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28651 No. 28651 ID: c9f250

BRING ALL YOUR BIG DUMB ARGUMENTS HERE

Specifically, any argument that disrupts a thread enough will be removed from that thread. And put here for lack of a better alternative.
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>>
No. 28653 ID: c9f250

>>/quest/829905

Minion, seriously? You're helping them tell a story, not some petty overlord.
>>
No. 28654 ID: 41c9bc

>>115543
There is an objective and it is not being accomplished. Is that not cause for chastising the party responsible? I legitimately do not understand what's wrong with my post.

If anything, I felt it created something of a foil to Khoros. He is a faux-polite villainous sadist, who likes manipulating people. Why can't the voice trying to actively help the protagonist with no strings attached also happen to be a dick?
>>
No. 28655 ID: 3ce125

>>115546
It's probably just too harsh. Tone it down and I expect there will be no complaints.
>>
No. 28656 ID: 41c9bc

>>115549
>It's probably just too harsh.
Bruh. I'm about on par with a Disney villain for word choice here, not sure how much more family friendly I can be.
>>
No. 28657 ID: a363ac

something Raptie has said before is that Aubry in this quest doesn't think of the suggestors as different people from her in this quest instead of thinking about it as talking at Aubry think of it as how would you feel and act in this situation if you found yourself in it as Aubry the character. We are like Aubry-so-knotty's thoughts rather then advising her.
and telling people that they are incompitant and an idiot in any situation is just mean and hurtful.
>>
No. 28658 ID: 41c9bc

>>115557
If I was in Aubrey's position, those would be my exact thoughts.
>>
No. 28659 ID: 3ce125

>>115551
I'm not sure why you think avoiding cursewords means it's not harsh.
>>
No. 28660 ID: 41c9bc

>>115559
It's supposed to be harsh. Whether I am supposed to be a Khoros-voice or Aubrey's internal voice, it's supposed to be harsh. That's the point. She made a mistake. She should be beating herself up over it, because that's what a conscience does. It tells you when you've done something wrong, or when you've failed. It hurts. If the conscience doesn't hurt in this situation, it either isn't be doing its job or the character is a psychopath.
>>
No. 28661 ID: 91ee5f

>>115560
Or is unashamed of her weird fetish.
>>
No. 28662 ID: 41c9bc

>>115562
The fetish is irrelevant. The dog is irrelevant. Her friends are missing, in danger, and somehow beyond the ability of the apparently high-tech society in which she lives to track down. The fucking of the dog has nothing to do with it; it is the fact that she has chosen to waste time pursuing personal instant gratification instead of doing her job and helping her friends.
>>
No. 28663 ID: e8f4bd

>>115564
For all we know, Khoros is playing chess with Outissa right now.
>>
No. 28664 ID: 41c9bc

>>115565
No, they would be using Beatrix's bones as chess pieces. Beatrix hasn't respawned back at Station yet, which means she's still alive.
>>
No. 28665 ID: 3ce125

>>115560
>it's supposed to be harsh
Okay then let's go back to what I already said:
Maybe it was too harsh. Try toning it down a bit.
>>
No. 28666 ID: 41c9bc

>>115567
If it wasn't harsh I wouldn't be doing my job.
>>
No. 28667 ID: 41c9bc

If what I said didn't hurt, it would completely lose its purpose. If it didn't make her angry at herself and at us for leading her into such a selfish act, it would lose its weight and be completely pointless.

I didn't curse, I didn't go on a long tirade, and I'm not sure why the post is getting the response it is. I remained calm and rational while making it, I used calm and rational language, when by all means I should have been much angrier and harsher.

And as it stands, she is in no position to do anything for a long time while she waits for the situation to deflate, so to speak. So asking Amaranth to take over is a perfectly reasonable course of action.
>>
No. 28668 ID: e8f4bd

>>115566
Why would they need Beatrix' bones? Maybe Outissa really hates chess! I wouldn't be surprised considering she would keep losing to Khoros. Yep, I can imagine such a despicable torture happening at this very moment.
>>
No. 28669 ID: ed67d9

>>115569
I almost called you out when you said she was the "worst detective" and "worst friend," but I let it slide.

THEN You called her an imbecile, and then told her to quit so a different character could take over the quest.

That is unacceptable.

It's okay to be frustrated and upset, but so help me, don't you [b]dare/b] start slinging shit like that again. If you want to start tearing characters down, then do it to the villains.

--

Also, seriously, try to be empathetic and look at the situation from Aubrey's eyes. Her friends are missing, and she needs to find them. However, she has NO IDEA how long it's going to take. She's a detective, sure, but she could waste 10 hours following a dead lead, so to her, 15 minutes to clear her head is NOTHING.

--

Finally, if you're suggesting in this quest and you're the kind of person who wants the main character to always be laser-focused on the objective, and who wants to try to be the sole arbiter of the plot's pace... then you're gonna h a v e a b a d t i m e.
>>
No. 28670 ID: ed67d9

>>115569
Also, for the record:
>>I didn't curse, I didn't go on a long tirade, and I'm not sure why the post is getting the response it is. I remained calm and rational while making it

This scares the shit out of me.

If I told somebody, "You need to kill yourself because no one loves you, you're a waste of space, and everything is meaningless. You're worthless. You disgust me. I hate and despise you," saying it in a "calm rational voice" doesn't make it okay.
>>
No. 28671 ID: 41c9bc

>>115574
>It's okay to be frustrated and upset
I'm not. I don't understand why you are. The only thing frustrating me is constantly being told that I'm 'playing the game wrong' for something that honestly didn't seem like a big deal at the time. I've seen people post worse and have it encouraged in the original XQ, where it was an actual quest mechanic.

>Also, seriously, try to be empathetic and look at the situation from Aubrey's eyes
I am. She should feel bad. If she doesn't feel bad or worried about it, she has problems. I would be having a panic attack and trying every avenue possible if somebody I cared about was missing, not trying to get laid.

You should also try to see things from my perspective. For one thing, as stated above, this sort of antagonistic behavior towards the quest protagonist was encouraged in XQ. And it's not even antagonistic, just being a bit of a dick.

Furthermore, this was an in-character conflict between an in-quest voice and a character, and somehow it became an out of character argument. I don't really understand why people are unable to disconnect that and operate from two perspectives. Me insulting the character in-quest isn't me insulting you OOC in any way.

>you're the kind of person who wants the main character to always be laser-focused on the objective
Yes, I want them to succeed. That's why I'm here. When the players somehow manage to make obstacles out of things that aren't obstacles, it's baffling to me. Dog porn already exists. It really shouldn't be a reason to get off track.

