaporized - it would probably be less costly than raising someone from the dead.
>>
No. 73641 ID: 5d121c

How fast can the rewind thing be done? because if it's really fast, like I suspect from the fact that Kairosa can manipulate our internal time and do things faster that way, wouldn't it be fair to say that we can have any 1TW ability at any time we like, therefore we have access to all of them at all times so there's no reason to even worry about picking different ones? The only difference I can think of is if we needed to have access to multiple abilities simultaneously, but charms and spells and such in exalted don't work that way anyway for the most part.
>>
No. 73642 ID: ecd0ab

>>73641
It's probably not limited by time so much as like, power. The kind that regenerates automatically and when we use too much of it we glow a lot. It probably costs a point to rewind something.
>>
No. 73650 ID: cee89f

>>73628
I figured it would help against shields we weren't strong enough to break or something that would kill us to try. I mean sure, if we can just punch it liek a baws, we should just punch it liek a baws.

>Too much power
Eh, from the way Kairosa described it, it would only cost us the TW to make the ability. Actually using it would maybe require some moon/titan power, but not more TW.

>>73641
I don't think rewinding is free - didn't it cost power?

I think we could elaborate on the plan for free TW outlined here
>>73088
From the way Kairosa describes it, dedicated production is less like making TW for an ability and more like permanently reducing the ability's cost. (bear with me). So we can't pull out dedicated will. But we CAN pull out free will, and both work for a given ability, right?

So instead of trying to pull out the dedicated will, could we pull the free TW out of it, then put dedicated production in to fill it up, etc etc, so that we only needed to have so much TW at once?

Like, say we bought a 3 TW ability. Then we unbuy it, so we have 1 of those 3 TW. Then we use dedicated production to make the 1 will remaining. Then we pull out another of the free wills, rinse and repeat, until all three of the TW needed for the ability are dedicated will, and we have 3 will to spend elsewhere.

granted, it's still a bit of a time sink and wouldn't work well for short-term power gains, but it could work long-term.

... I guess the main question for this scenario is, can we pull out loose will from an ability that also has dedicated will spent towards it? Like if we 'topped it off', as Kairosa suggested, could we later pull out the loose will and finish it off with dedicated will?
>>
No. 73651 ID: f5356d

>>73642
Good point. Also, I'm guessing if we do too much reshuffling, some celestial busybody will notice that something's up, and then we'll have a Star Hero snooping around.
Which could be cool and interesting, but only *after* we learn to convincingly fake having a fate, so we don't stand out like a sore thumb to their fate-o-vision or whatever it is they have.
>>
No. 73652 ID: f5356d

>>73650
I'm guessing we can't pull more than one free TW out of an ability, simply because that would make the upgrades to the Reconstitution ability fairly worthless.
Anyway, pulling out one free TW from each ability we have and topping them off with dedicated TW will still take us more than a week to accomplish.
>>
No. 73662 ID: cee89f

>>73652
I guess, but is that one at a time, or one in total?
>more than a week to accomplish.
Yeah, this is a long-term thing.
>>
No. 73692 ID: f5356d

>>73662
One in total. It's fairly logical, when you consider it: If we have a 3-TW ability, then as we got that ability, the 3 TW were spent in order, not all at once. Kairosa can pull out the last of those spent TW and replace it. ONLY that last TW is available. With an upgrade, she can pull out the last 2 TW, undoing both the dedication and a free TW. (POSSIBLY reusing the dedication, but that's not certain.)
Much like digging a well or constructing a building; you have to start from the right end.
So that's the Watsonian perpective.
From a Doylist point of view, if Kairosa's ability could pull out more than 1 TW total, then the upgrade to the ability would be practically useless, instead of a big deal. It would be *unbalanced*.
Now, admittedly, this is all pure speculation from my side, but I would be very surprised if it were not so.
>>
No. 73759 ID: cee89f

>>73692
...I guess that makes sense.

...

So!

...

Where would we get a stetson?
>>
No. 73779 ID: f5356d

>Stetson
No - rather than that,
we should get a FEDORA,
to go with our whip ;)
>>
No. 73780 ID: beeca1
File 137422641089.jpg - (412.89KB , 1200x1600 , 3e2.jpg )
73780

>>73779
Nnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooo.
>>
No. 73784 ID: 2ca3d7
File 137423412838.jpg - (112.08KB , 640x583 , gold-digger-gold-digger-fred-perry-gina-diggers-ch.jpg )
73784

Your argument; thus, I refute it.
>>
No. 73787 ID: beeca1

>>73784
I'm not sure how that refutes my argument at all. A crappy faux manga doesn't prove anything.
>>
No. 73788 ID: cf49fc
File 137425705746.jpg - (15.79KB , 600x375 , outback-hat-full.jpg )
73788

>>73787
Get yourself an Outback hat, cad. Real men wear them. Or at least every Australian man.
>>
No. 73790 ID: c23ab0
File 137425778763.png - (96.40KB , 225x186 , spongebob_getout-(n1294413592174).png )
73790

>>73780

> Trilby
>>
No. 73791 ID: beeca1

>>73788
Real men? Australian men? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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No. 73792 ID: beeca1

>>73790
>implying I made the image

I know it's the wrong style of hat, but it's quite similar. My point is that such hats look idiotic 99% of the time.
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No. 73798 ID: cf49fc

>>73791
Pantailamon, stop derailing this thread with your ridiculous hat fetish and mocking the nations of others, and sod off.
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No. 73800 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73798
I'm actually arguing against hats, but nice try. As long as we're being jerk-offs about everything, my name is spelled P-a-n-t-a-l-a-i-m-o-n, not P-a-n-t-a-i-l-a-m-o-n.
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No. 73801 ID: c23ab0

>>73792

Amazingly enough, Pantsmon, you can draw the exact boundary between when one of "those hats" looks idiotic or not. That boundary is the Trilby. It makes you look like a conehead.

Find me a hipster wearing a fedora, not a trilby, and I'll find you one well dressed hipster.
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No. 73802 ID: cee89f

>>73779
Eh, if you really want the whip, we'll file that away for when we found Kairosa's cults. That way the sexual fetishism will fly under the raI MEAN INDIANA JONES REFERENCE will... uh... work even better?

"The word according to the Scavenger of Ages: 'My worshippers shalt raid tombs and steal relics whilst donning fedoras and keeping at least one whip on their person at all times!'"

>>73780
.... oh thank god, it's not a real magazine

>>73792
In the real world, sure.

I have seen stetsons look badass, sexy, cute, dangerous, and a host of other things in fiction.

I'm from Texas, so I might be biased but in my mind, stetsons rule.

>>73784
Eh. The catgirl ain't THAT sexy.
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No. 73803 ID: 2fc3e9
File 137428112069.jpg - (19.38KB , 232x300 , $(KGrHqF,!jcE6EJdB0WkBOjL2PvbpQ~~60_35.jpg )
73803

>>73801
As far as I can tell, a trilby is a fedora with a shorter brim. To this end, my dear Anonymoose, I have a hipster wearing a fedora with the largest brim I could find.

Is this a fedora yet?
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No. 73805 ID: f5356d

>>73802
Oh, the whip is for practical and coolness reasons only, NO REALLY HONESTLY I ASSURE YOU. I mean, it IS our highest-ranking weapons skill, after all.

Besides, I figure a whip can be a good artifact-crafting challenge, using relatively little material compared to a daiklave or something, while having a variety of non-combat uses. No, not THOSE uses - I mean, like assisting climbing, or being animated so we can move it like an extension of ourselves, maybe even transfer touch-based Titanic Abilities at a distance.

And hey, if we're going to quest for another Titan fragment somewhere down the line, what are the odds it's NOT hidden in some forgotten temple ruin with surprisingly well-functioning traps?

So what I'm saying is, if we're in a forgotten temple looking for ancient artifacts, while carrying a whip... well, the fedora is almost a given, isn't it?

(Of course, by that point, we'll probably have upgraded ourselves into floating intangibly through walls, so Indiana Jones comparisons will be moot. But STILL.)
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No. 73840 ID: 5d121c

could we craft an artifact whip in such a way that it would use dwarf fortress logic?
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No. 73841 ID: cee89f

>>73805
>Oh, the whip is for practical and coolness reasons only, NO REALLY HONESTLY I ASSURE YOU. I mean, it IS our highest-ranking weapons skill, after all.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. *sly smirk*

>Besides, I figure a whip can be a good artifact-crafting challenge, using relatively little material compared to a daiklave or something, while having a variety of non-combat uses. No, not THOSE uses - I mean, like assisting climbing, or being animated so we can move it like an extension of ourselves, maybe even transfer touch-based Titanic Abilities at a distance.

Isn't one of the reasons that Daiklaves exist that nothing smaller is an actual threat to the kinds of things exalted and titans will have to fight?

Having said that, creating a whip for climbing, using it as an extra limb and that other stuff is awesome and we should make that. Also, we need a stetson to go with it. A magic stetson. With magic!

>And hey, if we're going to quest for another Titan fragment somewhere down the line, what are the odds it's NOT hidden in some forgotten temple ruin with surprisingly well-functioning traps?

I think it's more likely it'll be in the process of being used in some world-shattering conspiracy involving a perverse ritual of the damned that will take us an entire chapter to unravel.

... but yeah, the likelihood of that is probably high.

>>73840
never played, explain please?
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No. 73842 ID: e3aff6

>>73840
For those who have not dorfed, in Dwarf Fortress there is a damage physics miscalculation in which whips are treated as having the supersonic velocity and tiny contact area of the whip's tip while also hitting with the mass of the entire whip as if it was a hammer (as opposed to the tiny portion of the mass behind the impact of a real whip).
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No. 73848 ID: cf6367

Anyone else got suggestions for relatively light but still helpful artifacts we could craft?
Since we have basically infinite time on our hands, then as long as we have the tools, the materials and the knowledge, we can churn out the stuff like nobody's business.
(Something to keep in mind in the future, should we need large sums of money.)

...Thing is, I don't know much about artifacts in Exalted, so I don't have the background to make informed suggestions.

I was also thinking about a staff (for our stickbashing skill). And since iirc Wordblood needs to borrow one of our eyes for his World-reading Ability, why not make a new "eye" for him to see through, and stick it on top of a staff as a "decoration"?

Finally, I was wondering: is it possibly to maybe craft some kind of chain loop to use as the basis for a portal boundary? Or a Kairosa-cape? I'm guessing it'll take a lot of time and Moon Power to transport things to our Inner World if we have to do it one item at a time. If we can somehow open a portal, though, we can transport a lot of things for a fixed cost.
(Making an artifact for the purpose seems like it could work; the alternative is to coax an upgrade from the Hero Soul, which would be time-consuming - or rather risky.)
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No. 73857 ID: cee89f

>>73848
Oooooh, i like this artifact angle =D

>Eye-staff

I guess, but we'd definitely have to get Wordblood's word on this (heh heh) before we could even attempt it. And couldn't we just put that on a necklace, if we wanted to? Putting it on a staff would risk damaging it whenever we tried to use the staff as a weapon.

Could we make a staff that allows us to 'store' moon abilities/titan's works/spells for later use? Save us some moon power... probably not, given how soul fire and essence seem to work, but worth looking into, at least.

>Kairosa-cloak
I'm not sure how we could get the starfield or the omnomnom thing to work, since Saulanna has an actual body in the way. Also, we don't want to draw attention to ourselves yet.

How about we get Saulanna a whip, a staff and some sort of ranged weapon for her standard configuration? She's probably going to mostly use moon abilities, Titan Works and Sorcery but it helps to be prepared, and we could build abilities around her weapons.

Heck, we might just be able to grab a moon ability to give our whip insane range (we already have something similar with our moon claws) and call it a day =3

Could we enchant our eventual stetson/really cool hat to help us resist mind-altering effects, like Peregrin's compulsion?
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No. 73867 ID: 5d121c

>>73841
dwarf fortress uses ridiculously complicated weapon damage and armor rules but it isnt finished yet so whips, with their incredibly high speed and incredibly small contact areas, are basically like lightsabers or something

even with the very best helmet possible a low quality metal whip will punch through the helmet, the skin, the fat, the muscle, the skull and destroy the brain if it hits the head (the game simulates and explains all of those steps, which is one of the reasons i like it)

dwarf fortress logic includes things like killing a massive and almost invulnerable bronze golem by knocking its head off by throwing a tiny smurf expy at it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=e764d24520aa536b74215d45094fea90&topic=56935.0)
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No. 73868 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73867
Fluffy wamblers are not smurf expies, you heretic.
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No. 73874 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73873
There are thousands of small humanoid races known for being dim and living in forests. Fairies, gnomes, and a lot of mythological "little folk" that the Smurfs were themselves based off of.
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No. 73875 ID: 5d121c

>>73868
yes they are, neener neener

>A fluffy, pudge-filled being, known for its warm heart and stumble bumblings. Fluffy wamblers are small humanoids that can be found the world over in good regions. They are known and beloved for their warm hearts, gentle natures, and stumble bumblings. Despite their status as agricultural pests, it's rare to find a being that actually finds them offensive. They are widely held to be 'adorable,' and many dwarves consider them to be a delicacy.

>Fluffy wamblers are about 1/3 smaller than a domestic cat. They are roughly humanoid in shape, with singular arms and legs devoid of toes, claws, or other extremities. They possess two black eyes and a nose, but lack any other distinguishing features, and their entire bodies are covered in white fur known as 'fluff.' Their uniformity makes it difficult to tell two different wamblers apart.
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No. 73876 ID: 5d121c

>>73874
well, sure, but the whole thing is very close no matter how you spin it

at least people dont call them bunnies that much anymore
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No. 73895 ID: 4798b8

1) Luna knows Saulanna Ricanya Rockblossom has a Titan fragment stuck in her, and to give her Moon Hero a chance of staying sane and in control through the process, she gave her a bunch of fourth wall breaking moon fae (us) as a horde of first truly minor Deva advisers that actually want her to succeed.

2) Since we can see her here: (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0269.html) which is decades in the past, she'll eventually learn time travel.
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No. 73897 ID: cee89f

>>73895
She's already lost those clothes and Kairosa has told us that time travel is no longer possible now that Haht'hek isn't around.

...Also, I'm pretty sure that cameo occurred long before we made Kairosa.
>>
No. 73899 ID: 4798b8

>>73897
Fair point... Still we could be the first first circle deva in this particular titan.
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No. 73994 ID: 640d57

So I was pondering elements for future Deva:
Phlogiston
Duality
Song
Holy
>>
No. 74004 ID: cee89f

>>73994
>Phlogiston

...What?

>Duality
Maybe.

>Holy
Assuming I understand how the term works in Creation, that would step on the toes of /everything that obeys the laws of heaven/ at the same time and make us an enemy of everything that doesn't. So...

>Song
Sounds like a noble deva. We could put that under Wordblood. Or maybe under an art lord.

Can we have an Art Deva of War so that we can Songfight? =O
>>
No. 74010 ID: 01c571

>>73994
What specifically appeals to you about these elements Aranni? At the moment I can see appeal towards Saulanna's history themes in Duality and I can definitely see Song's place as a noble soul for Wordblood if we find ourselves getting into power words in a big way (though I'm not sure that's our call) but beyond that the ideas are mostly blank slates to me.

And on the note of Devas, I've seen an idle thought or two of growing the curse Deva into an element of Justice but what about taking it and raising it to become someone with purpose of Justice (Defined as encompassing things from the concept of "restore to the victim what was lost and take from the victor what was gained" to "Let the punishment be no greater or lesser than the crime" backed by underlying themes of "Make the world as it should be")

It doesn't seem like it would be very far of a stretch given that the curse, to my knowledge is a thing of Retribution or Vengeance (Or whichever word best fits "Hurt he who hurt me" with that same underlying "Make the world as it should be") via transforming people to be more representative of their own worst aspects. It wouldn't be far cry to start developing powers that bespeak a purpose of both Vengeance and Justice, and then later move towards usages and powers that are more purely Justice.

For example, a power that forces someone's imagination to produce vivid hallucinations of themselves in the position of the people they've hurt would fit well with both the purpose of vengeance (You're inflicting pain) and a small part of Justice (in that going through what the victim experienced is a rather literal interpretation of a punishment that is exactly equal to the crime) as well as holding a limit break-esque nature that the curse deva might resonate well with. With controlled use and careful expansion it could well serve a "just" purpose. (And even if this is just the first viable example that came to me, it does have room for both...but this post is long enough as is.)
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No. 74016 ID: dd1be0

>>74004
Phlogiston is a substance that was once part of physics theory, a permeating gas that *was* heat... mostly I was thinking about 'physical elements' rather then concepts and this seemed to be the most viable.

If the Red Sun is the dragon's wife, then Ignis Divine is dead and the Empress has been promoted into his place. Holy no longer exists as a global concept, but as the personal conviction of the few Sun Heroes with enough Soul Power to sustain a personal holy spark.

I was thinking Song as a Binding Soul, but a War Soul of Art sounds very boss.

>>74010
I mostly like them as they're different directions we can grow into. Rather then just build on the basis of what we have the, grow toward a new ideal.

I'm worried about the 'curse-deva'. It is from the dying essence of other titans and as such I fear if we don't handle it wisely me might build our own robo-cancer. Twisting the Vengeance to Justice thought... that's tricky. The Curse, in addition to it's effect on the Lunar Exaltation/Deva's ability to adapt/change is also tendency to over emote and have breakdowns... I'm not sure I want that as a judge.
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No. 74018 ID: cee89f

>>74016
>UCS is dead
....

The Red Sun is the sun in the underworld and Wordblood told us picking light would step on his toes. No he's not -_-

>Phlogiston is a substance that was once part of physics theory, a permeating gas that *was* heat... mostly I was thinking about 'physical elements' rather then concepts and this seemed to be the most viable.

Wordblood has said that if it doesn't already exist, it's pointless to make since Saulanna is currently too weak to really build the element up into something useful. So at the moment, we have to pick things that already exist.

>>74010
Maybe, but this is a dangerous game you're proposing we play. You're basically saying we do to the great curse what it does to Exalted (slowly change it's personality through slight changes in behavior and disposition over time) which is going to be hard enough given what it is, but even moreso since Saulanna and Kairosa seem to currently be unaware of it.
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No. 74021 ID: 68501c

>>74018
Indeed you're right, appologies, I miss remembered this (>>420915 >>420916) infodump...

Honestly creating a Deva, when Ms. Rockblossm and Miss Age-Scavenger know of the curse deva, to oppose the curse Deva, then later, if not immediately have Kairosa undo the order of things so we first created a Binding Deva of Duality, and made the Curse-Deva and the Anti-Curse Deva their first Noble Souls might function as a way to reign it in.

But that plan would probably require a seeing Deva able to show the pair the Curse Deva.
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No. 74024 ID: 01c571

>>74016
>>74018
>Maybe, but this is a dangerous game you're proposing we play.

I'm aware it's dangerous, but at the same time, all other options I can think of would seem either worse or unavailable, except in the long term:

1:A Crafting Deva with an element of Rebirth or Transformation might work but would likely not be able to even see it, and even then would risk alienating Wordblood.

2:Gaia, Autocthon, the Yozi's, and the Dragon's Shadow might well be able to interact with it but they either have high odds of either being difficult to reach or are the Dragon's Shadow who we know has swayed both Peregrin and Akatrina to his side (or at least neutrality) and I do not want to face the magnitude of social combat that implies so soon.

3:A lost titan fragment might well give us a new lordly soul unaffected by the curse but that suffers from having unknown usefulness, a quite significant wait, and the loss of an opportunity to create an allied nascent titan (Which is one reason among many why I'm interested in a rebirth/transformation crafting Deva... but that's another post).

Lastly, we know it grows when we consume souls with less than perfect efficiency so there are the options to either avoid eating to curtail it's growth or eat as much as possible to birth it into devahood quickly. I'm fairly certain the latter nets us a deva born of the Curse altered as little as possible, a creature born of vengeance with a hatred of gods, exalts, and possibly ordinary humans as well, and in the worst case one with the Will and Drive to contend for the Royal position given that it is it's nature to alter Exalts towards it's own ends. In any event, it is a creature I trust far less than even if we were to expand it's role to Justice and fail.

The former path meanwhile might allow us time to reach the first three options, and I'm quite favorable to it for other reasons, but I'm not sure we could resist the temptations of pragmatism with a stressful environment and Wordblood and Kairosa acting as enablers. Even then, we have the problem that it has gained much more power than a normal manifestation of the Great Curse already and may not be enough of a Deva to have our own best interests in mind. Deliberately creating a path for it to follow towards greater influence, one where we both know exactly how our choices can be used for and against us and one which gives it empathy for beings other than it's slain creators allows us to at least control the nature of where and how we are affected and even make, carefully plotted, gains on top of it.

That said, once again you're right that it is dangerous which is why I'd much prefer to sketch out a possible evolutionary path, or several and discern the risks therein before taking it.
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No. 74033 ID: 68501c

>>74024
You make a fair point, we must plan a head and think this out... What do you think of the plan presented here: >>74021
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No. 74065 ID: 5d121c

>>74018
>>74004
IIRC it was more like putting our weight on the side of the incarnae, not "stepping on their toes"

>>73994
"holy" just means "UCS approved" in the most bureaucratic way possible, it doesnt actually exist past that

so this really might be stepping on toes, but more likely it just wouldnt work

>>74024
a crafting deva at all seems like a bad idea because of the connection we have to the wilderness and the aversion we have to civilization

a growing or healing deva would be more appropriate and close to the concept
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No. 74070 ID: fe31b8

>>74021

It would probably be hard to make any sort of opposing deva for the curse deva until we know what its exact Purpose and Element are.
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No. 74074 ID: ecd0ab

>>74065
>a crafting deva at all seems like a bad idea because of the connection we have to the wilderness and the aversion we have to civilization

We aren't Gaia. And we can choose to take a different direction than just one based entirely on Lunar stuff. We already have, really, since Wordblood's influence is pretty much going to make us not very much like Gaia or Luna all on its own. Curse deva is pretty Lunar, though, I suppose.

Really we need a Deva who just does something that helps establish what sort of Titan we want to be. Too bad we don't seem to know what that is!
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No. 74077 ID: cee89f

>>74074
Or to be more precise, we hardly ever discuss it, and when we do nobody can agree :p

How about a titan of understanding/forgiveness/healing? Kairosa and Wordblood are both capable of a great deal of empathy for others (Kairosa because she can read someone's entire history just by tasting them, Wordblood because... he's wordblood) even if they feel little sympathy for them. And Rebirth has a (somewhat) strong backing as one our next devas.

>>74065
... heh heh. i went to look this up, and it turns out it's both.
>"Let's see... Light would put your weight on the toes of Sol, Luna, the Maidens of Fate...

>Holy
Sure, it just means 'UCS approved' but it's also a concept ingrained in the mind and being of all things. We'd essentially be making Holy an official 'thing' on the same level of Time and Communication.

So... UCS might be pissed, or he might be grateful that it became a physical thing.

We'll have to get word on Holy - it's a lot more complicated than I think we gave it credit for.

>>74070
Also, Saulanna probably needs to learn it exists.

On Devas: Wordblood recommended Rebirth be put to a healing purpose. Just sayin'.
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No. 74085 ID: 5d121c

>>74074
We can, but we don't need to. There is no real gain over some other choices, only loss.

We are establishing it through all of our Devas. We'll see what it turns out as.

>>74077
I read that weight on the toes as a positive thing, though. Better than putting that weight on the toes of some other things out there, anyway.

>holy

It's not an ingrained concept in the exalted verse as far as I know. It doesn't translate to this setting. If something is holy it just means it's effective against UCS's enemies. I don't see how we could take that concept and make a Deva out of it. The UCS is already the 'physical' manifestation of this concept. Such a deva would either completely suck up to him or it would try to usurp him. Probably both.
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No. 74093 ID: e2cbdd

If we create a new Deva with a similar or outright opposing element to Greenie, they would probably end up merging whether we want to or not, inexorably drawn to each other.
At least we'd have something we can see and communicate with (probably.) ...but depending on whether it happens in the process of creation or at a later date, it could be a kinda cruel thing to do to a newly created Deva :/
Note that if we choose a purpose for the new Deva, we might end up with the average of that and Greenie's purpose, weighted towards the side with the most TW.

Or we could invest into the Bottle Emotions ability and upgrades to that, trying to stabilize Greenie by injecting TW from that direction. If raising SF gives bonus abilities, purchasing abilities might give bonus SF... Also, by upgrading the Ability in unexpectedly benevolent directions, we might affect the temperament of the Deva.

How loyal will Greenie be, by the way? Usually, new Devas is created directly from the Ruling Deva's SF, and they gain a bond from that. But Greenie has been growing from the Curse, and the table-scrap TW from consuming pretty nasty souls...

Once we gain more Soul Force, say when Saulanna reaches SF 5, or we gain Self-Awareness, I don't think Greenie can hide anymore, and then we can spend TW on it directly. (I favor ripping off a bit of our soul and directly fusing it with Greenie, to fix potential loyalty issues.)
Maybe Wordblood can use World Reading on Greenie to see how much more SF it would take to see it? (Though maybe he should get World reading level 3, first?)
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No. 74094 ID: 01c571

>>74033
Not sure I understood it, I far as I can tell, you're saying we should create a seeing Deva to reveal the curse, followed by a Deva to either bind it or act as a counterweight, and finally influence it's selection of noble souls to influence it's nature?

My thoughts:
We'd need to verify our ability to influence noble deva decisions (At a guess it's going to be more limited than that of Lords based on Wordblood already having plans of his own.)

A seeing deva with the proper element might be a very good idea and fit well with not only that plan but also any number of others involving the curse. Only caveat is weighing it against other possible uses.

A binding or counterbalancing deva also runs into the same caveat as the seeing deva with the additional worry of two devas going to war and thoughts of how Wordblood and Kairosa would feel about it.

