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No. 62615 ID: 5bf190

>>62603

Alright, so: Titans are super ridiculous powerful. Almost anything that it is possible to do, most Titans can do.

Each individual Titan, then, has their own particular nature: Autochthon is the Great Maker, Gaia does Life, the Ebon Dragon is the original Creature of Darkness, et cetera. Having a particular nature confers certain disadvantages: if you gave Gaia a steam engine she would go WHUH WHAT IS THIS and break it by accident or something, because anything synthetic is antithetical to her nature. But contrariwise, within the bounds of their particular nature, they can do literally anything, possible or not.

For an example from the Exalted source material: time is unbreakable. You can bend it to make time go faster or slower, or you can skip ahead, but you can't go back. What was done remains done. This is the ultimate order, the ultimate hierarchy: one moment follows another. But what ho, the one example of the past being messed with comes from She Who Lives In Her Name, who as the Principle of Hierarchy is specifically bound to these concepts. By destroying part of herself, she released flames which retroactively burnt things from existence from the moment they had come into existence. It was a subversion of her nature, which is why it was a self-violent act, but nevertheless part of her nature and so something that she, but not another Titan, was capable of doing in defiance of its impossibility.

So Saulanna can potentially do anything, with enough Titan's Will, if her eventual nature as a Titan encompasses whatever impossible thing she wants to do. And if said impossible ability is not countered by another Titan's impossible ability? But then it would probably just be a question of which Titan is stronger.
Expand all images
>>
No. 62620 ID: bf54a8

>>62613
well once tattooed our ability to GET titan's will would be basically gone, it would take AGES to get enough to do anything about the tats.
>>
No. 62630 ID: 44f93b

>>62620
I'm not in favor of getting the tattoos or anything, but your specific complaint is wrong.

The tattoos would essentially lock Saulanna's form- preventing us from spending TW to modify her body (so beauty increases would be out, for example). Also, the tattoos might arrange themselves to reveal our titanic nature.

None of that would stop us from getting TW, directly.
>>
No. 62632 ID: cee89f

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62630
There's also the potential risk that, if we go, the tattoos won't do jack, the Lunars will notice, and they will become suspicious. The real danger in that one is that we have NO IDEA what they would assume or how they'd react, but in almost all cases it would be bad.
>>
No. 62645 ID: f2c20c

Well, yeah. We're not getting tattoos. They would be really bad for us in pretty much every way.
>>
No. 62647 ID: dd287a

besides, we need a beauty increase at somepoint anyway, that diplomat lady has a higher rating than us, this will NOT STAND
>>
No. 62690 ID: cee89f

>>62647
That might just be the clothes. I am not ashamed to say that that dress/corset/thing is hot =3
>>
No. 62707 ID: 0426cd

I see a number of suggestions flying around taking only the element itself into account. If my understanding is correct (and do correct me if it is not) this is a bit of an oversight. We are specifically creating a feeding soul. All our feeding so far has been consumptive with souls and texts utterly devoured. Creating a feeding soul based on civilization, for example, won't just give us a soul with civilization-themed and oriented powers. (Though it will do that.) It will result in a devourer of civilization, making civilization our main power source. That's not to say we'll automatically turn into Ma-Ha-Suchi. It'll also be in our interest to seed and nourish civilizations before the harvest. Whether we'll feed in a ravenous, all-consuming frenzy or in a more careful, sustainable fashion will be our choice, after all.

Interpeting the suggestions so far in this light:

Devourer of Civilization: Lunars have long been in the civilization-seeding business, and Creation holds plenty of dysfunctional civilization to devour. Thematically it seems to fit well with our archeologist past and Wordblood's communication. Do we want to be deeply involved with the civilizations of Creation?
Devourer of Desire: This seems like it could turn creepy fast, regardless of whether we do this in a crass or complicated way. Feeding upon people's desires is what the fair folk do. Do we want to take after them?
Devourer of Light: So far we've spent all of our time in the shadows. And with a death hero as our vassal and the Dragon's shadow one of the major players of the world this seems likely to continue. Do we wish to hunt the light?
Devourer of Racoons: Cannibalism is always a fine choice. A racoon-rich diet is bound to be good for our souls. But will it be good for our cholesterol?
Devourer of Time: I'm not sure how one goes about feeding on time. Perhaps power will simply accumulate gradually, or perhaps we'll start doing strange things to the way it flows. Given the Dragon's use of such, it could certainly come in handy. Thematically, it fits with our penchant for old things. What does it mean to devour time?
Devourer of Will: Devouring will seems like something that would be frowned upon by people who don't live in names. It seems as if it would bring up some of the same issues as desire. Can we put such hunger to a use we consider constructive?
>>
No. 62709 ID: 44f93b

>>62707
You're oversimplifying it.

The element of the feeder soul is not just what it eats. It's potentially what it works with, makes, eats, is.

>>57924
>>57928
These posts here sort of give an idea of the somewhat unpredictable complexity of how the feeder purpose might interact with elements.

Additionally- the purpose of the feeder isn't even just to consume / produce energy. It's meant to regulate and manage energy as well.
>>
No. 62711 ID: 629257

>>62707
>devourer
But here's the thing: while a feeding soul of, say, the civilization element could perhaps consume that in some way, it doesn't have to. They aren't just about eating mortal souls, they are producers of titans will by any available means. It isn't about feeding on things it's about feeding us. It may just help us grow stronger around civilization, and gain more power as it spreads and grows. A soul or power related to the feeders element should give a greater return, but it wouldn't matter nearly as much as the raw power involved.

I think what we should be looking for are elements not only in our theme, but that don't overlap with the aspects of other titans or the gods. I'm not sure what the danger is there, anything from being less effective to getting those beings direct attention. But I'd rather not risk finding out.
>>
No. 62713 ID: 3dd855

>>62711
I see absolutely no reasons why Saulanna should care about any overlap between her souls and that of other Titans (and gods, but don't count because Saulanna is so far above them, metaphysically -- except for the Incarna, but their really weird). Everything is going to be expressed through the lens of Saulanna, after all, and the aspects of other Titans are expressed through the lens of those other Titans. There is nothing to be fought over, no finite pie that must be split between Titans. Why should having souls with similar Elements somehow inhibit Saulanna from attracting attention from other Titans? And, furthermore, why should Saulanna care at all?
>>
No. 62717 ID: cee89f

>>62707
Jukashi has stipulated that Feeding Souls can also gain power through things SPREAD by the user - For example, if our feeding soul was based on Death, we could gain power by committing genocide (a la Abyssals) or by 'consuming' death to bring people back to life. A Raccoon feeder could devour raccoons, or increase their population by a significant margin. A light feeder could consume light, or glow brightly.

Wordblood has consumed in part because he is the very concept of Communication (which books essentially are) so he's essentially drawing that essence back into himself. If he were a feeding deva, he could also gain power by, for example, creating the Internet.

...

...Wait.

...Oh my gooooooooooods WE'RE GONNA MAKE THE INTERNET!! =D =D =D WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTA-
>>
No. 62718 ID: 3dd855

>>62717
The Internet was already created. It got destroyed (via explosion, cannibalization, decay, mind-jacking, devoured, polymorphed, etc.).

Also, it is worthless in a non-developed society.
>>
No. 62719 ID: 44f93b

>>62717

Titan of Communication + Civilization = Titan of the internet?

...makes a shocking amount of sense, really. We bring in a new age of civilization, unparallelled communication and connectiveness, and rules over it as a goddess in unchallengeable in her element. We both better the world, and secure our position by making ourself indispensable to it.

>worthless in a non-developed society.
That's why we build a developed society. Out of magic, libraries, racoons, whatever. There's no need to recreate our tubes and screens model to the letter.
>>
No. 62721 ID: 4a328b

>>62719
I don't know that civilization enters into it...

Communication + TUBES, all you need for the internet

A deva of the CONDUIT element--tubes, pipes, fountains...
>>
No. 62722 ID: cee89f

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62718
Then it's not impossible and we can RE-make it!
We now have a legitimate goal, and another reason to pick Civilization for our feeding soul. S*** just got REAL O_O

>>62719
Sounds like a plan! WHO'S WITH ME?! =D
>>
No. 62727 ID: 629257

Seriously though, Wordblood isn't a feeding soul. I don't think we can change that.

...Can we?
>>
No. 62728 ID: 44f93b

>>62721
Well there's reason we can't pick up more devas as we go that fit the theme and facilitate our purpose as we go.

Also- people who wanted to build a library? We're essentially setting out to build a world-wide, magically networked one.

>>62727
I'm going to assume we could, but he wouldn't be Wordblood anymore afterwards. (I also kind of suspect something like rebuilding existing Devas would be a lot more expensive than conceiving new ones).

It seems a poorly advised course of action, to me.
>>
No. 62730 ID: a0c71d

I'm really not quite sure what you fellows mean by Civilization, to be honest.

Do you mean, like, social/cultural development? Because, I have to say since I'm studying anthropology, the hierarchical view of primitive to civilized fell out of favour in like, the eighties. And if I did allow it, it would be more like Culture, and it would refer to like art and language and ritual and such, and be dangerously close to Wordblood.

Or do you mean structural development, like the creation of bureaucracy, division of labour, building cities and governments? That would be more like... Structure, or Order.

Technological development? That'd be more Technology, or Artifice or something.

A blend of all the above would be spreading the net kinda wide.

I'm not certain I approve of "Civilization" in any case. I mean, you can make a case for it, and you do have one canonical Titan who's clearly got a city inside him somehow, but, as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form. Like, Wordblood is Communication, but that's sort of too refined a term. You know what it's going for, though. The idea of words having power, or the spiritual significance of a person's voice, is very old and universal. "Civilization"... not really feeling that, so much? It's just not...

... Y'know.

...

... primordial.
>>
No. 62732 ID: 34d817

>>62730
>It's just not...
>... Y'know.
>... primordial.
Good thing they're Titans now instead of Primordials, then. Heh.

>as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form.
Seriously, though, let's take a look at your list of sample elements from >>59000, where this was discussed.
>Gaia: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wood, ??? and ???
>Autochthon: Steam, Metal, Lightning, Oil, Crystal, Smoke
Okay, Gaia and Autochthon are all physical things/reactions, nothing surprising here. These Elements seem to fall into the general category of "stuff", which is as Elemental as you can get.

>He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word: Words (duh), Blood (duhh), Thought, Legacy, Beauty, Creation, others?
>The Dragon's Shadow: Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change, Death, ???
But these two Titans are significantly more interesting and flexible. Some of their Elements move away from "Stuff" and more toward "Qualities", or even "Processes".

In particular, I'm thinking on Legacy and Deception here. How can you have Legacy without a past to hand down, and parties to do the handing? It's an action, a type of interaction. Likewise with Deception- it's an interaction, not a stand-alone item; it can only exist when there are two sapient parties in play and meaningful communication between them. As Elements, they've moved away from being wholly independent things and toward something more like fundamental components of a larger system.

Likewise with Civilization. It's not some kind of elemental "stuff", no; it doesn't have to be, because Elements are not limited to that. They can define "processes"; in this case, the Element proposed is something like the definition of "groups of beings bringing organization to themselves and their world".

And I can't speak for others' perceptions, but I'd consider that pretty primordial anyway.
>>
No. 62734 ID: 9b155d

When I think Civilization, I think it's something between culture and structure. Or perhaps a blend of the two. It by definition is a place of culture, but whereas my personal perceptions of culture as a force is something fluid and changing, I see civilization as less so.

When I think of culture as a force, I think the ideas of the people, the adaptions they make and the way they change just from interacting with other cultures.

When I think civilization as a force, I think faceless legions marching in waves, civilians toiling away, towering solid buildings. And I see it surrounded by the chaos of more wild untamed lands. Civilization as a force to me is like a wave of urban society.

I doubt this is how others have been imagining it, but as a possible element of a titan, this is how I see it as a possibility. It's a specific type of structure or order, one which has a relationship with culture, as each permutation of the force has a symbiotic relationship with at least one permutation of the force of culture, and the culture(s) it has are most definitely not receptive to others. I assume Szoreny probably has a Deva with the element of a forest, so I'll compare it to a forest having a selection of trees that define it and make it qualify as a forest, and those combination of trees and other plants may effect the way other plants influence the forest. The combination would make life unhabitable to certain other trees if they were to have their seeds planted within', some trees would flourish(adding to the whole of the forest), others would steal the niche of some of the trees as steadily replace them, while others may be poisonous to the forest. But the forest is not any of the individual trees, even if it's composed of only one type of tree, just like it's not the packs of wolves or the migratory birds that dwell there at any given moment. Each of those might be a force of their own, but the force Szoreny represents i the slow ever continual encroachment of a forest, not any of the individual forces within'.

That was a bit longer of an analogy then I intended, but I hope I was able to properly express my point that the forces primordials represent often are a force that contains other forces. And while I certainly don't know specifically how you're determining the elements of other primordials, I'd imagine The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy don't all have a Deva whose element is order or structure as opposed to something more specific. I suppose I view Civilization as a choice as something like Wordblood is communication, but more specifically words.
>>
No. 62736 ID: cee89f

>>62730
I'm going to assume that, since things like deception and communication are valid, to be primal it only has to exist as long as there is life intelligent enough to do either or both of those things.

Here's the way I see it: civilization refers to community, the growth of community, the relationship between members of that community, etc etc... And if we widen the definition enough it could refer to things like Wolf Packs.

Keep in mind: While popular consciousness is that Civilization refers to advanced societies, Civilization also refers to:
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4.
the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5.
cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.

4 and 5 are the important ones for this point. Civilization isn't just about towering skyscrapers, the internet and industrial revolutions: it also refers to the advancement of thought and culture. Thought advances in all living creatures, all the time. Wolf packs exist because the mind of the wolf evolved to the point where it was intelligent enough to hunt in groups, and they're able to communicate because they can LEARN how to from birth. IE, their thought processes become more refined as time goes on.

Granted, that's a stretch. A veeeery big stretch. But considering that we're literally an embodiment of order in the universe, I'd say a stretch is close enough.

>>62732
... What he said. >.>

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62739 ID: 9718f3

Civilization seems like a stretch to me too, to be honest. It's more of the end-product, in my mind. If you want what it has, you have to shoot for a more fundamental concept, one that allows for civilizations to exist, perhaps. It would fit the feeder soul's role as manager of energy supplies and the like.

Sadly I currently have no ideas due to lack of sleep. Communion maybe? Eh.
>>
No. 62742 ID: f2c20c

What about a Feeder of Souls?
>>
No. 62746 ID: cee89f
File 135145761920.png - (6.41KB , 207x203 , 126075124944.png )
62746

>>62742
Seriously?

Mate, we already get energy from souls. We don't need a feeder soul to specifically feed on them! Besides, we're already having morality debates over whether or not it's okay to eat those ghosts!
>>
No. 62748 ID: a0c71d

>>62732
>Legacy and Deception

"Legacy" is the marks left by the past. A valley is the legacy left by a river on the mountainside, or limestone is the legacy of generations of tiny creatures dying under the sea. Deception, similarly, is whenever something is made to look other than it is: a stick insect, the reflection of the moon in the water, et cetera. At least, that's how I was using them.

>>62734
>The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy

Well, the form a Titan takes doesn't necessarily draw directly from the Elements that compose them. I mean, indirectly it does, of course; but for example, The Ebon Dragon takes the form of a Dragon, yet that doesn't require him to have a soul that has a Dragon Element. He takes that form because of the cumulative metaphorical resonance that is best represented by something that is slithery and snakey and powerful.

>>62734
>>62736

As far as I can express it (words are sort of failing me), you guys' intent with "Civilization" could perhaps be described as "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". And that would have the mythic quality necessary: it's the old Gilgamesh-and-Enkidu, hun-and-po, superego-and-id, dog-and-wolf dichotomy that has a strong symbolic resonance. I'd allow that.

So long as you're aware, though, that that concept of Civilization would fall under the domain of the Unconquered Sun, and maybe a few other entities like Autochthon; and it would be implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia and suchlike. Of course, that doesn't mean they're necessarily hostile (UCS and Luna are choicest bros, after all), but it'd still be significant.

And, perhaps more importantly, it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.
>>
No. 62750 ID: cee89f

Having a voice in our heads tempering our more wild natures might be useful...