>who wants to try to be the sole arbiter of the plot's pace
I don't care a whole lot what other people do, but I'm going to defend my side of an argument, because I don't like being told I'm wrong when I'm in the right.
>>
No. 28672 ID: 41c9bc

>>115575
I didn't say any of that. I called her stupid using a fancy word.
>>
No. 28673 ID: f30433

>>115569
Intriguing. So you think self-loathing is normal? That a person's own conscience is normally saying things hurtful to themselves? I don't know what place you're from that thinks this is normal, but it is not. Only in certain special circumstances like depression or mental illness. That said, now I'm kinda worried about your own mental health. To sling about hurtful words like they are normal, and expect them to be normal - that's not normal.
>>
No. 28674 ID: ed67d9

>>115577
>I'm going to defend my side of an argument

This is where you are wrong.

This is not an argument.

This is me telling you that if I so much as even suspect that you're saying something with the intent to be hurtful towards ANYONE in ANY of my quests, then you will be asked to not post in them again.


Everyone else: I don't mind shit-talking my villains, but don't direct it towards non-villains, okay? I am sad that I'm even having to make this an explicit rule, but this individual here has made that the case.
>>
No. 28675 ID: f30433

>>115577
>I don't like being told I'm wrong when I'm in the right.
But what if you're not right, though?
What if you only think you're right?
>>
No. 28676 ID: 3ce125

>>115577
>I've seen people post worse and have it encouraged in the original XQ, where it was an actual quest mechanic.
Could you give an example?
>>
No. 28677 ID: a363ac

>>115577
The author told you, 'You are doing the bad thing please stop,' don't try to argue with the word of God. If you never take in new information then you will end up stuck in the past and wind up wrong you know, Ever hear what people thought of the idea that the earth is round when it was first proposed.
>>
No. 28679 ID: 2870fe

>>115577
Even if you pledged to Laertes back then (btw, your ID does not match any of the ones that did), you should still act respectfully to the protagonist. This is in your own interest because.. back then Outissa already said:
>I will no longer listen to the voices that tell me terrible things
So if you don't want to be considered as an adversary, you should not let your motives be transparent. You should suggest the right things at the right time. Also, if you are playing the villain, shouldn't you be happy that Aubrey got distracted?
>>
No. 28680 ID: 2fe26a

>>115574
To get so heated over insults to a fictional character seems absurd. To selectively allow it only to those you deem 'bad guys', even more so. It's only okay when it's not directed at your darling??
>>
No. 28681 ID: 41c9bc
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Removed

>>115579
Feelin' bad for doing something wrong isn't abnormal, it's functional. Being highly concerned about loved ones in danger isn't abnormal, it's functional. I really shouldn't have to explain this.

>>115588
I didn't side with Laertes, and that was an in-character statement by Outissa, not a statement out of character by the author. One is reasonable. The other is completely bonkers.

>>115586
>If you never take in new information then you will end up stuck in the past and wind up wrong you know
And yet the quest author refuses to acknowledge when their behavior is entirely irrational and unfounded.

>>115584
People said terrible things about Outissa, and they weren't told by the author to fuck off. They were told by the character that she wouldn't listen to them anymore.

People frequently expressed hatred of Beatrix, and suggested that yinglets should be removed. Again, no action against them by the author.

People straight up insulted the author, the story, and its legitimacy, and the author never lost their cool. I was also one of the people trying to explain to them what was actually happening, and the rationale behind it, by the way.

I do not understand how two posts explaining to Aubrey why she is being a selfish idiot and a bad friend are somehow worse than any of those things, or why Raptie should care at all. It's utterly hypocritical.

>>115580
Okay well, what you need to understand is that this entire place originates from a place called 4chan. I came here from a cesspool where it's barely considered rude to call somebody a gigantic flaming faggot, because that behavior is normalized. I came from a community that considers freedom of speech to be something important.

This is the sort of place where you can post about dog porn and not have to censor yourself for somebody else's delicate sensibilities. It's the kind of place where a suggester should be able to say whatever they want to characters, and deal with the in-quest consequences, without worrying about people getting triggered because they are being... rude? Really?

So I guess what I'm saying is that if free speech is banned from this quest, I guess I won't be following it anymore. So Outissa just lost one of the voices objectively trying to help her.

See ya.
>>
No. 28684 ID: 2870fe

>>115591
>yinglets hatred, no action from author
>>/questarch/817867

>objectively trying to help Outissa
But you see, this isn't XenoQuest. Aubrey is the protagonist here and Outissa is just an offscreen character. You may be trying to help Outissa, but that means you're not really trying to help Aubrey. I think you may be looking at the quest from a wrong perspective. Wanting Aubrey to feel remorse is a very tricky thing because the means through which you accomplish that are quite important.
>>
No. 28685 ID: 41c9bc

>>115594
>>/questarch/817867
You've proven one of my points wrong and I respect and recognize that. Thank you for informing me of my misinformation.
>>
No. 28686 ID: c4f9fa

>>115590
You're welcome to feel that it is absurd. That's your opinion.

Regardless, those are the rules. You're not going to change my mind.
>>
No. 28687 ID: c4f9fa

>>115591

You posted deliberately hurtful comments, which you then took pride in doing. Multiple people expressed displeasure at you doing so, including the quest author , and instead of listening, you just dug your heels in.

Dude, you're not being some sort of hero here.

You're being an asshole.
>>
No. 28688 ID: b87366

Look, I pledged to Laertes way back before we knew his real name and I was one of the harsher voices out there, who honestly played for the bad guy initially because I found it intriguing, and his level of bad as well as the protagonist's trustworthiness weren't yet established. I argued strongly in favor of supporting Laertes, and also was critical of Raptie. You won't see me doing that yet in this quest because that isn't how this is currently being run. Raptie only recently introduced Khoros as a presence in this quest so up until now I've viewed this more like an Aardvark quest than a Xeno. We are not splintered voices of a broken chorus, but just the meandering thoughts of a fairly complicated aardvark gal. If the quest takes another turn, then we'll see about getting our evil on, but right now talking like that just feels like very unhealthy thinking on the part of Aubrey. She has her own demons, and we don't currently have license to release them.
>>
No. 28689 ID: c4f9fa

>>115599
"We are not splintered voices of a broken chorus, but just the meandering thoughts of a fairly complicated aardvark gal."

This was worded so perfectly that I'm actually tearing up. Thank you.
>>
No. 28690 ID: 41c9bc
File
Removed

>>115597
I respect people who can make rational arguments and point out legitimate faults in my reasoning or information, as Delian did. If they do, I change my reasoning. You have done neither. Your logic is flawed.

I'm blunt, I'm brutal, and I have no qualms about being thus, because the truth is something that needs to be said, whether it hurts or not - even especially if it hurts. And confronting that through an ice cold eye is an important part of growing up. It is the only way we can solve the problems people would rather ignore.

I did a lot of growing up on 4chan, because people weren't afraid to call me a retard and a faggot when I did something stupid. And looking back, I was both a retard and a faggot. It was a lesson I needed to learn to move forward as a person.