>>74070
>It would probably be hard to make any sort of opposing deva for the curse deva until we know what its exact Purpose and Element are.

That shouldn't be too complicated. If the purpose and element of a Deva determine what it does then by the words and, especially, actions of a Deva we may also infer it's nature. Given what it's nature and what Kairosa said under it's influence a purpose of Vengeance through [manipulation of the mind] is highly probable.

>>74077
>On Devas: Wordblood recommended Rebirth be put to a healing purpose. Just sayin'.

Yup... but as counterpoint I see us with our shadowland/nation full of ghosts, and the Ebon dragon planning something with death, not to mention our nascent archaeologist themes and think we could use a Rebirth/Transformation element with a more versatile role than Healing. For example, how many ghosts do you think would welcome the ability to move around anywhere and function as if underworld or Shadowlands? Or to be altered for a capacity to grow and attain heroic, or even exalted, levels of competence? What could we do with whole kingdoms of the dead both grateful and subservient to us?

>How about a titan of understanding/forgiveness/healing?

That's sort of in line with why I want a Justice Deva, I view it as something with a kinship to all those elements and as something that would help stabilize Saulanna and inject a bit of human perspective into her internal world. I'd (strongly) prefer manipulating the Great Curse to become it (For reasons of simultaneously removing a destabilizing element and creating a stabilizing one) and will argue for it but at the end of the day that's a personal preference.
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No. 74095 ID: e2cbdd

Speaking of Devas, I was considering a new Purpose I came up with: Self-Regulation.

Regulating Soul of Flow/Life/Plants/Beauty/Mercy/Restraint
This soul would maintain homeostasis and increase our general efficiency. It would cast off attempts at manipulating us, strive to see that Saulanna doesn't go into a rage or nomming frenzy, that no Lordly Deva becomes too dominant, that our Common Devas don't harrass human inhabitants, that our Inner World is functioning smoothly, and that there are no spies or assassins hiding there. Needs a pretty passive element, so that it doesn't get any ideas, especially since this will essentially be our police force / immune system / bureaucracy - we don't want it to get oppressive.
...Hey, isn't Adorjan basically missing one of these? Maybe we'll find that fragment...

This is currently at the bottom of my "potential Devas" list - it's nothing we really need at the moment - but I thought it was a kinda neat concept anyway.
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No. 74101 ID: 9f7acd

>>74070
>It would probably be hard to make any sort of opposing deva for the curse deva until we know what its exact Purpose and Element are.
And in any case I don't think making an opposing deva is the solution that'll work. I think we should eventually grow it until it has an opposing noble deva, then uplift it to a lord above Green.

If that is a thing that works.
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No. 74105 ID: 1bc72d

>>74094
Kind of. Once 'all three of us' know it's there, we create a Deva that balances it, then have Kairosa use time shenanigans to have first created a Binding Soul of Duality and made the curse and anit-curse Devas Duality's noble souls, or at least the first noble souls.
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No. 74110 ID: cee89f

>>74095
Kairosa already manages our magical energy.

>>74105
Kairosa can't mess with the past.
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No. 74114 ID: 1bc72d

>>74110
Kairosa said she could mess with the past as long as it happened after she was created... the question is when did this 'deva' awaken. When we drew second breathe or when Kairosa tasted the Exaltation?
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No. 74125 ID: 01c571

>>74093
>Or we could invest into the Bottle Emotions ability and upgrades to that, trying to stabilize Greenie by injecting TW from that direction. If raising SF gives bonus abilities, purchasing abilities might give bonus SF... Also, by upgrading the Ability in unexpectedly benevolent directions, we might affect the temperament of the Deva.

I'm with this... but instead of Emotion Bottling why not see if we can find new abilities that fit better? For example, earlier I mentioned a limit break-esque ability --- Let's call it "A Dose of Perspective" --- that inflicted a target with hallucinations of the harm they've caused others; it's not a long stretch to manipulate that into the good they've done instead/as well, or add Kairosa's history tasting abilities to it to make the hallucinations accurate.

Still, from the feel of it, it does risk the ability being too close to Wordblood and thus too being his ability rather than being snatched up by the Curse.

>How loyal will Greenie be, by the way?

Probably between as loyal as Wordblood and as loyal as a family member who does legitimately want the best for you but is also a cop or soldier with the extra duties and loyalties thereof.

>>74114
I'd guess it would have awakened during the consumption of the the first three souls we ate.
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No. 74144 ID: cee89f

>>74114
No, she can't un-eat souls that were eaten before she came into existence. She said that the past couldn't be messed with since Haht'hek wasn't around.
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No. 74145 ID: a3bc9f

>>74144
Look, Greenie didn't show up until she nibbled the Exaltation... it's possible that's that when he awakened/formed/coalesced, which means if she undoes waking him up (Something that's fully internal to the growing world-body) when we're prepared to deal with him...
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No. 74147 ID: cee89f

>>74145
Again. She cannot. Mess. With. The past. She has told us this. Directly.

>"Actually messing with the past can't be done now Haht'hek's not around!"

And indirectly she has said that she can only change so much through rewinds. At best, she would be able to partially 'rewind' Greenie's growth like she does with our TW.

That's assuming you're right and it formed because Kairosa decided to taste the Hero's soul, and NOT because of what Wordblood posits here:
>>68749

Also, she wouldn't get rid of greenie even if she could. See here:
>>68833
So no, we can't get rid of Greenie that easy. Can we go back to discussing artifacts or something?
>>
No. 74151 ID: a3bc9f

>>74147
Well an artifact quarterstaff, warhammer or Tetsubo might be nice, since we're masters of clubbing. Armor as long as it's moonsilver. And maybe a bow or crossbow, in case we need to attack at range.
>>
No. 74153 ID: 5d121c

>>74151
I don't know, plain old weapons seem really small time considering what we are.

Why not create artifacts that increase the range or power of our devas, or increase TW generation or lower TW expenditure, or maybe an artifact that helps us harmonize deva powers and maybe even help out with greeny on the side.

Typical artifacts from anything in exalted are geared around exalts making them and using them, but we aren't limited in that way. We can use TW to make them, we can have several devas with very exotic abilities make them, and once the artifact is done we also have many more ways than an exalt to power and use them.
>>
No. 74158 ID: e2cbdd

>>74153
A circlet/headband with See Invisible + Self-Awareness + Mental Resistance seems like it would cover what we need. I wonder what the difference would be, wearing it as Saulanna the Titan Vs. as Saulanna the Deva...

Since a Seeing Deva is probably some ways off, it would be neat to have some sort of long-range detector array, to detect heroes coming in. Also, if we can detect unclaimed Places of Power, a collection of Hearthstones seems like the kind of jewelry Kairosa would appreciate...
>>
No. 74159 ID: 5d121c

>>74158
or maybe the stuff from our previous exaltations that was mentioned by kairosa i think

we could pretty much cover all of our regular artifact needs with that
>>
No. 74160 ID: 5d121c

>>74147
>She cannot. Mess. With. The past.

she said she could some time in the future when shes more powerful

which basically means she could do it right now by contacting her future self

which would probably barely work if at all, and end catastrophically

i wish we wont ever do anything like this, i hate time travel
>>
No. 74163 ID: b6aafa

>>74153
1) Finding artifacts that were made for a Moon Hero will be a lot easier then one made for a young Titan.
2) While it's true we may eventually get exotic ways to make artifacts, currently none of our devas, save maybe Rockblossem is suited for it, and she'd have to make it the regular way.
>>
No. 74164 ID: b6aafa

>>74158
Getting Kairosa or the main body a hearthstone might generate a little extra titans will because we'll have more motes to dedicate to the cause... Course getting out of the shadowland where we can respire better might do the same.
>>
No. 74167 ID: cee89f

>>74160
With "ten titanic buttloads" of power. Which we will not have in time to do anything to Greenie.

Also, I now ship Kairosa with her future self. thanks a lot :P

>>74159
Unless none of the competencies we have relate to whatever artifacts we find. Or if we want to have something that specifically uses our titan abilities.

>>74158
We have a circlet we could put those enchantments on, actually - good thinkin'.

>>74153
...And we can't do any of that with a quarterstaff, whip, circlet or stetson because?

Heck, right now all of our characters are still pretty weak as far as titans, exalted and magical creatures go. Even ordinary artifacts aren't really 'beneath us' right now, especially since we're still trying to be as inconspicuous as a Hero can be.
>>
No. 74168 ID: 5d121c

>>74163
Why would we want to create artifacts for a moon hero?

I think all of our Devas are suited to it with a bit of practice/TW to help them learn.

We either have the artifact created inside our inner world or let any of the Devas work through our body, either works just fine.

>>74167
>Unless none of the competencies we have relate to whatever artifacts we find.

I'm sure there's tons of useful stuff to be found. Narrative causality demands it, and even disregarding that that not all artifacts even require any kind of competency. An artifact can be other things than a stick to hit or poke someone with.

>Or if we want to have something that specifically uses our titan abilities.

We would likely have to create something ourselves for this. Which seems fine to me... Except for the fact that I don't see a reason why we couldn't just get abilities for our Devas that do the same thing.

Sure, I guess we could use something like a daiklave or an armor to help us out. But then we are more about sneaking and talking than outright fighting. We really shouldn't be putting ourself in a situation that we can't talk or raccoonform out of.
>>
No. 74169 ID: cee89f

>Why would we want to create artifacts for a moon hero?

... Because we're a moon hero? *confusedface*

>I'm sure there's tons of useful stuff to be found. Narrative causality demands it, and even disregarding that that not all artifacts even require any kind of competency. An artifact can be other things than a stick to hit or poke someone with.

Narrative causality also demands that it be crap until we prove ourselves worthy in some convoluted scenario that no one expects us to live through.

>Except for the fact that I don't see a reason why we couldn't just get abilities for our Devas that do the same thing.

Bo-ring! :I

Seriously though: we can use items to overcome weaknesses that the abilities have on their own. Someone suggested earlier that we make a staff with an eye wordblood can use for world-reading, for instance.
>>
No. 74170 ID: b3740b

>Except for the fact that I don't see a reason why we couldn't just get abilities for our Devas that do the same thing.
The reasons for making artifacts are threefold:
*With artifacts, we can get abilities not within our themes as a Titan.
*If Peregrin has the requisite materials, we can make said artifacts with little or no TW expenditure.
*Crafting our first artifact is bound to be an accomplishment worthy of XP or the equivalent.
>>
No. 74255 ID: 5d121c

>>74169
>... Because we're a moon hero? *confusedface*

We are a lot more than just a moon hero.

>>74170
They can also get lost or broken and they typically require upkeep.
>>
No. 74256 ID: a23afd

>>74255
We can still use artifacts meant for moon heroes.
>>
No. 74259 ID: 6c6e6f

>Why would we want to create artifacts for a moon hero?
Wielding an artifact specifically meant for Titans might make us a tad conspicuous, but it still sounds like a good idea to wield *something*.
Also, I figure we need a bit of practice before starting on the heavy-duty stuff.

Mind you, nothing's stopping us from going to a major city later on and simply BUYING some useful artifacts/hearthstones.
>>
No. 74274 ID: 5d121c

>>74256
But why limit ourselves if we're creating a new artifact?

>>74259
I don't think it would be conspicuous unless it screamed titanhood on purpose or something unless someone did a thorough magical examination. They can be incredibly varied and people would just chalk it up to sorcery of some kind or something.

Also, there's no rule saying lunar artifacts would be easier to create.
>>
No. 74278 ID: cee89f

>>74255
We're more than just a human, that doesn't mean we stop wearing clothes, or speaking, or feeling empathy.

>They can also get lost or broken and they typically require upkeep.

And life has a 100% chance to break beyond repair, even with constant maintenance. Just because something stops doesn't mean it isn't useful/fun while it's around.

Also, we have a Time deva. Upkeep won't be too much of a problem, and we could whip up another in an instant if we have the materials.

>>74274
>But why limit ourselves if we're creating a new artifact?

Isn't that exactly what you're doing by saying we shouldn't make a moon hero artifact? =/

>Also, there's no rule saying lunar artifacts would be easier to create.

No but it's heavily implied that it would be since we're both a titan and a Lunar. (actually, ONLY because we're both a titan and a Lunar)

>>74259
>Mind you, nothing's stopping us from going to a major city later on and simply BUYING some useful artifacts/hearthstones.

But that's boring! D=
>>
No. 74280 ID: d78743

Just outright buying artifacts in Exalted is... well, if you think it's a reliable way to gain anything but trinkets(which will be ridiculously expensive) I'm gonna say you're not very familiar with the setting.

Anyway, creating/having unique Artifacts also gives us a potential way to explain our ability to do Titan things if we get caught. I also think creating things would be good for Saulanna's early development, because as of yet she's been fighting and trying to deceive primarily.
>>
No. 74303 ID: af0077

>>74278
We have a Feeding Time Deva... one of her sub souls may become a bitching crafter, but she's more likely to entropy/corrode things then build them up.
>>
No. 74314 ID: cee89f

>>74303
1) By that logic the stones she has would be forever rotting.

2) Er, I actually meant that Saulanna could bring the materials required for future upkeep into her inner world, then deal with their upkeep in her own head instantly from an outside perspective. So aside from attaining materials for them which we can probably remedy eventually (assuming we /can't/ get Kairosa's help in slowing their decay - nice idea, btw), upkeep won't ever really be a problem for Saulanna.
>>
No. 74328 ID: 5d121c

>>74278
>Isn't that exactly what you're doing by saying we shouldn't make a moon hero artifact? =/

No, because a moon hero artifact is a subsection of all the types of artifacts we could make. We don't need to limit ourselves to that. It seems reasonable to assume that using more of our resources would make an artifact easier to create and better at its intended purpose than using less of our resources.

I'll translate it into hypothetical precious metals of our devas:

A purely moonsilver artifact has no reason to be better at anything than an artifact that's made out of moonsilver and wordmetal or moonsilver and timemetal (purple jade?) at the same time.
>>
No. 74329 ID: 5d121c

>>74328
Not that I want to imply an artifact would have to be made out of those things, a collaborative one could easily be something else that holds the essence of our devas or the moon.

Like something like a glass sphere inscribed with words by WB and infused with moonlight or something. I don't know what such a thing could be used for, maybe the malleability of language or something. But it's just an example.
>>
No. 74331 ID: de8d90

>>74328
It's remotely possible that Peregrin has some Moonsilver squirreled away - and he's very likely to have at least SOME magical materials on hand. Exotic materials connected to US, though, would probable have to be generated at a cost in TW.
We should ask Peregrin what's available, and see whether we can whip up something helpful with it before our next social engagement.
For the longer term, though, we can take our time to find/generate the most suitable materials possible.
>>
No. 74339 ID: 5d121c

>>74331
as i said, i was using magical material to provide an example of what i meant, i wasnt trying to say we needed to make an artifact out of them

the essence type content, or maybe the concepts that would power the thing, are what's important
>>
No. 74798 ID: 1d9028

Another long-term topic:

What do you guys think of getting ourselves some worshipers in the future?

It could be a cool way to gain new powers, broaden our themes a bit, and probably get TW if we gain enough worship - I seem to recall that prayers are made out of Aether, so they are eminently nommable.
(Do our worshipers need to be alive, do you think, or can ghosts pray properly?)

Once we get a few more Devas, we could get worshiped as an entire pantheon, each Deva posing as a separate deity.
Maybe we could even be several pantheons - having different names and attributes in different geographic areas. This would broaden our powers even further, and maybe keep us under the radar longer.

Here's my suggestion for a self-help-themed pantheon:
Saulanna: Strength of Will, overcoming adversity and peer pressure. Pray to for the strength to go on.
Wordblood: Training/schooling. Pray to for better test scores or to help you properly learn a trade skill.
Kairosa: Introspection/analysis, learning lessons from the past, both your own mistakes and the deeds of others.
Hero Soul: Adapting to a new situation, gaining power, fitting into a context, gaining friends.
Greenie: Opportunity/luck - pray to for getting a break, a sign, or the first step on the journey to success.
(I figure giving Greenie consistently helpful roles might affect his personality positively, down the line...)

Also, if we get inhabitants in our Inner World, they could worship our Devas for their roles in maintaining our inner landscape, like beseeching Wordblood for nice weather.

The main advantage of getting roles close to the themes of our Devas would be getting powers that harmonize with what we already do; Kairosa IS pretty suited to looking through someone's past already, and getting her more powers on that theme would be helpful for us.
We have great advantages over other Heroes in this arena - unlike most of them, WE can actually hear and respond to prayers...

What do you guys think?
>>
No. 74821 ID: 9f7acd

>>74798
Setting ourselves up as a pantheon is an interesting idea, maybe for mid-game shenanigans. I doubt prayer would mean much to our power levels though and I give even less odds in it altering our devas natures.
>>
No. 74822 ID: cee89f

>>74821
Sure, it won't matter if we have one or two families praying to us, but if we have entire cities, entire /nations/ praying to us? Hell, as I recall, prayer was originally the whole point of mortals.
>>
No. 74823 ID: 2fc3e9

>>74822
It was.
>>
No. 74827 ID: bf54a8

also it would be one of the ways to gain energy from NOT creation. suck some mortals into our inner world once it's big enough and they can pray from the inside. would be a not that bad a place to live, compared to like, autobot.
>>
No. 74829 ID: cee89f

>>74827
oooooh, and we could make our own wheel of reincarnation! Kairosa takes souls when they die, unmakes them and gets TW, then makes a new soul that goes into a new kid! With prayer, we'd get constant new TW from each person we made like that to make new souls and improve our power!

And we'd turn that power to helping Creation, as a Lunar should, and...

... getting ahead of myself.
>>
No. 74830 ID: c23ab0

>>74829

And have all the adorable raccoon babies!!
>>
No. 74831 ID: cee89f

>>74830
RACCOON BABIES UNTIL THE END OF TIME KAIROSA EATS US!!! =D

... wait, could we do that? Pull enough humans in here that the blood doesn't grow thin, then stop time and build up power over centuries worth of time in moments? I mean we won't be able to get Kairosa's passive will, but would we still get power from their prayers?
>>
No. 74832 ID: cf49fc

>>74831
Kairosa can't eat us if we just create a Deva of Creation or Renewal. Then she'll be counterbalanced.
>>
No. 74834 ID: a23afd

>>74832
She will eat us anyway, when we die. She is The Eater of Time, and thus very, very patient.
>>
No. 74835 ID: 1d9028

>>74821
Well, being a god grants you powers tailored to what you're a god of, right? Like if Greenie was worshiped as a God of Fortune, that might unlock the ability for us to buy it blessing-type powers.
And from what little I've read of Yozis in Exalted, they basically ARE their powers - Infernals can theoretically mental-judo their patron into changing their personality, just by researching new powers - because their patron Yozi automatically learns them as well.

So I would think that a Deva, espicially a young and undeveloped one, would be somewhat influenced by the powers they are granted.


Hm, gods in Exalted have power in direct proportion to their flock; they shrink back down to powerlessness if they lose their worshipers. Maybe being a deity has steep upkeep costs? Or maybe gods just don't have the framework to make permanent investments of TW, like we do?
>>
No. 74857 ID: 6c8f8d

Odd question... What do you think of the idea of creating a Noble Soul based on us, a mass of swarming opinions?
>>
No. 74858 ID: beeca1

>>74857
I'm fairly sure that the only way we count as an element is if we're Poor Judgment.

Which would actually be pretty powerful.
>>
No. 74866 ID: c61746

>>74858
I was thinking something along the lines of the Socratic method, discussion as idea refinement, or the devil's advocate, as a noble soul under Wordblood.

But a Seeing Soul of Poor Judgement would be very useful.
>>
No. 74869 ID: 03ab60

We'd probably fit better as individuals of a demonic race than a Noble Deva.
Having a demonic race might also grant advantages, of course. Would it, as a whole, have an element? 'Chaos', 'Ideas' or 'Choices' might be appropriate.

>>74831
>Infinite-TW cheat
It might be possible, but there are several potential obstacles to deal with. The two most obvious are:
A) Population increase requires soul increase.
We'd have to make new souls somehow, which would cost TW, taking a big chunk of our profits.
B) Mortals need Dreams.
I gather that mortal souls go to the dreamworld while their bodies sleep, presumably getting essential maintenance. It's unclear how this would work during a time stop. We'd probably need to rig up a substitute, otherwise our entire population might simply nod off and not wake until after we resume the flow of time... (Though on the other hand, we haven't heard of sleeping troubles in a fast-forwarded shadowland, so there's that.)
>>
No. 74871 ID: a23afd

TW is useless without using it in the outside world. Let me remind everyone that stopping time in the internal world to give us a long period of extra time results in Saulanna becoming very disoriented when she returns to the outside world. Using the internal world as a source of infinite time is not a legitimate strategy.
>>
No. 74882 ID: 454c81

>>74869
Dreaming doesn't require a world, it's internal to the soul... and since we're a titan in creation, we maybe able to grab souls from the well.
>>
No. 74905 ID: cee89f

>>74866
Or we could just do judgement, period =/ call me crazy but I don't think it's a great idea to define our highest titanic functions with Poor anything, let alone judgement.
>>
No. 74906 ID: beeca1

I will be incredibly surprised if Judgment turns out not to be taken.

And we could work it so that the soul can see everyone's mistakes, see through the eyes of people who are currently acting dumb, and the like. That'd serve as a useful warning system if it triggered off of our own mistakes.
>>
No. 74913 ID: 454c81

>>488186
Wordblood implied here that training 'the mortal or Heroic way' is a fine and dandy way of acquiring abilities, skills, and magic...


I think we might want to generate a list of things we could do along those lines.

1) Poison ourselves in small measures each day to build up an immunity to common assassins tools.
2) Each night before we go to bed, engage in a meditative yoga in the moonlight, to train up dexterity, mental resolve and the like.
>>
No. 74921 ID: dd3362

>Training
The yoga sounds good, but I'd want to get more toughness before we do the poison thing. It usually takes years for a human iirc; if we want to do it in a shorter time frame, we'd probably have to be more... intense... about it. Temporarily lowered toughness for a few weeks due to constant poison recovery fatigue sounds like a reasonable consequence to me. Besides, high Toughness is probably a requirement for poison resistance, anyway.

We'll probably use and/or craft distance weapon in the future, so bow or crossbow training seems prudent. Acrobatics/athletics might also suit us; running some obstacle courses could train that AND raise Agility and Toughness at the same time.
For Inspiration, we should train by speaking clearly with our mouth full of pebbles, reciting verses while running, that sort of thing - supplemented by social interaction.
Of course we should also nom through the library like crazy.
Note: 'Bookwriting' and 'Mentorship' (or whatever they'll be called) are competencies we could have particular use for in the future - once we get Power Word: Book, we can presumably use it to create whole new works from nothing, but making them accessible and pedagogical will probably be a different matter.
>>
No. 74922 ID: dd3362

Hmmm... Off-topic, it just struck me that what with the DS's time shenanigans, we may have a viable excuse for delaying our next meeting a bit more.
WE just got up from bed, but our visitors may be at totally different places with regards to their day-night rhythms. If we find out when Akatrina is supposed to sleep (Death Heroes do sleep, right?), then tell the Lunars, they might (falsely or not) give a completely incompatible time for their sleep, so we'd have 'no choice' but to synchronize our sleep schedules over a day or two, in order for everyone to be at their best for the meeting...
>>
No. 74929 ID: bfdd74

>>74922
That is a stall tactic that could last long enough for Kaan to have some of the books copied, and for us to hunt down those last few ghosts in the slaver ring, something we could claim we're doing as a means of thanking Kaan for his hospitality by clearing his land of ghosts who have broken his laws.
>>
No. 74930 ID: bfdd74

Also... given a raccoon is a middle category predator, we may be able to get a magic, descendent from the "Beast Senses" we already have, that is a tracking/"of shit we're being tracked" magic... Might help with detecting greenie.
>>
No. 74932 ID: bd678f

IMO, we should put firm limits on our SOULNOMMING.
While the soulsteel trade was vile, it is also fundamentally DEAD by now, so nomming those previously involved with it does little to solve CURRENT injustices.
Now, if we find an ACTIVELY villainous ghost, then yeah, fine. And investigating/arresting this MERCHANT and BARBARIAN CHIEFTAIN who was involved could be a good way of finding out whether anything heinous and nom-worthy is currently brewing.
But keep in mind that if we keep running around panic-gobbling ghosts, we're bound to set off alarm bells somewhere. And that we'll probably be easier to detect as a Titan the higher our SF is. And that in case Askalaff/Garmir is sneaking around spying on us, consuming souls is a kinda conspicuous activity. Not to mention that sooner or later, the leftover TW is bound to trigger Deva formation of our Moon Soul and Greenie - possibly transforming our body even further, making it harder to pass as human.

And this is not even touching on the ethical issues involved. (OR the meta-observation that the sooner we reach full-blown Titan status, the sooner this quest will END, so y'know, short-cuts will cut short the STORY.)
>>
No. 74936 ID: cee89f

>>74929
They DO already know we're still here because of an arrangement with Peregrin... this could work.

>>74932
I've seen enough of Jukashi's writing to put faith in his ability to adjust the story's length appropriately to our actions. Besides, 'longer' does not automatically mean 'better'.

There's a chance that the endgame will have nothing to do with whether or not we're a titan anyway. Maybe, for instance, the endgame begins when Saulanna discovers her element. Maybe she conquers the unconquered and rules all of Creation itself. Maybe she heals Haht'hek, undoes ED's escape and takes over the Underworld herself. Maybe she goes into the Wyld and makes a world where plant-mammal hybrids search for a special psychic-enabling material. Maybe they'll be in a world populated by tech dependent animal-people and super-soldier space weasels.

Just sayin'. There's a lot of ways this could go down.