...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing. What about Knowledge or Information?
>>
No. 62751 ID: 44f93b

Okay... Hmm. Put in that light, I think I'm souring on civilization. Going back to time. That works with everything, and being able to reskill sounds awesome.
>>
No. 62752 ID: b24894

The elements and souls thing is a little confusing to me. But that's okay, because I only really need to know one thing.

Jukashi, what combination of souls, elements, titan's will expenditures, moon powers, power words, skills, and attributes will get us Raccoonbending? Since Saulanna's spirit shape is a Raccoon, would this be the kind of thing we need to wait for a Fetich Soul for? Raccoons aren't all that... 'elemental' I guess, but they're elemental to Saulanna!
>>
No. 62753 ID: 34d817

>>62750
>...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing.
As Jukashi just pointed out, this kind of "opposition" doesn't mean that the forces involved will be inherently hostile to one another, or even stop us from having good relations. It does mean that we'll never grow into a Luna-clone, but we weren't going for that anyway. In fact, of the four examples of dichotomy he gave, no less than three of them are examples of something necessary in order to get the most out of the other- opposed but complementary forces. In that light, I don't see implicit opposition to Gaia or Luna as a problem.

More of a problem is this:
>it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.
This sounds ominous- but at the same time, the phrasing makes it clear that while it's a risk, it's not an insurmountable one. And I think that resolving it comes right back to the above; it's all about the spin you put on things. It's not necessarily matter and antimatter here; it's potentially Gilgamesh and Enkidu- closest of friends. Hun and po- two halves of what makes a full human.

Lunar and civilization souls, perhaps?
>>
No. 62754 ID: cee89f

>>62753
Jukashi, can we get a ruling (or, if a ruling isn't possible, word from wordblood) on whether or not raising our Hero's Soul into a Deva is something we can actually do at some point?

Because that with a Civ deva would do wonders for a sorta Id-SuperEgo dichotomy.
>>
No. 62757 ID: 4d5b2d

>>62754

No, you can't have a ruling. Neither Wordblood nor Saulanna herself have any real knowledge of how Hero Souls work, so it would be metaknowledge.
>>
No. 62761 ID: 4411c7

I'm sorry, but every time I see this image
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/src/134433101734.png
I can only think that the UCS is really angry at Saulanna's terrible blowjob.
>>
No. 62763 ID: beeca1

>>62761
Given Lunars' stereotypical solution to everything and Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio, I originally thought that was exactly what the image meant in context.


I still do, and nothing will convince me otherwise.
>>
No. 62764 ID: b6edd6

On the subject of random thoughts, I keep reading UCS as GCS, which is short for giant cave spider. I have perhaps played too much Dwarf Fortress.
>>
No. 62767 ID: 4411c7

I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.
>>
No. 62769 ID: 34d817

>>62763
>Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio
That's terrible!

We should eat a woman good at sex before attempting to sleep with anyone.
>>
No. 62771 ID: cee89f

>>62769

First reaction: How much do we really need to know? Insert A into B, repeat until done >.>

Second: >eat a woman good at sex...
*snrk*

>>62767

At this point we probably will. But as Wordblood pointed out, there's going to be a lot of choices regarding this feeding soul - what element it's tied to, what it does, what it will be for.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62773 ID: 44f93b

>get good at sex
Worldliness doesn't cover that? :V

>I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.
To be fair, the pace at which we dither around discussing possibilities versus taking action really isn't up to us.
>>
No. 62776 ID: cee89f

>>62773
...

Come to think of it, what exactly ARE we doing in the short term? Going down into the dungeon, i believe?

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62778 ID: 44f93b

>>62776
That, and then potentially followed by another bout of agonizing over soul eating if Saulanna stops to give us a chance to argue over it, eating it anyways, and then making the feeder soul. (Actually, wait, I can't remember if we still have enough TW to make the deva without feeding. The agonizing might come after, not before).
>>
No. 62781 ID: bf54a8

we have just enough to make the feeder first. so hopefully the lightshow will be kept down to a minimum.
>>
No. 62842 ID: 888f37

>>62748
>>implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia
What about Civilization, not as a an opposition to Nature, but as an equal but different entity. A Civilization is a living breathing thing. It hungers, it lusts, it grows. It fights it's rivals, it learns and it adapts. I think that's a very primordial and conceptual view of Civilization, yet one that isn't inherently opposed to Luna (might still possibly be to Gaia, but meh).
>>
No. 62843 ID: 9718f3

Obviously we should make a feeder soul of Harmony. Obviously.
>>
No. 62845 ID: 3338b5

>Deva of harmony
...so basically then we'd shift from being a lunar to a harmonixer?
>>
No. 62847 ID: b3f65a

>>62843
I need to ask you WHY it's obvious. So no, it's NOT obvious.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62849 ID: 9718f3

>>62847
You rather don't need to ask me. But you did, so I'll answer: I was being sarcastic.

However, it isn't a terrible concept. Harmony can be seen as the collection of smaller pieces working in parallel. Not necessarily cooperating, but at least moving in the same direction. In music, notes or chords. In nature, prey and predator. In society, prince and pauper. It doesn't necessarily have to be idyllic, or for every facet to compliment every other, so long as the system works, as a whole. It would be Luna/UCS neutral, and fairly ideal for a soul meant to manage resources among our souls. Fits our actions up till now decently as well.

But then, there's a bunch of ambiguity with the definitions of "Harmony", so whatever.
>>
No. 62852 ID: 888f37

>>62849
Actually, I think Harmony is one of the most antithetical things against Luna suggest so far. Luna is the iconoclast, the rebel, the outsider. Harmony, as you describes it is far more in opposition to Luna than most other things.
>>
No. 62864 ID: 2eac65

"Desire" and "WIll" are pretty similar. Both of them are something that someone wants, and chooses to work towards. At least, that's how I meant it when I suggested Desire. Perhaps there's a more accurate word to use for it?

Someone was worried that choosing "Desire" might lead to Saulanna losing control of it, but it's not so much about feeling desire as it is about commanding it, and making it do subject to Saulanna's will, which is something she has been very keen on doing. She would be a metaphorical lock and key which chooses when Desire is fulfilled, and when it has to wait.

>Harmony
That's a good concept, but I don't think it would suit our Feeding Soul very well.
>>
No. 62865 ID: 03ee4d

You do have to remember to save some Elements for later.
>>
No. 62873 ID: cee89f

>>62865
Not really - we only get one element for this soul, no matter how many we suggest, so we'll still have all these others later.
>>
No. 62876 ID: 03ee4d

>>62873

What I mean is, some Elements may be better used with another Purpose, so you shouldn't "waste" them. Like maybe some day all the Deathlords and their armies will burst loose again, or the Dragon's Shadow will get super mad at your for some reason, and then you'll wish you'd saved the Light element for a holy warrior deva instead of using it to feed with? Or Desire might be better as a seducty social deva, or Civilization for a crafty-makey-buildstuff deva. That sort of thing.
>>
No. 62878 ID: 42ace1

>>62876
This seems to imply that once Saulanna creates a Soul with some Element, she cannot create another Soul with the same Element. Is that correct?
>>
No. 62880 ID: 34d817

>>62878
Not only that, but devas will murder each other if they have significantly overlapping Purposes and/or Elements. See >>57785. They're possessive about it, likely all the more so because even if the Lord devas of fairly similar elements get along they're likely to have Noble or Common devas later which don't.
>>
No. 62881 ID: 3338b5

>>62880
And they might beat each other to death if their elements and/or purpose come into conflict too greatly with one another.

We're going to have a delicate balance of building an inner kingdom that doesn't suffer either from ideological overlap or opposition.
>>
No. 62886 ID: b6edd6

Because it is getting to close to voting time and I didn't really say it in one place before, here is my argument in favor of Will as the element of our feeding soul:

(Theoretical) advantages of Will:
- First and foremost, our main goal in creating a feeding soul is to have a better way to generate and manage Titan's Will. You might object at this point by saying that the name 'Titan's Will' might be a metaphor, but names in this setting have power, so the chances are quite slim that Will would not influence Titan's Will*. Boosting our new soul's primary purpose is one of the most useful things we can do for it for obvious reasons. Once we have established that an element of Will helps processes relating to Titan's Will, it is fairly straightforward that directly boosting our new soul's primary purpose is just about the most useful sort of boost there is.
- Will, both as an element of humanity and as itself in particular is suited for retaining our connection to humanity and sanity in general.
- The previous point is especially relevant because every Moon Hero and Sun Hero (presumably including ourself) suffer from a titanic curse that causes them to periodically lose their self-control**. Power to boost willpower would therefore be extremely useful both for ourself and for other Heroes we might gain as allies.
- Will would also help a lot with convincing and not being convinced in social combat, for obvious reasons.

* We should of course ask Wordblood about this to be sure, but I am confident that this should work to at least some extent. If I can ask Wordsblood that question right here that would be great.
** This eventually got so bad that it was the main cause of the end of the Solar's rule of the world.
>>
No. 62887 ID: cee89f

Anyone wanna help me draft up pros and cons for this list?

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light
Cons: Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

>>62886
Technically, they're two different things: what caused the fall was the pride brought on by the Great Curse, and Limit is one of the ways said Curse manifests.
>>
No. 62889 ID: 3338b5

>>62887
I'll add a few:

Civ
Con: pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire:
Con: A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route. I'd prefer to avoid that.

Light
Pro: Actually, since we could potentially feed off of light, or making it, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva.

Time
I'd suspect the destroyed calender would make temporal manipulation easier, actually. And there's no need to consume time, literally. I kind of imagined the feeding process more like that of a whale- letting the sea of time drift past, eating the energy-krill of individual moments as we encounter them. Feeding on the passage of time. Aggressively consuming pieces of history (like balefire, or what J described She Who Lives In Her Name doing) would be a deliberate, advanced act.
>>
No. 62892 ID: 03ee4d

I feel I should clarify: I said that the rate of TW gain was modified by spreading/feeding on an Element, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely or even mostly linked to it; it's just a possible bonus. Just as the Element can provide some abilities unrelated to feeding, so too does the Purpose endow the deva with powers unrelated to their Element. Every feeding soul will be able to make TW just be collecting and refining general magical energy.

Unless you went for some wacked-out crazy stupid Element like Void or something.

The modification to the rate of gain from something like Civilization "spreading civilization", or Light creating Light, will be quite minor on the small scale for now, unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element. Mostly, it'll affect the degree that the Feeder helps with magical Power, not TW. It's only in the theoretical distant future that major Titan's Will gains would be rendered up for turning the world into some elemental utopia. The Element is mostly to influence potential powers, personality, future subsouls, and so on.
>>
No. 62896 ID: 34d817

>>62892
>unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element
This hadn't even occurred to me, but does that mean that Civilization would help maximize our gains from eating the city gods that seem to pop up in every Exalted settlement of significant size?
>>
No. 62904 ID: f2c20c

>>62896
Wouldn't that piss off the greater pantheon?
>>
No. 62908 ID: 34d817

>>62904
Probably- but I didn't say it was a good idea, just wondered if it would work. Besides, if I've grasped the setting correctly everything has basically gone to hell in Creation and there's not a lot of stability or enforcement to be had these days.
>>
No. 62909 ID: cee89f

>>62889
The problem is that we would have to wrestle against the dragon's shadow's will in order to influence time how we want. Since this particular soul is gonna be geared to feeding rather than mental combat, it probably would lose to a titan that is so much older and so much more powerful than us.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one.
>>
No. 62913 ID: e297bb

Well, I was rather busy, and I'm back to comment further. There's been a lot of good discussion while I was gone. I actually laughed pretty hard at some of the jokes and references. ^_^ This is why I enjoy this quest-board.

>>62256
>>62263
>>62369
>>/quest/464719
>>/quest/464720
>>62730

I'm going to make an argument in defense of my idea of the element of "culture" here. Mainly these are in comparison to what seemed to be the old main pick of "civilization".

Any time that a group of people gather together for an extended time, a culture is created by that group. That culture is the mores, morals, ethos, and bonds that bind the people together, and govern how they interact, as well as any outward signs of those bonds, such as what heroes are held up in their stories, songs, and plays - if the culture is long lasting enough.

Obviously for some this brings to mind the fancy wining and dining and ritualistic behavior of "high society". However it extends down to the way that a certain family handles the circumstances they find themselves in, or the group dynamics in a life boat from a sinking ship.

A culture of people can build a "civilization", as in laws, and bureaucracies, technologies, roads, a nation with defined property and borders. However, while the office-culture of a particular law-firm or lunch-room-clique can indeed be called a culture, I doubt it could be called a civilization. As such, I do not think that "culture" is as limited as "civilization" is.

About the only time I think you could make a case for a civilization absent a culture is when you have "the ruins of a lost civilization". This is basically a corpse, that is then often built on again... as we see from the current location in character. You might be able to make the case for a large fey freehold.

And since you can describe a large tribe of Barbarians as a culture, I doubt that this would put Saulanna in opposition to Luna.

We also want to eliminate the surge of soulfire from feeding. Showing restraint in how you eat, and not splashing evidence of the meal all over are reflected in manners, which is a part of many cultures. Showing restraint when Saulanna feeds, and eliminating the soulfire are two goals that we seem to be in consensus on. That is how culture, and feeding are related to one another, and our goals for Saulanna's development.

Yes, I said that I think that we could use the Deva in the upcoming social battle. I think that some elements are more likely to help than others, and more likely to be of more help. This isn't my main point, but something I think we shouldn't completely ignore.

All that said, culture, much like civilization, does depend on language, communication, words. I think it's different enough not to cause problems. However, to paraphrase his position, Jukashi thinks that this is so close to words/communications as to impinge on Wordblood's territory, and increase strife. Also, it makes Wordblood uncomfortable, even after explanation, and that has been established in character

That is enough reason for me to seek other possibilities. I like some of the major ones others have brainstormed, and will comment on those separately, below.

Too long to read: I think "culture" is better than "civilization" for a lot of reasons, but I'm willing to move on. This is mostly because of what Jukashi said here, and Wordblood said IC.


>>62516
>Raccoonbending
Okay, that's really really funny, but I say... no. Nice Avatar reference though.


>>62886
>Will
Will speaks to me of mental strength, and the ability to resist or to push on. One of the things that I want for this Feeding Deva is some conceptual connection to restraint, though I do not think that "restraint" itself is an appropriate element.

I think this Feeding Deva would be very generally useful. Further, it also seems connected both to what little we know / have established about Saulanna's take on feeding, but also seems connected to her personality in general, both before and after the mind-wipe.

So far I like this one best, and think we should definitely ask Wordlbood and Peregrine about it.

>>62390
>>62864
>Desire
Since the person to suggest "Desire" said that perhaps there was a better word to describe what he was going for, perhaps "Determination" is what the original commentator was looking for?

A Feeding Deva who's powers resolve around pursuing that which it has set itself to, whether to feed on a certain stubborn morsel, or resist letting it's hunger injure the greater good.

But, as HalfTangible already said in >>/quest/467665, it's so similar to Will, that I think that'd be talking about the same concept. I'd support either Will or Determination, personally, and I think I like the flavor of Will a bit better.

>>62472
>Time
Okay, I think this is actually pretty interesting. The ability to re-allocate TW spent on abilities that were once useful, but aren't any longer, or that we liked but turned out to be a bad idea after all, sounds very powerful. Even more so if we can quickly and dynamically re-allocate power. That said, we can probably get lots of fun and interesting powers, eventually, with all sorts of different combinations, if we think in a clever way.

>Light
Hmm. This might let us more easily feed on that soul-fire, which is one of the reasons we're going after a Feeding Deva. That said, I think it'd be better to save for later, if we do use it.

All the Incarnae shed light (sun, moon, stars, red sun), and so does the green sun Liger. So, I think it would be a good idea to ask Wordblood about it, even if we intend to use "Light" later, rather than now.

>>/quest/467615
>>/quest/467616
>>/quest/467617
> Love \ Bonds \ Connections \ Nurturing
Hmm. I like the idea of one of Saulanna's Devas nurturing, or spreading love, but I don't think it makes sense for this particular purpose. I'd rather save this kind of element for a soul designed for a more specific purpose, like a diplomacy Deva, or a Deva for making new forms of life.

>Knowledge
If "Culture" is too close to "Words" then I don't see how "Knowledge" isn't.