I am an asshole? Some would call that a negative trait, but I like it. Keeps me honest. And I love myself.

All I have left to say.
>>
No. 28692 ID: ed67d9

>>115601
You know what the number 1 rule of TGchan is?

"Don't be an asshole."

It's there. In the rules.

You've admitted to not just breaking the rule, but doing so willfully and with no remorse.

You're not welcome here. Goodbye.
>>
No. 28693 ID: 3ce125

Raptie, would you say you're more protective of Aubrey than Outissa?
>>
No. 28694 ID: ed67d9

>>115605
No.

I'm honestly equally protective of all of my characters.

When people crossed the line in XQ a couple times to get actually abusive at Outissa, I took action. In that case, it resulted in deleted posts.
>>
No. 28695 ID: 4d6cc0

>this place came from 4chan

oh for fuck's sakes, this is why I was all onboard with the quest.lv rename

This is a splinter board that splintered away from 4chan in late 2009, it has been close to eight years since then, and many of the original old guard have long since left or lost interest or been so shit they got banned.

Maybe read the rules next time. Fuck, why do I even care, I'm not staff anymore. How long have you been here and not worked out that (codified in the site rules) quest authors have absolute say regarding their threads??? You've clearly been here long enough to trot out 4chan as an excuse (newsflash: fewer and fewer of new posters on this board are coming straight from 4chan) and why am I even jumping on a bandwagon to shout at this guy.

4chan has a quest board now, go there.
>>
No. 28696 ID: 41c9bc

>>115603
I have examined and described your statements and reasoning as being flawed, but I never attacked your (you, the person) character or directed a curse word at you until you crossed that line first, and even then barely so. You have repeatedly attacked my character, thrown curse words at me, and insulted me; me, the person, not a fictional character. Simply because I chose to present my case on the points of storytelling, conscience, and free speech.

These include insinuations that I frighten you in some way ( >>115575 )
To insinuating a lack of empathy ( >>115574 )
To literal namecalling ( >>115597 )
Yet you somehow think I'm the one breaking the 'asshole rule'?

I am an asshole, I have an abrasive personality, and I was an asshole to a character. When you asked me to stop, I tried to understand the reasoning behind that decision through civilized discussion. Instead I was verbally assaulted and ordered around for daring to question something or speak freely.

>>115608
Been here 6 years. I'm not questioning Raptie's authority in her story, I'm not going to participate in them anymore if I'm not wanted. I tried to explain my point of view and the reasons behind it in a civil manner, and the response was blown quite out of proportion.
>>
No. 28697 ID: 4d6cc0

you don't really get to tell others that they're not frightened of you, that's not really how that works
>>
No. 28699 ID: 673643

>Yet you somehow think I'm the one breaking the 'asshole rule'?
>I am an asshole
OK, don't.

Look this is very simple. You did something that someone had a negative reaction to and now you're going on trying to justify why you did the thing that you yourself have just said involved being an asshole.

Don't be an asshole.
>>
No. 28700 ID: 41c9bc

>>115610
I didn't, I explained that it is an attack on my character by insinuating that I am something to be afraid if, ie. dangerous.

>>115612
I was, in the process of roleplaying a fictional voice that does not exist, an asshole to a fictional entity that does not exist. In turn I was continually verbally assaulted by someone who somehow believes that I was an asshole to them, when I was in fact not.
>>
No. 28701 ID: 41c9bc

>>115606
In XQ thread 2, I made a post stating that Outissa was being useless and that Khoros was more competent. It was neither deleted nor was it pointed out as something you believed I had done wrong. This sets a precedent wherein I did the exact same thing, and it yielded an entirely different result.
>>
No. 28702 ID: 4d6cc0

have you considered perhaps not digging that hole in you're in any deeper by trying to use reason to solve an emotional issue here

This isn't a court of law, you don't gotta use your freeper rationale to try and win the argument of not being an asshole

(spoilers: your insistence on using logic in this spat is making you look like even more of an asshole, hth)
>>
No. 28703 ID: 41c9bc

>>115615
>your insistence on using logic in this spat is making you look like even more of an asshole, hth
How? I don't understand how trying to be reasonable makes me more of an asshole than reacting emotionally.

(You want you gone, quest author wants you gone, take it elsewhere.)
>>
No. 28704 ID: efd8b8

>>115616
Because you're trying to use that to discredit people and you're using logic to defend emotional manipulation.

That's where this all started.
"I think a voice of conscience should be harsh."
"Emotional manipulation like that is reprehensible."
>>
No. 28705 ID: 41c9bc

>>115617
If it's the character's own internal thoughts by word of God, was it ever emotional manipulation in the first place? Or was it merely introspection? Guilt?

It makes me physically ill to contemplate wasting time when somebody needs me. If you want me to make an appeal based on emotional reasoning, that is how much the decision to abandon a friend affects me. Trying to contemplate the logic behind it makes me feel physically sick to the stomach. My heart beats faster, and my head hurts a little bit as the possibilities of what could possibly have gone wrong in my absence run through my head over and over, bashing themselves into my brain and not letting me think about anything else. That's why I'm still here despite trying to pull myself away, again and again, that thought drives me back. That's why I need to understand why.
>>
No. 28706 ID: a363ac

>>115618
If you went to someone for help and that someone said "wow you idiot why didn't you do it this way. No even better just go away and let this other person do it." how would you feel. this argument isn't about logic it's about not being an asshole to people just cause they do silly things that you don't like.
>>
No. 28707 ID: 91ee5f

>>115618
You already said that you don't want to be a part of this quest anymore and that's fine. But if you keep this up, you're gonna get yourself banned from all the quests on this site.

So please, leave this quest like you said you were going to do before you can't be a part of any quests.
>>
No. 28708 ID: 69fef8

I've only read chapter 1 XQ and haven't seen the actual offending suggestion(s), so call me out on any mistakes

So as an outsider, I'm seeing that the 41c9bc guy made a harsh reprimand to one of the characters' actions, to which the other suggestors (and maybe Raptie) called them out on for being extreme.

41c9bc responds with their reasoning behind the suggestion, to which everyone else maintains that it's still extreme, giving reasons of their own while maybe getting annoyed/frustrated that 41c9bc is defending the suggestion and throwing insults into the mix.
At some point, Raptie expresses distress and asks of everyone that such harsh criticism be directed only at the story's antagonists, if anyone.

41c9bc, probably feeling slighted at the outcry, keeps explaining their reasons, basically boiling down to "the criticism was meant to be harsh, it seemed in-character to me, I'd said things in a similar manner before and didn't get in trouble for it. I don't think it's extreme because there was no swearing or lengthy speech about how the character sucks."