As for soulnomming... I'd like to propose we make it an extremely temporary measure from now on. As soon as we can, we get Kairosa to a quick rate of TW generation, and then dedicate production to reviving the ghosts we've eaten. This debate doesn't matter if we no longer /need/ to eat the ghosts.
>>
No. 74949 ID: 01c571

On Cults: While I very much agree with getting ourselves some prayer down the line, I might recommend inserting portions of the titan Saulanna into existing Pantheons as fits rather than starting a cohesive whole.

Another possibility that comes to mind, as long as we're on the subject is enabling ourselves to acquire Ambrosia and Quintessence in our world body whether by a inventing an appropriate power or greasing a few wheels in Yu-shan. (Yes I have read Omphalic Reverence Receptacle, why do you ask?)

>>74932
Agree with you on most of this but for an expansion and a caveat.
1: As far as passing as a human goes, there may be a pretty simple and permanent solution to that: We upgrade our Lunar shapeshifting to include shifting into any of our Devas' forms/any combination of forms.
2: Taking a bit to check up on criminal activity, and around the region in general, sounds like a good idea even without soul eating. This is our Kingdom now after all and even if we leave for years at the first opportunity and run it by proxy, taking a (short) bit to ensure everything is running smoothly may pay off later, especially if we establish relationships with whom we can communicate once we develop the power to hear prayers before we go.

>>74936
Fully onboard with limited/entirely eliminated soul intake.
>>
No. 74980 ID: b99cb6

I'm only against eating souls for the logistical reasons. It's hard to keep a low profile if we keep devouring souls, no matter what cover story we have for it. Unless one of the souls we end up eating is a genuinely good person who got mixed up in the wrong business I wouldn't bother with any returning of souls to their pre-eaten forms.

>>74949
>We upgrade our Lunar shapeshifting
I think that itself is a problem, because of our reluctance to adapt our hero soul to us or ourselves to it prevents us from gaining such upgrades.
>>
No. 75010 ID: cee89f

>>74980
Well, putting aside for the moment that we'd need Autocthon to upgrade the Soul, we don't have to upgrade it to begin with. Lunars can already transform into spirits, if I recall. They simply need to get the ability for it - Saulanna's what we would have to mess with. And while we've already agreed we won't use TW to mess with her resonance with the soul, we can get new moon abilities without doing that. Heck, we already have, if I remember correctly, and if not, we can train the mundane way without spending TW.
>>
No. 75012 ID: bd678f

>Hero Soul
Yeah, I don't think it would currently be wise to spend TW to modify either the Hero Soul or ourselves.
Clumsily grafting TW onto a precision mechanism like that? Noooot gonna end well.
Modifying ourselves is also really really risky, especially until Greenie is properly separated from the Hero Soul - we might end up with a limit break counter!
Possibly we could go with a third option - creating a third entity: a mediator to fill in the gap between us and the Hero Soul. It might manifest as a proper road between us, instead of this rope bridge we have now.
A fourth option is to just meditate with the Hero Soul, commune with it and slowly feed it TW, getting it used to its new diet.

On the whole, though, I think it would be best to just let the Hero Soul develop at its own pace - there are advantages to doing things the old-fashioned way. For one thing, it currently doesn't need TW to give us abilities, so if we're training/questing, we'll actually grow faster than we otherwise would.
>>
No. 75054 ID: a40cdc

>>75012
I agree. This is one of the master pieces of Autochthon, Gaia and Luna... the chances of us doing something right while tweaking it or it's interaction with us with TW is very slim. But as Kairosa said, the lunar exaltation adapts by it's very nature and is acting like a lordly deva... I think just naturally letting it 'become' is the best option.
>>
No. 75058 ID: a74b38
File 137626391054.jpg - (18.43KB , 195x300 , dr_ cranium.jpg )
75058

To the whole "Titan of ???".

Why not learning/knowledge hunting/research?
Both Wormblood and Kairosa have a tendecy towards it, and the lunar hero soul would match to a concept of ethernal seeking of knowledge.
It would match, that Saulanna startet her life with nothing but the most basic knowledge(how to walk, how to talk, etc.)and now gains understanding of her World (both the inner and the outer one) at an allmos exponential Rate.
Also, there seems to be no one who claims learning, only the knowledge itself.

Tldr:
We science titan now. Afterwards Pizza! (Or cake for those who never heard about Dr. Cranium.)
>>
No. 75074 ID: cee89f

>>75058
1) ... Isn't that Autocthon's shtick?

2) What do Time, [Hero Soul's Element], Rebirth (seems to be a general consensus for an element), Curse (Greenie) and Communication have to do with science or learning?

... Lemme rephrase that. What about those things makes Saulanna more inclined towards learning than, say, redemption, rebirth, exploration, discovery?

Maybe if Wordblood were a Knowledge deva (and I think he said he wanted to make a Knowledge noble) but as a communicator? I really don't get it =/

The hero soul is an eternal adapter, ever-changing to suit it's environment. Hunting would be a secondary quality at best.
>>
No. 75100 ID: 7fb953

>>75074
What about a Titan of Evolution. Ideas (Wordblood) evolve over Time (Kairosa), when adaptation (Exaltation) proves to be advantageous is passes on to the next generation. Occasionally there are results that are disadvantageous (Greenie) but they are discarded after a while.

Gaia and Autochthon have a small part of this area, but no one claims it as a whole.
>>
No. 75102 ID: beeca1

>>75100
That's a bit close to Oramus' thing.

"Said to have been the first Primordial, Oramus is he who decided what concepts would be included in Creation and which ones would be segregated from it. He is named as one of the principle architects of Luna herself."
>>
No. 75106 ID: cee89f

>>75100
>Gaia and Autochthon have a small part of this area
Luna also has a piece of that pie, i believe, and evolution is close enough to growth that Sol might feel threatened by it. (Not saying no, here, just pointing that out)
>>
No. 75126 ID: 5d121c

>>75074

we could be a titan of redemption

not in the religious sense (obviously), more in the sense of fixing past wrongs

it would fit our devas, wordblood obviously has things he would want to fix, time is a pretty crucial component of it and "curse" and "adaptability" fit thematically as well

i really am still hoping for a rebirth deva
>>
No. 75129 ID: cee89f

>>75126
Agreed, for the most part. Will would probably fit well as well, considering the whole point of redemption is you find it through your own power.

Though, I'm not entirely sure about 'curse'. Redemption always struck me as more of an unending trial than a curse... actually never mind, that interpretation is close enough to a curse.

Agreed 100%. Saulanna the Redeemer!

>Rebirth
Same here, man. Healer of rebirth, here we come.
>>
No. 75130 ID: 2fc3e9

A healer of rebirth sounds like an incredibly shitty idea.

"Oh, you're wounded? Time to kill you! You'll be in perfectly good condition when you're reborn."
>>
No. 75131 ID: 2fc3e9

That was taking it a bit far, but my point is that rebirth always involves dying first, literally or metaphorically. Let's not associate that with a healer.
>>
No. 75132 ID: 5d121c

>>75131
ok, let's make a rebirth deva of healing instead
>>
No. 75133 ID: 5d121c

>>75132
jokes aside, one of the reasons i want a rebirth deva is kairosa - her "eat everything" thing would be beautifully counterbalanced and she would have "food" forever

i dont know if shed like this or dislike it, but i have a feeling she'd like it
>>
No. 75136 ID: 9f7acd

I think Rebirth is too specific an element. It works fine for healing flesh but what if we want to repair something non-living? There are many options that another element could include that Rebirth isn't associated with.

I say we should use Renewal. More general in meaning and doesn't sacrifice any of the functionality of Rebirth. Thoughts?
>>
No. 75139 ID: 3ef4c4

>>75133

Kairosa already balances herself, I would say. Yeah, she did have the big "I'll eat everything" bit, but remember her little speech:

>I, who begin and end all tales! I, who devour eternity, yet nurture all growth within myself! I am the one who who raises up the young, and carries the weak and aged to their end! Really? I dunno.

Which had a sort of balance emphasis to it. So there's a give as well as a take there. And she's a "Feeding" soul, which can mean she feeds in that she eats, but also can mean she feeds in that she gives food to others. Which she does, metaphorically, by giving energy.
>>
No. 75140 ID: cee89f

>>75131
It was Wordblood's idea. We suggested a feeding soul of rebirth, he told us we should save it for a healing purpose.


>-Rebirth
>"I think that would be more suited for a healing Purpose."

Here's the post:
>>/quest/468303

He doesn't seem like the type to suggest such a thing if we really have to kill someone just to make it work.

>>75136
Easy, we get a crafting deva who can do both repair and creation of new things. And with a Rebirth and Time deva, he could create items that last forever, or even just remake themselves after a while.

I am not a fan of trying to broaden a deva's abilities outside their purview. Time works so well as a Feeding element because it lets Kairosa do things unique and powerful with energy management. We should try and have our devas specialize in fantastic, powerful ways. Like active purposes with passive elements, and vice versa.
>>
No. 75141 ID: 5d121c

>>75139
she said she would eat everything eventually

a better outcome would be if she had enough to eat forever so that didnt happen

you know what i meant
>>
No. 75143 ID: 5d121c

>>75136
we could use rebirth on anything since concepts can be reborn

it doesnt need to be biological birth... which doesnt even have that much to do with rebirth in the first place, i mean rebirth isnt something that happens in nature to things that we would be the targets of healing
>>
No. 75144 ID: cf49fc

>>75143
Well let's see. If Kairosa is our Shiva, and Wordblood is our Vishnu, we'll need a Brahmā. I recommend following this course of action. Wordblood is the manifestation of the Written Word and thus preserves everything by existing.

Perhaps a better option than a Rebirth Deva would be a Creator Deva to balance things out. History has many such trinities.
>>
No. 75146 ID: cee89f

>>75142
>Rebirth doesn't happen in nature
What about metamorphosis?

I mean sure, it's not literal, but in a metaphorical sense (enough for a Titan) a caterpillar is reborn as a butterfly, right?
>>
No. 75150 ID: 76f779

What you guys want
is a Deva of Enthalpy.
>>
No. 75152 ID: cee89f

>>75150
....

*google*

...Isn't one specific type of measurement (specifically for thermodynamic energy) too specific for a lord? Also I think we had this discussion already =/
>>
No. 75153 ID: 5d121c

>>75152
well i think a deva of entropy would be a better choice for a lord

or maybe even a deva of dissolution / corruption / "things fall apart" / the void / obivion

and no, i dont think we want such a deva, even if the neverborn would probably help us out if we had it
>>
No. 75154 ID: beeca1

Let's have a deva of measurement.
>>
No. 75155 ID: 47a120

>>75153
Kairosa already expressed that this is an aspect of herself did she not?
Entropy is going to be one of her nobles
>>
No. 75160 ID: bce60e

>>75129
As far as a Redemption theme goes, Greenie could be re-conceptualized as Justice, Balance, Karma or somesuch, which would fit the theme well enough.

(Really, the more I think about it, the more Balance seems like the Curse's Thing. It's all about inflicting on people that which they have inflicted on others, upsetting the delicate balance of Mind / Hero Soul, scrupulously compensating for madness outbreaks with willpower regained, etc.
So, maybe Greenie could be defined as an Avenger/Manipulator/Destroyer with a Balance Element?)
>>
No. 75161 ID: bce60e

>>75131
I think a Healing Deva of Rebirth would be able to heal someone without killing them - it's covered by the "Healing" purpose, after all. Kairosa has Feeding that isn't exclusively Time-related, and Wordblood has Aiding abilities that aren't Word-related.
From what I gather, Purpose + Element overlaps with, like, a medium-size, intense circle for the Purpose, and a huge, fainter circle for the Element. Purpose stuff is easier to do than Element stuff, but basically everything, including other Devas, is affected by the Element.

So I figure having a REBIRTH Healer would mean:
*It would be extra awesome in healing things when it involved literal or metaphorical rebirth, like healing cripples, restoring youth, raising the dead, lessening the pain when Saulanna forms new Devas, etc.
*It would eventually get abilities that are Rebirth-related but not necessarily healing, like controlling reincarnation, changing a mortal's race/gender or reviving an old fashion craze.
*Every Deva would be able, with effort, to extend their powers in a 'rebirth'-like direction, like Wordblood would probably be able to summon up books whose every copy has been destroyed centuries ago, and Kairosa could un-eat souls at lower level than would otherwise be possible.
>>
No. 75166 ID: cee89f

>>75153
>Entropy
We already have one of those. :P
>"I am the aspect of time which consumes"

>>75160
Maybe, but I don't think the Titans were that keen on balance while they were dieing. More 'screw you guys, ima break your shit!'

Good idea, though.

>>75161
Like a venn diagram.

>Rebirth powers
Agreed. Naturally, when we get around to it, we'll ask our devas about what kind of abilities our various ideas would have.

>>75154
.....
Why?
>>
No. 75167 ID: beeca1

>>75166
Because it'd probably be really useful in scanning people and stuff like that?
>>
No. 75171 ID: 9f7acd

>>75161
>raising the dead
I hadn't thought about that, a Healing Deva of Rebirth could take a ghost and give it a living body again. A higher level ability to be sure but 100% within it's element and purpose. That'll give us some interesting options, here in the land of the dead.

>>75167
>scanning people
That's pretty well covered under Wordbloods World Reading ability. I'd say measurement and math is close to his theme anyway. At least the written forms of it.
>>
No. 75172 ID: 5d121c

Measurement really doesn't seem like Lord Deva material.
>>
No. 75175 ID: cee89f

>>75167
>>75171
What he said. Heck, even if we didn't have Wordblood, what aside from looking at things would a measurement deva do? Time, for instance, gave us the ability to Time-Lock our inner world, undo TW expenditures, and later on we might even be able to manipulate the past.

>Rebirth
I imagine it'll be a while before we can make this deva, but personally I'm looking forward to it =3

>>75172
That too.
>>
No. 75181 ID: b99cb6

>>75172
>>75175
I'd say it isn't even appropriate for a Noble.
>>
No. 75182 ID: cee89f

>>75181
Maybe if we had a Mathematics/Numbers Lord. But yeah.
>>
No. 75199 ID: 5d121c

>>75182
>>75181
I don't know, I thought that if something is a commoner Deva it's supposed to be an entire race of creatures devoted to a concept, not a single entity anymore. Would that make sense for Measurement?
>>
No. 75201 ID: 9f7acd

>>75199
Commoner of Measurement? Sure thing that's perfect. We're a long way off from having to worry about them, though.
>>
No. 75203 ID: bf54a8

>>75201
something less simple, what about a noble deva for kai that measures time? it keeps track of the moments that have passed. and since there is someone keeping track of what has ALREADY happened, kai can exert more effort into the present or future.
>>
No. 75207 ID: cee89f

For some reason I now want to see what would happen if Kairosa and an exact clone of Kairosa tried to eat each other. .___. And I have no idea why.

>>75199
....

Huh.

That's... never been brought up, as far as i remember (maybe it's a thing in Exalted canon?), but... yeah, that would make sense.
>>
No. 75213 ID: bf54a8

no, commoners do menial tasks for the higher parts. like, for my idea of measuring time, a commoner would sit there counting the instances of a type of moment. like counting the number of times a hero has told someone "they wont get away with this"
very basic ideas. but with a thousand of them all doing tidbits of the minutia it frees up the higher devas to do whatever.
>>
No. 75214 ID: 01c571

>>75199
>>75203
I think this is overcomplicating it; Measurement makes more sense to me as a set of skills that can be learned by any deva, depending on context, than a power for a deva in and of itself: any Deva should be able to delve into measurement within it's own field. For example, A logic elemental deva would find it easy to judge the absolute truth or falsehood of statements while a warrior purposed soul would find it natural to judge enemy prowess, ect.) They may be more... [specialized?] than humans but these are whole people we're dealing with after all.

To look at that suggested time measurement Deva: Those powers have already begun to exist in the shape of both Wordblood's archiving our earlier adventures and the forked path oracle power.

Which is not to say that a measurement purpose is intrinsically unnecessary, just that to justify it would require a continuous complicated function on the rough order of (helping to) maintain and coordinate with the loom of fate, rebuilding the calendar of the dead, or to draw from canonical first circles, creating a race of janitors sufficient to clean a city the size of a solar system.
>>
No. 75216 ID: bf54a8

>>75214
>devas
>doing anything half-assed
>>
No. 75222 ID: cee89f

Is anyone else getting a Bastion vibe from Saulanna's inner world?

>>75216
... Where did he say that? Or even imply it?
>>
No. 75233 ID: 5d121c

>>75222
we'd need a deva of color for that
>>
No. 75237 ID: 01531c

I suggested Enthalpy because I thought it was the inverse of Entropy!!!

Back in chem class, my chemistry textbook talked about "energy of enthalpy, the amount of energy needed for a (non-reductive) chemical reaction"

That's what I recall.
>>
No. 75238 ID: c23ab0

>>75237

Extropy is the inverse of entropy.
>>
No. 75241 ID: 5d121c

>>75237
i thought enthalpy was just a measure of entropy
>>
No. 75242 ID: 5d121c

>>75207
yeah, that's how demons work in exalted canon IIRC
>>
No. 75244 ID: ab3973

>Commoner devas
It kind of puts everything into perspective that one day, we'll have a commoner race - hundreds, even thousands of individuals - each member of which will have powers comparable to, or greater than, Kairosa's or Wordblood's current state...
>>
No. 75245 ID: 9f7acd

>>75207
>Kairosa and an exact clone of Kairosa
With the way Devas elements work, they'd end up becoming one Kairosa instantly, no eating involved.

>>75244
Commoners wouldn't be at all flexible or interesting like our Lord Devas are though.
>>
No. 75246 ID: cee89f

>>75245
If they were part of the same Titan or just let that happen, yes.
>>
No. 75261 ID: 01531c

>>75238
Thank you so much!

Making a Deva of Extropy is what I meant to suggest all along!
>>
No. 75263 ID: b99cb6

>>75261
The word doesn't only mean the reverse of entropy, though. It's a transhumanism philosophy. Which would make for a more interesting Deva probably but with a rather different focus than you intended.

Have a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropy
>>
No. 75266 ID: fd7eca

Entropy is sort of bad mojo in the setting, since it's associated with the powers of Oblivion and with the Neverborn. Which, in turn, powers/is powered by the death and decay of Titanic entities. Aside such unholy powers, it isn't even a physical principle like it is in the real world; errant energy is eventually gathered up as magical essence and stored in magical creatures and places, ready to be used. You even get new energy coming in from the Wyld.

The general principle of "everything ends eventually" exists, if that's more what you were thinking; but (if all is well) endings imply beginnings. Such as with Saturn, the Maiden of Endings, or indeed with Kairosa. The implication, philosophically, is that nothing really ends, just changes; souls naturally reincarnate, essence flows through the world, and the things Kairosa eats are turned into sustenance for new creations. And, again speaking philosophically/thematically, things which try to deny this cycle of transformations (bringing back the dead, or changing the past, for examples) are unnatural acts of hubris that, when possible at all, are usually doomed to bring a hefty price.

However, I direct you to some ancient presocratic greek philosophy. Empedocles proposed the theory that the universe existed in a cycle between Love (or harmony) and Strife (or discord). Each force imparted motion on the world, the one bringing things together and the other pushing them apart. When Love was at its peak, the universe existed in a single unity of everything; as Strife becomes dominant, it pushes everything apart, forming the Elements as it does, until eventually everything will be separated out; eventually, Love will begin to be stronger again and gradually pull everything back together until the cycle starts again. The concepts sound familiar, don't you think? Perhaps Saulanna could consider something like this.

Of course, Love and Strife both happen to exist under the dominions of Venus and Uranus, in my version of the setting.
>>
No. 75275 ID: 933f92

I've been worried about something and I want to share it with you. I don't think it will stop the behavior, nor will this behavior make me stop reading, but it's likely to make me stop suggesting.

As time passes and Jukashi makes more and more and more posts here, but not updates, there is a widening gap of knowlege between those who read the discussion and those who simply read the quest. There's meta planning for future updates and reactions to them here as well. There's discussions and diatribes explaining why x is bad or y is good, agreements on the same, and so on.

So, when Jukes finally does update, there will inevitably be people who will call for the ignorance and countermanding of suggestions made in ignorance of this thread. It's my stalwart belief that a quest should be enjoyable on its own merits, without the wiki or discussion thread. All information required to post and be taken seriously should be there.

In short, when Jukashi updates, I forsee a lot of "Read the discussion thread, we agreed not to do that" or "Read the disc, that's stupid/wouldn't work" or just "Read the discussion thread". It adds another barrier to entry for newcomers to the quest, and prevents casual fans from participating.

I have no idea how to stop this, it's just something that heavily irks me in quests with long downtimes like this, and I wanted to get it off my chest. Sorry.
>>
No. 75278 ID: 41690e

>>75275
I can understand this frustration. I feel it myself, sometimes.

If it's any consolation, it's not as if things 'decided' in dis are set in stone. (For instance, back when we were first brainstorming elements for our feeder deva to be, Time found almost no support. Then Kairosa happened).

There's also the fact that a lot of this planning and brainstorming is regrettably taking place in an absence of important information. Things that seem like a good idea now could go out the window with a single update as we learn more about what's happening, or the situation changes or develops in some way.
>>
No. 75293 ID: daa2d0

>>75275
You could argue that the discussion thread is pretty much part of the narrative ever since Wordblood went there to conspire with us...
I figure many readers went there to read Wordblood's parts, and stuck around reading the rest.

Anyway, there hasn't been a huge amount of Word of God dispensed here, as of yet. The only time I really noticed WoG intrusion was when I read chapter 1 and someone suddenly said to use Inner Den - I was a bit confused until I found out that the full list of Abilities had been shared in the discussion thread.

So, how would you like us to act to forestall this division?
If I make a suggestion in the main thread, I can paste in the rationale for it from the discussion thread. Then again, someone might want to argue the point, and arguments are supposed to be held in the discussion thread, so...
>>
No. 75296 ID: fd7eca

>>75275

Unfortunately, this is sort of the way the quest is. It's a long-term quest with lots of planning and building and mysteries and it naturally generates discussion. If it wasn't here, it would be clogging up the quest threads themselves (if there were any running). To be honest, though, I didn't expect people to keep on discussing while the quest wasn't running. I don't like to discourage discussion, either, but to be similarly honest I think the majority of these discussions are going to be abandoned when the quest does run again and new information and circumstances flow in. What people are doing now is mostly just talking for the sake of the talking, which is fine. I do it myself.

As for what information I've given by Word of God, I intend to either link back here or have it revealed in-quest as well, when it become relevant. The little bit with Wordblood going to the disc thread to talk was sort of fun but probably not a good idea, in retrospect, so it's unlikely I'll do that again. I would like to do little ITQ-like posts by the devas, too, but I don't think it's such a good idea with such bloated disc threads as Lunar has.
>>
No. 75298 ID: af8414

I kind of liked the bit where we got to talk to WordBlood a lot. I think it could work as a sometimes thing, so long as you link to the thread when it happens and have a clear indication of when the section's over?
>>
No. 75300 ID: 96c896

Personally I think all the planning is fine so long as when there are relevant choices in the quest people state their plans in the quest thread.
>>
No. 75308 ID: a12965

>>75296
I think what a lot of this discussion boils down to right now is just scratching the itch while the quest is inactive.

>I would like to do little ITQ-like posts by the devas, too, but I don't think it's such a good idea with such bloated disc threads as Lunar has.
Then do them inside ITQ. Seeing Wordblood or Kairosa pipe in from time to time makes everyone in this thread happy, I'm sure.
>>
No. 75318 ID: 5d121c

>>75296
most of this is going to be discarded, but then most suggestions in the quest thread are discarded as well

im sure a thing or two from here will stick
>>
No. 75361 ID: da91d2

Anyway, back to generating more or less half-baked plans - here's an idea I had:

Peregrin's a sorceror, right? He can summon stuff.
Could we use an Air Elemental to neutralize Garmir's scent manipulation, once we get to the big meeting?

Pro: removing one negative modifier from us, while possibly leaving it to affect Akatrina.
Con: Spending a big load of Power that Peregrin could presumably use on better things.

Questions: Is an Air Elemental capable of such finesse? Can P. summon one, or does it require special conditions? Can he do it ahead of time, regaining the Power by the time the meeting takes place?
>>
No. 75372 ID: 5d121c

>>75361
i dont think it would be worth it

not that it costs that much but the benefit wouldnt be that awesome either, if it would even work
>>
No. 75392 ID: cee89f

>>75275
It's not really something that can be avoided, even with less-than-bloated discussion threads.

>>75296
We love seeing Kairosa and Wordblood around D=

>>75361
Way to think outside the box =)

...But even if an air elemental could do that, could it do so stealthily, without alerting anyone to its presence nor its spell? (I'm not as well versed in Exalted lore as I'd like, the answer could be a resounding yes) I dunno, it just seems like a big risk for a comparatively small benefit.

>>75300
Agreed.
>>
No. 75447 ID: aef4c1

>>75392
I don't think it has to be undetectable, just plausibly undetectable; I mean, what's Askalaff gonna do, loudly complain that we aren't letting Garmir manipulate us - alerting Akatrina to what he's doing?
And Akatrina (who, let's face it, WILL detect it) might not mention it either, out of fear of Askalaff catching on - us being less vulnerable to the Moon Heroes is a good thing, as far as she's concerned...

Best-case scenario, both are sitting there, acutely aware of it, but simply not bringing it up out of fear of how the other would react. Delicious awkwardness!

The real question is, of course, what Garmir would do about it, if he detected the Elemental.
>>
No. 75466 ID: 01c571

>>75447
First thing of note: we don't have to, and probably shouldn't, face Akatrina and the moon heroes all at once.

Beyond that I think there's another question to be asked here: What other ways are there to stop Garmir and Askalaff from influencing us or turn said manipulation to our own ends? Given that they seem naturally well inclined to us, Might our interests be better served by getting them on our side?

Also worth considering, We have sight beyond Sight which can see spirits and spells, decent odds Garmir and Askalaff might too. Even worse if it has an upgrade we don't know about.