-----

I'll try to keep brain storming, but I thought I should address the above ideas first.

-----

>>62707
>Ma-Ha-Suchi
>>62896
>eating city gods
I'd think eating cities would make Saulanna rather like Amoth City-Smiter personally.

-----

>>62887
Light
Con: Possible Overlap with all incarnae, and possibly Liger, the Green Sun.
Pro: Possibly less overlap with any than sunlight, moonlight, or starlight.
>>
No. 62921 ID: 38cd76

Civilization, Bonds, and Light are all concepts I can add my support to, whatever those ends may be.

Light has a myriad of uses. It signifies truth and eliminates deception. It can be either cleansing or searing, and it is an element of finding things. I like this as a deva, I'm not sure it is best suited element for a feeder soul though.

Bonds is another one I like. Bonds of friendship, love and trust, bonds of enmity and hate, bonds of servitude, bonds of loyalty. The different kinds of bonds out there are endless. Again, I'm not certain on that one.

I think my favorite is Civilization, and it gets my final vote. Civilization contains love, poetry, art, and beauty, but it also contains war and tactics. It contains bureaucracy and peace, as well as great agriculture, innovation and scientific discoveries. All in all, it is a symbol of power, order, and creation.

There is good overlap with our needs as a Feeder Soul I believe.

Really, civilization seems like it would have traces of things like love, and peace, and knowledge, and culture and the like already built into it. At the same time, it has potential for war and tactics and the like. But I'm repeating myself now.

Of the three that I like... Civilization, hands down.
>>
No. 62922 ID: f2c20c

What about Souls? A Feeder of Souls?
>>
No. 62925 ID: e297bb

>Bonds

I've been giving this one another think over, and I do like the concept of growth through exploration that the original suggester is working off of. However, Jukashi already said that the element would only have a modifier based on our spreading / being around the element. I doubt that we'd get TW too much quicker for adventuring, or forming relationships. I also don't think that it has the implications that connect it well to "Feeding", or eliminating Soulfire that I was going for.

Though if it would let us consume/sever the bonds that keep potential allies bound to our enemies, this could be incredibly useful in re-aligning social power structures as well.

It's interesting enough to at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

Plus, I haven't investigated the user stamps, but I think it may already have the requisite 3 people supporting it, between both threads, even before I piped in.

>>62921
>Civilization

In post >>62730 Jukashi has already stated that he doesn't like civilization as an element, and may not approve of it at all. The group of commentators has been kind of vague in how it's defined, and seems to be casting too wide a net for the concept. He tried to get us to narrow it down. Structure/Order, Technology or Artifice, Social Development (which he said would wind up being like culture anyway).

You're trying to blend in war/tactics, love, and peace in as well, which is stretching the net further. (Love and peace, and war? Anyone else get a mental image of Vash the Stampeed?)

I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for. I think you're going to need to choose between supporting love, peace, knowledge, culture, and war as the particular element.

>Souls
Okay, based on the analysis of some others, I dismissed this one out of hand, but actually, I have had a thought where this makes some sense.

Each Deva will be making further sub-souls. We'll eventually have a huge world inside of us. As we grow in this way, it could well really ramp up the passive TW production. We'd not only have loads of them around at any given time, but we'd also be spreading this concept as we grow. Further, our diet has included a lot of ghosts thus far, and this could get us some additional TW, to help make our path to power along this rout shorter.

Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

That said, in the long run, being a creature that grows by feeding on and consuming souls isn't likely to do very well in the case for "Please don't destroy us Mr. Invictus... sir..."

If approached from the angle of creating/spreading/containing souls, I think it's an interesting enough concept that we should at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

>>62909
Will:
Pro: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.

As far as the cons go, military training, practicing debate, and fostering a sense of individual responsibility and prerogative could help to increase the strength of will of surrounding cultures.

The mind control aspect does strike a bit truer though. Feeding by consuming the will of others would make us more like the fey, and gaining powers in that direction could be a dangerous path.
>>
No. 62927 ID: 34d817

>>62925
>I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for.
If we go for Civilization at this point we know exactly what to expect: What Jukashi described in >>62748, that being "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". It's a reasonable and useful primordial force, and while there is a lot of excited speculation about what it might be made to do- I'm guilty of some of that myself- those are just potential subsets of the core idea, just like friendship, hatred, or slavery are potential subsets of a Bonds element. This is not trying to make it somehow encompass everything, just thinking about what the concept is made of.
>>
No. 62928 ID: a27919

Make the Element Heroism, we feed off our own awesomeness!
>>
No. 62929 ID: e297bb

>>62927
I read >>62925 as Jukashi adding to the list of ways he'd be willing to interpret "Civilization", aside from the list in >>62730.

If "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness" is actually what you're going for, though, then it's a valid concept to consider. I still think that your mullings are stretching the concept.

Culture, and knowledge... yes, I can definitely see there being some connotations for agriculture or trade based cultures, as well as the idea of the "high society" type of culture. I think that hunter-gatherer cultures would belong to the "wilderness/nature" part of the dichotomy. I'm also not sure that herbalism would necessarily fall on the "civilization" side of knowledge, though civil engineering almost definitely would fall within the connotations connected to this domain.

Tactics and strategy aren't natural, but war is a natural part of human life, and has existed as long as two people, or organizations, have coveted the same thing, and been unable to share in it. Similarly, peace exists any time people are working more in cooperation than opposition, which is also natural for man. Love, and familial bonds are natural to the human condition.

At best, civilization is not opposed to peace, love, war, or bonds of love/friendship/famil, but nature is not opposed to them either. As a result, I don't really think we can count on even connotations of them, due to the "as opposed to nature or wilderness" part.

Keep in mind, if we separate Saulanna from nature, that might well include her own human nature. The group as a whole seems to be trying to avoid that.

I also really don't like the idea of setting up that dissonance that Jukashi was talking about. Saulanna's essence is already partially tied up in the natural, and the wild. I really don't want parts of her fighting against herself.

In the end, my take on "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness" is as follows. Tactics vs valor and loyalty to clan. Bureaucracy against bonds of love and family. Laws and Law Enforcement officers vs willing and natural cooperation. The static beauty of a statue, vs a hill of wildflowers against the backdrop of misty mountains. More positively, it also includes rule of law over rule by strength, and "modern" medicine as opposed to herbalism, or a natural immune system.

While it has some positive connotations, this still smacks of "She Who Lives In Her Name" to me, and the gulags of Autocythonia. I am very leery of this concept for several reasons, and cannot support the formulation of "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness".
>>
No. 62933 ID: cee89f

>Souls

This is a BAD idea. VERY VERY BAD. I am against it with every fiber of my being, and a few fibers from my dog. We are trying to NOT look like evil douchebags. Making a soul that gains power through the absorption of souls is redundant since that's already our primary method of gaining Titan's Will, and any Feeder Soul would be effective enough at absorbing souls, we don't need to make the feeding soul specifically attuned to what we can already eat AND it makes us look evil. Even if we don't go one a soul eating spree, the fact that we COULD, and in fact deliberately CHOSE to be able to do so, makes us look like a major threat to existence itself.

SPREADING souls makes no sense because we would have to spend TW to make souls anyway, meaning that until we have enough power to make the returns worth it, creating new souls is going to be more of a drain than a boon.

>>62925
>Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

...Ok, and this is a positive because? =/ Not trying to be rude here but i honestly don't see why the meat/spirit comparison would matter.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one
>>
No. 62935 ID: e297bb

>>62933
I respect your opinion on this matter. My point is not to support this choice, but that I find it intellectually curious, and want to ask about it, because I think it would give us a broader understanding we could use to debate our other options.

Saulanna is a smart girl, and people keep talking about wanting knowledge. Well, here's a chance to get it.

>Meat/Souls
Oh, that was just a bit of bad humor showing, and a reference to >>57928 . I suppose I shouldn't have made the reference so oblique.
I was simply pointing out, with poor humor, that "souls" seems particularly appropriate for any Deva, not just a feeding deva.

My main point of intellectual curiosity here, is based around the fact that our feeding Deva will be creating sub-souls that will help it with feeding, and we will be creating a huge collection of sub-souls eventually.

I think that being in the presence of these sub-souls could positively influence our TW gain rate. That's the long term strategy aspect.

The short term strategy aspect is even higher efficiency for eating ghosts, which it seems we are already determined to do, at least in the short term.

I recognize the negative implications you've talked about, and that's why I'm not supporting this option, but just want to ask about it.

We're in an info gathering stage, so I figure we should gather info. ^_^

I'll decide what I really support after we have all this info. I think asking about these elements others want, but that I don't support, may help me to make my choice.
>>
No. 62936 ID: 9b155d

>i'm gonna need some help with this one

from your listed advantages

>Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.

From Jukashi
>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

and also

>The interaction between Purpose and Element is ambiguous. As I said, it might be "Feeds on X", but it might also be "Feeds by using X" or "Feeds by spreading X".

> Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element. Similarly, you are made of meat. Thus, you can eat meat! You also use your meat to eat. And, if you eat, you can make more meat. You are a meat creature. It would not be inaccurate to think of a titanic soul in those terms, though - like with humans - there is a lot of complexity added on top of this basic nature.

>Wordblood, for example, as an Aide, is naturally helpful; being based on Communication, he is well-spoken and understanding, and can get upset when he doesn't understand things. Being an Aide and a Communicator, he is prone to provide assistance by explaining things and offering insights. Something similar will apply to any deva.

Feeding on X could be very bad for us in the case of bonds, and these bits make me think that that's one of the most likely things that will happen with a Feeder soul.

>Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element...

And a Deva made of bonds? Might have loyalty issues or usurp our position as the soul this whole thing revolves around.
>>
No. 62937 ID: cee89f

>>62936
Interesting (personally I think it's more likely that a Bonds Deva would have strong loyalties and/or trust issues, but to each their own)

Still gonna wait on Wordblood's word on all of these, but I think I'm set on Bonds.
>>
No. 62938 ID: 9b155d

>>62937
Except all bonds aren't positive, and the moment it bonds with all the other souls better than us and becomes the center of This Titan... well, I don't see Quest reacting well to that.
>>
No. 62939 ID: 63f851

REBIRTH.

(I don't know how to quote across boards, but copy/pasting is a social no-no so I'm just gonna apologize instead. Sorry.)
>>
No. 62940 ID: e297bb

>>62939
You do it like this:

>>/quest/467960
I think that was the post you were looking for, aye?
>>
No. 62942 ID: 9718f3

Guys, some of you have as many as six posts in the thread since the last update. Six. That is a ridiculous number. Please keep the conversation here.
>>
No. 62943 ID: beeca1

>>62942
I'd like to agree with this but note that if they're posting that heavily in the main thread they probably aren't looking here.
>>
No. 62944 ID: f2c20c

This thread is over 1500 posts long!

Can we get a second discussion thread going?
>>
No. 62946 ID: e297bb

Shouldn't we wait until it's OVER 9000? :P
>>
No. 62947 ID: 9718f3

>>62943
I wish that were true, but one of the most frequent contributors to this thread is one of the two with six posts over in the quest thread. Another reached three over there in less than three hours. It's... vexing.
>>
No. 62951 ID: e297bb

>>62947
I presume that I'm the "three in three hours" fellow that you're referring to, and that HalfTangible is one of the fellows with 6.

Generally speaking I'll agree with you that discussions should be brought here, especially based on Jukashi's general request. However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

While I'm trying to move any discussion I think may last a while over here, I don't think replying to a short-term request for clarification over there is a bad thing, in any case.

That said, if I was going to discuss "REBIRTH", any further, or HalfTangible had needed further clarification, I'd bring it over here, especially since I see that the guy suggesting it found his way here.
>>
No. 62952 ID: cee89f

>>62947
>>62951
I try to respond to arguments/points in the actual thread in which they start because some part of me is always paranoid that if i respond in another thread, it'll get completely ignored =( sorry - i'll try and cut down on that from now on.
>>
No. 62953 ID: e297bb

HT: If you ever have a question for me, and want to move the discussion here, just link to my original post, and if I'm reading up on the threads at all, I'll probably catch it. I do occasionally need to disappear, for a variety of reasons.

I'll be happy to move any discussions from the main thread to here with you, unless I think that the responses need to be in the main thread.

In fact, if you guys like, I can delete my follow on posts, and make the clarification on my position here. I could even write up a more thorough reply to "rebirth" as an element, for our new Derpy friend.
>>
No. 62955 ID: 9b155d

>However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

I'd say it's an invitation to pose ideas and ask questions to Wordblood and Peregrin. Almost noone is asking questions, me included to my chagrin(I phrased a question I had about a future Deva as a statement about something I thought could be cool), and instead most people are saying they're voting for things when Wordblood specifically said we shouldn't decide until' getting the advice of the people we have on hand.
>>
No. 62957 ID: f2c20c

>>62954
It got your attention, unlike more polite requests. I'm not apologizing or deleting it.

If anyone should be deleting posts, it's those who have cluttered up the quest thread with huge posts filled with nothing but talking to other suggesters. If you're not going to suggest anything, at least make your post short and to the point, christ. The quest needs no discussion of Derpy Hooves or made-up songs about derp faces, or critique of how someone presents their ideas.
>>
No. 62958 ID: e297bb

>>62955

>>/quest/467608
>Thus, the choice you face is to decide its Element.
>Tell me your thoughts, and I will answer. Peregrin, too, may have valuable opinions to offer.

Yes, he did ask us to tell him our suggestions, but it's in part the way it was done.

The group was asked to come up with ideas, and then present them to Wordlbood for him to comment on. That seems to be a pretty clear call to me to brainstorm those suggestions, and ideas.

So people are giving their thoughts on the subject. This kind of creative environment looses some social conventions, in order to allow for greater freedom of thought, and expression of that thought. We get more ideas that way.

Normally that kind of brainstorming and discussion should take place here, but I think that now that it's explicitly idea time, in the main thread, people feel freer to have these discussions there.

I acknowledge that there is indeed some "voting" going on, and I agree that may have some unfortunate implications... but my hope is, that this will just lead to emphasizing certain explanations.

As far as my case in specific goes, in >>/quest/467935 I made one big post with questions I wanted to ask before a relevant decision was made.

After that, except for one side-comment, I was just quickly dealing with clarifications, or follow ons.

If those of you who have delt with me politely want, I can try to shift some of the clarifications here... but I don't think that my posts are really that much of an issue. Also, if HalfTangible was unclear on my intent, Jukashi might be as well, which is another reason I wanted my clarifications in the same thread I made that one initial post in.

----

>>62957
So you double down, and go so far as to blaspheme. Very well. I will be explicitly disregarding your wishes.

I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...
>>
No. 62959 ID: 9b155d

>>62958
>I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...

I'm sure the quest author who has said he doesn't like the quest thread getting cluttered with discussion would absolutely love that.

Honestly feel bad for all quest authors when threads get like this. Must be hell sorting out what people want to do or say, having any sort of consensus, and then having to actually write out a scene or dialogue with the jumbled mess of posts. Really surprised I haven't seen any out and out say they'll only accept the first suggestion from a given ID. I certainly wouldn't mind.
>>
No. 62960 ID: f2c20c

>>62959
I certainly wouldn't mind being limited to one post if it would cut down on the truly massive amount of suggestion noise in this quest.

I'd probably wind up having to delete my first post and repost it along with further thoughts later on in the thread, though. I quite often think of more things to suggest after I've already posted.
>>
No. 62961 ID: 80926d

Oiy Josh the Aspie, stop filling the thread with your horseshit.
>>
No. 62962 ID: e297bb

>>62959
Welp, there we go. I've posted a new list of suggestions. Entirely relevant. I'd offer to delete it upon apology. The main problem with that is that I already tried in order to add a bit more clarification, and it didn't work. I will admit fault on not taking better care of the password there.

However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

Yours hasn't.

Suprizingly, that makes your obsenities less relevant than any posts I've made, which you're complaining about.

... huh. Well, imagine that.
>>
No. 62963 ID: 80926d

Jesus can you take this shit to "BIG DUMB ARGUEMENTS" cause its big, its dumb, and it technically qualifies for an arguement.
>>
No. 62964 ID: e297bb

>>62961
Well, given that I was done posting until people decided to be provocative with bravado, and obscenity, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on, much less four between yourself, and f2c20c.