>>115618
I think you and everyone else need to take a step back from this for a while.
From looking over previous comments in the discussion alone, you're clearly invested in the story, and with this last comment it's clear you were doing what you thought/felt was appropriate.
As for the comment, you have both your fellow suggestors and the author telling you it was extreme, you've said your reasons and they still don't agree, to the point of clear frustration.
It has nothing to do with being your trying to be a constructive asshole or reasonable, you said something that was hurtful to Raptie whether you meant to or not, who has since said (via word of god) that the comment was not merited and (it and any future ones like it) not appreciated, in or out of character.

>to everyone else
I think this argument has gotten a bit out of hand, just agree to disagree and move on, there's no point getting in a tizzy beyond the actual event. Everyone has made their points and knows where they stand.
>>
No. 28713 ID: 2120ee

It's kind of moot now, but my objection was to the idea that quest authors, who have authority over their own threads, have the authority to request that objectionable content be treated in a specific manner in threads, new or old, outside of those threads they have control over.

Making a new thread to showcase content an author objects to isn't something an author should reasonably be empowered to dictate.
>>
No. 28714 ID: c9f250

>>28713

Yeah, that was never the intention. Just getting the posts out of the quest's discussion thread.



For clarity's sake I deleted a couple posts that were about making a specific questdis thread, that's all gone now, just BDA2: BDA.
>>
No. 28715 ID: c9f250

Also I really need to fix the unicorn generator.
>>
No. 28716 ID: 41c9bc

>>28706
If we were intended to be the thoughts of Aubrey, an interpretation the quest author herself accepted as well-put, she did not seek us for help. We were supposed to be her. And from that perspective, my post was not invalid as a manifestation of introspective guilt, even if the original context of the post was something slightly different (a harsh chastisement intended to evoke guilt and a sense of responsibility that was evidently lacking). From my perspective, Aubrey was acting in a way that was unacceptable and in need of management, be it internal or external.

>>28708
Your assessment is sound.

I have little further to say on the matter, honestly, aside pointing out peoples' last few misinterpretations of things because people being misinformed is something that needs to be corrected, whether it's me or someone else.

Part of the reason I came back again and followed Cirr's advice of approaching things emotionally rather than rationally was because Cirr is someone I respect. Having Cirr call me out made me go back and try to look at it again. I prefer to approach things from an objective standpoint, because I have anger problems - mainly directed at the selfishness of people. It helps detach from the things that make me upset if I can examine them critically from an outside angle, or as elements of a narrative. Cirr felt that this approach was making the situation worse, so I tried following that advice and going back over to the emotional side of thinking.

That made me feel sick, and I'm quite done with opening that door. I'd much rather go back to being an objective observer.

I also hate spilling my guts at people, because I believe in what the image I posted (that was deleted) says. Forcing other people to tiptoe around and deal with one's emotions is an expression of one's inability to do so oneself. It makes me feel weak.

Regardless, the XQ discussion thread was not the place for this. Separating it removes it from Raptie's sight where it doesn't need to bother her, and allows others to examine it as a case study of what not to do in a situation of social conflict - both sides made mistakes here, whether they're willing to admit it or not. Perhaps it will serve to help someone achieve a deeper understanding of something, or something.
>>
No. 28717 ID: efd8b8

>>28714
Thanks for clearing that up.
>>
No. 28718 ID: ed67d9

>>28716
Here is an actual, legitimate, not-trolling question.

What are your thoughts on Laertes? Before the whole Khoros reveal thing?
>>
No. 28719 ID: 41c9bc

>>28718
Laertes as his own entity?

Well, the moment he declared that raping his own daughter for the entertainment of the suggesters was the reward for siding with him, I decided that no matter what I didn't ever want to let him win. Particularly given Outissa's reaction to the subject of rape, which suggested that it would not be the first time this happened.

In summary, I found him to be utterly abhorrent.
>>
No. 28720 ID: ed67d9

>>28719
The insinuation of rape aside, what about his tactics in general?

Also, which poster were you? I'm having trouble figuring that out.
>>
No. 28721 ID: 41c9bc

>>28720
My IP changed once or twice, I think. I might have got a new modem sometime during XQ, and then again just recently when I moved to go back to school.

Here is the example of the post where I did more or less the same thing to Outissa, but it wasn't really commented on or singled out ( >>/questarch/816064 )
This was also before I knew Khoros was the very person I was trying to fight against, of course.

Laertes reminded me of Dr. Doom in a lot of ways, though perhaps less redeemable (though that also depends on who's writing Doom in a particular story). Powerful, connected, dangerous, and arrogant. As a villain he was frighteningly competent, particularly since he was able to turn a good number of suggesters to his side. A few of them I recall stating that they saw Laertes as a more interesting character than Outissa, and they wanted to see more of him instead. I guess I can see that. He had a strong charismatic presence in his mannerisms, a really hammy-yet-polite-but-definitely-evil sort of villain.


It might also help to clarify that I didn't intend to continue having my voice be cruel and oppressive. Even before it was revealed that we were a part of Khoros, I felt like it would add something if I played out some character development during the quest, since the voices had already been established as actual actors acting on things with their own goals and motivations. The big revelation just kind of rooted a lot of concepts I'd been playing around with.

Khoros clearly has control issues, so I made the persona of the fragment a bit controlling, overbearing, even cruel at times. It feels a lot better to have a character start off with a lot of negative traits, a lot of room to grow as a person, but give them that little kernel of good to build off of - in this case, a strong sense of loyalty towards Outissa. That way a gradual change over time becomes something a person can look back on and feel proud over having pulled off (or find they did poorly and use that to become better at writing that sort of thing). To go back and see the key points where a certain event changed a character's perspective, made them more empathetic, helped them become more than what they were.

Essentially, I like to see and act out a character growing and learning. I don't like to be static. Though it's left up to player interpretation as to what Paarthurnax's true goals were (dragon in Skyrim, on the chance you've never heard of the character), I feel like his most overused quote fits my intentions for that character growth well.

"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"

In effect, I got the idea in my head to be the opposite of the Laertes persona, a sort of poetic inverse. Where he was affable and sadistic, I wanted to be brutal and caring. Where he was charismatic and elaborate, I wanted to be abrasive and efficient. Where he wanted to hurt under the guise of helping, I wanted to struggle to help despite an instinctive cruelty. Where he was guilty of severe betrayals of trust, I wanted to be unfailingly loyal.
>>
No. 28722 ID: c31aac

>>28721
your mediocrity truly knows no bounds
>>
No. 28723 ID: c31aac

HOWEVER, I'm gonna go on in and say yeah, putting this much stock in what people say to your fictional characters is a bit weird.

Learn to keep some extent of separation between you and said characters, even if they're kind of a stand-in for yourself the universal rule of "Everyone's a critic" will always apply and trying to combat that is kind of a futile gesture at best and actively drives away readerbase at its worst.