---

To break this down to a lengthy consideration what are those ends we're going for? The way I can see it, our broad choices at the moment are to 1: Preserve our own freedom & independence, 2: Gain tutelage from the moon heroes, or 3: Gain tutelage from the Dragon's shadow. We don't need to, and probably shouldn't, limit ourselves with just one goal but if we want the first to any degree we will either need enough personal power to hold our ground (which will require either eating souls or an investment of time) or allies who can assist us (Lots of ways to get them but they need to be strong enough to make a difference and weak/well-inclined enough that we can influence them.)

At the moment we have our Devas and Peregrin more or less in the bag as allies but they probably won't be enough, in the present conflict we also have possible allies in the Moon heroes, the Underworld, and maaybe the local ghosts as potential allies with Luna and aforementioned ghosts a possible resource (in many more ways than spare souls) depending on exactly how much effort we want to put into cultivating them and for how long.

The moon heroes strike me as the best current choices for allies simply out of lowest hanging fruit and the one least likely to bite us later but there's some stuff to be looked into given that a lot of our options, especially the easy ones, will probably alienate someone or other.

In the long term we'll definitely want Exalted allies, even if only to prevent get overpowered in the exact same manner as our predecessors, but there's a ton and a half ways to do that as long as we aren't stupid.

---

And in the end relevant questions to pursue later: If we just go full gung ho Lunar get full tattoos, sacrifice our self affecting Titan powers, Ect. How can we limit our losses by replacing such limitations with moon abilities? More to the point, what can we do if we talk to the moon heroes about something more special order to our powers*? A lot of Wordbloods worries on this issue seemed like his own uncertainty (Exalt/Recent history stuff seems to be his weakest points, advice wise) and it might be better to take a second opinion.

What (if anything) can the Dragon's Shadow or other factors do to break our hold on Peregrin? Can we take measures to keep him loyal regardless? (We've bound him in the same way our predecessors bound the gods: Given what we know we know of Samsara we should be worried that he'll subvert it or that it will ) Suggestion on the front, Wordblood has archived our memories, if Peregrin has access to (select and carefully chosen portions of) this archive, it may help his research greatly and in a way easily provided once the initial investment is made and completely unavailable through any other means.

How would various folks see us if they learned we were a titan? I have a feeling it mightn't be so cut and dry as "EEEK, Titans!". Given that 1: Many people who would will also be going "EEEK, Anathema!" anyways**, 2: Everybody's been on the receiving side of point one may well be guilt tripped if we point out they're doing the exact same thing, 3: people who don't care about point one are less likely to care about titanhood*** and 4: We have the example & folklore around the Hell Heroes and the Dragon's Shadow to color everything. (Luna and books might be good resources on these.)

Figure out moon/titan power recovery options: The more we have the more open our options are.

*I'm aware exactly how risky this is and note that this should only be attempted if we think we can safely reveal ourselves to Askalaff and Garmir. Tall order, but Twin Forked Oracle, Kiarosa's taste of history, and seeing the tongue slip are ideally sited to clandestinely finding out if that's possible.
**depends on how much the Immaculate religion has changed.
***see previous footnote, excludes any gods who think we could control them and anyone old enough to remember the Primordial war.
>>
No. 75471 ID: cee89f

>>75466
>What other ways are there to stop Garmir and Askalaff from influencing us or turn said manipulation to our own ends?
Our biggest advantage on this front is that none of our opponents know we're a Titan, nor our precise motivations for staying out of their machinations.

>Given that they seem naturally well inclined to us, Might our interests be better served by getting them on our side?
... this could work. Convince them that Akatrina is a bigger problem than Peregrin, get them to help us get rid of her. Two moon heroes, two devas and a death hero... even with Garmir, that's gotta be a net positive.

>What (if anything) can the Dragon's Shadow or other factors do to break our hold on Peregrin? Can we take measures to keep him loyal regardless?
Peregrin's loyalty is guaranteed partly because of the oath, but largely because we're far more fascinating than anything DS could offer. His lust for knowledge will ultimately keep him fixated on us. The true name oath is all we can reasonably do without turning him into a slave, and if his essence is at least partially in line with DS (the guy who reportedly loathes slavery with a passion) he'd try even harder to break out of that.

On top of that, he has stated previously that he doesn't want stronger dealings with DS.

>*I'm aware exactly how risky this is and note that this should only be attempted if we think we can safely reveal ourselves to Askalaff and Garmir. Tall order, but Twin Forked Oracle, Kiarosa's taste of history, and seeing the tongue slip are ideally sited to clandestinely finding out if that's possible.
Hmmmm...

Could we ask for their position on Titans as a whole? Drop hints we think they're just being prejudiced against DS? Whatever they try to do to explain it, Seeing the Tongue slip and World Reading should help us get a pretty accurate picture of their opinions on Titans. Test the waters, so to speak?

>>75447
I'm mostly curious whether the elemental itself will have to be plainly obvious. That might draw questions. ("Uh, why is there a tornado with legs sampling the soup?" "What, do you have a problem with tornados?")

But if the spell is too obvious, it could also be a sign of weakness to both groups. And to the moon heroes, since we needed Peregrin to summon it, it could be a sign we're being manipulated by /both/ death heroes. Even if we want to go with them, we're trying to convince them we /don't/ need to be kidnapped.

>The real question is, of course, what Garmir would do about it, if he detected the Elemental.

RIP AND TEAR, probably.
>>
No. 75475 ID: 01c571

>>75471
>The true name oath is all we can reasonably do without turning him into a slave, and if his essence is at least partially in line with DS (the guy who reportedly loathes slavery with a passion) he'd try even harder to break out of that.
Well I was considering taking it the other way entirely: the True name oath strikes me not so much as too far from slavery as too close to it and my worry is that we might through mismanagement push Peregrin towards the Dragon's Shadow as a means to escape. My wonderings thus are what a bond of Loyalty, Comraderie, or just two Mad Scientists who bounce things off of each other might do to assure his support. (For example, saying "hey here's the stuff I'm going to teach you now I'm heading off with the Lunars/Akatrina" feels doomed to end badly while "Hey Let's find more Titan fragments for research/Eat the Neverborn/Ect, and see what happens!", seems like it will end somewhat better, if still not perfectly.)

>Could we ask for their position on Titans as a whole? Drop hints we think they're just being prejudiced against DS? Whatever they try to do to explain it, Seeing the Tongue slip and World Reading should help us get a pretty accurate picture of their opinions on Titans. Test the waters, so to speak?

Swap out "just prejudiced" for "What do you know that I don't?" and it sounds like a plan. To flesh it out a little further, we could also ask Luna and read up for general information on the Ebon Dragon's escape and the war with the underworld so we don't end up looking like we were born yesterday when we have the conversation. (Which, for obvious reasons, is a very real risk.)
>>
No. 75487 ID: aef4c1

>Moon Hero position on Titans
We could simply ask Askalaff about how Creation got started. He's supposed to teach us this stuff, he's qualified to do so, and anyway, he probably likes to hear himself speak - he seems the type.
Then we can ask some probing questions while he tells the story, to get his personal viewpoint.
>>
No. 75491 ID: cee89f

>>75475
>True name oath
Normally I'd agree, except that part of that oath is that we teach him magic, which is exactly what he wanted from us from the start.

>Swap out "just prejudiced" for "What do you know that I don't?" and it sounds like a plan. To flesh it out a little further, we could also ask Luna and read up for general information on the Ebon Dragon's escape and the war with the underworld so we don't end up looking like we were born yesterday when we have the conversation. (Which, for obvious reasons, is a very real risk.)
If that does happen we could say we know basic details and rumors but nothing concrete. Granted, it won't be perfect, but for some things at least, it'll help.

>>75487
I guess. Point is, we strike up a conversation, test the waters for his viewpoint on Titans and the viewpoints of his fellows.
>>
No. 76415 ID: 615e82

My proposal for Saulanna's Heart's Desire: "Claim, analyze, and eventually enlighten all that has been lost to darkness."

It seems to fit with everything she's done so far: taking responsibility for the music box situation, reluctantly but repeatedly eating ghosts, the oath of fealty, trying to think before she speaks. It's probably incompatible with the agenda of the Dragon's Shadow, and could also be used to resist any Moon Heroes who want her to leave this Shadowed Land before she's fully analyzed and enlightened it.

Speaking of which, a possible strategy for the next social confrontation: go on the offensive, and cover for the transformation by pretending to be a completely different individual. First, wait for the light to die down a bit while discussing the plan with him. Repress the rest of it using titan powers. Have Peregrin teleport Saulanna outside the Needles, then teleport back in by himself (or, if it's possible and a more economical use of the power, teleport just her). Maybe he runs around a bit making other preparations, such as warning Alice how to respond appropriately. Then, Saulanna walks up to the front door and pounds on it, no fancy introduction, just "I'm back." Commence social combat by asking the visiting heroes, "Who's in charge here?" Before they finish responding, drop back into time-paused inner world for just a few minutes, have Saulanna psyche herself up for the next part. Maybe use Power Word: Stop, just to unambiguously establish that this significantly taller, horned individual is NOT a moon hero, or anything else they've faced before. Turn to Peregrine, ask him "Who owns this castle, the surrounding lands, and your sorry ass?" An honest answer should be adequate setup for favorable resolution of the 'who's in charge here' subject, which in turn should be easy to turn to further social advantage.

To the tracking team, Saulanna can say "The newly-exalted Moon Hero you came here for shouldn't need tattoos to be safe from wyld taint as long as she's under my protection. Even if I turn out to be wrong about that, I've got a team of my own, at least as well-equipped as you are to spot the problem early and deal with it by whatever means necessary. As such, I ask that you refrain from any further efforts to recruit her before she departs this Shadowed Land."

If anyone asks about the resemblance, use tricky wording (infinite linguistics, yay!) to dodge while remaining mostly honest: Peregrine was doing some horribly unethical experiments, some of the details of which he still *glare at Peregrine* hasn't properly reported to you. You do know that a young woman escaped and shortly thereafter exalted as a Moon Hero, presumably because of what she'd endured in the course of those experiments. If she doesn't want to come back to this meeting and get her perspective twisted around every which way by a couple of social-oriented elders, you're not planning to let anyone hunt her down and force the issue, because the intellectual integrity of anyone inside your territory or under your protection, or especially both, is not to be taken lightly.

Not as sure how to deal with Dulahan in the short term, but the Heart's Desire I'm suggesting could be interpreted to include building a harem of Death Heroes as a reasonable subgoal, so... on that front, step one seems to be: figure out what the emissary really wants.
>>
No. 76417 ID: 615e82

Another sneaky trick, inspired by one of Earthscorpion's unwoven-coadjutor-based heretical charms: Wordblood or Kairosa could temporarily take control of the body's capacity to speak, and say things which are completely true for them but not for Saulanna. For example, Wordblood could say "I'm not the new Moon Hero you spoke with previously. I've been living around here quietly since before the dawn of the First Age, so I've got no particular stake modern politics, nor any urgent desire to become entangled in so much strife." Then Kairosa could say something like "I'm very patient. If you're skeptical, I could tell you the history of this place, and various ancient cosmic secrets, in alarmingly personal detail. The Moon Hero in question is one of my few known blood relatives and closest friends, so I'm certain she's still nearby, and if she tries anything remotely dangerous I'll know about it before you do."
>>
No. 76421 ID: 3dd384

>>76417
okay on the one hand that's pretty clever.
on the other hand, well, the Tell.
>>
No. 76424 ID: 615e82

>>76421
Generic excuse for any similarities and shared knowledge between Saulanna and the fictional reclusive power-word-using behemoth is blood sympathy. That said, the goal isn't really to completely sell these visitors on the idea, so much as put them off-balance enough that they want to retreat and do more research, and convince them that the situation has been stable and will continue to be stable long enough that they can afford to do so. The sort of person who goes blindly charging in against a completely unknown and non-hostile supernatural being on it's home territory doesn't become a diplomat, or for that matter, survive to be centuries old.
>>
No. 76433 ID: cee89f

>>76424
No but that diplomat is a moon hero who wanted to kill/eat the deathknight diplomat just for existing, and he does travel with Garmir.
>>
No. 76436 ID: 615e82

>>76433
Wanted to, sure, but didn't actually roll Join Battle. Two on unfamiliar ground, versus three plus a stair-climbing horse, is not good odds if skill levels are even remotely comparable. Especially if their main goal is still to bring Saulanna back alive and cooperative, rather than alienating her by killing her current mentor!

Similar logic applies to Dulahan: she's potentially outnumbered here, and suave as she seems, she's already afraid of something before the full-bore 'ancient reclusive behemoth' intimidation act has even started.
>>
No. 76438 ID: 615e82

Another angle on the intimidation thing, again, strictly true as stated but strongly misleading: "It hasn't been completely quiet, no. Sometimes people seek me out for one reason or another, but when such a situation escalates to violence there are only two ways it's ever ended: they swear to serve me, or there's a mysterious disappearance and I make some polite excuses to the attacker's next of kin."
>>
No. 76439 ID: e29d20

I just want to ask: did the adventure start up again and I missed it? Or are you guys just talking because the adventure is just that awesome?
>>
No. 76440 ID: 3dd384

>>76439
Pretty sure it's just people discussing solutions for "next time".

Jukashi's active quest right now is the Ridiculous Asteroidverse AU.
>>
No. 76441 ID: cee89f

>>76439
Nah. We're talking because it's 20 gallons of awesome in a 12-oz can which is itself made of awesome.

>>76440
And battle quest... sort of.
>>
No. 76451 ID: aef4c1

>Pretending to be another Lunar
I like the out-of-box thinking, but it seems a bit sitcom-ish to me; when I think of the scenes likely to result, I hear the laugh track in my head, and I shudder.
I mean, yeah, there's definitely a non-zero chance that it works, what with the weird abilities we can showcase - but if it fails, it will likely fail catastrophically. Even if it succeeds, we will deal with the repercussions for the foreseeable future, with Lunars coming by to visit the "Elder".

Personally, I'm more in favor of some kind of intricate plot where we convince both Moon Heroes and Death Hero that we're secretly on their side and they should play along with us, ultimately resulting in a scenario where both sides feel they "won"...

But hey, Kairosa has her Forked-Path Oracle - we can evaluate a lot of possible plots for how likely they are to work, as long as we can agree on criteria for success.
(While we're at it, maybe we should also use it to check for whether going with a particular side or staying is a clearly superior choice.)

On the whole, I think we'll need more info - such as how hard it'll be to change back - before settling on a definite plan.
>>
No. 76459 ID: 615e82

>>76451
>Even if it succeeds, we will deal with the repercussions for the foreseeable future, with Lunars coming by to visit the "Elder".

I'm not saying pretend to be a Moon Hero elder. She'd need a lot of specialized knowledge she doesn't have to pull that off, and, as you said, even in a best-case outcome it would attract a lot of undesired attention later.

I'm saying pretend to be a human-scale behemoth: something like Arad the Hunter or Vorvin-Derlin, but with a less hostile specialty. That way, if they already detected some weird essence-scent on Saulanna, and notice the same thing but stronger on 'Peregrine's boss,' and realize it's some unfamiliar subcategory of titan... well, that's consistent with the claims, same way the Lintha would smell like Kimbery. Best-case outcome is she gets to claim credit for Peregrine's existing policies of mostly neutrality, but with the increased credibility of neither having started a fight nor failed to finish one in (by implication, at least) all of recorded history including the height of the Old Realm. Seems like the only disciples that story would attract are prospective akuma, which might be desirable.

There is, as you say, a distinct possibility of the whole thing blowing up in her face... but that's true of pretty much any plan at this point, including abject surrender to one side or the other. The real goal is just to buy some time for her titanic powers to mature, without revealing that that's what she's doing, and this at least has the advantages of audacity and playing to Saulanna's established strengths.
>>
No. 76468 ID: cee89f

>>76459
I'm not as familiar with Exalted lore as I'd like, so... honest question here. Assuming that this plan even works (which i remain skeptical of):

Will the Lunars honestly be more on board with their Lunar being under the control of a Behemoth than a Death Hero, or DS? Because it really doesn't seem like it. Especially when they're not sure of that Behemoth's motives or allegiances to begin with. For all they know, this new Behemoth IS allied to DS.
>>
No. 76471 ID: 615e82

>>76468
I don't know enough about these particular NPCs to say for sure. They probably wouldn't be happy about it, but then again, they wouldn't be happy about any outcome that doesn't involve Saulanna being tattooed and indoctrinated in a timely fashion.

If the relationship is spun as nurturing rather than exploitative (such as by referring to Saulanna as a friend or child rather than an asset, and criticizing Peregrine's treatment of her in a way which is consistent with that attitude), AND the behemoth in question seems too unfamiliar and formidable to act against immediately... well, maybe they'll back off for the time being. Maybe they'll decide to wait until Saulanna grows a bit, feels stifled, and then offer her the prospect of independence and a community of equal peers and a wider world to explore. Maybe they'll just do some research on what the behemoth's weaknesses might be and then come back in a month or two with a hit squad. Even if they're only delayed and deflected from full understanding of the situation for a little while, every day is one more point of Titan's Will closer to Saulanna's full potential, on top of whatever relatively mundane actions she takes.

As for the behemoth's agenda, well, that's what Saulanna&co. need to be explaining, in a credible sort of a way. If she's being equally rude and cryptic to Dulahan, that's evidence against the idea of being allied with the Dragon's Shadow. If they've never heard of her, and she doesn't know jack about the wider political situation, but she can casually recite local and cosmological history to ten decimal places, that's evidence that she's been hiding out in the immediate vicinity for a very long time and not making waves, which in turn is evidence that she's willing and able to continue minding her own business if only they leave well enough alone.

This is, of course, not a perfect plan. I'm open to suggestions for how it could be improved, or alternative plans which might be safer or more efficacious or both.
>>
No. 76473 ID: cee89f

>>76471
We could make an Avatar for ourselves that looks like our original self, and keep the Behemoth-looking body somewhere safe. ( >>58020 )
>>
No. 76475 ID: 3dd384

>>76473
Actually, the titan hierarchy infodump reminded me of something.

Saulanna has Charms to move stuff to and from her Inner World. The main obstacle to bringing people in is that there's no air in there yet. But externalizing? Not sure we can't do that already.

And, well, okay. Saulanna-as-Titan just grew a foot or two and got horns, which would probably be seen by Lunars as an early warning sign of chimerism. But Saulanna-as-Queen is still very human indeed. What if we ate some books about disguise, pulled internal-Saulanna out into the "real world", and trussed her up to look like a Lunar? Upside: we don't have to somehow explain away external-Saulanna's new look. Downside: internal-Saulanna is not a Lunar, so if anyone tries to get us to prove that we're really Saulanna, things could get ugly fast. Unknowns: internal-Saulanna might not actually have any supernatural abilities yet, and we don't know how complicated it'd be to pass abilities from moonpower and devas to her, as compared to passing them to Saulanna-the-Titan.

Ancillary idea: as soon as we figure out how to get Captured Forms of something without killing it, let's capture internal-Saulanna's form. That'd sidestep this whole issue.
>>
No. 76476 ID: 3dd384

What if we already have our devas as Captured Forms, and we just don't know it because we've never tried?
>>
No. 76497 ID: aef4c1

>>76476
Good idea!

>Bringing people inside us
Wordblood has the Breath of Life ability now, so there should be no air problems. My biggest concern in the area is that we might run out of Moon Power if we do it to much - like, does bringing in a pile of 15 books counts as one use of our Inner Den ability - or fifteen uses?
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No. 76499 ID: 615e82

>>76475
>Ancillary idea: as soon as we figure out how to get Captured Forms of something without killing it, let's capture internal-Saulanna's form. That'd sidestep this whole issue.

There are only two canonical Lunar knacks for taking someone's form without killing them: Life of the Hummingbird requires a lesser taste of blood but lasts no more than a day, and Courtesan's Possession involves having sex with the target.
>>
No. 76500 ID: 2860b1

>>76499
Time for some good old-fashioned selfcest, then.
>>
No. 76578 ID: cee89f

So I was imagining what it would be like if we fought while in each of their forms, and in the course of that:

"KNEEL before Wordblood!"

...Granted, Power Word: Kneel would be very limited in utility, but I imagine by the time Wordblood gets to the size in my head (roughly twelve stories) the cost won't matter anymore.

>>76475
Wordblood gave us a definite 'no' on that right before we made Kairosa, iirc. I think he said his spirit was too weak for him to do anything outside of the world-body that would make manifesting him actually worth it or something? need to check...
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No. 76812 ID: fbd09f

Looking at Saulana at the end of the interlude ...Is that a Full Moon or a No Moon mark on her forehead?
>>
No. 76922 ID: 5d121c

>>76812
probably neither

its whatever shape the moon is at the time
>>
No. 76923 ID: c83d10

>>76812
Full Moon. Jukashi's using the misprint version of the caste marks.

Also, the first thread had the Full Moon Anima bonus, and not enough time has passed for the moon to change to the No Moon phase.
>>
No. 77896 ID: 0ca976

>>76476
I like this idea.

Also, I wonder. If we need to, how likely is it we can get away from the Lunars if it comes to a fight?

We could temporarily ally with that other death knight chick, probably.
>>
No. 77911 ID: aef4c1

>>77896
I would say it's not likely to work in the long run, given that the Moon Heroes have a) Garmir's expert tracking abilities and b) Askalaff's speedy relocation method. Garmir has our scent now, and his SCHNOZZLEPOINTS must be at astronomical levels ;)
In the short run, though, yeah we could probably do it. If nothing else, we can have Peregrin and Akatrina shadow-walk us away in tandem, giving us a lead, then run away quickly - maybe pouncing on a bird on the way so we can transform and fly.
That way, we could probably get to the Underworld and hide out there, if we find it preferable. The rest of the world... not likely. (Not that we can get to the rest of the world until the sun rises.)

Personally, though, I'd prefer the Moon Heroes over the Underworld (though IMO the best would be to stay near the castle until we've munched our way through its library).
Moon Hero boot camp seems like a fairly low-risk activity; an opportunity to gain TW and experience before we brave the unknown dangers of the Underworld. ...Assuming, of course, that we aren't exposed as a Titan prematurely.
>>
No. 78433 ID: aef4c1

Hey, I just thought of a cool Element for our hypothetical future Stealth Soul: Heroism.

Pros:
*It'd be effective at disguising Titanic doings as heroic abilities - and due to its element, it might be especially effective when deceiving heroes.
*Heroism is an cool element to have in our over-arching Titanic themes, influencing the possible abilities of our Devas.
*It'd be a positive influence on Saulanna's personality, keeping us from becoming too Titanic, too fast.
*As an active, dynamic Element, it'd compensate for the rather passive Stealth Purpose, making for an interesting Deva.
*It would be able to come up with advice and insights into heroes we meet.
*It could help us understand and interact with the Hero Soul.
*It'd likely provide a Titanic Boost for doing Heroic things; a valuable combat advantage to have at an early stage.

Cons:
*Once the jig is up and our Titanic nature is known, Heroism probably won't be as effective at hiding us as other Elements would be - after all, heroes are by nature noticeable.
*Entities which exert influence over heroes, such as the Incarnae, might be able to influence us - and they might in turn be wary about us influencing their heroes. Conversely, some of our fellow Titans might not like Heroes very much...
>>
No. 78544 ID: cee89f

>>78433
It's an interesting idea but it poses a lot of problems, imho.

Our Hero soul is acting like a deva. Its exact Purpose and Element are unclear, but Heroism is one of its suggested potential elements. There's potential conflict there. Even if the exact element/purpose isn't heroism, the similarity could pose a problem. And if the element ISN'T heroism, it's doubtful that a stealth soul would be able to help us understand the hero's soul any more than Kairosa did.

Moreover, we asked Wordblood about Heroism before. He thought a Heroism deva would be unlikely to sit still and be very difficult to control. That is a VERY bad thing when you want to hide and/or be stealthy.

...I was about to say 'heroes are flashy' but you said that already =(

>As an active, dynamic Element, it'd compensate for the rather passive Stealth Purpose, making for an interesting Deva.
I'm not so sure how 'passive' stealth is as an element. Like... part of what it does is hide away what we're doing, which would require some active management? I dunno, this one bugs me and I can't quite articulate why.

>It'd likely provide a Titanic Boost for doing Heroic things; a valuable combat advantage to have at an early stage.
Don't we already have one of those?

Heroism is a really good element and an interesting one but - imho - we shouldn't use it for the stealth soul.
>>
No. 78550 ID: aef4c1

>>78544
>Don't we already have one of those?
We have a Moon Boost, yes, but that's applicable to everything we do. With a complementary Titanic Boost, we could probably DOUBLE BOOST for massive damage.
(I bet we can double-boost things as is, for example moon-boosting Inspiration while at the same time titan-boosting Language. Could be useful against the Moon Heroes.)

>A Heroism Deva would be difficult to control.
Well, that advice was primarily for a Feeding Deva. Kairosa is rambunctious as it is; A Heroism Feeder would probably be urging us to nom Garmir for extra energy...
Since much of Stealth is keeping to the shadows and being quiet, and a Stealth Deva would naturally have some inclination towards that, I figure a Stealth Purpose would make for possibly the least annoying Heroism Deva we could have, apart from maybe a Seeing Soul.

>Heroism is good, but not for a Stealth Soul
Assuming we are getting a Heroism Soul at all - and that we're getting it early on, while its advice and Titan Boost would be useful - a Stealth Soul seems like a decent choice. What Purpose would you pick for a Heroism Soul?

>We want to hide and/or be stealthy.
We're naturally good at that already. From what I gather, the main reason we want a Stealth/Hiding/Camouflage soul is so we can pass as a mortal for as long as possible; actual pass-unseen skills are secondary to the main goal - that of not being a 100 meter long raccoon-dragon by the time we reach our seventh Deva.