I do hope that you realize that you're actually provoking behavior that you don't want, and that I'm just refusing to be intimidated by people swearing at me. It's really quite elementary.

Had I not been sworn at, I already would have been done posting. I was even offering to clear out existing posts if people wanted, based on polite conversation.
>>
No. 62965 ID: 409abf

To be honest, from a outsider's perspective this is making the entire thing rather hard to get in to. All I see are two sides lowering each other step by step. It is neither constructive, nor helpful and all it does is make things more difficult for new people to get into.

While I agree the base 'shut up' comment with nothing constructive was uncalled for, Josh's response was even more so. Both by just being a means to get back at the ones who told him to be quiet and being rather rude to those who are actually try to post good ideas only to have them moved away until the 5 most recent posts are spam.

Come on. Considering Jukashi asked us to play nicely, this sort of thing should either stick to a chat room, or in discussion away from the main thread. So please stop the petty fighting, alright? I enjoy Lunar Quest and I would hate to see it canceled due to this sort of thing.
>>
No. 62966 ID: e297bb

>>62965
Juroko, in retrospect, I regret posting to the main thread. I intended to delete it after I had made my point, but screwed up on the password.

I have reasons for what I did, but sum total, I still would rather I had not posted that particular post.

My main solace is that I constructed it in such a way as to ATTEMPT to make it humerous to Jukashi, in the off chance that he wound up reading it.

I know he's an MLP fan (probably a far bigger one than me, as I'm just a casual fan/watcher), so I built a fair amount of the post out of references to a fan work.

That said, I do not respond well to intimidation, obscenity, or blaspheme, and do not intend to censor myself any further than I already was, based on vulgar intimidation tactics.

Still, there are some people I owe an apology too. To anyone reading this who was offended, or disappointed, and did not decide to try to intimidate people with obscenity or blaspheme, I apologize for the negative way my conduct has impacted you. If anyone with the power to do so wants to, I'd actually appreciate it if you'd just delete that main thread post about the muffins.
>>
No. 62967 ID: 9b155d

>>62962
>However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

>Yours hasn't.


I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself that I'm not the guy who posted The Shut Up or any variation thereof. I'm an entirely separate person who was commenting on how by trying to get back at someone for being rude you're being a complete asshole to the quest author. In a follow up paragraph I made a comment not directed at anyone in particular about feeling sorry for quest authors who had to deal with massive amounts of posts that aren't suggestions. Also, I only have a single post in the main thread.
>>
No. 62968 ID: e297bb

>>62967
I admit to my error. I got used to a bit of back and forth with f2c20c, and failed to continue to check the user stamp. That was pretty dumb of me.

I apologize for that error, and conflating the two of you. You're already included in my earlier apology, but I'll repeat it. I apologize for the negative impacts my posts have had on you. I ask for your forgiveness.
>>
No. 62969 ID: f2c20c

>>62968
Hey, I'd like to point out that if you aren't contributing to the suggestion glut, then I don't have any problem with you.
>>
No. 62970 ID: e297bb

>>62969
Wait, what?

Okay, maybe I'm just confused here. I'm not trying to lay blame, just explain my mental state, so that maybe we can figure out where things went wrong.

In >>/quest/468017 you shouted at what appeared to be everyone to shut up, and screamed an obsenity. I'm part of everyone.

Then in >>62957, you said that "It got your attention, unlike more polite requests.", and blasphemed.

I took that to be directed at me, specifically, since you were replying to my post. I'd already been talking with people who had adressed the issue more politely. I'd posted thrice, and while I didn't think I was causing a problem, I was open to trying to fix things if I was.

Since it appeared to me that you were claiming that I was ignoring the people I was already talking too, and that you were insisting that I'd respond better to being intimidated by being sworn at, I took grave offense.

I don't really see how you weren't swearing at me in the general in >>/quest/468017, and then insulting me in the specific in >>62957. I'm open to an explanation, however.

Also, I will admit that I had a single-line aside about Derpy Hooves, which wasn't in the best judgement, given how crowded things already were. The other things you complained about weren't me, though.
>>
No. 62971 ID: f2c20c

>>62970
Okay, I can see how what I said could be really easily misinterpreted, sorry for... well, basically not saying what I meant. What I meant was, my rudeness got your attention, unlike in the past where I would be polite about asking other people to talk in questdis, and it didn't stop.

I then went on to describe specifically what kinds of posts I didn't like. At this point I wasn't paying attention to specific offenses, but knew that there was kindof a lot of that sort of thing happening regardless. I didn't call you out specifically on it aside from that one derpy hooves thing which really isn't a big deal anyway since it's like one line.

You should probably let go the swearing and casual blasphemy, though. This is the internet, not church.
>>
No. 62972 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/468011
>In addition, you are gushing over it like it's "THE GREATEST IDEA EVA" and it comes off as... for lack of a better term, 'fanboying' over the idea - ie, you're putting emphasis on potential pros while ignoring any potential cons.

I kinda actually feel like Derpy right now. I was posting late at night, when my brain starts shutting down, so I didn't quite realize that you were basically insulting me. I didn't know that being too (sleep-deprived) enthusiastic was a crime. There's a difference between sating that I didn't list/think of any cons and saying that I'm a thoughtless fanboy.

...Mostly I'm just angry with you because I woke up ten minutes ago thinking about your post. *awkward silence*

>Sure, you don't say the rose is ugly because it has thorns, but you don't grab the thorns and squeeze as hard as you can while gushing over the red of the petals, either.

I don't get it. Roses are delicious!
>>
No. 62973 ID: 63f851

So, anyways, does anyone else have opinions on my idea? From this post:
>>57732
it kinda seems that some of these ideas (light, time, desire) would be better off as their own soul later down the line. We're not picking a new power that will also act as the feeder soul, we're picking the digestive system first and secondarily we might gain new powers too. Also, this is going to be made from/reflecting Saulanna, so things like Civilization, Culture, and Souls might be reaching a bit outside ourselves. For example, Jukashi uses the example of knowledge, but that would be more a feeding soul Wordblood than for Saulanna. I think feeder souls based on Eating, Will, or Balance might be the most direct elements to base a feeding soul on (and I hereby formally throw Eating and Balance into the list of ideas to ask Wordblood about,) but these choices just feel too safe. It would be perfectly fine to make a feeding soul with the element of Will, but for our first act of Lunar-Titan growth it feels way too damn boring. This is the sentence where I connect everything above to propose that Rebirth fits my criteria perfectly. In addition to what I mentioned in that sentence, Rebirth is totally meta, and that's why it's cool. It's quite probable that no other titan uses Rebirth, and being unique means both having no holds on us and also possibly creating powers that no others have. A bunch or really weird stuff happened to the person that is now called Saulanna. She's lost much, but also gained much too. Creating her feeding soul with the element of Rebirth means grabbing that weirdness by the horns and making all of it hers. That I feel is the greatest power Saulanna could gain. Or maybe it's a silly idea that wouldn't really work. *Shrug*
>>
No. 62974 ID: f2c20c

>>62973
I feel like a Feeder of Eating would wind up turning us into a glutton. Rebirth could do all sorts of weird stuff... it's worth asking about, that's for sure.
>>
No. 62975 ID: 9718f3

Guys. It's simple. if you're responding to someone's post, and they're responding to your response to their post, you're having a discussion. Which belongs in here, not in the main thread. Even when half your post is "new" material, you aren't excused from keeping the chatter over there to the minimum. There's chains of back and forth spanning half a dozen posts, it's ridiculous, and it makes things much harder to follow.

Additionally, I see a lot of people trying to convince each other of the validity of their ideas in the quest thread. That is a poor place for such debates, especially because in Jukashi quests it is not other players who decide how valid an idea or plan of action is, it's Jukashi themselves. What other players think of your ideas is irrelevant most of the time, so don't waste everyone's time and patience addressing them specifically.

Wanting to contribute is a great thing but being a respectful contributor means not flooding the thread with many posts. Take the time to consolidate your ideas and present them as one or two posts. At least that is the ideal everyone should aim for. One guy misunderstanding you is not the end of the world and generally shouldn't warrant a 10 paragraph response to set the record straight. Stop being so thin-skinned.
>>
No. 62982 ID: d6ae01

Is this the discussion thread? I honestly can't tell which is which because both threads have discussion and dumb arguing.

Jukashi, let me know your thoughts on all this, and how heavily you'd like "discussion in /dis/ only" enforced.

I began deleting this stuff, but I'm going to leave most of it up so Jukashi can see it and decide how he feels.

But until then, no more arguing.
>>
No. 62984 ID: e297bb

>>62982
Yes, it is.
Thank you for deleting the muffin post, sir. I acknowledge my error, and have deleted the two posts I made that were pulling things into discussion territory. You have my apologies.

-----

>>62975
Well, I try to admit when I am wrong. I re-read the actual written rules yesterday after our last interchange. They do state how things should be divvied up on the boards. Obviously, from the admin action above, as well.

What other reasonable choice do I have? Of the 3 remaining posts I had in the quest thread, I've deleted the second two, which were pulling things into discussion territory.

I'd like to explain a bit of the reason for my confusion.

This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.

If people want to change that, consistent and even handed application of authority is likely to be necessary. I'm glad that Slinkoboy is offering, and I hope Jukashi takes him up on his offer.

As it is, there are people who repeatedly bring up their issues, and discuss them in the main quest thread. They ignore the discussion thread entirely. These people seem to be having a huge influence on the quest, including the posts that Jukashi has made. Milo, for example, seems to have a rather sizable influence.

While Jukashi has verbally discouraged that behavior, the apparently large influence that people like Milo have also rewards that behavior. This sends mixed signals.

I was actually nervous about keeping most of my discussion here when I first started posting. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see Jukashi address something I had only posted about here addressed in a main quest post.

Unfortunately, until more people pay attention to the discussion thread, and bring discussions here, the discussions here won't really have much of an effect on how people vote/choose, as they'll be missing vital info. That may occasionally make it a practical necessity to post that missing info to the main thread. Jukashi himself has already done so on a few occasions.

I hope that it becomes unnecessary soon, based on a combination of admin action, and bad behavior not being rewarded.

-----

>>62972
I accept your apology. I hope you'll accept my apology for making the muffin post.

As for the swearing/blaspheme thing... I generally don't bring it up when people decide to swear, or blaspheme. It's mainly when they are specifically addressing me, and particularly when they are trying to get me to do something by shouting at me at the same time.

When it looks like someone is trying to shove me around, and boss me around inappropriately, by yelling and swearing, which is a method of intimidation, I say exactly what I don't like about the behavior, and why I am not complying with their inappropriate orders.

If you had said, for example, "The fuck is a Derpy Hooves?" I probably wouldn't have commented, though I might have.

It looks like I'm not the only one who disliked your post either. It was one of the posts that slinkoboy deleted. HalfTangible reacted poorly in >>62976 as well.

Also, if you were to choose one or the other when talking to me, I'd prefer the vulgarity, even when directed at me, over the blaspheme. This is a preference that, if taken into consideration, would make me more kindly disposed toward you.

-----

>>62972

Regarding the whole "fanboy" thing: I wouldn't have dissed you over your position. However, you really weren't explaining yourself well, and were enthusiastic about the idea at the same time. It didn't exactly endear me to your idea.

Now that you're more clear headed, you've explained it better. Though, it would have been easier to read if you'd broken your paragraphs up a bit.

>>62973

As for the feeding soul of eating... I don't think that eating is an element so much as a purpose, which is also called... feeding.

You do make a good point about the foreignness of certain large concepts not directly tied to Saulanna. That's another point against my original idea of "culture" as well.

As far as rebirth goes, I was trying to puzzle out what context it could have, in terms of how the purpose of feeding, and the element of rebirth would interact.

Wordblood has said that these ghosts are "reborn" into us... but aside from gaining skills and TW, I don't really see it. I think it's more of an analogy he used to make Saulanna more comfortable with the course of action he wanted to follow.

Then it hit me. Perhaps a Feeding Soul of rebirth could develop the power of reducing our TW gain in exchange for making them actually reborn within Saulanna. They might be re-born as sub-souls of a Deva. Obviously we wouldn't want to do that with slavers, or the like... but people have already floated the idea of turning ghosts we like into a part of Saulanna. Perhaps we could make Gavin a sub-soul of any Deva we create that involves hard work and fortitude... or that guard captain into part of one of our combat oriented Devas.

This could be a path to that ability, which multiple people have expressed interest in.

It's actually even somewhat lunary, since Luna has the ability to turn Fey into spirits of creation called "truculee".

Of course we'd want consent in order to do that to ghosts we like, but hey, I think it's an interesting idea to at least ask about.

-----

Regarding voting, when the time actually comes:
The instant runoff system got brought up earlier in the thread. I'd like to go with such a system.

To see the flaws of a "most initial votes wins" system, consider the following scenario. You have a 5-way election between George Washington, Thommas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and Che Guavara. Che could win, even if only about 25% of the people voting even like him at all, and the other 75% would prefer anyone else over him.

The threat of that can also make people less likely to vote for an entirely viable candidate, that they just think can't win.

In an "instant runoff" system, unless people really wanted socialism, and more per-capita executions than either Hitler or Stalin, Che wouldn't win. People would also feel more free to make their primary vote the person/concept they actually want to vote for.

In the above example, my ticket might look something like this:
1 Washington
2 Jefferson
3 Benjamin Franklin
4 Abraham Lincoln
5 Che Guavara

It's a bit more labor intensive to do, so I'll understand if Jukashi doesn't want to do it. This is just my preference. Also, if some folks volunteered to provide vote counts, based on Jukashi declaring when the voting started/ended (either when he started the vote count, or by making a second post to declare polls closed), that might work out as well. If we have multiple vote counters, and their numbers match, that'd confirm the results. Jukashi would only need to do the counting if there was a conflicted result.
>>
No. 62987 ID: b6edd6

>This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.
From what I have seen it really depends on how crowded the quest thread is likely to get. Lots of quests with smaller followings or fast update speeds tend to have few posts after each update (less than 15 or so), and in those side discussions are not that problematic as long as they are kept short. The problems with discussion start to occur in quests that are very popular or take a while to update, because when you have 30ish of direct suggestions per update alone discussion in the quest thread can lead to massive amounts of text for the author and readers to deal with.

Also, if you are going to say lots and lots and lots of things, could you please use less spacing compact them into paragraphs more? It isn't nearly as much trouble when the post is in /disc, but when a single non-author post is three screens long you kind of have a problem.
>>
No. 62989 ID: e297bb

>>62987
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I'll also try to keep your request in mind.
Gathering too many sentences into two few paragraphs makes the text hard to read, but I may have spread the sentences out too much. I'm also obviously still working to improve my ability to fully express a thought, while keeping my post brief.
>>
No. 62990 ID: 400fb2

>>/quest/467608
> If your Element is already claimed by another mighty force, they will be able to exert power over you; but in time, and growth, so too could you exert power over them.

Given how many powerful titans and gods there are, and that many of them span multiple elements, I think it is inevitable that we are going to step on some one's toes. I don't think we should really worry about that for this particular deva. Doesn't Wordblood's element (Words) overlap with Elloge a bit? That hasn't been a problem yet. For now, let's just avoid something that would be shared by the Dragon's Shadow, since he's the only superpowered entity that represents any sort of immediate threat.
>>
No. 62991 ID: 7f2a1b

Okay, so, if I'm not completely mistaken, next (quest-wise) we're going to request P-n-WB's input on the various suggested elements, and NOT going for the creation of the new deva until their input has been processed.

That about right?
>>
No. 62992 ID: cee89f

>>62991
Sounds about right.

>>62984
Oh! Idea! Rebirth (as we're defining it here) involves a person becoming radically different from who they are, right? Maybe for cases like the Slavers, we could use our feeder and 'rebirth' them into ourselves as different kinds of people! Like how we went from Thief to Moon Hero/Titan!

... second thought that could easily be viewed as brainwashing... Especially when you consider we became a Titan by having our soul wiped clean.

Okay, maybe we could offer to 'rebirth' them as titan subsouls, say Noble or Commoner Devas for Wordblood/McFeederson. They'd still be /who/ they were before, just not /what/ they were before, and be able to assist in the tasks of a titan. The issue there becomes how much of an influence they'll have on us, though the threat of being eaten entirely if they become too uppity might deter them.

...Or maybe that would be for a different kind of soul than a feeder =/ ... huh.