See also: Dominic Deegan, that one blue bear dude on deviantart, the guy who directed the ghostbusters reboot

Try to avoid being these people for everyone's sake, especially your own.
>>
No. 28724 ID: 2120ee

Yeah that's lame dude.
>>
No. 28725 ID: 41c9bc

>>28724
>>28722
Every experience helps to build the greater whole. If an approach is ineffective, it is a lesson for next time. So if I am mediocre, then I am content with mediocrity, for now.
>>
No. 28726 ID: 3ce125

>>28725
Ugh, I hate false philosophy.
You said before you have to confront truth with an ice cold eye, but you're not confronting it at all. You're just going "ok, this is a problem." and then not doing anything about it. Accepting that you have problems is only the first step on becoming a better person. Do something about your problems!
>>
No. 28727 ID: ed67d9

>>28723
The implication here is that the only reason I stomp down on abuse towards characters is because I'm "too attached to them."

That is false.

I stomp down on it because if you don't then people will think it's okay and they'll just keep escalating until it becomes a serious problem.
>>
No. 28728 ID: ed67d9

And for the record, I'm proud of how "attached" I get to the characters I make. If I'm that passionate, then maybe it will express itself through my works, and other people will pick up on it and get just as invested as I am.

If you guys honestly, actually think that I'm not willing to put my characters through hell, then I have no clue what quests you've been reading, but they sure ain't mine.
>>
No. 28729 ID: c31aac

>>28727
I think a better approach in the future would be to just go "Hey I don't want this tone in my work, please don't suggest that way." As opposed to "Oh no, my characters are gonna get upset." One will trigger internet nerds and the other (probably) wont, since people are understanding more often than not when red flags aren't waving and alarms aren't blaring.
>>
No. 28730 ID: ed67d9

>>28729
What? Did you see what I actually said?

>>/quest/829901

It's not at all what you're insinuating.
>>
No. 28731 ID: 3ce125

>>28727
I think the implication was that your response in questdis was uh... emotional. Which it was.
>>
No. 28732 ID: 41c9bc

>>28726
You believe that my approach to character development is mediocre, but it is also thus far a statistically inadequate sample size. It is being taken into account, but the opinion of two to three people is not something to base my life and beliefs around on a dime. That is simply being a doormat.

>I hate false philosophy.
Why?
>>
No. 28733 ID: 760205

>>28726
I agree. Rather than address things, you doubled down: claiming that it was your right to be an asshole because you've been here longer. For someone who's attempting to look at things with a cold clinical eye you rely on a lot of logical fallacies and spent a great deal of effort to tell a quest author how their character how they are allowed to let their character feel.
approaching things from an emotionally detached standpoint doesn't make for a good argument when you still are unable to acknowledge the other persons point of view. Having an emotional reaction doesn't make someone weak.
>>
No. 28734 ID: 760205

Let me put it another way: in a debate the real goal isnt to be right, its to communicate your point of view to someone else. Emotions are an effective tool for doing so. Once someone sees your point of view they're more inclined to understand your overall meaning. Learning to empathize with another persons point of view goes a long way towards dealing with that anger. Just relying on clinical logic, particularly faulty logic at that, make you an asshole and you've been here long enough to know the rules

Also do some research on free speech before using it as a defense on the internet. You're operating on a privately run website and are subject to thier terms if service. Believe it or not this is true for 4chan as well. Its within thier free speech rights to remove your comments or deny you access based off their code of conduct. Legally, All free speech means is you cant be arrested for saying things. Using like some kind of "get out of asshole jail" card is just embarrassing. You're still responsible for what you say, claiming otherwise makes your argument sound childish
>>
No. 28735 ID: 41c9bc

>>28733
>claiming that it was your right to be an asshole because you've been here longer
False. I explained my origins under the belief that it would help Ratie to understand my perspective better.

>spent a great deal of effort to tell a quest author how their character how they are allowed to let their character feel
The quest author and other suggesters tried to tell me how I'm allowed to feel, what I'm allowed to say, and put forth misinterpretations about how I think. Of course I pushed back.

>approaching things from an emotionally detached standpoint doesn't make for a good argument when you still are unable to acknowledge the other persons point of view
If the other person never explains their point of view and why they view things that way, how can I interpret and acknowledge it? You can look at a brick wall, and know what the exterior of the brick wall looks like, but you don't know what's on the other side if there's no window.

>Having an emotional reaction doesn't make someone weak
I have very strong emotional reactions, but I've had to learn to control them. I strive to distance myself to keep me functional in day to day life. And I don't like to lose, so a failure to maintain that healthy distance leads to a feedback loop of vitriol being directed at vitriol being directed at failure.

It's possible that in dealing with Aubrey, I let myself slip a little too far into the persona of the character I was trying to portray. This resulted in cracks in that foundation of stoicism and ultimately a collapse of control.
>>
No. 28736 ID: 41c9bc

>>28734
>in a debate the real goal isnt to be right, its to communicate your point of view to someone else
You are fundamentally correct, yes, but I prefer not to let people keep running on false information. Examples being >>28670 and >>28706 which were at their core based on 'facts' that didn't exist. I did not tell Aubrey to kill herself, nor did Aubrey ask us for help.

Essentially, they were accusing me based on things that never actually happened.

>Emotions are an effective tool for doing so. Once someone sees your point of view they're more inclined to understand your overall meaning.
But if YOU let yourself see what THEY are saying through an emotional lens, you will always color it with your own emotions. You will never understand the other person. Raptie believed that what I said came from a place of malice, and that malice was all she was able to see.

>Learning to empathize with another persons point of view goes a long way towards dealing with that anger
The two parties need to actually engage in dialogue for that to happen. I was hoping this discussion around Laertes would continue, because that seemed to be what was happening.

>Also do some research on free speech before using it as a defense on the internet
It's not a defense, it's what I believe in, and knowing what I believe in is important when understanding where the differences in our logic lie.

>You're still responsible for what you say, claiming otherwise makes your argument sound childish
I just didn't believe that what I said meant what other people thought it meant. I understood what other people saw, but it didn't seem like they really understood what I was saying, and in communication that's a problem.
>>
No. 28737 ID: 2870fe

>>28735
>The quest author and other suggesters tried to tell me how I'm allowed to feel.
Nope. If you said, "this thing that happened made me feel this way", everything would be fine. You're free to feel however you want.
But what you actually said was, "the character is this and that because this and that happened.", and this is not ok.

This is called projecting. And what you're doing is, you're projecting your feelings onto the character. This is no longer "your right" and it's entirely at the discretion of the author if she or the character will accept this. In this case, she did not.

You say that you control your emotions. I say you're far from it heh.
>>
No. 28738 ID: 41c9bc

>>28737
Several people tried to tell me that I was feeling guilt wrong, and that it's not supposed to hurt when you feel guilty.
>>
No. 28739 ID: ed67d9

>>28738
Question:

On a scale from 1 (agree very little) to 7 (agree a whole lot), to what extent do you agree with this statement: "I am a narcissist." (Note: The word "narcissist" means egotistical, self-focused, and vain.)
>>
No. 28740 ID: 3ce125

>>28739
>from 1 to 7
Excuse me do you have a problem with the number 10
>>
No. 28741 ID: 41c9bc

>>28739
Probably a 2 at most. I'm rather irrelevant to the world as a whole, and under no delusions that it revolves around me. If I died tomorrow, friends and family would be affected, but the world at large wouldn't really change because of it.