>Conflict with Hero Soul
Eh, I figure it'll adapt to fit into what niche is available. If anything, picking off an obvious choice like Stealth+Heroism makes for a more interesting Deva in the end.
Anyway, it's not like we're getting a Stealth soul right this moment - by the time we are, our Hero Soul might already have Deva-ified. (And then we really REALLY need a Stealth Soul, before Luna can get a good look at us.)

And as a bonus, our Hero Soul wants us to be more heroic before we get goodies, right? Having a Heroism Soul would accomplish that by default :)
>>
No. 78568 ID: cee89f

>>78550
>We have a...against the Moon Heroes.)
I think Wordblood kinda implied that Titan and Moon boosts don't stack when we were discussing what the titan's boosts can do?
>"Hmm. But aside that last function, neither of our Boosts do anything the Moon Boost doesn't incorporate already, and they only give bonuses equal to our soul forces."

>Well, that advice was primarily for a Feeding Deva...Heroism Deva we could have, apart from maybe a Seeing Soul.
The advice still applies here, since it's also a relatively passive purpose and Saulanna is still relatively weak as a titan right now.

>Assuming we are getting a Heroism Soul at all - and that we're getting it early on, while its advice and Titan Boost would be useful - a Stealth Soul seems like a decent choice. What Purpose would you pick for a Heroism Soul?

Either a social or defensive purpose. The former to inspire heroism in others, the latter to balance out its strength and inability to control itself with a desire to protect and serve. Similar to how there was an earlier discussion of a War/Defense deva?

>If anything, picking off an obvious choice like Stealth+Heroism-
...How is that 'obvious'? Stealth+Shadows is obvious. Stealth+Silence is obvious. Stealth+thing-that's-not-stealthy-at-all?

>-makes for a more interesting Deva in the end.
It would also be interesting to have a Celibacy element with a Reproduction purpose. 'More interesting' is not a good argument :P

>And as a bonus, our Hero Soul wants us to be more heroic before we get goodies, right? Having a Heroism Soul would accomplish that by default :)
It wants us to be more like the Lunar Hero ideal. Part of that is doing it ourselves :P if we were gonna try and get Lunar goodies with TW we should've just done it.
>>
No. 78643 ID: 5d121c

>>78568
>The advice still applies here, since it's also a relatively passive purpose and Saulanna is still relatively weak as a titan right now.

i disagree

we dont want a feeding deva to go crazy and eat everything, but we do want a stealth deva to be intense about being stealthy
>>
No. 78686 ID: cee89f

>>78643
Okay, fair point, the heroic feeding soul would have been worse. But we still don't want an uncontrollable deva while we're this weak.
>>
No. 78689 ID: 5d121c

>>78686
it would have a lot of initiative, but a stealth purpose wouldnt really be conductive to uncontrollability

what would it do exactly, hide from us when we want to see it? hide us when we dont want to hide? even if those happened (which seems silly as a deva like that should be capable of appreciating what stealth is good for) we could fix it easily enough
>>
No. 78691 ID: cee89f

>>78689
>what would it do exactly, hide from us when we want to see it? hide us when we dont want to hide?

I don't know, how would heroism (something that basically thrives on being big, in your face and noticeable) work for stealth in the first place? =P Feels like making a Healing/Death deva.

The implication I got from Wordblood's description of the Heroic element deva was that 'uncontrollable' was a part of the heroic element itself, not just in combination with feeding. This would be an acceptable risk either later in our titanic development when we have more devas and our position as Queen is more secure, or if the Heroic element were being put towards a very useful purpose. Thing is, most arguments I've seen here for a Heroic Stealth are short-term. We wanna communicate with the hero soul, we want to hide from heroes, etc etc. A heroism/stealth soul is only going to be useful in its direct purpose for so long.

>even if those happened (which seems silly as a deva like that should be capable of appreciating what stealth is good for) we could fix it easily enough

Not really, it's been implied that Saulanna isn't going to be willing to alter her devas like that and it's been outright stated that changes in purpose or shifts in element are extremely rare.

>100 meter long raccoon-dragon by the time we reach our seventh Deva.
.........
FUND IT
>>
No. 78692 ID: 5d121c

>>78691
>(something that basically thrives on being big, in your face and noticeable)
heroism is, at its core, not about being noticable, it is about bravery and doing the right thing, those can easily be accomplished from the sidelines

and i dont see why you are afraid of our position in the hierarchy of devas, as i understand it no matter how uncontrollable and independent a deva might be they would still defer to us, just go behind our back and do things they thing are for our collective good

>Saulanna isn't going to be willing to alter her devas
there are ways to get around that, for example it has been suggested many times that a healing soul of rebirth would directly counterbalance kairosa's "eat everything" mentality

it wouldnt stop kairosa, she could still eat everything in the end, but there would always be things healed and born again
>>
No. 78694 ID: cee89f

>>78692
>heroism is, at its core, not about being noticable, it is about bravery and doing the right thing, those can easily be accomplished from the sidelines
In our world, sure, but in Exalted even the stealthy heroes do ludicrous, showy things. Saulanna - supposedly a mind/stealth hero - has beat both of her foes so far by turning into a massive were-raccoon and punching them in the face... although admittedly she then ate one of them and turned the other into her servant.

If we instead define heroism by our world's standards (short version: do the right thing) it isn't always possible to be a hero, and at those times the Deva would have difficulty doing anything to help us (see Wordblood's comments on a Love deva)

>and i dont see why you are afraid of our position in the hierarchy of devas, as i understand it no matter how uncontrollable and independent a deva might be they would still defer to us, just go behind our back and do things they thing are for our collective good
First of all, going behind our back would be a bad thing for Saulanna's position as Queen, especially when we're in a scenario where it's not always possible to do something ethically pleasing. Ya think it would've been happy that we've eaten 5 souls?

Second, Saulanna has no power as a deva yet. We should probably at least get her casting spells before we take the risk that she could lose her position and main reason for being IN the titan.

Third, I'm not really afraid of it persay (the idea of a former Queen soul trying to regain her glory in the soul hierarchy through application of sheer willpower sounds interesting and challenging.) I'm listing it as a risk because it's been stated outright that a Queen can lose her position.

On top of that, I'm not seeing any real reward/benefit that would make the risk and potential problems worth it. We went with time for Kairosa because the benefit of the power of time, the ability to manipulate generation and refund purchases, and the potential to deal with our soulfire outweighed the risk of her wiping us out of existence through some cosmic causality loophole. Here... the only benefits I'm seeing (that we couldn't get by putting it in a different purpose) would be completely lost very quickly. Ya know?

>there are ways to get around that, for example it has been suggested many times that a healing soul of rebirth would directly counterbalance kairosa's "eat everything" mentality
>it wouldnt stop kairosa, she could still eat everything in the end, but there would always be things healed and born again
How exactly do you counteract uncontrollable heroism? Cowardice? Fear? Prudence, maybe. What purpose would you give a Prudence deva?

... How about a stealth/love deva?... no, that's stupid...
>>
No. 78696 ID: acfd7c

>>78692
>heroism is, at its core, not about being noticable, it is about bravery and doing the right thing, those can easily be accomplished from the sidelines

That's a modern definition of heroism.

Lunar Quest, as with the original Exalted game, uses an older definition of what a hero is, from ancient mythology. As such, you should think of personalities like Gilgamesh, Heracles, Cuchulainn, Susano-o and so on. Bravery is certainly a common trait, in fact often rather too much so, but "doing the right thing" is not. The primary quality of this kind of Hero is that they are larger than life, a giant among mankind, who performs great - and quite possibly terrible - deeds. A Hero is not merely part of the world; they are someone who has both the power and the will to change it. Generally speaking, they will attract the attention of the gods and of destiny, and leave a legend to spread in their wake. They are not necessarily nice or good; only great.
>>
No. 78702 ID: 12b706

We may think of sneaking around as cowardly compared to a frontal attack, but stealth is brave, in its own way. It is very dangerous to sneak through a villain's fortress, knowing that a single wrong move could lead to you getting spotted and swarmed by dozens of guards.

A Stealth/Heroism would impel us to take such a risk anytime there is even remotely something to be gained by it (whether "gained" means doing something morally right, in line with the modern meaning of "heroism", or just something that helps us personally). It would try to sneak into the fortress without being noticed, yes, but it wouldn't be happy with avoiding notice by not going anywhere near the fortress in the first place.
>>
No. 78704 ID: c841ea

>>78696
If you think about it, they weren't that brave either.

Woo, demigod fights terrible monster that would lay waste to a village but poses no threat to him personally.

When something was a threat, they usually sneaked about and outwitted it instead of fighting it head on
>>
No. 78705 ID: cee89f

>>78704
Er, I thought the point of those stories was that nothing SHORT of whatever they were fighting was a threat to them. Like, Beowulf died fighting a dragon because he wouldn't even break a sweat fighting, say, a nobleman with a rapier. Heracles fought the Nemean lion because a few bandits and/or a regular lion wouldn't have been a challenge for him.

....Also to "purify his sin" and become a god, but that's getting off track.

>>78696
So... judging by this definition, a Heroism soul would probably be a being that performed larger-than-life feats with its powers, meaning it would be good for most purposes... but we're a titan AND a moon hero, we do that anyway.

I'd still prefer a social purpose for Heroism. Inspire heroism in others, ya know?...I'm too sleepy to make sense, gnight.
>>
No. 78706 ID: 5d121c

>>78705
>>78704
they werent really brave because it wasnt necessary to heroism in that definition, at that point heroism is defined as just "protagonist of a wild tale" as i (possibly badly) remember it from lit class
>>
No. 78709 ID: aef4c1

>>78568
>Implications that Boosts don't stack
Good point. If Moon and Titan Boosts are mutually exclusive, Titan Boosts will be nearly useless until we reach SF 4 and above. We should ask WB for clarification, later.

>Social/Defensive purpose for Heroism Soul
Mmmyeah, actually I can see "Defensive" working out well - especially since Heroes are the main threat to us, and a Defense+Heroism Soul might be particularly good at defending against those. A Social Deva might make Wordblood feel a bit insecure, though.

>How is Stealth+Heroism obvious?
I was referring to an obvious Purpose+Element for the Hero Soul. Ours leans towards the stealthy kind of hero, so Stealth+Heroism is a definite possibility there. However, I think Heroism is a bit generic for a Hero Soul - it just seems more fun if Moon Hero Souls have inherently different Elements from Sun Hero Souls; Adaptation/Nature/Trickery as opposed to Perfection/Glory/Light. I'm rooting for a Muse of Adaptation, myself; a Deva focused on endowing other people - and us - with cool abilities.

>Stealthiness of heroes
I agree that Heroes are not the stealthiest. Oh, they can be plenty stealthy on the LOCAL level, in a "This castle has a hundred elite guards in it - how can she keep hidden?!" way - but on a global level, it's more like: "Yup, there's a Hero in there - I can tell from some of the dead guards and from seeing quite a few burning castles in my time."
My main argument is that a Stealth+Heroism Deva would be ideally geared for obscuring our Titanhood, as opposed to our body or location - thus making sure nobody sounds the OMGTITAN! alarm while we're still weak and mostly defenseless.

>We don't want an uncontrollable deva while we're this weak
Oh, I personally advocate not budding another Deva until we've raised Saulanna's SF to 5, learned a bit of sorcery, and are set to raise our SF again. But after that's done, getting a Stealth-type Deva seems like the thing to do.
>>
No. 78729 ID: 082866

I'd say a Stealth Heroism deva would be something like Batman - someone who uses stealth, sure, and is really good at it, but ultimately does so to create this big imposing legend that everyone talks about. not exactly what we're going for.

Or maybe that'd be a Heroism purpose and a Stealth element? And Stealth purpose with Heroism element would be, like... making something big and heroic happens so as to distract from something you want to be hidden.

Or maybe it would be too close to the Hero Soul, and get absorbed by it.
>>
No. 78731 ID: 5d121c

>>78729
>Or maybe that'd be a Heroism purpose and a Stealth element?
yeah

>Or maybe it would be too close to the Hero Soul, and get absorbed by it.
nah
>>
No. 78733 ID: cee89f

>>78729
>>78691
>>78689
>100 meter long raccoon-dragon by the time we reach our seventh Deva.
>Batman
>100 meter long ninja-raccoon-dragon with billions of awesome gadgets for every situation and a secret identity that somehow stays secret despite how incredibly obvious it should be. Also, time travel

.... Can I say 'yes' loudly enough? O_O
>>
No. 78748 ID: aef4c1

On another controversial topic, I've given some thought to this old suggestion,
>>75058
and I think there might be some merit to it - though as a Purpose, rather than an Element.

Saulanna COULD arguably fit as a Learning/Experiencing Deva.
As a human she has the astounding ability to improve without *gasp* spending TW. Additionally, her high SAVVY means she is exceptional at it even for a human. A specialized Deva of Learning/Experiencing could very well be one of the few Devas able to match humans at this endeavor; by this measure, it's the closest thing a Titanic being can be to a human, and thus it makes sense that a human - and Saulanna in particular - would become this kind of Deva.
Also, Saulanna already has a great number of abilities focused on gathering information, and two abilities that improve her Competencies.
This Purpose also fits well with our Devas: Power-gain over time (Kairosa), Understanding others (Wordblood), Adapting to one's environment (Hero Soul) .
Finally, "gaining power" is so far the closest thing to motivation we have, and Learning/Experiencing is thematically close enough to this that I think we can swing it as a substitute for Growth.

Pros:
*Learning is more harmless and acceptable than Growth. While a Purpose of Growth would dispose us towards going to the DS for quick power gains - or engaging in uninhibited Soulnomming - a purpose of Learning would make us lean towards staying in the castle or following the Moon Heroes, because this way, we would have unique experiences which would be hard to have when we're older and more obviously Titanic.
*Learning works well as a temporary Purpose; when we've learned enough about the world, we'll naturally be able to make an informed decision as to our new Purpose. Additionally, this would probably happen sooner than for a pure Growth purpose, which might not be sated until we've reached SF 15.
*With this Purpose, Saulanna might eventually be able to gain straight-out Power Copying, Ditto Fighting or Mega-Manning abilities.
*She would also get Titanic abilities related to investigating things.
*Assuming a Will Element, Saulanna might have an easier time gaining Power Words / Sorcery, possibly getting Sorcery as early as SF 4.
*We might also have a bonus towards gaining XP.
*Maybe with this Deva, we can gain competencies higher than "Master" level...
*Seeing that we already lack a Fate and can administer binding Oaths, gaining Power Copying as well will take us one step further to successfully cosplaying as Akatrina (or someone of her Caste).

Cons:
*Our nomming abilities and high SAVVY are already geared towards gaining skills quickly, so this gives us nothing vital in the short term.
*In the long term, conversely, it's a bit powergame-y.
*This could effectively be a DOWNGRADE, if it turns out to give us the mental flexibility of a human retroactively - then we might lose that flexibility when/if we change our Purpose in the future.
>>
No. 78758 ID: 5d121c

>>78748
i like it
>>
No. 78764 ID: 7b3268

...I can't help but think a Learning Purpose could get...Bad.
Like I'm imagining Mad Scientist Devas coming off of that, if not making Saulanna like that a bit.
"What will happen if I poke you with this spear? OH! You Bleed."
But that's probably unlikely. Miiight have issues with WordBlood as well...
>>
No. 78771 ID: cee89f

>Learning purpose
Wouldn't that just be 'Knowledge'?
>>
No. 78805 ID: aef4c1

>>78771
Knowledge seems kinda Element-y to me, but as a Purpose, I'd distinguish them by saying that a Knowledge Purpose would be about gathering, sorting and utilizing Knowledge, while a Learning Purpose would be about changing, improving, and refining oneself; they're similar, but the focus is different.

I figure a Growth Purpose - which we're currently heading towards - would be similar to Learning, but with an emphasis on gaining raw Power; more TW, more Devas, more Abilities. Which is cool and all, y'know, but I think it'd have long-term negative effects on Saulanna's personality and the kind of Titan she'd develop into.

Hm, another benign Purpose similar to Growth would be Cultivation; it'd make us good at improving ourselves AND others. But to qualify for that, we should spend more time and TW on improving others. Also, it's another possible cool Purpose the Hero Soul could end up with.
>>
No. 78880 ID: 5d121c

>>78771
>>78805
knowledge is also much closer to wordblood and he might be defensive about it
>>
No. 78883 ID: aef4c1

Hm... We know there's conflict between similar Purposes, and between similar Elements, but we don't know what happens if a Purpose is similar to an Element. Maybe there wouldn't be a problem?
>>
No. 78906 ID: c841ea

>>78748
>*Assuming a Will Element, Saulanna might have an easier time gaining Power Words / Sorcery, possibly getting Sorcery as early as SF 4.
Unrealistic assumption, will element has been discussed before. Technically nothing is impossible but we are a very long way away from being able to do something this crazy. In addition tho that, it feels very wrong and threatens Saulana's position as queen

>>78764
None of them seem bad to me
>>
No. 78907 ID: c841ea

>>78748
>*In the long term, conversely, it's a bit powergame-y.
It is an in character choice though. That is, the character is deciding to pursue a source of power according to their knowledge of the world, rather then the players deciding the character will do something they shouldn't know about or be out of character.

Furthermore, it is in character for her since we established her background as a cross between a bookworm librarian and indiana jones. Stealing ancient tomes in search of knowledge.
>>
No. 78916 ID: cee89f

>>78906
>it feels very wrong and threatens Saulana's position as queen
...What does? Saulanna being a Will deva? >_> Gonna have to explain that one. Making ANOTHER deva a will deva would threaten her position but I don't see how making Saulanna Will would hurt anything.
>>
No. 78934 ID: 5d121c

>>78916
will indeed seems very appropriate for saulanna

and wordblood said that it was kind of odd, not that there was anything catastrophically wrong with it as an element
>>
No. 78936 ID: c841ea

>>78916
>...What does?
making a will element deva, we discussed this already.
Saulanna said it feels wrong to her.
And WB said its too recursive, it will possibly be the most powerful deva possible but we can't even begin to imagine how to do something so ridiculous in our current power level.
Also he was concerned about the natural order of things, specifically saulanna being in charge.

>>78916
>Making ANOTHER deva a will deva
Was that not explicitly what was being discussed?
>>
No. 78939 ID: cee89f

>>78934
He specifically said that making a Will-element deva '[has] a recursive absurdity to it, like trying to make a tree out of a table' or something to that effect, i believe. The rest, however, implied that Will would be a great element and incredibly powerful.

In fact, the possibility was brought up earlier that Saulanna's element will end up being Will basically since she was, for all intents and purposes, nothing but a human soul (which Wordblood described as basically Will given shape) when we started this quest.

... it was more thoroughly explained earlier. Short of it is, Saulanna becoming Will would not hurt her position. In fact it would probably help it.

>>78936
>Was that not explicitly what was being discussed?
Well, no. He was discussing the possibility of Saulanna becoming a Will Deva with a Learning/Experiencing purpose. See here:
>>78748
>Saulanna COULD arguably fit as a Learning/Experiencing Deva.

Hardly 'explicitly' about making a separate deva.
>>
No. 78950 ID: b56ea6

>In fact, the possibility was brought up earlier that Saulanna's element will end up being Will basically since she was, for all intents and purposes, nothing but a human soul (which Wordblood described as basically Will given shape) when we started this quest.

I was, I believe, the first to comment on her being a Will Deva, so I'm just gonna go ahead and say I think the idea that Saulanna doesn't already have an element to be a bit absurd. She might not have a purpose, but an Element is what she's made of and is. Her element might not be Will, it might even be some sort of messy combination of things(Wordblood did say every Titan's nature is unique), but I think the idea of her not having any Element is silly.
>>
No. 78956 ID: cee89f

>>78950
To be fair, titans are a bit silly to begin with, and Wordblood has stated previously that changing one's element is a lot like becoming a new person entirely. So it's plausible that Saulanna will change into a more titanic form when she discovers an element, and that this body doesn't have one.

Personally I find that idea a lot less cool and much less likely than the idea that she's already a Will deva, but it's possible.

Also, the first instance I can find mention of Saulanna being a will deva is here:
>>71059
in the spoiler box
>>
No. 78987 ID: 5d121c

>>78950
Saulanna is unformed and powerless, an almost blank slate as both a human soul and especially as a deva. Her not having a defined element yet doesn't seem that absurd to me.
>>
No. 79019 ID: cee89f

>>78987
It's possible, i suppose. But the way Wordblood speaks of both elements and the journey to finding Saulanna's element strike me more as a journey of discovery. IE, she already has an element, we just don't know what it is yet.

>Unformed
>Powerless
No and no. She was unformed and powerless when Luna showed up. Now, Saulanna's got enough of a personality to sass her own suggesters, the powers of a moon hero, and enough titanic power that it has physically altered her appearance.

On titanic appearance, specifically unified themes: the way it was described, things that are symbolically important to us (shadows and darkness for DS, dragons for Gaia, etc) will influence how all our devas look. So if we analyze our devas' forms, we could potentially get a hint at what our overarching titan form will be like.

Looking between our three devas (aside from the hero's soul and greenie) all three of them have particularly massive hair/manes and communicate their identity very clearly and openly in their appearance. (Wordblood's thoughts on his scales, Saulanna's human clothes, Kairosa's general personality and/or starfield)... and that's all I can think of at this exact moment that they all have in common. Thoughts?

(also, might've mentioned this earlier, but does Kairosa's mask look like Kamina's sunglasses to anyone else?)
>>
No. 79029 ID: 5d121c

>>79019
I'm talking about Saulanna the deva, not the entire composite being. The moon hero soul has nothing to do with deva-Saulanna's element. She's still pretty much a blank slate. There may be traces of a personality growing, like the moment she didn't want to hurt Kairosa's feelings with that question. But she definitely is completely powerless. She can't do anything directly, without the intervention of one of the other devas, except move her physical body... which isn't exactly the body of deva-Saulanna anyway. It's the body of Saulanna.
>>
No. 79030 ID: cee89f

>>79029
Fair enough on the titanic powers, but Saulanna the Deva was gaining moon hero powers. Otherwise, why would she gain them from upping her own soul force? She didn't upgrade the Hero's soul, she upgraded Saulanna the deva.

I get the main thrust of your argument: Saulanna isn't a full-fledged deva yet, and I agree. But the idea that she's a completely blank slate simply isn't the case anymore.

I'm more of a fan of the idea that Saulanna already has her element and purpose, she just doesn't know them yet and thus can't utilize either to their fullest extent.
>>
No. 79032 ID: 34b2f2

If you approach things from a more narratively aware perspective, she can be both a blank slate and already have her element and purpose. Pretty sure she can have unformed potential that, once cemented, becomes true retroactively for her whole history. Because titans.
>>
No. 79033 ID: 74c4ad

>>79032
...especially since we made one of the other devas, well, time. Causality certainly has room to get complicated if it wants to.
>>
No. 79037 ID: 34b2f2

Maybe a clearer way to explain my thoughts would be this. Saulanna is a deva and devas have each an element and purpose, so it's a fair bet she does as well. That's just how deva work. But that part of the story isn't written yet and that's significant both to us out of the quest and the characters in it, by the rules the setting runs on.

Okay I'm pretty sure that was not at all clearer communication. Ah well.
>>
No. 79124 ID: a87e3a

>>79037
Saulanna does have an element and purpose, though- at one point in the last thread we were cued to try to guess it. Her element is almost certainly Will, and her purpose we still have to guess correctly.
>>
No. 79127 ID: b56ea6

I'm not entirely certain her Element is Will. Wordblood said elements that are too similar devour one another too. I think hers is just so similar that she couldn't exist alongside a Will Deva. I think the three biggest chances for what her element might actually be, assuming she doesn't have some muddled non-element element, are Humanity, Souls, or Will. Given what Wordblood said about Souls basically being bade of Titan's Will, and all of humanity basically being defined by their Souls, I'd say that Will might be close enough to the two others to devour each other or at least be threatened by Will.
>>
No. 79138 ID: cee89f

>>79127
A perfectly valid idea, though personally I think Saulanna's element is will for several reasons.
1) See Wordblood/Saulanna's reaction to 'Will'. Obvious Chekov's gun is obvious.
2) When Wordblood discussed the problem with a 'soul' element, he described it as bits of titanic will fashioned to a purpose. We find out from Kairosa that whatever Peregrin did to us cleaned our metaphycial clock (no pun intended) and made us into an almost completely blank slate before attaching Wordblood. This, to me, implies Saulanna was broken down into nothing but the Titanic Will that formed her, meaning her soul was Will incarnate for a brief bit.
3) Her will is growing stronger, just like how Wordblood's form is growing bigger, stronger and brighter. As the quest has progressed, Saulanna's character has not only become more developed, but also more willfull. At first she responded pretty much 100% to what we said, sometimes directly quoting us. She froze up when we (i keep saying 'we' even though I wasn't here for chapter 1 >.>) got split in our decision. In chapter 2, she still occasionally quotes us, but she also starts speaking and acting on her own, albeit still with our guidance. In Internal Phase, she's got enough will and personality to tell us off for hypocrisy.
4) Wordblood said that creating a Will soul would have a recursive absurdity to it, but in the same paragraph says he thinks Oramus has one. Implying that Will devas are not made, but grown.
5) Saulanna's objection to Will is based partly on the idea that it's insulting because it implies she's deficient in Will herself. Wordblood had a similar reaction when we were discussing feeding souls that could also act as social devas (albeit in a different manner): he felt it implied he was deficient and useless in social scenarios. Granted, we never thought that, but it was the impression he got.
>>
No. 79144 ID: 3dd384

>>79138
>Wordblood said that creating a Will soul would have a recursive absurdity to it, but in the same paragraph says he thinks Oramus has one.
Oramus is all about recursive self-contradictory absurdity, though. Having it be something the Crazy Uncle did isn't exactly an endorsement.
>>
No. 79147 ID: cee89f

>>79144
No but it DOES prove that it's possible for one to exist, which was sort of the point.
>>
No. 79193 ID: aef4c1

I made up some more prospective abilities, for fun:

Sense the Distant Self (Wordblood)
Wordblood gets the ability to detect and communicate with pieces of writing across a distance, even through walls. This is not comprehension, but rather dialogue - he asks questions and gets brief answers. 'Reading' a book this way is roughly five times slower than normal reading speed.
[To hidden Moon Hero Tattoos] "Dictate your content to me."
[To Library] "Which texts inside you contain detailed information about Queen Marela?"
[To Law Book] "What legal loopholes are relevant to [situation]?"
[To maker's signature on an assassin's blade] "Keep me posted on your location."
Upgrade: Increased range, Change text at a distance, track conversations.