... I think i like the rebirth idea in this light.

...And it only occurs to me now that the second idea was exactly what you just finished saying *facepalm*

-----
Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: Raccoons aren't exactly primordial, and we have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Rebirth
Pros: Could allow us to 'rebirth' souls within us as subsouls, very connected to Saulanna's life since becoming a titan, could allow us to remake criminals into decent people before integrating them into us.
Cons: Influence of potential human subsouls, only interacts with singular events, remaking criminals similar to brainwashing

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.
>>
No. 62993 ID: 256d52

Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?
>>
No. 62996 ID: e297bb

>>62990
I think that asking who/what there is overlap with, and choosing overlaps that would be more advantageous / less disadvantageous to us is a far more relevant path than trying to avoid overlaps entirely.

You already seem to be prioritizing avoiding overlaps with the Dragon's Shadow.

>>62991
That's the plan, as I understand it.

I also think that since we have "souls" on the list, and "rebirth" with an eye toward how we deal with eating ghosts, we might want to ask more about the nature of ghosts as well. I posted such a set of questions in the main thread, as something we should ask about in the near future.

>>62992
Yeah, that second variation is basically what I was getting at. The main exception is that having component souls with any given personality would pretty obviously influence Saulanna. I doubt we want slavers influencing her mental state.
>>
No. 62997 ID: b6edd6

>Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?
Wouldn't it be convenient if there were some space for discussion that was also editable? As it happens, there is! It is currently even more obscure than the /questdis thread*, but if people use it and link to it it will presumably become less so. (Normal discussion would probably work better in this thread, but things like continually updating lists or theories would likely work better in the wiki, where they can actually be edited instead of repeatedly reposted.)
The page for this quest is:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest
A particular section of the page can be linked like so:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest#List_of_potential_Feeding_Soul_Elements


* As far as I could discover, this will be the first time a discussion tab in the wiki has ever been used.
>>
No. 62999 ID: 38cd76

In a similar relationship to the suggestion of darkness, or of rebirth, what do we possibly think about elements such as DEATH or LIFE?

Either death or life would work really well as far as actually being stuck in a shadowland right now, death is a large part of creation, there are deaths of ideas, people, animals, kingdoms, plants, lots of things! She also is dealing with ghosts and the like on a regular basis, and DEATH or LIFE would also very likely be very appropriate for a FEEDER soul in particular, as one of its purposes is developing her spiritual energy, and/or devouring souls. It works!
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No. 63000 ID: eb5438

>>62982

I think my policy is going to be that no one should make more than two posts between updates. Preferably, they should make just one, but I'd allow two.

On another subject, this video should explain alternative voting/instant run-off voting, which we'll be using, for those who don't know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
>>
No. 63001 ID: eb5438

Voting begins!
>>
No. 63004 ID: cee89f

>>62993
This board doesn't have an edit function for individual posts. I don't have any OTHER way to keep track of the list in question, nor what post i last edited it for. So yes. I am copy+pasting a list "every twenty posts" (actually a lot less than that, but thanks for being generous) so that it's easy to keep track of and update.

>>62997
Thank you, I'll try and do that with any future lists. If I forget and have to be reminded, I'll delete the post in question.

>>63001
Hooray!
>>
No. 63007 ID: f2c20c

WELP, looks like most of the ones we came up with suck!

What do you guys think of maybe coming up with another option or two? Maybe straightforward stuff like Blood or Flesh or Hunger.
>>
No. 63008 ID: eb5438

>>63007

Every Element you could possibly come up with will probably have at least one disadvantage. And if it didn't, I would endeavor to give it one, for balance. We don't want things to get boring, do we?
>>
No. 63009 ID: 3338b5

>>63008
Well yes, but I think the complaint there was that quite a few elements proposed passed the line from "that will work, with a given disadvantage" to "that's not really suited to this purpose at all and has more problems and disadvantages than is worth it".

>Discussion
So, from Wordblood's responses, time seems a pretty strong choice. I'm pretty tempted to give him what he wants.
>>
No. 63010 ID: eb5438

>>63009

Well, saying they would all have some disadvantage doesn't mean that they're all equal. Some are worse, some better. Perhaps there are even one or two that are best, if you have trust in your ability to handle them.
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No. 63012 ID: b6edd6

Oh Will soul, you were too excellent to exist...

...This time, at least. When we have more souls and power we should definitely go for a Will soul for a Purpose like Magic, because their reaction more or less said it would be awesome but beyond our current abilities.

Hmmm... What if we made a Crafting soul of Will? As a being which is itself crafted from will, it could start self-assembling part-way through its creation. Depending on how much Time shenanigans we could get away with by that point, we could even have our Time soul assist it in crafting itself.
>>
No. 63013 ID: 3338b5

>>63012
>paradoxical origin for time deva
>interacting with devas we haven't even created yet
That's all kinds of awesome.
>>
No. 63015 ID: b24894

There weren't any disadvantages listed for Raccoons! =D

That means they're the best! Vote'd.
>>
No. 63016 ID: cee89f

>>63015
i think he was trying to decide if we were joking. Or just staring at us like this pic.
>>62746


...

i like that pic =3
>>
No. 63018 ID: e297bb

>>/quest/468303

I would rather not go with a Lord Deva that has a strong potential to take over the King/Queen slot from Saulanna. I think that we should save Bonds/Connections, or any other deva elements that might shift the balance of power, to be Noble Devas. These are at the mid level between Lords, and Commoners, recall. This might well actually stabilize the power-base of Saulanna's house.

Some of these would also do well as Nobles under Wordblood. As a result, I'm kicking Civilization, and Culture off of my list.

>Will
>She's not sure why; but she feels a little insulted by the suggestion, somehow. She feels an implication in it that she's deficient in terms of willpower, herself.

>>/questarch/213361
>It's... incredible!

>>/quest/405263
>It feels so good.

Well she does need more willpower. That's probably why the suggestion stings.

My thought on the difficulty in making the spirit is that if we can't actually make the Deva out of willpower, we can move on to our runner up, whatever that is. Besides, a tree IS made of wood. If you had a magical carpenter who could bring wood carvings to life, and he brought his tree to life, he'd have more wood to make things out of later. Let's be a magical carpenter! Besides, since when have Titans been unable to handle recursive absurdity? I'm looking at you, "She Who Lives In her Name".

This is also one of the two most powerful possibilities, and one that impressed Wordblood. Time also has some disadvantages (see below). I'm also willing to put up with a Willful Deva (that's part of the point, in this case). My favorite option is Will... if we can do it.

>Time
I do like this element. The advantages have been discussed, but something that Wordblood said is a disadvantage that others don't seem to be considering, and brings up other concerns.

We really do need to take care to avoid screwing up causality too badly. The Primordial war did a lot of damage there, and caused some horrible problems. I'm not sure that this crew, or Saulanna herself can really handle that. Take another look at the links under "Will".

Even if we assume that we can handle the responsibility, and not muck up with causality too much... if we screw with it even a little, we may well invite the interference of the Star Heroes, who's job it is to fix muck-ups in the Loom of Fate.

Speaking of Star Heroes, I think that we'll probably have some overlap with the 5 (6? 6+?) Maidens of Fate. Fate and Time seem highly related, after all. Saturn has "endings" as her explicit domain, and "beginnings" of many kinds are a part of the domain of Venus. This is not necessarily a negative, just something to consider, especially if we decide to also go for a light element deva later.

I like the element over-all, and while I'm not entirely confident this crew can handle it, I'm confident enough to make this my #2 pick.

Also, if we DO make a Time Lord, I think he should be a ginger this time. ;)

-----

As for the others, I've got ideas on what to do with them, and many of these are based on Jukashi's assessments. Obviously, actually acting on any of these can wait until later. Still, I think that having a good idea of where certain elements might fit best later can give us a better idea of what to vote on for now.

Lord Souls for Saulanna
Love: Healing, social, or would go really well with that purpose of maternal / nurturing (though that one might be best as a noble).
Life: Creation, Healing, or a Noble Deva to the Healing Deva
Rebirth: Healing, or a Noble Deva to the healing Deva
Knowledge: Seeing
Light: Soooo many purposes for this one, particularly investigation, revelation, and combat against the darkness, if we go that rout.
Heroism: This should be the element we use to make our Kung Fu Master Lord. We have to have one of those eventually.
Growth: Pair this one with the purpose of training, thus helping Saulanna to grow, as well as the other members of her inner world, and eventually others. This might also do well as a noble soul for our Kung Fu Hero Deva.

Noble Souls for Saulanna
Balance: To aid us in managing any conflicts between the Devas we create within Saulanna. Might work better as a Lord soul.
Connections: To help cement Saulanna as the main titan Deva.
Unity: Has some of the benefits of the two above.
Self/Identity: To help cement Saulanna as the main Titan Soul, and also to make it easier to come back from a potential bad end, may also help against mind control.
Restraint: If we don't go with Will as a Lord soul, we should make a noble soul like this, in this position. It would also work under the Will Feeder, or possibly under feeding, even if we don't make Will the Feeding Deva.

Noble Souls for Wordblood
Culture: Well, I think it's a useful element to have, and it's close to Wordblood, so why not give it to him? For some reason, I'm now imagining word blood with a top hat. Smashing look old chum. :P
Thought: He wants it, he used to have it, we like the element, let him have it.
Rationality: Well since we're probably not going to create a Deva of Order, perhaps a Noble of Rationality or Debate, or a caste of commoners of this sort.
>>
No. 63019 ID: f2c20c

I think Saulanna felt inherently insulted by it because it would conflict with her Element. Think about it for a minute. If Saulanna is part of a Titan, it stands to reason that she is like her other Souls, and has an Element and Purpose. Either her Element is Will, or something close to it. What her Purpose is is unknown though.
>>
No. 63020 ID: 0c2247

For a Feeder soul, Time is probably best.

However, I'd like to plan a Lord soul for "Loyalty". It would secure Saulanna's control, and having a lord soul dedicated to loyalty would work in our favor when her nature is eventually discovered. Even moreso if that Lord has nobles for Love and Family, and Saulanna openly considers Luna her mother in a literal sense.
>>
No. 63021 ID: 84df54

Where would I go / who would I talk to if I had some suggestion that might make the discussion thread a bit more usable?
>>
No. 63022 ID: 886a4d

>>63018
Truth would be a good Noble soul for wordblood. It's something he doesn't have at the moment.
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No. 63023 ID: e297bb

>>63019
I toyed with that idea as well, but I think a human explanation is entirely plausible. Then again, the explanations don't need to be entirely mutually exclusive. In this cosmology, humans were made to be willful creatures who submitted themselves to the Titans and Gods in prayer, and are one of the few creatures not under an inherent gease to another form of life.

>>63020
Interesting concept. I can very well support a Lord soul devoted to helping to get the various other Lord Souls to work together, and be loyal to Saulanna... though I think we might also be able to manage that function using Noble Souls in the House of Saulanna. I'm not sure which way would be better. It might be good to consult with Wordblood on that.

>>63022
Mmm. Either word-blood, or the Seer of Knowledge. Personally, I think that Truth and Knowledge are more tightly tied than Truth and Communication.

Really, I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge.

>>63021
I'm not sure. If it's a technical suggestion, the admins, probably, if you can figure out how to get a hold on the admin team. I regret that I can't be more helpful.
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No. 63026 ID: 3338b5

>>63021
I would think you could bring it up here? It's not as if we have a meta-discussion thread for discussing the discussion.

>I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge
Is there a reason different Lords couldn't have similar nobles serving them? There's going to be some redundancy in a parallel arrangement of power.

Any ideas where we should be spending our titans will from the new ghosts after we make the new deva? I would think we'd want to spend a point upgrading Saulanna to replace the loss of the feeder creation. I'd also like to spend a point or two powering up Wordblood to make him more directly useful (preferably far enough that he unlocks his own energy meter, an equivilent of moon points- word points or whatever), although every point we spend in him necessitates a point spend on Saulanna to keep her on top.
>>
No. 63030 ID: e297bb

>>63026

I do think that there is reason. Based on my understanding of what Wordblood is saying in >>/quest/468303, having Lords that are too close together does not allow them enough conceptual room to "grow". This would seem to imply that they can't have overlapping Nobles, or that doing so causes problems. Keep in mind that if two Lords overlap too much, they can bleed into each-other and become inexorably drawn together into a single Deva.

In fact, that might actually be what is happening to Saulanna and Wordblood, causing the two to merge more over time. It's only come up a few times, but it worried Wordblood.

Hmm. If having more Lords doesn't fix that, we might want to establish some Nobles for both Wordblood and Saulanna that are in different conceptual directions from one another.

As for ideas on spending TW:
Based on >>/quest/409526 it will take 4 of our 5 measures of Titans will to create the Feeding Deva, and 2 of however many we have after feeding, in order to return her Soul Force to 3, not just 1. It'd would also take 2 measures to raise Wordblood's Soul Force to 3, and 3 to increase ours to 4 to stay ahead.

While I can support raising Soul Force back to 3, for several reasons, I'd rather not spend the TW to raise it to 4, and Wordblood's to 3, at least for now.

If we need to, I think we should spend 1 TW on an ability to keep the feeding from flaring our Soul Fire. There's also the possibility that we might be able to boost efficiency even further than we have with an additional expenditure. Those would be things to do before feeding, if at all possible.

I'd like to improve Saulanna's ability to resist the various arguments, but all of the direct stats for that are passive.

People have suggested raising Saulanna's appearance score. I like the idea of doing so, particularly while she takes a bath and otherwise tidies and makes her self up.

I also like the idea of granting Wordblood abilities based around communication, particularly his existing ability to parry. I'm just not sure how to formulate those ideas. A dazzling display of linguistics? A powerful verbal parry?

Finally, if we have any TW left over after preparing for social combat, we might want to dump it into improving our new Feeding Deva's long-term TW generation ability, or keeping it back for an emergency expenditure.
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No. 63032 ID: 3338b5

If we stay inside the houses of Lords metaphor, than each house is going to have common needs. Every household needs a manager, a bookeeper / recordskeeper, a housekeeper, etc. And I would think they'd be cut of their master's cloth- so the butler of the house of words won't blend into the butler of the house of time, because their elements are different.
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No. 63035 ID: e297bb

>>63030
You're talking about overlap of purpose, so I'll address that first. Every business needs a book keeper, but a hotel doesn't need a gunsmith, and a gun store doesn't need room service. Similarly, it's dangerous to have too many houses within a kingdom concentrate on war, or on the production of a particular good (say, cloth), even if all of them have their own internal book keepers. This can lead to trade wars, or to civil wars.

The focus of my prior discussion, however, was element. Take the example of two lords that are too similar in element, an Aide of Communication, and a Feeder of Culture. These Lords (and their houses) might draw together and merge over time, fight each-other over turf, or be too stifled to grow, by having Nobles of associated elements. The method for this merger hasn't been precisely explained.

Even if Knowledge and Words are far enough apart to not be stifled in growth, if they both pick the same element (Truth) for one of their Nobles, then that overlap may cause them to grow into each-other, and merge inexorably.
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No. 63036 ID: 63f851

...So, what does this room smell like, anyways?
>>
No. 63037 ID: beeca1

>>63036
The sound the color pink makes or some other such synesthesiac shit.
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No. 63048 ID: f2c20c

>>63030
Wordblood's overlap is only present because they are both parts of one Titan. They aren't merging; Wordblood has only ever been worried about Saulanna's soul power being lower than his. That happening would make it quite likely that he would take over as King, and he doesn't want that, possibly due to his Purpose.
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No. 63054 ID: cee89f

>>63020
What purpose would we tie to that element? Defense?

>>63018
Let's name him 'The Doctor!' =D

>>63048
Wordblood implied that the Queen is determined by whoever the Lordly devas feel loyalty to. The issue wasn't that he would take control, just that he was personally uncomfortable with having a higher soul force.

>>63036
Well, we're underground in a Shadowland. It probably smells like a dark, dank cave filled with death.

>>63032
...Actually, now that i think about it, do Noble and Common Devas neccesarily HAVE TO be connected to only one Lord/Noble, respectively? Like, say we decided later to get a Knowledge Seeing Deva, and wanted both Seer and Wordblood to have a truth Noble. Would we be able to make ONE truth noble, and have it serve both of them?