I do have OCD, but it's minor. I've seen people who have to slam the door seven times before they can take a dump. I had a few similar compulsions when I was younger, but I kicked them years ago. Though my need to point out when people are incorrect about something is likely due to that quality.
>>
No. 28753 ID: 9876c4

Could the latent ability of furries to create drama from nothingness be used as an energy source? What sort of apparatus would be needed to collect the drama?

Scientific curiosity only, of course.
>>
No. 28754 ID: 41c9bc

>>28753
Whatever they use to make power from the kinetic energy of those hamster wheel generators, take it and apply it to keyboards so that every keystroke helps power your computer. Then every time somebody has a big internet argument, it will save a minute bit of power.
>>
No. 28755 ID: ee43ea

Allow me to open the pleasant and polite discussion on the subject of Coxwette, its fans, and its characters.

ahem

Julia is a terrible person, an abusive waifu, and needs to be gotten rid of as soon as possible.
>>
No. 28756 ID: 681713

>>28755
I mean, I agree, but RML seems to like her, and naileD is naileD, so she's sticking around regardless of what the players want, it seems. QM fiat.
>>
No. 28757 ID: d4516a

>>28755
>>28756
Outside of a sudden reverend attack, I don't really see a way for just getting rid of her under these circumstances anyway. Not much fiat involved.

Also, the one time RML commented on Julia, she seemed pretty neutral about her.
>>
No. 28758 ID: 681713
28758

>>28757
For the removal of Julia, it's mostly about people not wanting to risk her recklessness and irregular behavior along with her abrasive personality for people whom we've already come to know and appreciate. There's really not a whole lot more to it than that, and frankly I believe it's a perfectly fine justification as far as player behavior goes.

As for saying RML likes her, it's more an 'actions are louder than words' interpretation, in my book, as well as a few snippets of things I've seen in the IRC. RML appears determined to force (and I don't use that harshly negatively, I just can't think of a better word) Julia onto the players and make us deal with her. In video game terms, she would be an invulnerable/plot critcal NPC kinda like in Elder Scrolls, where killing her would break the story path that RML has in mind, so she just refuses to allow it. She's taken command of Chuck's actions away from the players before, so its not like I'm particularly offended, I'm just looking at it or at least trying to look at it alll from a distance.

RML's quest is one of the more directed Quests that I've played, where it's very clear that QM has a very specific story in mind, and it will be executed regardless of player input.

In a general way, it doesn't appear to be a matter of 'Okay, this is the base setting, these things will happen and the player makes the story by responding to them however they like.' As in most quests. Coxwette is more 'Okay, this is the story that will happen, and this is how the character will respond. What the player does is simply modify how effectively or not they respond to it.'

Now, that may not necessarily be accurate as to RML is trying to do, but it certainly looks that way, which I would say is more important. This causes conflict to arrive, especially in this case where basically the story is going in a direction a large number of the players really really really don't want it to go. Death of the Author, as much as I honestly loathe the concept, is very much in play here, I would guess.

At this point, I would personally recommend that if she's hell-bent on keeping Julia around, then she really honestly should just make anything involving Julia a cutscene that cannot be voted on in any way whatsoever. Like, seriously, just fast-forward literally everything until Julia has exited the scene. Her presence has basically shattered the playerbase into pieces. We had disagreements and arguements before, but never anything so vicious or so lasting before she came along.

This was a long and rambling and I'm sorry. I tried to remain polite.
>>
No. 28759 ID: d4516a

>>28758
>I tried to remain polite.
From what I've understood of this thread, you really wouldn't have needed to.

I'm not really sure how much of railroading there's involved in here, anyway: any possible way to remove Julia from the story - kick her out, kill her, etc. - seems to be the sort that even those that don't like her would rather not go for, and if we did, it'd break the story to even smaller pieces for everyone involved. Railroading or not, we're pretty much stuck with her.
>>
No. 28760 ID: 681713

>>28759
Might not have needed to, but I wanted to.

And most people who wanted to get her out of the story simply wanted to leave her be and let nature take its course, whatever that might end up manifesting as. When it appeared she was forcing herself on us, then people voted to try and punch her to perhaps either knock her out so we can run, or maybe influence her to run away.

Incidentally, I would consider this to be railroading, personally, even if it's to avoid an obvious bad ending. The fact that despite all the players ideas for getting rid of her, she's staying under QM orders means that she's plot relevant and has a reason for being- and I think most players realize that, but dismiss it just because her personality is just that bad. But, as I said earlier, the entire Quest is more directed than most- RML has a particular story she wants to tell come hell or high water, and we don't really have control of the main story path, just how well prepared we arrive to the key story points. Julia is apparently one of those key story points. So like you said, we're stuck with her.
>>
No. 28761 ID: 2120ee

>>28760
That's dumb. Your argument is that because the players don't want to do something, they're being railroaded.

The only thing RML vetoed was uncharacteristic, and frankly unjustified, violence on the part of Chuck.

Past that's, it's all the majority of players not wishing to pursue courses of action. Marginalizing or abandoning Julia is eminently achievable; the constraints on the ease with which we could achieve that were all consequences of our decisions. Being trapped in the warehouse with additional people we did not want to abandon was a consequence of our decisions. Conceivably, we could have prevented the well from being sealed had we wished to invest in doing so. Options existed, paths not travelled, etc, etc.

You're basically arguing that because RML does not alter game world realities in order to facilitate our desires (that do not even have consistent majority support), that she is railroading. It's absurd and childish.
>>
No. 28762 ID: 681713

>>28761
>The only thing RML vetoed was uncharacteristic, and frankly unjustified, violence on the part of Chuck. 

I mean, I agree with that and don't have a problem with it. It makes sense.

>Past that's, it's all the majority of players not wishing to pursue courses of action. Marginalizing or abandoning Julia is eminently achievable; the constraints on the ease with which we could achieve that were all consequences of our decisions. 

I'm not so certain if I agree with the entirety of it given end results, but I can see the logic behind the argument.

>You're basically arguing that because RML does not alter game world realities in order to facilitate our desires (that do not even have consistent majority support), that she is railroading. 

This, I didn't really mean to come off as it did apparently. What I've stated wasn't in Anger, it was more just an observation of her particular QMing style, which I personally believe is just as valid as any other. The point I was trying to make is that her style is different than the norm, which generally, yes, is a bit more flexible in regards to how the world behaves vis-a-vie player desires. This difference is causing a bit of cognitive dissonance in how players approach problems and generally I believe to be the source of all this drama. Basically she's not QMing how they expect, so people are getting mad and it can be perceived as railroading. Again though, I don't think her style is bad. It's just different. Different doesn't automatically equal bad. Personally, I'm mostly indifferent to the whole thing.