Two Heads Eat Better Than One (Woordblood)
Wordblood Aids Kairosa in devouring a particularly big soul, giving an efficiency bonus.

*Gate to the Beyond (Hero Soul/Kairosa/Wordblood, building on Metasmosis)
Saulanna opens a temporary gate to her Inner World, letting her move large quantities of stuff in or out of it for a fixed Moon Power cost. The gate lasts a minute, but since we can affect time flow in our inner world, that's still enough for someone to make a month-long visit and exit again.

*Multi-user Headspace / Sharing the Inner Den (Peregrin +Will/Hero Soul?)
Saulanna endows Peregrin with the ability to access an area of our Inner World, effectively giving him the Inner Den ability, with the advantages that a) we can access any stuff he stores, b) he can bring out any of our stuff we let him access, and c) using Peregrin as a proxy, we can use our Inner-Den-based abilities, such as Gate to the Beyond, near Peregrin.

------------

Also, the following are the kinds of abilities I'm hoping for from a Stealth Deva; not so much stealth as obscurity and mystery:

Mild-Mannered Mortal Impersonation (Stealth Deva)
To a superficial scan, Saulanna's SF seems to be a mediocre "3", with Will to match. (Will loss in social combat is kept proportional.) May limit benefits from high SF.

Secret Identity Form (Stealth Deva)
By committing (an increasing number of) motes, Saulanna keeps her Titanic body human-scaled and -shaped.
Upgrades: Covers up any Titanic "signature" or aura, making any divination attempts harder.

You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Angry (Stealth Deva)
Spending a TP, Saulanna temporarily suspends her Mild-Mannered Mortal Impersonation and Secret Identity Form techniques, growing to her full size and strength. As this ability expires, MMMI and SIF naturally reassert themselves without any required TP expenditure.

Mysterious Timey-wimey Ball (Stealth Deva)
Kairosa's TW gathering (and Reconstitution ability) is made much more obscure and hard to detect/trace. This may decrease the gathering speed.

Look, No Devas Up My Sleeve (Stealth Deva)
By paying twice the usual TP cost when performing a Titanic ability, it gains the look and feel of a Moon Ability, throwing off titan-detecting abilities active in the vicinity.
>>
No. 79196 ID: cee89f

*snrk* I just had this mental image of Kairosa's meal getting away from her (cuz it's a solar or something), and she gets ultra cranky like how some people do when they haven't eaten in a while.

>>79193
Some of my ideas, with varying validity (started out as 'come up with one idea for each deva, no matter how stupid or implausible and see what the others think')

Time Lord Victorious
For all current Moon and Titan Power, Kairosa is automatically successful on one action, regardless of possibility. This ability may only be used once per season, or once during Calibration.

Book Burning
("He who destroys a good book kills reason itself")
Wordblood causes the understanding of a target to burn to ashes, turning all of its knowledge into meaningless jibberish. (Think what he did to Saulanna in ch1) Any severe physical harm will end the power early.

Mask in the Mist
Saulanna gains the ability to freely move through Wordblood's mist, allowing her to pass through solid objects or even just change position. Saulanna cannot be harmed while under this effect. Leaving the mist will end the effect, as will any attempt to harm another.

My Stomach Rumbles
Kairosa can gain TW from the elements of her fellow devas at 1/2 her usual rate. (IE, she could eat a particularly great work of literature and get 1/2 of what she would get from eating it if she were a Word element... but that could still end up being higher than Wu-blu since she's a feeding soul)

Blood of the Heart
Less of an ability, more of an idea. We have a Time Deva, a Deva with strong ties to blood, and a Moon Hero soul. All of these things would react well to gaining lunar forms through heart's blood (Kairosa cuz it's eating, Wordblood because blood, Moon soul because Lunar thing, etc) So could we use this to gain TW if we spent a MP or TP to do it?

Peek into the Void
Kairosa allows others to gain a brief glimpse of the future, while Wordblood allows them to understand and process it.

I can't stand all this waiting!
Kairosa accelerates one's perception of time, fraying their patience to the breaking point.

Storytime
Wordblood tells a listener a story. While doing so, the listener's blood responds to Wordblood's voice, allowing them to heal more quickly. If the story is interrupted, it can't be continued.
>>
No. 79479 ID: c841ea

Isn't making saulanna's element will a bit too chosen1?
None of the other titans have such an awesome element.

... the argument about human souls being made out of will and existing for the soul purpose of generating more of it for the titans to harvest does lend credence to the idea.
But didn't we get told already that human souls are not actually made of will in of itself (or rather, they are made of will the same way everything else is). And that when we eat a soul what we are actually doing is consuming it to generate titan will, not harvesting the titan will that it is made out of, because its not actually made out of raw titan will
>>
No. 79488 ID: aef4c1

>>79479
One of Oramus' Devas has a Will Element, or so Wordblood thinks, so it's not entirely unprecedented.

>Souls are not made of TW
I was under the impression that consuming a soul was much like taking a knit sweater and unraveling it to get a ball of yarn.
Let's see if I can find something to quote...
Hmmm, in this post:
>>/questarch/195616
Wordblood says:
"Souls - the essential core of all beings that think and dream and want, whether independent of a Titan or not - are fragments of Titanic Will;"

Though admittedly, in this post in the latest quest thread:
>>/questarch/480546
Kairosa says:
"... You know, a lot of the Titan's Will you get from a soul is from sucking the aether out of it."
...which sort of goes against the earlier statement.
Combining the statements, I guess a soul is partially composed of TW, and partially of Aether, which can then be converted into TW?

Does anyone else have relevant quotes?
>>
No. 79497 ID: cee89f

>>79479
>Isn't making saulanna's element will a bit too chosen1?
She is a titan with a demigod symbiote, and the f%$#ing moon goddess named her. Yeah, she's a little chosen1~ xD

>None of the other titans have such an awesome element.
Except Oramus.

>But didn't we get told already that human souls are not actually made of will in of itself (or rather, they are made of will the same way everything else is).

No, we got told they were bits of pure titanic will. And it's evidently moreso than, say, earth because Earth is a valid element.

>And that when we eat a soul what we are actually doing is consuming it to generate titan will, not harvesting the titan will that it is made out of, because its not actually made out of raw titan will
Not really sure what you're saying here. We get will from the souls, therefore they can't have will?

>>79488
Wordblood:
>"My lady, souls are just fragments of Titanic Will that have been shaped into various forms for various purposes. Human souls collect excess energy from their surroundings, refine it into aether, and channel that in turn to the gods through prayer, or to the world of dreams when they sleep and when they die. That would just be Will.
Which is what the whole idea is based around: That having 'soul' as an element would just be 'will' and that souls are made out of will to begin with.

>Aether

Unfortunately aether has only been discussed a couple of times in the whole story, so there's not much to go on. I had thought Wordblood and Kairosa went into more depth on it in the post you linked, but apparently not, they refer to it as a 'refined' resource and compare it to clay, but not much else. I think that aether is supposed to be the mortar to the TW's bricks.

Or possibly aether is refined TW, like how you get steel from iron or glass from sand. It's been said that aether is made/refined through prayer and sent to the gods.
>>
No. 79501 ID: c841ea

>>79497
>She is a titan with a demigod symbiote, and the f%$#ing moon goddess named her. Yeah, she's a little chosen1~ xD
I meant compared to the OTHER titans, Gods, and Exalts

>Ormus had one
Ormus MAYBE had one, and if he did he was the only titan awesome enough to have one.
Tells you something about how awesome a thing it is.
>>
No. 79502 ID: 3bad4c

I was wondering how long this conversation would take to break the discussion thread again.

Prev threads are at 1494 and 1625 posts.
This one's at 1180.

I'm going to guess that the danger limit's somewhere between 1500 and 2000, so it seems you have quite a bit longer to watch the grass grow.
>>
No. 79503 ID: cee89f

>>79502
The previous two threads were originally one thread that got errored.

>>79501
I stand by what I said, we're already chosen1-ish, even for Heroes/Titans.
>>
No. 79661 ID: aef4c1

Another medium-term idea:
We know from Wordblood's statement in Inside the Quest IX, that at her current level, Saulanna could create a Common Deva. Also, that these can be brought to the outside world relatively easily. The minimum SF for a Commoner Deva is 3, so it'll likely take 3-5 TW to create one (meaning it's not something we'll be doing immediately). Making a physical creature would be cheaper, but requires knowledge/skill. (Maybe knowing how to transform into one might help?)

My suggestion for a Common Deva would be a Builder Deva - a laborer and architect, probably with a Stone Element (if Commoners even have Elements).
A spirit that can possess, levitate and reshape rocks would be good for things like digging out a cave dwelling, constructing a Manse, disassembling a wall, building a pit trap in one minute, or simply dropping a brick on someone's head from considerable height. If the Deva is intangible, it could do even perform work underground, redirecting geomantic power flows in a region.
Note that leaving this one with Peregrin to build Manses while we're gone from the shadowland would make the time distortion work in our favor, allowing it to do possibly months of construction while we're away...

Note: Before making independent Devas, maybe we should first get a soul with a Progenitor Purpose - meant to assist in forming new Devas (independent or not). This would make the process more efficient, saving on TW in the long run, and this Deva might provide the necessary skills for making physical creatures, too.
>>
No. 79724 ID: 5d121c

>>79661
making a noble deva would make much more sense than a common one

how would a common one be defined without any nobles above it?
>>
No. 79728 ID: 3c0e7c

>>79724

Common devas aren't "defined by" their Noble superiors, not the same way that Nobles are by Lords or Lords by their Titan. They are often made by Nobles, but can also be made by Lords, or by Nobles and Lords working together, or even directly by their Titan. Titans can even copy the "design" for a type of Common deva from other Titans. The Common deva will still be flavoured by their Titan, and still have a connection to said Titan, because their progenitor is the one who lends them their life force.

To put it another way, if Lords are part of their Titan in the sense that your arm is part of you, and Nobles are part of their Lords in the sense your hand is part of your arm, then Common devas are more like tools that your hands wield. Not part of you, but made by you, and they can only move because of your muscles and your will, without which they'd be "dead".
>>
No. 79944 ID: 072706

Any guess/news on when this will start updating again?
>>
No. 79945 ID: 4a75fa

>>79944
Last word was after Polokoa wraps up and the second Will of Undermind thread happens.
>>
No. 80164 ID: 331c4a

I finally caught up with the story. Curious to know when we'll see more.
>>
No. 80165 ID: 0ee153

Well done on abusing the subject field and not reading the two posts directly before yours.
>>
No. 80293 ID: aef4c1

>>80165
Well, if nothing else, the info is now easier to find at a glance, scrolling through the discussion thread. (OK, not gonna help much with a thread that large...)

Anyway, I came up with some more Deva suggestions - a couple of Elements I like:

For a Crafting Soul, how about an Ideas Element?
An Idea Crafter would be good at normal crafting, but would specialize in inventing new things, new ways of doing things, and more abstract creations like rumors, books and forms of government. Sure, it might end up a bit impulsive and mad-scientist-like, but that's pretty much a bonus IMO - and Crafting is fairly passive as Purposes go. (Anyway, by the time we get to this one, we should be able to control a rambunctious Deva.)
The main argument against Ideas as an Element would be that it is fairly close to Words - either could conceivably have a Thought Noble, or plant a thought into someone's head. To resolve this, we might need to distinguish the concepts from each other, and firmly establish which Deva has which responsibilities.

I also thought of a cool Element for a Travelling Soul, should we want one: Paths.
Paths is well suited to travel, and we might be able to do stuff like detect where a given path is going, forge a path where there was none before, warp space so the path we follow gets shorter, etc.
Its Nobles might also turn out interesting: Tracks (paths left by just one person), Rivers (the paths that water travels), Samsara (well-worn paths in reality itself)...

Granted, both Crafting and Travelling are fairly low-priority Purposes at the moment. Still, I figure Ideas and Paths could make for pretty decent Titanic themes. Opinions?
>>
No. 80295 ID: cee89f

>>80293
Those two elements might be too specific for Lords, especially Paths. (i feel like they sit right at the razor edge, ya know?) And if we're going to have a Samsara element, it'd be a Lord, not a noble (Samsara has been described as part of the very foundation of reality itself)

But I DO like Ideas as a Titanic element. We should ask about it when the game starts up again.

We now have THREE opinions to consult on deva elements instead of two. So we'll have a wider range of opinions and options, and there's a good chance the devas will talk amongst themselves about various ideas as well.
>>
No. 80394 ID: 080676

ideas are always a good idea.
>>
No. 80395 ID: 26e322

I thought this came up before? Ideas, Thought or any similar element is too close to Wordblood. Such elements can be a Noble under him, nothing more.
>>
No. 80402 ID: cee89f

>>80395
The big problem with throwing out any Titanic element for that reason is that we really don't have any source of info regarding what would or would not be too close to Communication, save what's already been said by our devas, and quite frankly that hasn't been much. It's possible, for instance, that Wordblood would complement an Ideas deva rather than compete with it.
>>
No. 80433 ID: 6bfbde

Wordblood said something along the lines of him planning om making Nobles out of Truth, Knowledge, and Thought. Ideas is way too close to both Knowledge and Thought, and one or more would like eat each other.
>>
No. 80436 ID: 6d7f08

>>80433
Ideas is more like two steps removed from Words, whereas Thoughts is one step removed. I'm guessing the main thing is that there's enough conceptual space for both to form Nobles.
I'm more concerned about possible rivalry, as with similar purposes - the two might have overlapping duties in some situations.
>>
No. 80438 ID: cee89f

>>80433
This is a fair point, but iirc he only said this for Thought.

>>80436
Well, it's possible that the two would complement each other nicely, especially since Wordblood's purpose is Aide, but as mentioned above, he wanted a thought Deva, which would definitely come to close. What about an Invention element? It's more distant from Communication and the thought noble wordblood wanted.
>>
No. 80440 ID: aef4c1

>>80438
Hmm, I dunno, "Innovation" would be a less problematic element, but it also feels like it would be a less potent one. Ideas has more associations; it could branch out into Memes, Imagination, Ideals - even Lightning, if we get metaphorical. Much of the stuff that Innovation is close to - Inspiration, Creativity etc - is already close to Ideas.
Granted, it would probably be better at crafting physical objects (at the expense of abstraction crafting), and we might gain Creation and Machinery nobles. But it feels, y'know, more tame. Instead of a wild-haired over-the-top mad scientist Deva, we'd get a sensible inventor Deva with non-poofy ponytail and a pencil behind her ear.
...Not that there's anything wrong with that; I just personally prefer my science mad.
>>
No. 80444 ID: cee89f

>>80440
'Invention' basically means 'the creation of a new thing'. That includes most of idea's purview, but would also be better at making them real.
>>
No. 80456 ID: d17222

Is this ever coming back, or should I just give up hope entirely and consign myself to big fluffy spacerabbits?
>>
No. 80463 ID: 0ee153

>>80456
Here, I'll link the posts so people won't have to go to the tremendous bother of, heaven forbid, reading the last 50 posts. For a few more posts, at least.

>>79944
>>79945
>>
No. 80467 ID: d17222

>>80463
So, "Yes, you should."
>>
No. 80470 ID: 5d121c

How about a Fantasy deva.
>>
No. 80491 ID: cee89f

>>80470
...Personally? I'm gonna respectfully go with 'no'.

Fantasy is, by definition, false. Unreal. Non-existent. That seems... antithetical to what a Titan is. Even if it could work as an element, how much would we get out of a crafting deva who crafts fantasy? I mean I guess we would become particularly adept at illusions, but at actually making things?
>>
No. 80494 ID: 0ee153

>>80491
fan·ta·sy
ˈfantəsē/Submit
noun
1.
the faculty or activity of imagining things, esp. things that are impossible or improbable.
"his research had moved into the realm of fantasy"
synonyms:imagination, fancy, invention, make-believe; More
antonyms:realism, truth
the product of imagining impossible or improbable things.
"the scene is clearly fantasy"
a fanciful mental image, typically one on which a person dwells at length or repeatedly and which reflects their conscious or unconscious wishes.
plural noun: fantasies
"the notion of being independent is a child's ultimate fantasy"
synonyms:dream, daydream, pipe dream, fanciful notion, wish; More
an idea with no basis in reality.
"it is a misleading fantasy to suggest that the bill can be implemented"
a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure, esp. in a setting other than the real world.
2.
a musical composition, free in form, typically involving variation on an existing work or the imaginative representation of a situation or story; a fantasia.
verbliterary
verb: fantasy; 3rd person present: fantasies; past tense: fantasied; past participle: fantasied; gerund or present participle: fantasying
1.
imagine the occurrence of; fantasize about.




The first definition is perfectly real.
>>
No. 80499 ID: aef4c1

I think "Imagination" would be a better wording of such an Element than "Fantasy".
Imagination could work, I guess. It'd be more focused on illusion and Faerie Glamour than Ideas or Innovation, but it would still be workable and functional.
Still, I was considering an Element of Hope (maybe a social Deva?) to round out ourselves with an emotion-based Element, and Imagination seems uncomfortably close to that.

(The DS has Elements of Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change & Death. It makes for a coherent theme; Deception is conceptually close to both Darkness and Cunning, for example.
I hope we can get something similar, in time.
Elements like Rebirth, Love, Hope, Ideas, Paths & Heroism seem like they could gel in a similar way - and in a positive direction. Ideas can be said to be Paths for the mind, Heroism inspires Hope, etc.)
>>
No. 80502 ID: cee89f

>>80494
Er, not really.
>the faculty or activity of imagining things, esp. things that are impossible or improbable. "his research had moved into the realm of fantasy"
This definition deals with imagination, which is also unreal.

Now granted, a Titan can probably make anything it can imagine. But when something is made real, it's no longer fantasy, see? Because you don't have to imagine it anymore, since it's real and... I have no idea if I'm getting this across correctly.

Unrelated: Does anyone else think our next Deva will either be blue or some mix of the three major soul colors (red, orchid/purple and light blue) we have right now?
>>
No. 80504 ID: 0ee153

>>80502
Wrong. Imagination exists. The products of imagination are unreal, but imagination itself- the ability to imagine- is real.
>>
No. 80513 ID: cee89f

>>80504
I was referring to the products, actually, which is rather important when you're talking about a creature whose entire job is to make things :P
>>
No. 80514 ID: 2c6ff1

>>80513
Are you really that dense? It would be making fantastical things. They would still exist.
>>
No. 80521 ID: cee89f

>>80514
First, I fail to see how calling me dense was necessary. Normally wouldn't care enough to mention, but it's been an awful day.

Second, that doesn't solve the problem. Devas perform their duties through the element they are composed of. An Imagination deva would create things through imagination. Those things would not exist because they would be composed of one's imagi

I just had a mental image of Saulanna mowing down mortals with an imaginary tommygun. Never mind, sold!
>>
No. 80524 ID: aef4c1

I figure any Lordly Deva can perform their Purpose at a basic level; Kairosa isn't exclusively about Time-based feeding - she can do basic soulnomming and TP-wrangling too. Likewise, I believe any crafting Deva would be able to forge mundane weapons, though their Element would inform how they go about performing the task, or what bonuses they might get towards it.
>>
No. 80533 ID: c841ea

>>76440
>Asteroidverse
where can I find that?
>>
No. 80534 ID: cee89f

>>80533
It's called Polokoa Quest - you might have to dig a bit to find it, and some of its jokes might slip by you if you're not familiar with Asteroid Quest (and/or Polo Quest), but it's still fun.
>>
No. 80556 ID: 5d121c
File 139670569244.jpg - (186.92KB , 477x705 , m1.jpg )
80556

>>80491
>Fantasy is, by definition, false. Unreal. Non-existent.

Not in exalted it isn't.
>>
No. 80558 ID: cee89f

>>80556
Well in that case a deva of one charm/ability is too specific for a Lord :P
>>
No. 80581 ID: 5d121c

>>80558
now youre just being silly
>>
No. 80584 ID: cee89f

>>80581

I already said I'm sold on the idea ( >>80521 )

So yes, I AM just being silly. But you started it. :P
>>
No. 87682 ID: e991df

half considered thought for a soul that i just want to have down somewhere related for when this EVENTUALLY starts up again:
i was thinking about anything that might get us dominion over shadowlands because shadowlands are conceptually unclaimed and thus not something that would lead to us stepping on anyone's toes, but without EXPLICITLY tying us to shadowlands because then we'd be strengthened by the growth of shadowlands which would make us the enemy of basically... literally everyone. What I've come up with, though it would kind of screw up the original "don't step on anyone's toes" intent, is boundaries/in between places. It would almost definitely set us against luna because it'd involve border/middlemarches, which are kind of part of luna's thing, as well as shorelines/beaches, which i'm 90% sure are also somewhere under luna's authority because tides, and of course the original intent, shadowlands, but also probably the ordinal directions (SW, SE, NE, NW.) Could lead to some really intersting powers though, like a watcher soul that could tell us about anyone or anything who was crossing over from one place to another place.
>>
No. 87975 ID: ecd0ab

>>87682
As a counter-idea that would definitely step on toes but also might be super sneaky about it: a soul with the purpose of Theft and the element of Aether. Admittedly we'd probably need to be more powerful to try and steal from under the UCS' nose, but he is unlikely to expect something literally titanically designed to steal Aether. Also he's probably very very distracted by the Games. I think it's an idea good enough to at least bring up to Wordblood and Kairosa at some point, although probably not as our next deva. Side bonus is that we'd get to have power theft abilities, although given how little we know about Aether I couldn't really speculate what they would do.

Also, if Jukashi feels Masks are not appropriately primordial enough to be an element, a Stealth soul of Deception might be what that would actually fall under? Basing this on Jukashi's description of Deception, let me link it.
>>62748
"Deception, similarly, is whenever something is made to look other than it is: a stick insect, the reflection of the moon in the water, et cetera. At least, that's how I was using them."

That covers Masks, I think, although it is a broader area. I suppose some of us may be opposed to it though, either because we are sharing an element with another Titan, or because they don't want Deception as an element at all. I feel like it would still be appropriate, though, since it would sort of shore up some of Wordblood's weaknesses, I think. Deception isn't automatically dishonest, as described so much. A reflection of the moon in the water isn't a LIE, it's just an appearance that is taken to be other than the reality. That's kind of what we need: to be viewed as something other than a baby Titan. We want to appear to be the stick, not the stick insect.

Admittedly, the Deva themselves might be rather dishonest, but not so much to US, since in a very real sense we would BE them. In a Titan broken like the Yozi are, it might be a liability, but the Yozi were broken VERY deliberately.

Other ideas I still like are a soul of Seeing, and I still feel a soul of Seeing sharing an element with either Gaia or Autochthon could be really beneficial to us, because although both of them are sort of out of reach of most Heroes, we could learn a great deal about what's going on with them just by CREATING a soul like that, as we learned about Gaia's Time dragon from Kairosa's Time element, even though her purpose had nothing to do with gaining knowledge about that.

>Gaia: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wood, Time and Aether
>Autochthon: Steam, Metal, Lightning, Oil, Crystal, Smoke

A Seeing soul of any of these elements(except Time) could work for us really well. I know some of you might not like the idea of a Seeing soul of Fire, for example, because it seems too limited, but the thing is Fire is civilization: pretty much anywhere you find human life, you find Fire. Campfires, hearth fires, cooking fires, communal fires, ritual fires, all of these would fall under our view. It's actually a really powerful element for Seeing! And Jukashi himself said that essentially, the more limited the scope of a soul, the more power it will have in its sphere of influence, although that may be a game balance thing as much as anything. Now obviously we could probably come up with an Element for a Seeing soul that actually WOULD suck, and I'm not terribly interested in all of Gaia's elements for it, but none of them would be BAD at the job of gathering information for us. They would just be more specialized. Earth would let us find deposits of many valuable magical materials like Jade or Moonsilver, and information about stuff going on underground(this is Exalted, there is a BUTTLOAD of stuff going on underground,) Air would obviously be very broad and able to tell us a lot about weather systems that might be useful, as well as flying Manses(also a lot of these, although rarer than the underground kind), Fire I've already described somewhat but if we go far South we'd be a lot more protected if we had a soul made of it, Water would be phenomenally valuable in the West, and strong everywhere else because even in the South people still need to drink water, and build their settlements around sources, Wood actually has a lot of significance as far as relating to Life, and covers more than just trees, also we are farther East than anything else if I remember correctly? Again, people still need to eat, and most cultures don't survive on meat alone.

I have NO IDEA what Aether is exactly, but it's obviously really important to Titans and Gods both, since the UCS is guarding the Aetherworld?
And Wordblood described it as the 'clay for their greatest works' and the final refined form of chaos. Not enough information to know what this would do, really. Time we already have as an element, so that's not a choice anymore.