(It struck me that this particular scenario might come about on it's own if we make two truth sub-devas and they merged, as Lords supposedly can do.)

Afterthought: Or could we make a Truth subdeva for Saulanna that would work in the same manner?
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No. 63057 ID: 38cd76

How about Beauty? I like Beauty. A beauty feeding deva would make saulana have to seek after and cause beauty basically, in order to gain power. I like that concept.
>>
No. 63060 ID: e297bb

>>63048
I'm talking about how he is confused, and concerned about times like this: >>/questarch/211992
I thought that there was some discussion of the two bleeding into each-other more than was healthy, but looking back, I can't find anything from Jukashi on it. My mistake.

>>63054
Well I'm glad that someone got the joke.
If we really do name him that, it would really confuse the rest of the world until he became a known entity.
"Oh, so he's a Lord of Healing?"
"Nope, he's a deva that makes me more awesome because time."
"... and he's named the doctor."
"Yep!"

>>63054
A Noble is a part of their Lord, just like the Lord is a part of the King (or Saulanna's case, queen). So if the two share a noble, that'd be overlap in who they, themselves are.

Well we have lots of questions about this, and what would and wouldn't be safe, practical, or downright doable. Enough so that we should probably seek clarification in quest, or here from Jukashi, when we get close enough to making Noble souls, or start picking out elements for other Nobles. That's probably several challenges away, though.

>>63036
If you mean IC, it's a ruin that's been dug out, and looks like it has wood supports, but it seems to have been mostly cleared to the walls. My guess is that it smells a bit like soil, more like dust, and possibly rotted wood and mildew.

If you mean the chat? Hmmm.... aaahhh... I'm going to saaaay... muffins. Oh! with warm, melted butter. And jam, jam would be brilliant!

>>63057
Well I prefer beauty to ugliness as well. However, in my opinion, focusing on going around making things beautiful is really superficial. Further, people overly focused on it tend to get really wierd, and start spreading impractical ugliness that they call beauty, because they forget that in most cases beauty has it's roots in practical application, and if you cut away that root, the beauty withers and dies.

I want to keep Saulanna well out of the territory of Eva Longoria (better known by her parody, Cruella de Ville), or rust-sculptor Albert Paley.
>>
No. 63064 ID: 7f2a1b

If the deva ends up being Time (which seems very probable), can we Time it up so that the creation process isn't painful? :<
>>
No. 63065 ID: 886a4d

A better feeder soul name would be the Master.
>>
No. 63067 ID: 3dd855

>>63065
...Who will promptly scheme to (and quite possibly successfully) usurp Saulanna's Queen throne. I realize that you, and the others, are seeking pleasure via referencing Doctor Who, but do remember that this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest.
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No. 63068 ID: 3338b5

Wrong franchise, guys. The time devourer should obviously be named Lavos.

>this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest
Man, just think if we had made ourself the titan of the internet. Then it totally would have been. :V
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No. 63071 ID: aa76fd

Well, I kind of figured the Feeding Deva would be like a butler. Giving us well prepared meals along with his crew of cooks. Time also makes me think of clockwork stuff(clocks and time).. so why not make him Mr. Clocksworth? The clockwork time feeding deva?
>>
No. 63072 ID: 70c0f2

Personally, I like the idea of a time whale.

Although it's possible all our Devas are going to end up draconic in nature as Worldbood is. Or maybe, since it's essentially a spiritual cutting of Saulanna, it'll be some kind of raccoon after all?
>>
No. 63073 ID: cee89f

>>63067
Wait. Who will be usurping the throne? >.> Because what you've got there implies that it'll be the Time Deva if we name him/her the Master. But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

...Granted, that would drive the chances up considerably, but naming Wordblood 'Cassandra Cain' wouldn't have made him mute, or a combat deva.
>>
No. 63075 ID: 3dd855

>>63073
Yes, I am referring to the deva named "The Master". Because, I think should be bleedingly obvious, by naming the deva so Saulanna is acknowledging its superiority and thus abdicates in favor of The Master.

>Wordblood as Cassandra Cain
...Hmm, perhaps I should have separated my two sentences. You have completely misunderstood. I hope I have given enough information to clarify my intent in my above response.

A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.
>>
No. 63076 ID: cee89f

>>63075
I get that 'the Master' would be a huge ego boost, just not why it's equivalent to saying 'i will treat you as my master'

>A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

Essentially, that the name wouldn't affect it's loyalty. (unless we picked something deliberately antagonist, say 'Stupid Douchebag' or 'Loser') If we created a Deva that wanted to usurp us, it would want to usurp us even if we called it the Servant or Loyalty. It's nature would remain unchanged because at the end of the day our names do not define who we are (except true names, but I don't think we were talking about picking THAT out)
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No. 63078 ID: aa76fd

Technically, that is EXACTLY what we are doing here. We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name. Hell, considering we are making it out of literal bits of ourselves, whatever we name it WILL likely effect it. That means nothing like 'The Master' or 'The Time Lord'. It doesn't feel creative or neat and would make our new deva feel rather 1 dimensional.

So honestly, let's think of something original or at least not a carbon copy of trade marked characters, OK? We can do better than that.
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No. 63079 ID: bf54a8

except we sorta ARE. we are talking about the FIST name of a being who's very identity is controlling the flow of energy.

we don't want to implant the seed of the idea of "if i was in charge things would be MUCH more efficient" maximizing efficiency and gains is what they are all about.
>>
No. 63080 ID: 34d817

>>63078
>We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name.
Eh? Why would we be the one to give them their true name at all? Their true name is the essence of what they are, not merely a label given to them by someone else. We can call them whatever we wish, but their true name will be writ upon them from the moment of their creation. Wordblood will be able to tell us what it is.
>>
No. 63082 ID: f2c20c

>>63076
How exactly can you say "I will call you Master" without being subservient? Anyway, it's a dumb name. They might want to name themselves anyway so let's wait on talking about names until we know we'll have something to name.
>>
No. 63085 ID: cee89f

>>63079
If it has those thoughts, it would have them whatever name we give it. This is a being literally steeped in the idea of Time, even if it can't decide 'this will never have happened' it'll probably have SOME ability to predict the future or retroactively give itself knowledge that will save our lives.

...

Heh. "*gets born* QUICK, SHE'S COMING! WARFORM!!"

>>63082
Easy, you add 'The'. The Master makes it sound like a title unto itself - calling someone 'Surgeon' doesn't mean 'MY surgeon'.

Oh I agree it's a bad idea to call him that - we might as well name him Lord Zed or Darth Vader. I just don't see how it's tantamount to SAULANNA saying "I'm a subservient bitch who will do whatever the butch says!"

>>63078
Not to flood the discussion thread, but... Are we sure he's not going to just pick one for himself? =/ Wordblood did, if i remember correctly (though admittedly I was a little late to the party so I read through the actual events of chapter 1 without the discussion bits therein)

If not...

Flowery:
The Weaver Within Wonder?
The Keeper of Times Long Past?
One who Maintains the Passage of Time?
The Watchman (watchwoman?) of Forgotten Events?
Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon? (I like this one =3)
The Masked One who Sees the Fabric of Time

Less flowery:
Ouran? Nakal? Naz? Rolokroth? Gozeo? Renuzit? No never mind, that's dumb... uh... Yu'Shan... no wait, i think somebody in this setting uses that name... eh... Uru? Ba'Sim? Bill?

...Eh. I like 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon', tbh. Or Gozeo, if we want something less flowery. The others are there in case ya'll like any of 'em more than I did.
>>
No. 63087 ID: 3dd855

>>63085
>Feeder Soul of Time seeing the future
Sounds more suitable for a Seeing Soul, rather than a Feeder Soul.

>The Master as title
And? Lord Souls are expressions of aspects of the Titan-overself. For one Lord Soul, even if she is the Queen, to call another Lord Soul The Master (just that, lacking any other qualifier that clarifies the domain of its authority), then, naturally, The Master is the Ruler Soul.

That is, Saulanna is saying, "You, who are an aspect of the Titan I embody, is The Master: the soul that commands and is obeyed. ... Yes, the Throne naturally belongs to the one who commands the Lord Souls; and you command the Lord Souls, as follows your title. Long Live The Master!"

>names
...I don't like any of those things at all.

And, let's stop discussing names/titles please. All this serves is to fill up the disc thread.

Also, Yu Shan is the name of Heaven: the residence of the Celestial Gods and the Titans before them, and the home of the Celestial Bureaucracy.
>>
No. 63089 ID: b6edd6

>>63085
I think the flowery names are the right general direction (assuming we have input on their name to begin with), but half of those are not related to either their function or their element.
How about something like Measure of the Innumerable Moments?
>>
No. 63091 ID: cee89f

>>63087
I never said he could show US these things. Just for comedic effect. Or heck, he could just eat possible scenarios until we've only got one possible outcome left.

>Yu Shan
Aw crap, that's right...

>>63089
Most of them require a VERY liberal interpretation of the function. Examples:

>Weaver
That one refers to efficient management and distribution (taking things that don't work and placing them where they do) and uses fabric as a metaphor for the energy being distributed.

>Keeper
Keepers sometimes are also responsible for maintenance.

>Maintains
We picked time in large part because he could unspend titan's will, right?

And I'm gonna drop this now. At least until we know if we NEED to give it a name...

...I'm still going with Legacy.
>>
No. 63095 ID: ecfcdc

For a name, perhaps something that just directly concatenates purpose and element? So like, "Eater of Eons".
>>
No. 63098 ID: 63f851

>>63095
Eons?!? I like the name, but you do know how big an eon is, right? We're not Galactus here, Eater of Seconds would be more accurate.

I say we wait and see Jukashi's characterization first, then we can come up with a name. We have no idea yet how he/she/it might act, or if it's gonna have the form of a raccoon or not. And, of course, Jukashi might already have a name in mind.
>>
No. 63106 ID: b24894

She Whose Fluffy Tail Endures The Inexorable Weight of Eons
>>
No. 63108 ID: cee89f

>>63106
'Endures' implies both a burden and a defensive deva. What about 'She Whose Fluffy Tail Consumes the Weight of Eons'

We'll call her 'Eon' for short... Actually, let's just call her 'Eon'.
>>
No. 63116 ID: 9b155d

I believe you all have missed the fact that most Titans, from what we've been told, seem to try and hide the specific nature of their souls. Hints at their purpose in their name should probably be avoided.

Also, we probably shouldn't be trying to name something we might not need to name and is likely to be something very different then what we're expecting.
>>
No. 63117 ID: bf54a8

>he who bleeds the unknown word
>has word powers
>authochthon
>machines

yeah i don't think they really hide it that much.
>>
No. 63118 ID: 60d45e

Fluffy Tails!
>>
No. 63120 ID: 3dd855

>>63117
Their Element tends to be obvious, yes, but Wordblood said that Titans try to hide the Purposes of their Souls in the last (few) updates, remember?
>>
No. 63123 ID: cee89f

>>63117
The latter doesn't show the specific purpose of the soul, and the former is for the titan as a whole.

>>63116
Probably, but there's not much else to discuss until the soul is actually born.

Quick recommendation: if you want the subject to change, CHANGE THE SUBJECT XP

I still think 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon' is a good name.

>>63118
...Let's save that for the raccoon soul.
(if we do end up doing that and Wordblood doesn't give some variation of 'oh dear stars, you weren't joking...' i will be very disappoint)
>>
No. 63124 ID: 9b155d

>>63123
We could discuss future purposes of Devas and their elements.

On such a subject, here's some that I like:

1. Purpose: Seeing; Element: Knowledge
I honestly wanted our inevitable Warrior/War soul to have Knowledge as it's element, but it seems a bit of a no brainer to make our Seeing Soul knowledge based.

2. Purpose: Create; Element: Life
We were told Life could be used for creation as well as healing. I personally like it for a Deva whose purpose is to Create. I think building up a powerbase would be much quicker, and also much more customized to our methods that way. I imagine Healing could have a lot of other viable elements anyway.

3. Purpose: Teaching; Element: Magic
In normal Exalted, normal humans can awaken to magic, but it's rare and doing it on their own is a very big deal. Assuming things work more or less the same in quest, this should not only allow for more easily developing our powers, buts sets things up to ensure even our mooks can use artifacts.

4. Purpose: Create; Element: Magitech
This might step on the toes of both the Life and Magic Devas, but given that the creation of Magitech complements the creation of Life that's been taught Magic, I'm hoping the overlap is more complementary and less lethal. Definitely something I'd ask Wordblood about first though. If it works, the synergy between this one and the previous two should be pretty damn powerful.
>>
No. 63126 ID: cee89f

>>63124
Thank you for offering an alternative this time =p

Personally I think the seeing deva should have the Truth element, for reasons put below. Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

-----

Purpose: Seeing, Element: Truth
This would grant us a form of truesight, and if we gave it a knowledge subsoul later we might be able to scry. While either Knowledge or Truth could get the other later, I think that at the moment Truesight of our surroundings is more important than scrying on other places - especially since we know little about places in the world we could potentially scry on.

Purpose: Healing, Element: Rebirth
This would allow us to heal the wounds of others, but also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

Purpose: Creating, Element: Love
We want to be a positive force in the world. Creating and spreading joy and love seems a great way to do that.

Purpose: Offense, Element: Raccoon
Raccoonbending aside, raccoons can fight bobcats to a standstill. This is NOT a creature you want to mess with... and if Raccoon can't be an element, ask Wordblood what it would take TO MAKE IT ONE!! =p

Purpose: Defense, Element: Movement
In addition to improving our ability to dodge, we would gain the ability to run from battles we're heavily outclassed in. And let's be honest with ourselves here: THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN.

I wanted to put a socially inclined Deva here, but we've already got Wordblood, we'd be better off just improving on him.

Purpose: Stealth, Element: Secrets
Using a specific element for a Stealth deva would require that said element NOT stand out in whatever setting we happen to be in - a darkness Deva, for instance, might not be able to hide us in a sufficiently bright room, since a massive cloak of darkness is going to draw attention (could be taking it too literally) A secret would just make us... unnoticeable. We wouldn't need to use anything in specific, just will ourselves to be a secret and BAM! nobody knows we're there unless we want them to.

Purpose: Travel, Element: Light or Desire
Desire could potentially let us just will to be somewhere - we want it hard enough and we go there. Light, on the other hand... well, it's a little thing called LIGHTSPEED =D

-----

...Oh stop looking at me like that, you weren't gonna use those brain cells for anything important anyway =p
>>
No. 63127 ID: bf54a8

no he said two deva with the same purpose one will automatically become a noble to the other. just instantly. based on power and such.
>>
No. 63130 ID: 9b155d

Neither of those are true. He said Devas that share elements will always devour each other, Devas with similar Elements have problems as it limits their ability for growth from their Nobles, and Devas sharing a purpose will USUALLY cause War.

So yes, a Deva with the same purpose as another and an Element closely linked to the element of another is pushing things, hence why I said I'd definitely want to ask Wordblood first, but given the specific thing I was suggesting, I think it MIGHT be able to work, and if so would be a pretty powerful combination.
>>
No. 63131 ID: 9b155d

>>63126
>also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

None of those are incurable in Exalted, though we might be able to cure them sooner then is normal and get around damage that magically resists healing. Though the result might be wiping out who the person currently is as it forces them to reincarnate or something.
>>
No. 63136 ID: cee89f

>>63127
-.- No.

>>63130
That's what I said. See?
>Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

>>63131
There's also the fact we could bring souls like the slavers (possibly bad, but we're not sure) into ourselves and remake them as commoner devas or something. But ya know.
>>
No. 63139 ID: b3952d

I've been thinking for a bit about what we're going to do after we create the feeder soul. Given that we're going to have new souls to nom on we're likely going to have 10+ TW after everything. This would let us boost our Soul force to 4, boost Wordblood to 3, and have enough left over to become at least as pretty as the Deathknight chick and gain a random new power. Possibly lots of new powers, if our Feeder is really good.

While that's very nice, I'm somewhat concerned as to what the others will think when we come down an hour later and the ones with supernatural senses can tell we're vastly more powerful than we were a little while ago. Even the unobservant should notice that we've put on a cup size or two.

Do we want to worry about this?
>>
No. 63140 ID: 70c0f2

>>63139
If we're not too extravagant with the upgrading, we can pass off a one point increase in beauty as having freshened up.