>It's absurd and childish.

That's just mean. Still I apologize if I came off like that.
>>
No. 28764 ID: be0718

>>28755
>Julia is a terrible person,
Sure.
>an abusive waifu,
Nah.
>and needs to be gotten rid of as soon as possible.
Nope.

The first point doesn't justify the third, and the second doesn't really use the term properly. Would her relationship with Chuck be abusive? We don't know. We haven't been privy to any of it. Has she abused people? Yes. However, that doesn't merit capital punishment.
If Chuck's going to be a hero, he doesn't get to be a hero selectively. He's going to save whoever he can, and 'can' is very different from 'wants'. And before anyone says 'but Julia can't be saved', as far as physically rescuing her goes she can.
>>
No. 28765 ID: ee43ea

>>28764
You misunderstand.

>If Chuck's going to be a hero, he doesn't get to be a hero selectively. He's going to save whoever he can, and 'can' is very different from 'wants'. And before anyone says 'but Julia can't be saved', as far as physically rescuing her goes she can.
I'm mostly talking about her being removed from the out-of-character standpoint: it's not Chuck that should get rid of her, but rather the plot. RML should pull some stops to make her go away regardless of Chuck's heroism, without him having to be stained by the ordeal. It doesn't look like this is going to be the case, unfortunately.

>the second doesn't really use the term properly
It does, actually. Look at the definition of "waifu": it's a virtual, non-real girl that one would love to date. In this case she's definitely naileD's "waifu" in the very correct use of the term, someone he'd love to fuck or at least see Chuck fuck.

Now look at how vehemently naileD's been defending her. Look at all these flimsy justifications to very real crimes and abuse. "She's not as bad as you think!", "I can change her", "I don't care if she's hurt people", and what have you - all very real excuses people in abusive relationships give.

Julia is such a terrible person that it's reaching out through the screen and into real life. She's bound naileD into her charm. She's hurting him.
>>
No. 28766 ID: be0718

>>28765
From an OOC standpoint, I still don't think Julia needs to be removed by the author. People just need to deal with characters they don't like in a more genteel fashion. (For example, ignoring them, or chastising them, or fucking both of their roommates while they watch. Purely hypothetical situations, of course.)
From a meta strategy standpoint, she also isn't unmanageable to the point where she is likely to get someone else killed.
Julia has done nothing to Delian, that is all self-inflicted. It's unfortunate but understandable if your perception of the character has been tainted by one of her proponents.
>>
No. 28767 ID: eda54c
File 150655027366.png - (0.99KB , 174x69 , The Hif Eyes.png )
28767

Hello
>>
No. 28772 ID: 681713

>>28771
I imagine he's exaggerating to make a point. That being that you come off willing to risk a lot of friends' safety and security just to get into Julia's pants. Which you kind of do. Come off that way I mean. Even if that's not your intention, that's how your phrasing and general extensive attempts at exclamation come off to several individuals. Myself included.
>>
No. 28773 ID: eda54c

I am now going to write a post about artistic integrity and how it WILL apply to YOUR SUCCESS as a creator.

First of all, it is very important for YOU to ever have a lasting impact, and for YOU to have fans who are truly LOYAL to your work. It is important for the way people view YOU, respect YOU, and expose themselves to YOUR work (whether or not YOU want to believe that doesn't matter, this concept has proven itself time and time again through history). Think of it like running a business, though of course this is a very different business than most other businesses and until YOUR BRAND is reaching MILLIONS (not 1 million, not 1.5 million, 2 million and beyond) YOU want to have GOOD BUSINESS. Why? BECAUSE GOOD BUSINESS BRINGS GOOD BUSINESS, and BAD BUSINESS BRINGS BAD BUSINESS. What kind of image do YOU want to have as a creator? Someone who appreciates everything from all of YOUR fans (minus hateful/racist/bigoted fans who will bring BAD BUSINESS) or someone who believes certain fans of YOUR work are less IMPORTANT than others? Do YOU want to be known as a creator who STANDS BY their work, or cowards away and tries to hide (some may say even CENSOR) when somebody points out certain aspects of YOUR work? What possible reason would ANY creator have in doing something as silencing CRITICISM, STORY IRRELEVANT FANART, or STORY RELEVANT FANART of a character or setting within their creation? That, is BAD BUSINESS. It MAKES YOU LOOK BAD. When you have a fanbase of a number that is under 5,000 (for example, this site has under 5,000 unique users). If story relevant fanart of something YOU made makes YOU SO UNCOMFORTABLE that YOU HAVE IT CENSORED, WHETHER OR NOT it is a LIGHT-HEARTED PARODY, NO MATTER THE THEMATIC CONTENT, YOU have BAD ARTISTIC INTEGRITY, which will GET YOU NOWHERE. Because guess what? The fact that YOU DID THAT will NEVER GO AWAY, because NOTHING GOES AWAY ON THE INTERNET.

How about if YOUR fans aren't satisfied with YOUR work? Do you ALTER it to fit THEIR vision, or do you keep going with the VISION that YOU had ORIGINALLY intended? Do YOUR fans PAY YOU for YOUR work AS YOU make it? Do YOUR fans pay for the work after it is COMPLETELY FINISHED? Do they pay for it AT ALL? If YOUR fans PAY YOU for your work AS YOU make it, then YES, BEND OVER BACKWARDS FOR THEM, as there is no difference between YOUR fans ACTIVELY COMMISSIONING YOU for YOUR work. If they PAY YOU after it is a finished product, then YES but WITH CAUTION so as to NOT stray TOO FAR from the ORIGINAL product. IF your fans DO NOT PAY YOU, then YOU have ZERO REASON to do ANYTHING ELSE from what YOU WANT TO DO, UNLESS YOU WANT INPUT from YOUR fans.
>>
No. 28774 ID: c31aac

>>28773
I, also, LOVE to CAPITALIZE completely random WORDS in my various SENTENCES!
IT REALLY HELPS with readability, and ALSO GIVES my writing a HUGE BOOST TO IT'S rhythm!
It's NOT super obnoxious AT ALL!
>>
No. 28775 ID: 2edbd7

All of you are unsaintly and have IQs of less than 500.
>>
No. 28776 ID: be0718

>>28774
You are just jealous that you lack Tom's MANLY PHYSIQUE.
>>
No. 28779 ID: eda54c

>>28773
tl;dr

Love YOUR fans,
TRUST the love YOUR fans have for YOUR work,
---and most importantly---
STAND BY YOUR work.