On to Autochthon's elements which are weirder but also mostly pretty interesting for this purpose, we have Steam, which actually might be among the weaker of them? Do clouds count as steam? It looks like if I base it on the dictionary definition, yes, they do. So not so weak after all. Some vulnerability to clear weather, but hey, we can always spy on saunas or something. Metal, which would be both limited in scope and probably extremely powerful where it came up. Want to find treasure? That's a good treasure hunting soul. Find starmetal, moonsilver, orichalcum, soulsteel, and alloys. Want to break a bunch of valuable artifacts, Metal will show us a lot of those artifacts weaknesses. Metal would probably show value REALLY fast, given the amount of treasure hiding in Creation. Lightning: well, pretty limited in general perception, but a lot of Magitech would fall under this, I think. There are a lot of airships, warstriders, etc. that would have been fitted with lightning cannons, because let's be honest, who doesn't love a lightning cannon? It also would cover things like the web of weather control systems that used to be in place, but it's hard to say whether someone might have destroyed those or whatever, given what little we know of current events. Still, it would let us shoot lightning! Maybe not as well as a more fighting oriented soul, but come on, shooting lightning.

Oil is weird. I don't know if we would want it unless we actually wanted to visit Autochthon. Crystal is powerful for a lot of the same reasons as Metal regarding treasure hunting, and has the side benefit that there are entire libraries held on crystals, including probably everything that is likely to be left regarding the Dragon Kings. Also basically all Dragon King artifacts were either crystal or plant based, which makes me realize Wood actually would have found a lot of stuff from them too, since they were sort of like plant genetic engineers, except magic. Anyways, Wordblood can eat libraries for TW. Crystal would be very very strong as a Seeing soul. Smoke is straightforward: where there's Smoke, there's Fire. It would be a more appropriate element for us thematically than Fire, I think, though. Probably sneakier sorts of powers.
>>
No. 87976 ID: 766913

Like you said with Fire, Metal is pretty much synonymous with civilization. Numerous common household items are made of metal, and people who pose a threat to us are likely to be carrying even more significant quantities of metal on their person (weapons and armor). Lightning would be a lot more useful if mainstream Creation had gotten around to inventing electronics.

If the element of Earth is taken to grant influence over what's immediately above the earth (Gaia likes her fertile topsoil, after all), then it would apply to basically anything that's happening outdoors, which would have the interesting effect of letting us see almost everything except what people are deliberately trying to keep private.
>>
No. 87982 ID: ecd0ab

>>87976
Mainsteam Creation DID get around to inventing electronics, though. It's just then there was the whole thing with the Usurpation and now it's really hard to say what might have happened to all of it, and how much might be functional, how much might might be destroyed, and how much is just out in the Wyld somewhere, and whether there would be anything relevant in close proximity to us currently. Too much time has passed for us to have current information on that. If we had a Lightning soul we could probably figure out this stuff but currently all we have to go on is what we've got from a bunch of random ghosts, basically none of whom were treasure hunters or magitech experts.
>>
No. 87983 ID: aef4c1

>>87975
>Aether
I don't think we need to make a whole Deva for that - Aether is close to Will, right? We might be able to get Aether or Dream Nobles (assuming Saulanna's a Will Deva).

>Seeing soul
I'm partial to Resonance, myself. That might let us obtain information on things we already have a sample of - such as Titans.

>Stealth Deva
I'm not sure about Masks; I think it's perfectly valid and useful, and I expect Kairosa and our Hero Soul will both like it - but I figure having Masks, Deception etc as an Element will make us inherently inscrutable, meaning others will have a harder time trusting us later on.

BTW, here's another option for Stealth Deva I thought of: Humans/Mortality. Such a Stealth Soul would hide us by making us seem and act more human-like. Taken up a notch, it would likely even hide our Heroic features, letting us pass as a dirt-common human.
As a bonus, this Deva would be good for keeping our mortal perspective, making it a particularly good Deva to get early on, before we lose that perspective.
Pro:
*Better relations with mortals. Counter-weight to other more abstract Elements. (Also one of few Elements which could have Common Sense as a Noble, making us truly unique among Titans.)
*Element synergy could make it easier to affect Mortals with our various abilities. Also, we could get dedicated abilities to manipulate or investigate mortals.
*Easier to hide among myriads of mortals than among ~10,000 heroes; mortals are beneath notice to many VIPs. May be able to disguise our Tell, fake a fate etc.
*Would likely provide the knowledge we need to create mortal beings from scratch in our Inner World.
*Later on, it might be able to do stuff like imposing Mortality on immortals, giving us an edge against powerful beings.
Con:
*Sort-of maybe Death-aspected?
*Mortals are limited; hiding as one of them would decrease what we can plausibly do without blowing our cover.

Suggestions for example abilities:
I Just Want to be Normal (Stealth + Mortality/Humanity Deva)
Sometimes, Saulanna leaves the wilderness and walks the streets of a town like an ordinary woman... With this Charm, Saulanna takes the guise of a mortal. For the duration, all physical stats are capped at 3, SF is capped at 2, and even her Tells and Soul Fire are supressed. (Ability use limited)

Fade into the Crowd Technique (Stealth + Mortality/Humanity Deva)
Saulanna just looks too damn ordinary! While she is disguised with IJWtbN, any watcher adds their own SF as penalty towards attempts to tag her as a possible threat or target. Failure means she's beneath their notice.

Mortal Condition Understanding (Mortality/Humanity Deva)
Saulanna understands mortals thoroughly; their strengths, weaknesses, hopes and fears. This ability gives Saulanna a permanent bonus when interacting with common non-Hero mortals - persuading them, healing them, hitting them, empathizing with them...
>>
No. 87985 ID: ecd0ab

>>87983
Aether doesn't seem to be very close to Will based on what we know about it. Gaea's Queen soul is of Aether, so it must be pretty important, but we don't know a whole lot about the subject, other than that we could theoretically get a lot of power out of it.

I'm really really not sure we want a Lordly soul of Mortality, though, given the implications regarding our lifespan. And Humanity sort of seems to be Saulanna's thing, right now, what with the hut and clothing in her internal world keying off of themes of humanity's first inventions.

As far as disguising ourselves as a mortal, that's going to be probably impossible unless we want to give up all our stuff. Mortals don't get to have holdings as big as this, generally, because someone will beat them up and take it. Disguising ourselves temporarily as a mortal we actually already have very good powers for, what with Kairosa being able to suppress our Soul Fire and being a Lunar. Taking the form of another person requires us to at minimum taste their blood, though, and we probably haven't learned the shapeshifting tricks necessary.
>>
No. 87988 ID: aef4c1

>>87985
>Aether
Granted, Aether is some kind of purified chaos-stuff, but I figure if human souls contains the stuff, and soul is synonymous with Will, then the two are at least tangentially connected.

>Saulanna's Element
Remains to be seen, I guess. If it is Humanity though, then almost by definition we wouldn't be at risk of losing our human perspective.

>Mortality conflicting with being immortal
A Rebirth Element might help there.

>Mortals owning nice things.
Just because we own something, doesn't mean we have to OVERTLY own it. "No no, PEREGRIN rules this shadowland. I'm just a friend of his, is all..."
>>
No. 87989 ID: ecd0ab

>>87987
Well the thing is Saulanna theoretically would be splitting off subsouls at some point, so even if her primary element isn't humanity, maybe one of her subsouls would be? It's going to be extremely difficult to maintain a human perspective at all, but we almost inevitably will have more of one than any other Titan. And for a dragon made of words, Wordblood is very 'human' as we would generally use the word.
>>
No. 87991 ID: cee89f

>>87975
>>87976
Metal and fire both have appeal, and if we select them specifically for the civilization purposes mentioned here, they would help to ground us in our mortality.

Personally I'm a bigger fan of a Truth seeing Deva (sooner or later someone's gonna lie to us and it probably won't be for our benefit) but whatever, these are cool too.

Between the two... Pros:

Fire seems to echo a more nomadic/barbaric form of civilization. Tribes, campers, those who never settle down, that sort of thing. As a seeing soul, it would probably deal with heat (thermal vision!) and the metaphorical aspects of fire more often than literal flames. It would resonate pretty well with our Hero's soul and has the added benefits of what literal fire can do.

Metal, on the other hand, is stronger, sturdier and harkens more to permanent settlements and cities. As a seeing soul, it would help us find magical materials fairly easily and even serve as a nifty weapon detector. It would resonate with Wordblood's growing connections to civilization.

Cons: Fire doesn't last long and metal rusts. I doubt Kairosa will care for either of them. Of the two, she's more likely to lean toward fire since it's a more passionate, wild element than metals. Kairosa might like metal for the whole enduring aspect, but that's a wild guess.

There's also the problem that a Seeing Deva may not be the best choice right this second. At the moment, we need to affirm our independence in both the short term and the long term. A seeing Deva of either Fire OR Metal isn't going to help us much in that regard. Metal might give us a boost to our mental defenses ("My will is as iron!") but that would be a secondary effect at best since we're talking about a seeing Deva.

>>87983
>meaning others will have a harder time trusting us later on.
Well, yeah. We're a titan. One part of us eats literally everything, another sees no value in human life, and the last is an amnesiac. They'd be stupid to trust us when we have even more power.

On the other hand, Masks could make us look trustworthy, especially if we kept it secret.
>>
No. 87993 ID: ecd0ab

>>87991
Yeah, if I was going for 'right now' Seeing probably wouldn't be my first choice, I just am trying to come up with potentially useful souls, and given that what little we know about our past suggests we were a treasure hunter, it seems appropriate. A stealth soul would probably be much more appropriate at the current time.
>>
No. 88027 ID: ecd0ab

So I went and looked for anything else on Aether, and Wordblood said this when we were discussing elements.

- Souls

>"My lady, souls are just fragments of Titanic Will that have been shaped into various forms for various purposes. Human souls collect excess energy from their surroundings, refine it into aether, and channel that in turn to the gods through prayer, or to the world of dreams when they sleep and when they die. That would just be Will. Or perhaps you mean something like Self, or Identity? Those have both been done before, and they could work. They could try to assert themselves over you, however, and I think they could be used better for protective Purposes."

So actually an Aether Thief is sounding like it would have REALLY good synergy with Wordblood. Steal prayers out of the air, have Wordblood read them, eat them for power. Steal from dreams, maybe have Wordblood and Kairosa help with interpreting whatever we might get from that? Maybe we could eat dreams for power, too. A lot of potential for getting Titan's Will in maybe less objectionable ways. Also...we're still human, at least in the sense that we sleep and dream, and we might be able to piggyback on that to steal from the dreamworld somehow? Also probably it would help with nightmares. I am only liking this idea more and more.
>>
No. 88033 ID: aef4c1

Speaking of potentially useful souls, here's an idea I had the other month: Instead of getting a Healer + Rebirth Deva somewhere down the line, we could get a Cultivator + Rebirth Deva - I speculate we'd get several of the advantages of a Healing Purpose, many of the advantages of a Growth Purpose - and even some unique advantages. Cultivation to make things grow stronger over time, Rebirth to make things change for the better. (For straight-up instant healing, we might develop a Power Word. )
Main drawback is that it might be too close to an Aiding Purpose for Wordblood's tastes.

Some ability suggestions I thought up:
Godly Growth (Cultivator Deva +Will/Rebirth Element)
Targeting an ordinary item with this ability - and dedicating TP - confers a significant boost to the Least God of that item. In the short term, the item will self-repair and maintain itself, getting closer to its ideal state. In the long term, the Least God will permanently raise its SF, incidentally upgrading the item's quality and its abilities.
Upgrade: Works on better-quality items, even magical ones.

Fish From Fruit Trees (Cultivator + Rebirth Deva)
Saulanna cultivates an island of fruit trees in her Inner World, able to feed X mortals per dedicated TP. The "fruits" are recreations of things Saulanna has previously eaten (Reborn food!) ...which currently limits us to fried and raw fish.

Fertile Soil Accomodation (Cultivator,Rebirth/Will Deva)
Saulanna promotes growth - and by extension, her Inner World does, as well.
Anyone living in our Inner World - including Devas - has an easier time raising their SF and Talents. Crops as well will mature earlier and get healthier. Not compatible with direct buying.
Note: Greenie is likely to make use of this...

Human Resource Pools (Healing/Progenitor/Cultivator + Rebirth/Flesh Deva)
Saulanna creates and stores extra bodily resources in her Inner world in advance - tons of fresh oxygenated blood, muscle fibers, skin, bones, teeth, organs - so that when a bodypart is damaged, an immediate replacement can be swapped in. This requires MP to be dedicated for maintaining life in the organs, but the upshot is an extra +2 HP regenerated per turn (in human form), and a huge increase in stamina and poison resistance.
Note: Healing this way is not strictly a shaping effect, so it might not be resisted by Lunar Tattoos, should Saulanna get some.

Highest Royal Denominator (Builds on "Human Resource Pools")
As befits her exalted position, Saulanna's organs are simply the best, and any mortal would count themselves lucky to have one. Saulanna becomes a perfect donor for all manner of mortal creatures.
>>
No. 88044 ID: cee89f

On the more immediate subject. IE: our next Deva. I think we're pretty well settled on a Stealth deva next?

To avoid talking in circles (i think we've said all that can be said about elements at this point, at least until we get feedback from our devas) I'd suggest we follow Elaborate's lead and come up with charms and abilities related to stealth and different elements.

See no Evil
Saulanna selects one fact about her immediate vicinity. This fact becomes impossible for anyone other than Saulanna to perceive.
EX: Saulanna uses 'See no Evil' on 'That fire is hot'. The fire no longer warms anything.

Vanishing Cabinet Method
Saulanna can spend essence to move instantly between any two points that nothing mortal is currently observing. (Such as between two closed closets)

Shadow of the Moon
Even the worst lie be believed if the speaker is skilled enough. This charm allows Saulanna to speak something that the target perceives as absolute truth, no matter how unbelievable. They will rationalize everything else as far as they need to in order to justify whatever Saulanna says.

(Ex: "Intruder!" "No I'm not." "False alarm!")

... I'm half asleep right now, I have no idea if these are any good.

>>88027
If Gaia would be over-possessive of ANY of her elements, it would probably be the highly addictive, ultrapowerful one that even Titans are supposed to limit their access to.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that if we created any kind of Aether deva, it eventually would become Queen/King.

>>88033
>...which currently limits us to fried and raw fish.
Unless we could potentially tap into everything Saulanna ate BEFORE she got her soul cleaned?
>>
No. 88056 ID: 687279

>>88044
You left out the elements.
>>
No. 88059 ID: cee89f

>>88056
This is why I said I was half-asleep. *facepalm* sorry.

I think they'd actually work pretty well with any stealth soul, but:

See no Evil - Perception
Vanishing Cabinet Method - Not sure, but best guess would be Perception or possibly Travel (For what I hope are obvious reasons)
Shadow of the Moon - Masks (Make yourself appear absolutely trustworthy)
>>
No. 88112 ID: ecd0ab

>>88044
A travel soul could likely accomplish the cabinet thing fairly easily, assuming an appropriate element.

See No Evil I'm not so sure about, a stealth soul could probably do something like that, but is this something people are CURRENTLY aware of? Or something that noone is currently paying attention to? And do you mean literally stopping the heat, or just the perception of the heat? The first is much more difficult than the second, although still theoretically in the range of things a soul could do. It could potentially cover all of the stuff I just said but at different ranks/soul force levels, but if it's a stealth soul the 'literally erase the heat of the fire while someone is watching' thing is well beyond what we are likely to do right now. Especially since as described this is very broad.

Shadow of the Moon doesn't seem Masks aligned so much as Deception, but Masks are probably a narrower subset of Deception. Masks powers would probably be stuff more like hiding our Tell, or enhancements to us taking other shapes, or enhancements to gaining new shapes, or small bits of shapeshifting or illusion or even just mundane disguise skills. We might find it easier to gain the shapeshifting powers that let a Lunar learn the shapes of spirits or elementals, for example, also. Probably moreso as our devas further develop their connection to our physical form, although given the events of the last thread apparently SOMETHING has affected our physical form pretty radically.

On that note, I'd probably suggest as our first course of action next time we have the ability to suggest that we take our war form. It regenerates, so we can suppress soul fire safely, and also it would be a lot more suspicious to have a war form which is taller and has horns. Those are basically things that are already in the scope of Lunar war form enhancements. Hell, strong enough Lunars can turn into GIANT war forms, so it's a lot less suspicious that way. Admittedly the horns might cause some suspicion among the Lunars who came here to stop us from turning into a Wyld-tainted mutant, but the process they are worried about doesn't happen that fast, and they probably don't even know what our form is supposed to look like in the first place.

Also we probably need to eat Peregrin's Sorcery library. Kairosa said the way Saulanna would develop the ability to use Will herself was through learning Sorcery, and the more Wordblood knows about the subject the better he can help us on that path.
>>
No. 88115 ID: ecd0ab

>>88112
LESS suspicious, not more suspicious. War form being taller and having horns is LESS suspicious than normal form being taller and having horns. Sorry, typo.
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No. 88117 ID: 024b25
File 141920592577.png - (1.30MB , 986x1000 , 1410629840406.png )
88117

I know it's rude, but I've given up entirely and am actually a little upset at being lead on with ITQ answers and similar when it's growing increasingly evident that Jukes is only happy to make continual excuses.

Just announce it one way or another and give us an actual date or something.

I'm so tired of waiting for a quest that's slowly being eclipsed by its own discussion threads and ITQ asks.
>>
No. 88119 ID: 7a756e

>>87682
Borderlands! That's the best term for what I was thinking about, but that'd probably be more a lesser soul under a borders/boundaries soul.
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No. 88120 ID: a19cd5
File 141920718117.jpg - (954.81KB , 3648x2736 , Salt_shaker_on_white_background.jpg )
88120

>>88117
>>
No. 88122 ID: 6e00a5

>>88117

Excuses? After the first chapter of Lunar Quest, I did other Quests at my leisure and only went on to chapter two when I was finished with them. I've never said nor intentionally implied that I would do anything other than the same thing this time. I will come back to Lunar Quest when I'm done with whatever other Quests I want to do in the mean time. If you like Lunar Quest, and don't like my other Quests, well I still enjoy making them, so sorry.

I don't see how doing ITQ is 'leading you on'. Do you want me to not make ITQ posts for Lunar Quest?
>>
No. 88123 ID: 7a756e

Crazy idea: do you guys think it might be possible to grab the ability to pull stuff out of Saulanna's internal world, then pull her soul out and eat her own heart's blood to grab the ability to transform into herself?
>>
No. 88125 ID: 024b25
File 141920871566.png - (118.60KB , 999x700 , 1364110140741.png )
88125

>>88122
Like I said, I apologize if I was rude. It often feels as if your quests are really one of a few of substance, and it's been...

Well, about three years since Undermind. Almost four.

And more than a year and a half since Lunar - heck, in a couple of months it'll be two.

Part of me is worried that, as someone who wanted to stick to the threads and enjoy them alone, it will be deeply difficult to participate in the next thread if/when it happens.

I only worry about this because there's so much discussed in here and so much that's confirmed here and in ITQ that I can't keep track of it all. That I'll suggest and get shot down by people telling me to look up some random-ass obscure post you made half a year ago, because that can happen now. That's the time frame we're dealing with.

I understand you do what you enjoy. I wouldn't ask for anything else. Mostly I'm just venting frustration.

All I'm saying is that I wish I had some form of ETA, some kind of date to to look forward to, anything other than leaping on each individual ITQ and feeling in the back of my mind "well, this is all we'll get from now on".

Because I know you're better than that in terms of /if/, but when all I get is radio silence or vagueness on /when/, it's just...

ugh.

Sorry. Just understand that you have many eager fans, who miss things they like, okay? I don't intend to be hurtful. just impatient.

You're also literally the only quest master I know of who takes this long between threads of a quest - except maybe Diarca - not that it's a bad thing, but relatively speaking, your stuff is super /duper/ dead.

I doubt you're a nasu fan but it's like waiting for the goddamned tsukihime remake

(If you're going to beg for updates you don't have to be an asshole about it.)
>>
No. 88127 ID: 2ec61a

>>88125
just use the wiki. everything is in there.
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Lunar_Quest
near the bottom, right about the gallery, is every ITQ post. all in one spot. aka, sound like you got upset because it was hard to find the ITQ posts, but that isn't true at all.
>>
No. 88128 ID: 1071f4

>>88125
Jukashi is running a quest right now though? polokoa is Jukashi's.
>>
No. 88129 ID: 024b25

>>88128
I'm a fan of Jukashi, not Lagotrope.

You might as well tell a Brandon Sanderson fan who's waiting for his next book to read Wheel of Time, or whatever series he finished for the posthumous author.

>>88127

Mostly just impatient and wishing I had some date to look forward to, that's all.
>>
No. 88130 ID: 1071f4

>>88117
>>88125
>>88129
just wow
>>
No. 88131 ID: ecd0ab

>>88117
The discussion thread agrees on nothing ever. So there is no reason to worry about the discussion thread, since we will never agree on anything.
>>
No. 88146 ID: 766913

>>88125
I second this.

As for "when", I know giving dates is hard, but could you perhaps give a percentage-based completion rating? Like, do you think you're about 50% of the way through the current chapter of whatever story you're working on right now, or 1/3rd, or 2/3rd, or whatever?

>>88127
"Everything" is on the wiki? It doesn't even have a character bio for Kairosa yet.

>>88131
I agree with this. I think everyone else will, too ;)

A lot of the speculation here is going to be rendered completely irrelevant the moment we can ask our souls about stuff again, and be told how we're completely wrong, or should be focussing on other concerns.
>>
No. 88147 ID: 1ae57f

>"Everything" is on the wiki? It doesn't even have a character bio for Kairosa yet.
It links to all the core content. All the threads, the itq posts, and wordblood's stuff in the dis thread. It fulfills it's primary purpose- making it so readers don't have to keep track of that stuff on their own, and it's not hard to find.

Providing reader / fan created summaries and writeups are a distant second to that. They happen if and when someone gets to it. (And personally, I tend to prioritize adding content that helps readers. Like, adding character bios is a priority if it's actually hard to keep track of characters. If I were to work on the Lunar wiki page, I'd start by cleaning up / reorganizing the confusing mess of stats / capabilities / competencies / abilities / talents / deva powers so maybe it would be more useful as a reference).

I'll add the obvious comment that if you're unhappy with the state of the wiki, there's an easy way to fix that.
>>
No. 88148 ID: ecd0ab

>>88147
I could probably work on getting some of the Titan power stuff we have bought/have the option to buy on the wiki if anyone thinks it'll be useful. Like most people probably don't remember that Wordblood once said we could buy the True Speech ability or the first level of the Depth of Comprehension ability since that was well before the first Internal Phase and those both sound pretty useful, although I'm not entirely clear on how Depth of Comprehension works. Like it increases Wordblood's potential Power and Titan's Will gains from eating books, I get that part, but does it affect the knowledge he gets from it? Do higher levels mean, for example, that he might get Master Magelearning from eating a book that he otherwise would have gotten Expert Magelearning from? Or is it exclusively the Power and Titan's Will gains? Regardless, being able to use books as Power batteries is REALLY valuable. We just have to be careful about how we use it. So many of our best powers can very easily get us revealed as what we are.
>>
No. 88149 ID: 69fd19

I kinda feel like we're doing too much power-thinking and not enough direct- strategizing as to how to handle the next part of things...
So, first off, before we start making powers to compensate for our new appearance, we should just check if it's merely a new shapeshift-form for us to use instead of 'oh noes we iz stuck!'. On top of that, we should check how MUCH has changed-is it just a single-form change, or a brand new template across the board? Or does it even change what the tell we have is? (no mask-markings &tail, but now we have horns always?) It might even allow a 'toggle' in tells, maybe, with different tells saying different things...Hrrm.
But anyhow, beyond shapeshifting, I think maybe we should have Peregrin act as something of a go-between, and perhaps hint at our domination of him by us to the Lunars- they're concerned about us being able to hold our own, and I think that round of Social Combat didn't exactly inspire confidence. But if we can tip them off that Peregrin is working for us instead of being yet another Dragon's Shadow Servant, they might be more comfortable with leaving us here.
As for Akatrina, I'd like to think that we could simply hear the rest of her pitch out, say no, and then if she tries to plays dirty that's when things get ugly for her...The problem is, that's kinda how we ended up getting much more than what we bargined for.
Another thought, albieit a risky one, is that we out ourselves to the moon and see how she responds. I know, bad idea for independance and all but frankly I figure if we can't remaind independant we can at least choose who wins us over, and I don't much like the profile of the Dragon's Shadow...
>>
No. 88153 ID: ecd0ab

>>88149
We have things to offer Akatrina, like trade concessions, or access to Manses!

The Moon Heroes want us to get tattoos that we absolutely cannot get.

There's really only one way to play this if we want to stay independent.
>>
No. 88155 ID: ecd0ab

We also really desperately need to eat either a book or a ghost with Leadership abilities because currently we are TERRIBLE leaders. If there was one skill we really need to engage in future social conflict, it's the ability to choose our own topics. We don't even have a single point in Leadership. We have four points in Deception and Intimidation, though, so we should probably remember that if we engage in any more social-fu.
>>
No. 88165 ID: cee89f

>>88117
>Excuses
I have yet to see him actually attempt to excuse himself for the long wait, though I suspect that is in large part because no excuse is necessary.

Lunar Quest isn't a commission project. Jukashi owes you nothing. He owes us nothing, 'kay?

He'd given us a basic schedule for his quests (albeit a long, LONG time ago and it's probably out of date by now - iirc, 'secret project' [probably Polokoa Quest, Battle Quest (now defunct) Undermind, then Lunar Quest), occasional ITQ posts and even the rare discussion thread post... and frankly that's more than he "needs" to do. -_-

>>88125
>Part of me is worried that, as someone who wanted to stick to the threads and enjoy them alone, it will be deeply difficult to participate in the next thread if/when it happens.
Oh, no need to worry there. 98% of the stuff we've said and discussed since the ending of the thread have been based on massive leaps in logic and speculation on what does what. I guarantee most of it will become garbage when Saulanna, Wordblood, Kairosa and Peregrin see our ideas and tell us why they're dumb.