And increase in moon power might be harder to cover up, but if it's not too great, and we put enough time between then and now, maybe they'll assume we just weren't up to full power before?

Longer term, some ability to conceal or obscure the true extent of our power might be useful.
>>
No. 63141 ID: 9b155d

>>63136
Not quite what you said. Those with the same purpose might go to War and only those with the same Element consume one another.(Unless, I suppose, the two Devas sharing a purpose have a purpose or elements that mean going to War IS an attempt to eat one another. Gluttony/Feeding/ect ect). Also he never said compete at best for sharing a purpose, just that it usually causes War, which I believe probably means they become territorial over their specific role and have an instinctive want to be in charge of things within' that role.

It's a very important difference when we're talking about Elements that, when combined with the purpose, lead to roles that don't actually have much overlap but synergize well with one another. I imagine that usually Devas whose purposes are along the lines of Social, War, Feeding, Stealth, Healing, Seeing, ect ect tend to have significant overlap in role regardless of their element. Create Devas who are in a lot of ways on the opposite end of the Spectrum(Organic and Inorganic) are a bit unusual in that regard.
>>
No. 63142 ID: c735d3

>>63126
Having Truth as the element for a Lord deva might make it harder for us to hide our titanic nature. On the other hand, it might make Sol more positively inclined towards us. He likes truth.
>>
No. 63144 ID: 70c0f2

>>63142
Hmm. Potentially something like a Seer of Truth could have some sway over who could see the truth- and act as a roundabout means of concealment? Then again, that might be anathema to it's nature, the same way blocking understanding was to Wordblood.
>>
No. 63146 ID: 1edffd

>>63141
War is a competition for resources and/or attempted destruction of your opponent. Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

Assuming you disagree with that interpretation of war (not gonna lie, that happens a lot) 'compete' is better than 'war' (and in my opinion, better than 'cooperate'*), and they're both going to try and get their own agendas forward. So yeah. At best, they compete.

And as you said, consumption occurs with similar elements, while the case here was identical purposes... aaaaand i said 'consume'. Okay, you got me there.

*A competition forces one to improve oneself.

>>63140
Er, if our Soul Fire wasn't active (which I'm hoping is part of our plan -to WAIT until it dies down) how would they be able to tell our MP increased?

>>63140
If we absolutely MUST hide our soul force, we could create a stealth soul with the TW from these two slavers, but other than that, we'll probably just have to risk the death hero and/or moon heroes noticing and hope they keep their mouths shut if they do to try and keep it hidden from each other. We're woefully unprepared for another go-round, as we are.

Instead of making a Stealth soul though, i'd say we should increase both our soul force and Wordblood's, so he can gain some of those social abilities he was talking about. Specifically the idea planting, so we can get them to decide it's best that they keep as much secret from each other as they can. The chance of us needing to social fight again is fairly high.

>>63142
Correct me if I'm wrong: a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/
>>
No. 63149 ID: 70c0f2

>how would they be able to tell our MP increased?
I'm assuming there's a way to sense mystic power, at least on a gross scale, if nothing else. Possibly even specific abilities with more resolution. They may not notice, of course.

>Soul fire
I'm hoping that once we get the new Deva online, it'll be less of a problem. The soul fire is basically the result of an inefficiency, right? We accumulate magical contamination or radiation when we spend moon points, because we are not converting all the energy to the task we want. There's waste. Hopefully, with a Deva on dedicated mystic energy management, the effect will be lessened.

> a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/
I think that's too narrow an interpretation. I mean, Wordblood squeezes a hell of a lot under aiding with communication- he's even said he might one day be able to drop information right into people's heads (a sort of sneaky almost mind control communication!).

Showing is a really just the other side of sight, after all. Once party shows, the other sees what is shown. Showing exists to be seen.
>>
No. 63150 ID: 9b155d

>>63146
It doesn't say they always go to War. The exact wording was "Sharing Purposes usually causes war" so the best case scenario might actually mean they get along wonderfully but that it's extremely rare.

As for >Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

There are canon examples of Third Circle Devas betraying the Primordials they're part of in Exalted. Granalkin a former Third Circle Deva of the Primordial Mardukth, Who Holds In Thrall is now the warden of the Silver Chair, also known as "the Archer on the Silver Pass". Turned from Deva into a God by the Siderals after his betrayal. There's also Inari who was the actual Fetich soul of an unnamed Primordial who helped KILL said primordial. Nothing prevents Devas from offing one another.
>>
No. 63152 ID: cee89f

>>63150
And i said 'tends to', not 'always'

=p

>>63150
Wordblood has said that the Queen can be remade by the Commoner/Noble Devas of her house. I assumed the same could be done for Lords.
>>
No. 63163 ID: 1da170

Obviously, we should make the following souls:

Time
Raccoons
Time Raccoons
Raccoon Time
Time Raccoons Time
>>
No. 63172 ID: 9b155d

>>63152
The remade version is not the same Deva, just a Deva with the same Element and Purpose. And if they're going to War over the Deva butting in on their turf, having the Deva remade doesn't solve the problem. Devas can be killed, it's happened before, and the Nobles would almost certainly be involved in their Lord's War.

My real issue though is more that "Compete at best" when we were told usually they go to war implies there is always going to be some degree of strife between the two when we haven't been told that.

Huh, just noticed how often I keep capitalizing words that seem like they could be elements of a Deva regardless of the context I'm using the word in... I should try and stop that.
>>
No. 63174 ID: cee89f

>>63172
Of course there will be conflict. They're roomates.

>>63163
>Time Raccoons of Time
...

Oh god forgive us, we knew not the horror we would unleash... D=
>>
No. 63183 ID: b24894

Y'know, "Raccoons" is picking up some speed. It's not too late for some of you "Time" people to change your minds.
>>
No. 63185 ID: 70c0f2

>>63183
There should be a law that describes that. The longer you leave the voting open, the more people are going to drift to the silly choice.
>>
No. 63187 ID: cee89f

Okay, look. As awesome an idea Raccoonbending is...
A) RACCOONS ARE NOT AN ELEMENT
B) It was generally agreed that even if it COULD be a Deva's element, Raccoons would be better for something OTHER than a feeding soul (generally either as something for battle or an ascended Hero's soul - though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.)
C) Wordblood's reaction, for the FIRST TIME THAT I CAN REMEMBER, was to not even comment on the potential ramifications of that choice. This is very, VERY bad.
And D), wasn't that a JOKE?!
>>
No. 63188 ID: b6edd6

>though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know
When a weapon is a Deva, is it even possible to make it without sentience?
>>
No. 63189 ID: 70c0f2

>why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.
For the same reason you build a giant mech instead of a tank.

Not because it's more practical, but because it's more awesome.
>>
No. 63190 ID: b24894

When I suggested "Raccoons" as an element, I was being completely serious. I didn't mean it as a joke, and I wasn't being silly. Perhaps it's a little lighthearted (plenty of good things are), but I believe it's a legitimate choice nonetheless.

A Lunar's spirit animal is a special aspect of them that speaks about them in a very personal way. And if it's good enough to be a powerful and defining theme for Saulanna as one of the Exalted, then I think it's good enough for Saulanna as a Primordial.

We also already have an example of a Primordial that is defined by a single animal, even though Gaia probably has a more general power over animal kind. While Kimbery is an ocean that gains power from oceans, who can control the oceans, whom all other oceans are a lesser reflection of, and Malfeas is a city that gains power from cities, and can control cities, and whom all other cities are a lesser reflection of, and so on... we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar.

He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.

So, Saulanna? I think, already having been defined as emphatically Raccoon-like, deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max.
>>
No. 63191 ID: b6edd6

>we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar. [...] He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.
Sounds pretty boaring to me :V
>>
No. 63193 ID: 70c0f2

>deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max
I can accept that, but it doesn't make much sense as a feeder Deva. We need a more appropriate purpose for dominion over all raccoondom.

Fill in an appropriate word, and we'll create the <foo> of Raccoons when we've got some Titan's will to spare. Don't worry, it won't take much... time. B)
>>
No. 63202 ID: cee89f

>>63188
We're TALKING about the HERO'S SOUL *twitch*

>>63189
You don't make that mech able to think for itself, though! Why would you give a weapon you're supposed to control YOURSELF the ability to make decisions?! All you're doing is increasing the likelihood you won't be able to control it.

>>63190
Oh yeah, it was SUCH a serious suggestion that should be making raccoon ropes, raccoon waves and a raccoon bazooka.

>>63191
>boaring
*facepalm*

>>63191
Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

>>63193
Summoner? Warrior?

>it won't take much... time. B)
... *sigh* well, got to now.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH~!
>>
No. 63204 ID: 9b155d

>>63202
>Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

Eh, Isidoros does embody a lot of the characteristics Boars are usually used to represent. That could very well mean he just has Third Circle Demons devoted to those concepts though. Probably more likely to be the case actually since he's really a Black Hole in the shape of a Boar. Basically a representation of an unstoppable force. He has a minimum of Eighteen Third Circle Demons though, so he may very well have one specifically with an element of Boars.
>>
No. 63205 ID: 84df54

Wait a minute...
How was 'Energy' never been suggested as an element for a soul devoted to energy absorption and management?
>>
No. 63209 ID: 42ace1

>>63204
The Dragon's Shadow doesn't have a Soul with the Element of Dragons; just aspects of Shadowy, Slithery, and Slickness (among others) that add up to giving him the form of a dragon. Who is to say that Isidoros is not the same?

>>63205
A little too broad (and rather non-evocative) to my imagination; 'Energy' includes kinetic, and thermal, and electromagnetic, and Essence, and excitement, and, simply put, is too undefined/unrestricted. How do you define 'Energy'?
>>
No. 63214 ID: 70c0f2

>How do you define 'Energy'?
Simple. The capacity of a system to do work.

Although in this setting, you'd have to expand the definition to include more than just physical systems, and you'd have to include forms of energy that don't show up in your average textbook.

But yeah, physics aside, it's really not interesting enough to work with. It's like doubling down on the purpose to no gain. He who Produces and Regulates Mystic Energy through Energy is kinda dull.
>>
No. 63216 ID: b6edd6

>>63205
Will would serve the same purpose (with Titan's Will as the specific energy we are dealing with) as well as doing other useful stuff.
>>
No. 63223 ID: cee89f

...Ya know, I'm beginning to think TIME is going to win. Just a feeling.
>>
No. 63225 ID: 84df54

>>63209
Unrestricted? have you taken a look at us lately? We have the opportunity to eventually gain complete dominion over anything and everything!

Elements are supposed to be extremely broad, especially for Lordly Devas. we're supposed to eventually refine them with sub-souls. I find Time to be totally wasted as element for energy generation/management and extremely boring to boot. What are we going to do when we need some extra TW? Sit around and wait? We could be using Time to see into the past and future, improve our speed, reaction time, healing etc. Hell we could probably use it to speed up the processes of any other Feeder Deva we picked, and those aren't even being ambitious! think what we could have done when we got powerful enough to mess with the causality and time-space!

Of course this is all pretty much moot, unless people start deleting their votes and re-casting we're going to be stuck with Time or (Sol Invictus Help Us!) Raccoons.
>>
No. 63230 ID: 3dd855

>>63225
By 'unrestricted', I meant that 'Energy' can rather easily be expanded to absurdity. That is, Essence is a form of energy and therefore a strong case can be made that the Element 'Energy' should cover Essence. The entirety of the Exalted universe (Creation+Yu Shan+Malfeas+the Underworld+Pure Chaos+...), is made of Essence. (Barring some weirdness like Oblivion, Elsewhere.) Therefore, a Feeding Soul of Energy can eat the entire universe. I hope that I do not need to explain why being able to eat the universe is a bad thing.

TD;DR: unrestricted=goddamn too broad in scope
>What are we going to do when we need some extra TW?
Eat souls. The only method we currently have so far, and the only method that we will have even after we create the Feeding Soul. The bonus provided by the Element is small and really only serves to give thematic structure toward its powers.

>lets forget that people give a damn about casualty (and there are Incarna whose jobs are to enforce casualty)!
...Seriously? You want to fuck with casualty and space-time? Really?
>>
No. 63232 ID: cee89f

>>63225
>>63230

Energy has the same problem Civilization did:
>>62730
Specifically, Civilization had too many possible definitions, so we'd have to lock it in as one or another. (Civ also had the problem that many of those things were not primordial enough, but one thing at a time)
>>
No. 63242 ID: 84df54

>>63230
I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea. I'm just saying that it's a waste of a good element.

>>63232
I disagree.

Civilization is complicated because it is a purely human concept and it's definition is hazy at best. A civilization is when a groups technology, social structure, laws, beliefs, media, etc. have advanced past some ill defined point. It is a theme, not an element.

Energy is simpler, with a quick google I found: 'The property of matter and radiation that is manifest as a capacity to perform work' and 'Power derived from the utilization of physical or chemical resources'.

There are a lot of types of energy but it is still fundamentally energy. Civilization has a lot of aspects but no one of them makes a civilization. If anything Energy is a small element. Just for some scope and precedent; we just learned that Gaia has a second level soul for Energy (not linking, never works and the post is enormous. Just search for 'Hesiesh') and a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.
>>
No. 63250 ID: fb9917

This quest needs more Devil-Tigers.

We haven't met our bondmate yet have we?
>>
No. 63254 ID: 3dd855

>>63242
The Energy of Hesiesh is expressed via his Element of Fire, so we can safely say that thermal energy is entirely within its domain. As Lightning is part of the Air of Mela, and Light and Passion belong to other Nobles of Hesiesh, we can safely say that electricity and light as well as non-physical energy are not included in its domain. Magnetism may be included, but since light is not, then we can say that it is problably not included in the Energy Noble's domain. Kinetic Energy possibly may be included, though I think unlikely. Essence may be included, but likely the breadth of aspected Essence it can manipulate is limited to at least non-opposing aspects, if not only (closely-)related aspects.

There, a small, very short, speculative paragraph on the breadth and limits of the Energy domain, derived from what we know in Lunar Quest canon (Lightning being part of Air is Exalted canon, however).

The important thing you should take from this, is that all those things that I said are not part of the Energy Noble's domain? Include them in the potential Energy domain of the possible Lord Soul. Include everything and anything that could be described as energy. (Don't limit yourself to just real world physics, though I think the definition provided is too broad, because Exalted has fictional natural laws as well.)

So, Passion, Light, Fire, Lightning, all those are part of Energy. Essence, from Moon Essence to Earth Essence to Demon Essence to Death Essence (...well, probably not Death Essence), is part of Energy.

Everything is made of Essence. If Energy includes Essence - which it should - then Saulanna, with one Soul, can do anything.

>a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.
I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the discussion we are having. Is this meant to refer to Energy?

Also, for cross-board linking, include the board and only use the post number to which you are linking. See below
>>/quest/468303
that should link to the Jukashi's Element feedback post.
>>
No. 63255 ID: cee89f

>>63250


If i remember correctly it's been implied and speculated (both in and out of the story) that Peregrin is our bondmate, since Abyssals are formed from Solar Exaltations. Ya'd think we'd have a special sense for that, but I wouldn't know.

>>63242

>I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea.
>or even that it's a GOOD IDEA
Uh...
>that it's a waste of a GOOD ELEMENT.
... XP

That definition doesn't really tell us much, since the only definition we have in this universe is for physical manifestations of energy. What TYPE of energy? Potential energy? (i don't wanna be a weeping angel D=) Kinetic energy? Thermal? Electro-magnetic? Mechanical? And that's just OUR universe. What about temporal energy? Magical? Titanic? Essence? Whatever it is Fate uses to affect reality? Elsewhere's 'boredom'? (admittedly, those last two are a stretch >.> I'm not really sure how boredom is formed into a separate plane - i assumed it was a form of potential energy or something)
>>
No. 63256 ID: fb9917

>>63255
I thought at some point it was explicitly stated that Peregrin was NOT our bondmate?
>>
No. 63260 ID: cee89f

>>63256
I dunno, maybe. My memory's kinda fuzzy and I came in partway through Chapter 2 =/

Unrelated: Can we make a Song Deva, so can we sing songs to make ourselves stronger in ludicrous fashions?
>>
No. 63261 ID: 9b155d

>>63225
Here's a quote from Jukashi for you

>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

Also, a Deva of Energy might restrict what other Devas we can make way too much by blocking waaaaaay too many elements.
>>
No. 63270 ID: 5bf190

In regards Energy... don't think too scientifically about it. This is a fantasy, mythology-inspired universe, after all; one where every object and even every universal principle has some magical being attached to it, and reality is upheld by gods and by the expectations and interactions of living beings. Energy is any motive force, but it has more association with willpower and motivation than anything else, even when applied to inanimate objects.