Love,


The Hif Man

P.S. -- This is not a passive aggressive critical jab at any one individual on this site, those who receive my criticism do so directly, whether in public or in private. People who actually have a true passion for the things that they do on this site I, despite popular belief, have a lot of respect for. I'd hate to see behavior detrimental to popularity that can be found and brought up at any time by anyone if they so choose cause anyone who doesn't want their work to wane into forgotten obscurity to do that. Unfortunately, most don't want to hear it, why I don't know nor do I really care which is why I wrote this piece, to expose behavior that can be detrimental to success anywhere in entertainment that I have seen only grow worse here as time has passed. Follow it, and make things better for yourself and everybody who follows your work or don't.
>>
No. 28782 ID: 395c02

You may resume your talks in the Coxwette discussion thread. It's not longer under heavy moderation. Enjoy~
>>
No. 28784 ID: ee43ea

>>28782
>Enjoy~
I would, but I'm still banned from there. naileD, who is at the very least as guilty at bringing the quest and the discussion down as I am, is not banned. He even posted a blatant bait picture that was already deleted once.

I am annoyed by this outrageous favoritism.
>>
No. 28785 ID: b9b4da

>>28782
BDAs should stay in the BDA thread anyway.
>>
No. 28787 ID: 395c02

>>28784
I apologize. Delian was able to placate me on IRC and avoid my wrath, which gave him an unfair advantage over those who don't use IRC.

In future, I'll try to be more careful about keeping things on equal ground.

Ban is removed.
>>
No. 28788 ID: be0718

>>28787
That's less of an unfair advantage and more of a proactive stance towards ban appeals. IRC is easy to access - web clients are everywhere, not to mention it's mentioned/linked on the front page, the FAQ and elsewhere. You don't have to join the conversation, but if you don't want to use it even for contacting mods then that's your loss.
>>
No. 28789 ID: ee43ea

>>28788
This was the first time I heard IRC was even an option.
>>
No. 28790 ID: 2474dd

>>28789
I'm not here to argue but if you leave the frames on, over to the left there's a heading of "IRC" with TGChan's IRC Chat address. Just saying for future reference.
>>
No. 28792 ID: eda54c

We didn't come here to rock
We only came to disappoint you
'Cause deep down in your cunt
That's exactly what you wanted us to do
You wanted us to lead you on
You wanted us to bum you out
So you could build us up
And you could knock us down

If that's what gets your dick hard
Telling people they're bad at making art

You wanted to feel cheated
I guess we gave you what you needed
So, you're welcome
Don't worry about it
Just stay on the couch
Judge what other people do
Don't do anything for yourself
I'd hate to see it happen to you

If that's what gets your dick hard
Telling people they're bad at making art
Feeling just like you're the one in charge
Pissing on my most pathetic parts
>>
No. 28849 ID: b7e0a2

The skeleton key is a genuinely good movie.
>>
No. 28851 ID: 35089a

i dont understand what people have against pineapple pizza
>>
No. 28854 ID: b1b4f3

>>28851
I like it.
>>
No. 28856 ID: d4516a

>>28851
It's a discordant clash of tastes. Pineapple is sweet and juicy, where pizza is greasy and salty. Both of them are delicious in my opinion, separately, but if you put them together they come into conflict and fuck the whole thing up.
>>
No. 28858 ID: 5b93d3

>>120626
>if you understand how neural networks develop (both machine and natural) you can see how the amount of information they contain can easily become computationally impossible to monitor in its entirety
If you think that, you need to do a LOT more research into the fundamentals of how NNs and SLNNs work.
Because all NNs are software-based (all parameters, even for accelerated ASICs, are stored as variables. There are no physical axons or synapses or analogues) they are by definition perfectly model-able (it is the model that operates). And because the entire goal of NNs for commercial use is to produce a limited range of outputs using the minimal possible inputs, fully characterising a given NN is not a herculean task in the least.
> and so underhandedness can naturally develop unnoticed just as a part of efficiently achieving whatever they were set out to achieve.)
Please don't use Hollywood depictions of AIs as a foundation for thinking about how AIs work in reality. Movies and TV are hilariously bad at even approaching reasonable depictions of how AIs work. That's how you end up with pop-science nonsense like the "paperclip optimiser apocalypse", that assume an AI capable of extremely felxible heuristic reasoning, capable of applying that reasoning to areas far outside it's original training set, but incapable of applying that reasoning to it's own operation (and thus by definition NOT be a self-learning neural network but a static pre-trained one).
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No. 28859 ID: cdb7be

>>120634

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that I've been paying attention to dramatizations, it was more just the basic idea for example of poorly informed but insistent executives asking for the creation of far too generalised networks because they want to find as many answers to a generic question as possible. Yes it may be quite a lot further down the line until we can make something complex enough to unavoidably depend on self-monitoring, but it doesn't seem inconceivable that we would eventually be able to create AI SDKs that can be used to create even more arbitrary SDKs such that even the most inexperienced programmers are able to create their own applications that literally do anything within the computational ability available to them, regardless of their understanding of the results that might occur. I guess I'm talking about the automation of process creation mixed with human lack of understanding, like a "child picking up a power tool" kind of situation. I understand that a lot of these will have systems that say "you can't do x or y", but that becomes less dependable an assumption if you get more experienced but nevertheless still amateur (or even unlawful) programmers creating and releasing their own less restricted SDKs that don't have as many checks involved. I just mean as it becomes easier to automate intention, if someone doesn't have due consideration of the outcomes of what they're doing then they could create things that cause significant issues for everyone else. I'm entirely for the concept of AI itself, it's just that with any increase in general automation comes increased power, and we have to ensure that people are able to use that power responsibly.
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No. 28860 ID: 5b93d3

>>120640
There is no more chance of somebody accidentally creating an 'evil AI' out of ignorance than an untrained machinist accidentally creating an implosion-type thermonuclear device on a shop lathe.

The AI 'advances' of today are not magic. They are concepts developed decades ago and discarded as too inelegant or inefficient to be worth pursuing, but now are worth pursuing simply because vastly more computational power can be thrown at the problem now. Regardless of the shiny smartphone interfaces they are presented through, today's AIs are extremely special-purpose, very far from general purpose, and not 'self training'. Indeed, the current 'Deep Learning' industry is built around the dichotomy between computational devices for training (massive datacentres filled with GPUs or ASICs) and computational devices for inference (portable coprocessors that are effectively fixed-function and are the ones that actually get access to live inputs).
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No. 28970 ID: 2474dd

>There is no more chance of somebody accidentally creating an 'evil AI' out of ignorance than an untrained machinist accidentally creating an implosion-type thermonuclear device on a shop lathe.

Holy shit that sounds like the start of an amazing quest.
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No. 29083 ID: e52162
File 153671021637.jpg - (3.23MB , 3120x4160 , P_20180911_195429.jpg )
29083

I argue this is hurting children's artistic development
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No. 29170 ID: d5e7dd

>>29083
I think you might be onto something.


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