Heck, Saulanna's already said it's too soon for a new one right now, so unless chapter 3 takes weeks/months in-universe (possible, but i doubt it) the deva discussions probably won't matter until chapter 4 or 5.

And if it's supposedly Word of Celestial, demand citation.

>Not a fan of Lagotrope
...... But... Lagotrope isn't writing it. :P
>>
No. 88179 ID: 766913

>>88149
>I kinda feel like we're doing too much power-thinking and not enough direct- strategizing as to how to handle the next part of things...
The problem is that Jukashi deliberately ended on an unclear cliffhanger.

Kairosa specifically said "Ok, so, er. No problem. You can fix this!", implying that she has a particular solution in mind, or at least a choice of options that's more helpful than our wild speculation. But we won't hear it until the story starts up again.

>>88155
>We have four points in Deception and Intimidation, though, so we should probably remember that if we engage in any more social-fu.
That's the problem with getting our skills from eating bad people. Most of our skills are bad people stuff.

>>88165
>Heck, Saulanna's already said it's too soon for a new one right now,
My thought is that it's a good idea to "space out" our soul creations to give each one time to "settle in" and get used to each other. I worry that if we create too many new souls too quickly, they'll overwrite our existing personality by overwhelming it with new thoughts.
>>
No. 88182 ID: ecd0ab

>>88179
I don't know that I would specifically call either of those skills 'bad people stuff' so much. Intimidation is a very appropriate skill for a Moon Hero, given their whole 'this is my stuff get away from my stuff' thing, and Deception is something that literally everyone uses all the time, even if not everyone is very good at it. People CLAIM honesty is some sort of ideal but in practice the world mostly functions on people lying to eachother in small ways and sometimes big ways constantly.

Torture is a bad person skill, though. Agreed.
>>
No. 88200 ID: 766913

I'd say there are times when intimidation and deception can be justified, but it's not a good idea for those to be our only recourse.

It's like violence. There are scumbags who deserve to be dealt with violently, but it's quite different to take everything you want by force because violence is the only thing you're good at.
>>
No. 88201 ID: ecd0ab

>>88200
We really need to either eat more ghosts or eat Peregrin's library, then. I don't really mind WHICH, but we don't have the skills that a normal person would have developed for dealing with people because of our amnesiac state. Like right now about all we can do socially without using powers is craft nice things as gifts, deceive people, or intimidate them. If we don't want to handle things that way, we need more skills to have a shot. Oh, we also know economics and how to sell things to people. So if we were trying to buy or sell things we know quite a bit about that. Otherwise our skills are focused a lot more on other tasks. I think none of the ghosts we ate were particularly social types, honestly. The ghost mentioned with a 'spiritual retinue' or the merchant ghost could potentially fill out our skillset quite a lot. I don't think it's so much that we've been eating bad people as not enough types of bad people??
>>
No. 88207 ID: ecd0ab

So I went and dug up our stuff from the various times we had the option to buy new powers for our devas and here's what I've got

Wordblood has
Soul Force 3

- World Reading 2
Level 1: Detect Will Points/Health Points (1tw)
Level 2: Detect enemy attack/defense stats (2tw)
Level 3: Detect Heart's Desire and possibly Malaffections (3tw)
- Ease of Consumption 2
Makes eating souls easier in most ways.
- Efficiency of Consumption 2
Makes eating souls more efficient for gain of Titan's Will, as well as in other ways.
- Breath of Life
He can generate a mysterious mist that supports mortal creatures.(This is primarily an inner world thing, I think)
- Seeing the Tongue Slip
Wordblood detects nuances of a target's speech and body language that reveals the thoughts behind their words.
- Blessing
Wordblood bestows the benefits of his Boost onto another creature.

Can Learn:
- True Speech
Not entirely sure how this works, but lets us speak in the True Speech, 'the language of absolute truth'? It would cost 1 Titan's Will to unlock. Possibly would be very useful with Wordblood's social combat trick he showed us, but not sure if it would be super obviously Titanic for use otherwise.
- Depth of Comprehension level 1
A multi level ability that increases Wordblood's gains from consuming books/knowledge, first in Power and later in Titan's Will. 1 Titan's Will to increase to level 1, scaling costs with level.
- Divine Listener
Requires World Reading (level 3). Allows Saulanna to hear any prayer directed at her. (1tw)
- Bond of Understanding
Wordblood devotes 2 points of his Titan Power to a target, allowing him to carry telepathic messages to and from them. (1tw)
- Comprehension
Wordblood ensures Saulanna is understood as she intends to be understood, granting a bonus to honest social attacks or attempts to teach. Overcomes bars to understanding, such as excessive local noise. Cannot assist deliberate deception.(1tw)
- Secret Subtext
Wordblood weaves a hidden meaning into a statement, detectable only by a specific target of his choosing. This consumes his action per turn and so cannot be done at the same time as another action without taking the multiple action penalty.(1tw)
- Enhancement: Taste of Time
Requires World Reading (Level 1). Allows Kairosa to use her ability to taste history without physical contact.(1tw)


Kairosa has
Soul Force 3

- Will Generation 3
Level 3: One measure of Titan's Will once per month. Improved to once per week with Will Compression. Improved to once per day if dedicated to a target.
- Efficiency of Consumption 2
Same as Wordblood, but Kairosa is better at this due to her being a Feeding soul.
- Ease of Consumption 2
Again, same as Wordblood, but Kairosa has a superior grasp of this innately.
- Forked Path Oracle
Presented with a selection of options, Kairosa attempts to get a feel for which option is more "favourable". What is favourable must be described. Total accuracy not guaranteed.
- Taste of Time
Kairosa tastes the history of something or someone, learning more about it. Requires physical contact. Living/sentient beings may notice being 'tasted'.
- Power Compression
She can devote 3 dots of Power to the task of regaining Power, making normal magical energy return at an improved rate.

Can Learn:
- The Perspective of History
Kairosa lends Saulanna the perspective of a being that is outside time, eliminating all penalties or bonuses from temporary emotions.
- Borrowing from the Future
Kairosa sacrifices future Power regeneration to gain Power now. Immediate Power gains are only half what would have been regained naturally later; excessive use interferes with Will Generation. May be detected.
- Save the Moment
Kairosa stores one turn's worth of time, which may be released later to double Saulanna's speed for one turn, giving her another action.

Saulanna herself as a deva doesn't really have obvious Titan powers yet, but is Soul Force 3. Saulanna the TITAN has an effective Soul Force of 9, although this mostly only impacts our reserve of Power or Will points(social combat will points, not Titan's Will) so far.

Also this thing Kairosa said strikes me as probably something to keep in mind

"That thing Wordblood thought of there might work. It's probably conditional or something, though, like you'd only be able to use it against arguments that threaten something you're protecting, or the like. You gotta zone in on those themes, mistress! Samsara's gotta be your friend!"

We have to take advantage of Samsara when we can, and all the previous holders of our Hero Soul were 'sneaky types'. There are precedents for sneaky types being forces for good, but one of the most obvious ones I think is basically the story of Robin Hood? Steal from the rich, give to the poor? Or in this case maybe steal from the Gods, give to the mortals? Knowledge wants to be free! Power wants to be shared! This seems like a fairly benevolent sort of direction we could go, because being a mortal in Creation SUCKS. About the only way to get around that is to be lucky enough to become a Hero, and that isn't always a good thing. Lunars might end up as Chimeras, Solars can descend into insanity, Deathknights and Infernals have some pretty glaringly obvious downsides, even if apparently the Dragon's Shadow freed the Infernals somewhat during his escape, Sidereals inherit basically the biggest workload ever, and Dragon-blooded are still pretty much small fries.
>>
No. 88233 ID: aef4c1

>>88148
I've got a bunch of questions stored for when the next quest thread starts, and two of them concern whether book nomming can be done in our Inner World (where it would presumably be undetectable), and how costly it would be to get a pile of books inside.

(I don't ask in ITQ because I feel it would be too quest-relevant; I try to keep my ITQ questions to stuff that can fuel our long-term speculation and/or be interesting in itself.)

>>88155
Deception and Intimidation will probably not be that efficient against Heroes, the first because deception resistance would be high on the wish list for social characters (note how our deception attempt made zero damage to Akatrina), the second because they think they're much bigger and badder than us (and by and large they're right - we're not very combat-oriented).
Now, IF Akatrina knows what we are, then Intimidation might actually be rather effective...

Mind you, we have FOUR good options for learning rhetoric: Booknomming, Ghost-nomming, normal book-reading, and tutoring.
If there's a tutor available (Peregrin for one has 5 in smoothtalking, in my estimation), we can take them into our inner world and have them tutor us there while time is stopped. Especially easy with ghost tutors, should Peregrin know any, since we have Metasmosis.
BTW, the advantage to reading books in our Inner World - rather than absorbing them - is that then we have a pile of books there ready for nomming, in case we need a small power-up.
(I think until we get Depth of Comprehension it will be a rather small power-up, though.)

>>88153
Eh, Tattoos would be iffy and inconvenient, but they do have their advantages - and we could still manage despite them.
*If we figure out how to craft them ourselves, we don't need to tell our secrets to anyone.
*And if we make them ourselves, there's nothing saying they HAVE to be in a particular language, right? We can make a custom-built language no-one knows to encrypt the sensitive parts, or maybe get an ability to encrypt them.
*The blocks on Titanic Shaping can be circumvented; for example, our physical talents could be raised to 5 *before* we get the tattoos done. (Anyway, the Hero Soul can propably raise our talents despite the tattoos.)
Similarly, if an ability would count as titanic shaping of our body, in most cases we could shape the environment to get the same effect - creating portals instead of teleporting, for example.

That said, I don't know that we have the experiences necessary to make the tattoos, what with the amnesia and all, so we should give it a pass for now in any case.

>>88207
I think we'll be pretty stealthy, because that's just sensible, but I'd suggest we develop our Lunar abilities towards combat purposes, mostly. This because using overtly Titanic abilities openly would cause alarm, and therefore our one non-titanic source of powers ought to be the most overt one. Our future Devas, IMO, should be mostly stealth and utility ones.
>>
No. 88239 ID: ecd0ab

>>88233
Ghost tutors would work, but the thing is we'd pretty much have to imprison them indefinitely? Which is not the nicest thing to do to someone, even a ghost. If we let them leave they would know too much. Gevin was one thing, and he really didn't know what the deal was with us at all, but now that we've created an actual inner world we can't let random ghosts leave with that information.

The problem with the tattoos is there are at least three really bad things that they could do to us and any one of the three would be pretty awful on its own. And two of them would potentially immediately reveal us. I would honestly rather go meet with the Dragon's Shadow right now than get those tattoos. I feel like that would legitimately be less dangerous to us. And the Moon Heroes are not going to take 'no, not right now' for an answer, let alone 'no, I don't want any tattoos.' It would be much much easier to attempt to use Akatrina against the Moon Heroes and then make some sort of deal that's favorable to her but not dangerous to us. We potentially could be a very valuable trade partner.

As far as deception goes, Akatrina might be more resistant to it, but she literally serves the world's biggest liar. This is not a surprising thing! We were still throwing numbers that were less than half of what hers were, so her being able to resist a not particularly good lie is not very unusual.

ALSO I MISSED A POWER OF WORDBLOOD'S I'M SORRY

VOICE IN THE DARK ability! Level 1. He can deliver messages into people's thoughts, provided Saulanna can see them. Upgrading this ability will increase its range.
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No. 88560 ID: aef4c1

>>88239
>Ghost tutors
I don't think we'd have to imprison them indefinitely - just until the visiting Heroes are gone. They might not even realize that we're a Titan - Heroes in this world have strange and wonderful abilities, and I'd say we are at the moment on par with a mid-to-early Hero, ability-wise. If Askalaff is really about 500 years old, he should be able to do way weirder stuff than we can at present.

>Tattoos
I think the Moon Heroes will in fact take no for an answer - they have already admitted some people do without the tattoos - it's just a matter of besting them in Social Combat and then not mutating too visibly.

>Deception
Not saying lies won't work at all (though Garmir at least probably has a "smell lies" power), I'm just saying it'll be horribly inefficient if their social defenses are specced specifically to resist deception. Much better to honestly say "I don't want to leave this place" and convince them with sincerity.
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No. 89070 ID: c57dbb

Just leaving this here for future reference or commentary.

After spending more time with classic mage recently, and given our success with Time as an element, considering the other spheres as elements seems worthwhile. For reference, a list follows with canonical spheres as headings over which alternate spheres appear. As a note, many of these alternate spheres aren't using their canonical names, so bonus points if you can spot the reference.

Correspondence
*Space
*Distance
*Data
Entropy
*Fate
*Math
Forces
Life
Matter
*Artifice
Mind
Prime
*Value
*Faith
Spirit
*Imperialism

Well, Death would also slot in above, but I'm pretty sure we don't want to death to be a fundamental part of our nature.
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No. 89103 ID: 330ce5

I think we should use some darker element types along with the ones being chosen. I don't know if any of these would work or not, but I think some are worth considering.

-Corruption
-Blood
-Monsters
-Dominance
-Disaster
-Wealth
-Community
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No. 89122 ID: ecd0ab

>>89103
Blood is potentially a subsoul of Wordblood's, so we might prefer to leave that open for him. But he actually said essentially that something like Blood would keep us closer to our humanity than, for example, Time. Physical and emotional concepts that are part of the normal human experience both are less alien than great big concepts like Time, Space, etc.
So we might not want to use Blood specifically, but it's not entirely on the wrong track, maybe something like Bone?
As far as 'darker' elements I'm not sure we need to deliberately choose anything dark, given we already have a deva which is resonating with the Curse, it seems like.
>>88560
The problem we had with that before was that in hiding our reasons we kind of seemed to struggle with finding a sincere argument against leaving. Not that our deception is dramatically better than our other options right now, maybe 3 points better in a best case scenario. Intimidation though actually might be pretty good, because it would potentially use our Inspiration attribute, which is higher than our Dickery, and being a big scary monster is kind of a Lunar thing plus we are actually something they should be terrified of, even if they don't know it. Regardless, that would give ME a confidence boost in the 'trying to scare them off' conversational tack, so I would think it would work okay for us too. Basically an intimidation based attack could be throwing an 8 when our only inspiration based attack before that did damage was a 5. Given that attack did 1 damage, that's a 300% increase. Deception had the problem of hitting a different defense of Akatrina's which seemed to be stronger.
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No. 89299 ID: 766913

The problem with intimidation is that it's likely to convince them to leave for only as long as it takes for them to come back with more firepower.

Plus, even with our Titan powers, both of them still are considerably older and more powerful than us. They know we're new to this Hero thing, because that's why they came here in the first place. That'll probably give them a significant bonus to resist any intimidation attempts.

If we can give them some convincing reason why we want to be left alone but they still feel like arguing, then intimidation might serve to convince them it's not worth it and to just let the matter drop. But I don't think intimidation is going to work well on its own.

The problem is that we don't have a convincing reason (or rather, we're really dead-set against giving the only one we have).

Anyway, Wordblood did have valid suggestions (interrogate Akatrina's attendants and Garmir, with their presumably-weaker defenses, to learn more about what we're up against), and which of our skills are going to get a boost soon depends mostly on what books Peregrin has in his library. We'll hopefully be able to come up with a better plan once we have that information.
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No. 120793 ID: 66321f

is lunar quest dead? :(
>>
No. 120795 ID: 3abd97

>>120793
Jukashi has been pretty busy with school stuff for a while.
>>
No. 120876 ID: 872524

Anyone got Lunar-Quest-like media to recommend, while we're waiting?
Here's mine:

Inside Out
The Pixar movie has some obvious parallels.
(I would say Fear=Wordblood, Sadness=Hero soul and Joy=Kairosa, which unfortunately leaves Saulanna and Greenie to fight over Rage and Disgust.)

Righteous Steel
( http://www.thefreedomstone.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1764 )
Exalted mileu, with a protagonist that has an, er, strong connection to certain demonic forces.
There's a few preceding books, but sadly the sequel seems to be canceled. Still, what's there is good.

Moon-led Journey Across Another World
( https://isekailunatic.wordpress.com/tsuki-ga-michibiku-isekai-douchuu/ )
Japanese light novel, college student gets summoned to other world, infused with extreme powers, then promptly discarded by the Goddess he's supposed to help. (She's the Goddess of Beauty, Appearance is his dump stat, you do the math.) Abandoned in a hostile wasteland, He secures the service of a weaboo dragon, a gluttonous spider-demon, an Orc tribe, a Dwarf clan - and a pocket dimension where he starts a thriving monster colony.
With this power... he decides to become a small business owner.

Time Braid
( https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5193644/1/Time-Braid )
Naruto fanfic, in which Sakura gets stuck in a time loop, eventually getting godlike powers.

Nighthunter
( https://royalroadl.com/fiction/14850/nighthunter )
Alexa gets summoned into a game-like world, stumbles upon a moon pool and gets infused with enough Lunar Essence to change her species into Dusk Elf. She further encounters a Bonfire - the seed to a magical city - and a demon girl in search for a contractor. With the help of the RPG-like system, Alexa has the potential to gain super-human powers - but can she navigate the mind-affecting influences of the intoxicating Goddess Elune, the demanding Genius Loci Vesta, and the amoral succubus Isabela?

The Legend of Randidly Ghosthound
( https://royalroadl.com/fiction/11209/the-legend-of-randidly-ghosthound )
The improbably named Randidly suffers an unusual event; when Earth is annexed by The "System", a reality-warping incursion, and monsters and Dungeons spawn all over - a Dungeon spawns *around* him, trapping him. To fight effectively against the monsters of the Dungeon, he will need a Class. To unlock a Class, he needs to go to a newbie village. And to access the Dungeon exit to find a Village, he needs to either get a Class - or defeat the Dungeon. Thus starts a tale of Training From Hell, unreasonable OP-ness and Inner World construction.
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No. 120957 ID: 872524

There's been a bit of focus on Commoners lately in ITQ, so I thought I'd share some of my fan-made ones. I made these roughly according to how demons are presented in the sourcebooks, while keeping in mind that 1-st circle DEVAS are likely nowhere near as screwed up as demons, likely more powerful, and in our case, designed by people that actually kind of like humans.
These particular ones fit vaguely into the categories envisioned by our fave Devas, though Wordblood seems to be communicating that our Devas would tend towards flesh and blood, so that sort of disqualifies two of them. Nevertheless:

Lumnati, The Riddling Masons
>Purpose: Create interesting architecture - especially building manses for us
>Secondary purpose: Golem-type defensive combatant
>Tertiary purpose: Geomancy manipulation
These powerful spirit-form creatures are made for the construction of buildings and manses. Intangible in their natural state, they are able to dive into rock and animate it, shaping and levitating it as they wish, then leaving the remolded stone behind and leaping into the earth once more. Naturally talented in shape-shifting, they can create a statue in mere moments, and can shapeshift into a small house in not much longer time. (If the building is bigger than the volume a Riddling Mason can comfortably hold, they add one structural element at a time.)
Lumnati prefer organic shapes in the architecture they make, describing corners and straight lines as 'itchy'.
A Lumnatus' body always bears writing describing its thoughts, though this is hard to see other than when it is animating stone. Anything a Lumnatus makes by shifting is thus by necessity inscribed in some manner, though this need not be overtly visible.
If left to their own devices, Lumnati delight in riddling their creations with hidden passageways adorned with puzzles in obscure languages, revealing still more obscure knowledge. The creatures are always interested in obtaining more books - the more obscure, the better - to facilitate the making of these byzantine riddles, and when dealing with mortals, they usually bargain for written works in exchange for their services.

Lumnati are prized by geomancers; by diving into the earth and manipulating its structure in place, they can alter geomantic flows with uncommon subtlety and precision. This makes them particularly well-suited for constructing manses.
A Lumnatus is also able to enhance mining, by removing most of the stone from an ore vein, leaving the metal-rich parts to be collected.
Furthermore, they may be used as animating spirits for a house: maintaining it, resetting traps, moving rooms about and keeping the architecture up-to-date.
Finally, Lumnati can be made to stay indefinitely in statue-form, as servants or as hulking ever-regenerating warriors, though they are mediocre at both tasks, having little facility in actually moving their stone-shaped forms around beyond the striking of poses.

When someone who solved the mysteries of a Lumnati building sighs in admiration of the architect, the Lumnatus responsible may slip through dimensions to bask in the praise.

--------------------------

Munin, the Mist Librarians
>Purpose: Acquire, sort and store memories/skills
>Secondary purpose: Scouting
>Tertiary purpose: redact memories
Winged beings of mist and breath roam the myriad corridors in the Great Wordblood Library Complex, maintaining, sorting and curating thought records. Each has a specialty it obsessively researches. Occasionally, when a Muni accumulates data to the limit of its capacity, it splits into two, each taking a sub-specialization of the field.
Few of the Munin make practical, physical use of their specialty, preferring to sort information relevant to it, but occasionally a Mist Librarian has been known to take proactive steps to generate more data to work with.

Munin have the unique ability to copy and review memories from living beings. This requires going into the target's airways, but is painless - a sleeping victim would be unlikely to notice anything except an unusually fresh morning breath. Munin can transmit copied memories for others to experience; breathing the unreal scent of a bottled memory makes you vividly recall events you never experienced in the first place.
It's possible for a Muni to entirely remove someone's memory of an event, if directed to do so - but they are vehemently opposed to destroying knowledge and will always squirrel away a copy to be filed in the Library. (Also, the victim is rather more likely to notice a memory-removal in progress than a memory reading.)

Assuming one can talk them into it, inhaling a Muni gives four advantages, for as long as it is kept in one's lungs:
*an intuitive understanding of its particular specialty,
*access to any memories it holds and chooses to make available,
*understanding of any spoken language in Creation, and finally:
*the sating of any need for air and water.
These powers naturally come at the price of not being able to speak or eat for the duration, which lasts until one next opens one's mouth - at which point the Muni will burst out, relieved to be free from its fleshy cage, and often loudly complaining about its host's breath. (Naturally, the Muni is sure to have made copies of any of your memories relevant to its specialty during its stay.)

Munin make excellent tutors, good messengers and librarians, and decent spies, but unless they are truly developed specimens, they don't have enough substance to move anything heavier than 100 grams. They also have no physical attack, and if a victim is aware of their presence, resisting their mental probes can be done even by a talented mortal.
More developed Munin have been known to be able to extract information from books by mere touch, and to use some manner of psychometry to extract memories from items, presumably by interrogating their least gods. This makes them valuable in a crime scene, whether by investigating one or by cleaning up one's traces.

When a dying scholar takes their last breath, despairing that their knowledge will be lost with them, what they draw into their lungs is often a Munin. Sometimes, this is even enough to save them.

-----------------------------

Yuugin, the Dreamcatchers
>Purpose: Gossamer production
>Secondary Purpose: ambusher with sedative bite
>Tertiary Purpose: transportation between "anchored" locations
Also known as Time Spiders, the bite of this cat-sized, purple-eyed spider will put a victim into deep yet dream-filled sleep. And while the poison itself fades rapidly, a mortal coccooned in their web experiences unaging stasis - though their mind is free to dream. The persistent dreams of up to a hundred coccooned people - anchored by their physical bodies - are stitched together to form labyrinthine dream nests, which the Yuugin use as their base from which to ply the trade of dream-fishing.
Cheerful and friendly as dreamcatchers are, they have little compunction about ambushing and abducting random people to add to their dream nests. After all, they rationalize, it's not like a street beggar will be HURT by spending a hundred years in enchanted sleep...
Still, dreamers are not ill-treated by Dreamcatchers, and some mortals have even been known to volunteer for a decade in a Yuugi's web, thereby gaining mental distance to a traumatic event, time to train a skill, or the opportunity to let an investment mature without having their body age in the meanwhile.

Timespider silk is a kind of Gossamer, spun from dreams, and this material is deeply cherished by Yuugin; they will chew it up and reuse it endlessly. It is hard to bargain for; rather, you can easily bribe Dreamcatchers with fairy-made gossamer cloth, which they'll happily digest and reconstitute into their own gossamer variant.
Time Spiders, if properly supervised, can use their webs to strengthen Creation - stitching tears in the Loom of Fate - though Pattern Spiders seem to view the fix as crude at best, replacing the strands at their earliest convenience. Still, Sidereals employ their services as emergency reinforcements for their mechanical brethren; Time Spiders have an easier time moving through chaos and paradoxes than Pattern Spiders do.

While their primary use in mortal eyes is the low-yield production of Gossamer - a service that Yuugin charge highly for - they can also weave webs to ward off nightmares, heal broken dreams, stabilize the mortally wounded until help arrives, crudely manipulate Fate, and - in extremis - darn socks. Sorcerers also value their ability to temporally isolate a volume of space, permitting some time-related tricks. Elder timespiders may assist with travel, moving a supplicant from one dream anchor to another physically.
Using them for abducting or imprisoning people is fraught with annoyance, though; the Yuugin loathe dogs, refusing to go near houses guarded by them - and will likewise kick a dreamer out, should they dream about dogs once too often. Being physically present in the dreamspace, Time Spiders are also vulnerable should the dreamer find and battle them there.

As the dream breaks, so does the cocoon, falling into gossamer strands and releasing the dreamer. Slashing open the cocoon from the outside has the same result - though the coccoons are usually very well hidden. (If the strands are left alone, the Yuugi will invariably be back to harvest and reuse them.)

When a starving child's dream strays near a Yuugi, that Yuugi may anchor their dream to their nest, descending to Creation on a gossamer strand to cocoon the body - and, often, to go finding more.

------

I've got a couple of others:
Tanuukhim, the Raccoon-girl Guides
Caliburn, the Stone-sheathed Tools,
Ourobori, the Gardener Snakes,
Mephistopholi, the Masked Merchants,
and of course Lemins, the Helpful Horde.
They're mostly written up, buuuut you can pretty much imagine them just from their names.
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No. 123300 ID: 2202fb

So, is this quest dead?
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