That said, it is too broad for a Lord deva, really. As the sub-Element supporting a Noble deva, however, it's restricted by nature, either as the expression of a fraction of its parent Element, or as that part of its Element that is thematically linked with its parent. So Hesiesh's Energy subsoul could be specifically limited to forms of energy under the dominion of Fire, with further considerations due to the metaphysics of the setting. So in more contemporary forms, its dominion would be heat, and to a more limited level, kinetic force. Alternately, the word "Energy" could be being used in a more metaphorical way, as "life energy", referring to the fire-like processes that fuel the actions of living creatures.

After all, in Exalted, flesh and blood are earthly, physical substances, and so are formed from the Terrestrial Elements; living flesh and blood are hot, so they must contain Fire, just the same way you breathe so you must have Air in you, your blood is wet so you have Water in you, you grow and heal so you have Wood in you, and your bones are hard so you have Earth in you. Similarly, the Light soul would refer not to actual photons being beamed out, but to a forceful, spiritual substance - something that you can make physical objects out of - and which reveals secrets and pushes away darkness. The darkness which, in turn, is an elemental substance and power source in its own right, not merely an absence. Even the actual, official end-all nothingness of the setting, the Void, Oblivion itself, is something that you can shoot at people.

So you have to readjust your mental parameters a little.
>>
No. 63276 ID: 38cd76

I kind of want to start making tons of devas now. The next two we should make as a matching set. Dark and Light, Order and Chaos, Life and Death, that sort of thing. Truth and Deception? Hm... maybe.

Although, even though they are opposites, they are also somewhat related. Could you have a subdeva of one for the other? That would be interesting.
>>
No. 63278 ID: 87eb8c

>I kind of want to start making tons of devas now.

I know, right? Now that we're here, I keep wanting to make a second soul and call it the feeding Deva's twin or something ridiculous like that.

...

Thought. If we happened to discover how our Hero's soul worked, would we be able to create our own Exalted?

... I mean sure, it seems like something we'd need Autocthon's help for, but it's an interesting thought, at least.
>>
No. 63280 ID: 63f851

>>63270
How do I shot time?
>>
No. 63308 ID: cee89f

... I was counting up the votes for fun, and i realized that i forgot to delete one of my vote posts after reposting another one.

...Woops =( I'll go fix that

....aaand apparently i can't >.> Well f***.
>>
No. 63309 ID: 3dd855

>>63308
Go to #tgchan and ask a mod to delete your post then.
>>
No. 63310 ID: cee89f

>>63309
...
Where?
>>
No. 63313 ID: 1f8505

>>63310

Chat room. #tgchan on Rizon.
>>
No. 63315 ID: f2c20c

Actually, it's easier to just report your own post to ask for it to be deleted.
>>
No. 63317 ID: cee89f

>>63313
... uh...

>>63315
Ah, okay.

---

So for some reason i couldn't report the post either (da fug?) so i went to that Rizon thing i knew nothing about. slinkoboy took care of it.

Thank you slink! =3
>>
No. 63318 ID: f2c20c

>>63317
>couldn't report the post
I don't understand. Are you pushing the Report button after clicking the checkbox on the post?
>>
No. 63321 ID: 38cd76

We need a deva for PASSION.

That would be AWESOME.
>>
No. 63326 ID: cee89f

>>63318
Yes. It said something like 'failed to report, go back and try again'. I went and asked a mod directly, it got removed.

>>63321
You mean Desire? That was suggested and had a decent following but hasn't really made it in.
>>
No. 63339 ID: 38cd76

>>63326

Passion and desire are completely different. Desire is the want of something, passion is emotional excitement.

Come to think of it, a Deva of "AWESOME" would also be pretty awesome.
>>
No. 63342 ID: dc2631

>>63339
>Deva of AWESOME

I'LL BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR
>>
No. 63346 ID: cee89f

>>63339
Normally, yes. But 'Desire' as was being suggested here had the connotations of 'lust', which isn't that far from passion.

>Deva of Awesome
FUCK YEAAAAAH!!!
>>
No. 63353 ID: b24894

This could be ours, if you all would only bow to the raccoon.

(Saulanna) Mythos Exultant
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: First (Saulanna) Excellency

Whenever Saulanna succeeds while stunting on an action that could benefit from her Excellency, she may choose to forgo any number of bonus stunting dice she would normally receive. For each die forsaken in this way, put a 1/1 green 'Raccoon token' with Haste into a space adjacent to Saulanna. If there is a face within (Essence x 2) yards, Saulanna may instead create the Raccoons on that face, rather than putting them adjacent to herself.
>>
No. 63354 ID: 63f851

Freaking hell, there are 70 responses in the main thread. That's just too much. I guess this is kinda popular, huh? Jukashi, next time you might wanna put a time limit on responses so you don't get so damn many.
>>
No. 63361 ID: 38cd76

Everyone needs to go and change their votes to:
1.AWESOME
2.AWESOME
3.AWESOME
now.

That would be pretty awesome.
>>
No. 63362 ID: 34d817

>>63354
Clearly, the only solution is to update every thirty minutes so as to avoid being flooded by suggestions.
>>
No. 63364 ID: fb9917

>>63353
This is a feeding soul. Raccoons obviously needs to be saved for a different kind of soul that doesn't force us to eat raccoons. Have you ever eaten a raccoon? It's awful.
>>
No. 63367 ID: 38cd76

"awesome" should also be good for a feeding soul because, being exalted, Saulana should be surrounded by elemental awesome pretty frequently.

Amirite?
>>
No. 63368 ID: 52daec
File 135253890859.png - (328.96KB , 384x800 , explodingknees.png )
63368

>Deva of Awesome

Next update's gonna take a while to get drawn, by the way.
>>
No. 63369 ID: 38cd76

>>63368
This bodes well. :D
>>
No. 63376 ID: 9b155d

>>63368
Out of curiosity how much of that is due to designing the Deva? Always curious about how long character design takes.
>>
No. 63378 ID: 52daec

>>63376

I actually already had designs for a few of the elements that seemed like they'd be most popular.
>>
No. 63379 ID: dd287a

If we're going time, he better have a moustache!

well, unless it's a lady, a lady with a moustache would be kinda wierd.
>>
No. 63385 ID: e677ca

>>63368
This one better have drills
>>
No. 63388 ID: cee89f

>>63379
Let's give him a stetson! Or a bow tie!

Even in exalted, bow ties are still cool
>>
No. 63390 ID: 70c0f2

>>63378
Thank goodness. That means we don't have to endure a further delay of a secondary character creation process in the middle of the quest, or have to deal with a million attempts to craft it into an Expy of some kind.
>>
No. 63399 ID: 404f8a

>>62936
>>63073

I'm posting this in response to these ones because they're the only ones that talk about it that I can find without rereading the entire thread:

We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us. It is as impossible as Ligier or Kagami "overthrowing" Malfeas or Szoreny to become them, or for your left arm to overthrow and become YOU. Remember that the King or Queen soul in the canon game is called the "Fetich" soul or the Primordial's "Heart", they largely define their Primordial progenerator, but that's because their progenerator chose to imbue them with things that define them. Their soul pantheons are called the "Descending Hierarchy" for a reason. The devas or demons (or even the baleful Hecatonchires of the Neverborn) of a Titan are explanation of the Titan; the map is not the territory so to speak... or in our case, the definition is not the word.

Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords. Although, it probably wouldn't be outside our power to do so, if we so chose; hasn't Kimbery done this by canon? On that note, it also wouldn't be outside our, or even our Lordly souls', power to create Common souls directly: Orabilis of Cecelyne does with his Eyes, and all of Autochthon's Divine Ministers do as well.
>>
No. 63402 ID: 34d817

>>63399
>We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us.
>Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords.
This is explicitly wrong. You should probably review the original description we got from Wordblood regarding our soul structure; while Saulanna has a strong natural position and the basic loyalty of her Lord devas, they are most certainly not as to her as her Nobles are and there is the (usually small) possibility of losing Queen status to one of them. Here are some handy links and quotes.

>>58020
>We are both Lords, and as is natural for Lords, one of us is raised to the level of King - or, in this case, Queen. Though in a sense we are equals, the Queen bears the balance of power - her nature dominates and dictates the interactions of all other souls, and she forms the central nexus and root of our identity as a Titan. The other Lords are subservient to her. Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn assert dominion over their Commoners.

>>58102
>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them.
>>
No. 63404 ID: bf54a8

indeed, which is why we were saying calling one 'the master' would put it in a dangerous position, since we are calling it by a high status it would feel it more deserves to be the leader.
>>
No. 63409 ID: 70c0f2

...you know, that's actually a good reason to not make a dedicated social combat Deva. That would kind of put them in the position of natural mediator between the various Lords.
>>
No. 63413 ID: 404f8a

>>63402
I guess I was wrong then: I was working off of knowledge from the original game line, specifically the (Yozi) Cosmic Principle charm from Return of the Scarlet Empress. I didn't even know any of that was there actually,
>>
No. 63417 ID: 6b8c68

>>63409

I disagree. Make a dedicated social one, but make it a noble soul of ours instead of lordly.
>>
No. 63418 ID: cee89f

>>63399
From wordblood's talk on the matter, it is indeed possible for a Queen to be usurped, and expected of us to make nobles and commoners like any other noble deva:

>>58020
>Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn...
>if the former Queen's House has been weakened, or another House is getting too strong, the death of the Queen will shift the balance and a new King or Queen will be raised from one of the other Lords; then, though the old Queen's house will survive and she may be continued as a Lord, the focus of the kingdom's identity - the Titan's identity - will shift and they may become vastly different.

>>58102
Wordblood implies here that Lords compete with each other, and outright says that the Queen can be usurped by other Lords, if those other Lords prefer that Lord or if they become the 'center' around which the other Lords revolve.

So the question becomes, can a Lord kill a queen or cause her to be killed of it's own volition?

Well, Wordblood is our aide and is naturally inclined to help us, so he's going to be less inclined to even consider the possibility. So let's take a look at what he says, and assume that he's biased against the idea that killing Saulanna is something any Deva would consider.

No offense. In fact I think that's a compliment >.>

>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them. However, this usually only happens either if the original King or Queen is severely injured, or if the Titan in question is deliberately trying to evolve into a somewhat different being. Making new devas and shifting their internal power structure is how fully grown Titans grow and change."

He says that lordly devas compete with each other, and that the Queen is not necessarily different in her own nature - simply with how the other lords interact with her. While the lords are subservient to her, this does not mean they are loyal. It seems to me that the Queen status is a much more informal status than Lord, Noble or Commoner.

To me, this implies the following: Even assuming a Deva can't kill Saulanna (possible, but i doubt it) they could, for instance, come up with ideas and plans the other devas find more attractive than what the queen comes up with. If the other Devas respect, admire, or look up to the other Deva more than Saulanna (or if Saulanna decides the other Deva is doing a better job) power could shift.

...That was very confused and rambling @_@
>>
No. 63420 ID: bf54a8

supposedly this is how the ebon dragon turned into the dragon's shadow, he cannibalized himself changing his identity.
>>
No. 63425 ID: 9b155d

Wordblood is our Dedicated Social Combat Deva guys. Stop trying to double up and give us a Deva who threatens his role and might not be as loyal while having a skillset that would make usurping us much easier.
>>
No. 63426 ID: fb9917

>>63425
No, he is our dedicated Tail Deva. Because he is our tail.
>>
No. 63432 ID: 38cd76

>>63425
That's only a problem if the Deva we make is another Lord. We can easily make Noble Souls too, which do not seem capable of rising to queen status.
>>
No. 63436 ID: e3a7f8

Gotta admit, I'm new here but I am liking this Quest.

On the note of a Time feeding soul, while I do like Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon, I'd be worried about what would happen if the dragon in question was no longer....well, forgotten.

But if it did go with this name, it should definitely look like an Ouroboros. It would have the implications of devouring and remaking itself, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A deva focused on its own duties, on producing for us and minimizing expenditures or undoing actions, I like that. It's relatively safe, as long as we don't push the boundaries.

Also, artistically it's a nice, "Let's Get Dangerous" moment if the dragon ever uncurls, stops eating itself, and focuses on eating other things.
>>
No. 63444 ID: cee89f

>>63425
technically he's our dedicated personal aide who would happen to be really good at social combat

>>63432
May i direct your attention to:
>>58102
>"Oh, we're definitely very far from making any Nobles."

>>63436
Hooray! =D

>>63278
...So, nobody's interested in this idea, then? =(

Come ooooon, Masked Heroes! We could name 'em Zorros! ...Wait, scratch that idea, it's stupid. We could name our first Awesome-deva-exalted Mr.T! Or Chuck Norris!!
>>
No. 63446 ID: 77bbcb

I'm totally interested in eventually making our own exalted...but that seems like something much further down the road with many more Deva's under our belt.
>>
No. 63448 ID: 38cd76

You know, I was just rereading the old thread and I realized something.

Saulana's basic personality is supposed to be agressive. That means that she's going to have the most confidence, the most success, when she's taking aggressive strategies.

If you recall, that's what eventually ended up working in her encounter with the other Lunars.

I think it's something we need to keep in mind as we continue to ponder her development.
>>
No. 63450 ID: cee89f

>>63446
I know, but i'd like to have fun discussions about it in the meantime =(

For example: caste names (far as i can tell) tend to have a running theme. The Lunar castes, for instance, are named after moon phases. Solar casts are named after times of day (Dawn, Twilight, Zenith, etc) and the Abyssals are basically whatever their corresponding Solar caste is, in reverse. Soooo... Caste names/theme, anyone?

Alternatively we could do what Gaia did and just name the different castes/styles after different elements. Like the Blood/Word Caste or the Time/Legacy Caste.

>>63448
...

...That's... actually a very good point =/ I assumed (and I think the rest of us did, too) that Garmir and our own Hero's soul were causing our anxiety. And it at least partially was (Garmir admitted it outright - douchebag) but it might have been contributed to by Saulanna's passive manner of handling the situation for the most part.
>>
No. 63453 ID: e3a7f8

Yo, I'm the one who posted the Ouroboros idea for a Time Feeding soul a few posts up, I just decided to start using one of my more common screen names around here.

While voting seems like a moot point since Time is the overwhelming favorite, I just felt like making a note that I'm not sure Growth is the safest choice at this moment in time for a Feeding soul.

Oh, it'd be fantastic for getting us more power. That's a good thing. I think the problem is that it will ALWAYS be trying to get stronger. Self-improvement is good. But we can get easy self-improvement via soul-nomming and quite a few morally grey acts. If our Growth Lord Soul feels we are stifling it's growth and development, we'll have that much of a harder time keeping it under control.

We're stronger than our feeding soul, and have Wordblood as back-up, but we'd have to make absolutely sure that it never became strong enough to challenge us, or allied with enough other Lord souls. I really like the concept, but I'm not sure we're strong enough to use it to its full potential.

I still might vote for it because it beats the pants out of a lot of other options, but it's risky. Saving the element for a Noble Soul will probably suffice, even if it pays off more. Maybe even Saulanna's personal Noble Soul, to make sure she remains dominant. But that might just push us off the slippery slope.

Dangerous element, this one.
>>
No. 63454 ID: e3a7f8

Drat, I really need to figure out editing here....

But I do like the idea of an 'Awesome' Feeding Soul. I just don't think it's quite the right word.

Perhaps 'Glory'? That seems more appropriate. As we perform more glorious, awe-inspiring works, we get stronger. A bit like receiving prayer, it's adoration for being sufficient awesome.
>>
No. 63455 ID: 21865d

>>63454

Glory would probably fit better yes...but Glory would sit quite firmly under the banner of the Unconquered Sun...He's not one we want all up in our business right now.

>>63450

Well I think that Saulanna currently lacks enough definition to provide caste themes...though I imagine you could make a bid for some type of raccoon theme. Or perhaps a theme focusing on the synergy between mortal Hero soul and Immortal Primordial soul? Like on the duality of the nature?

What were your ideas?
>>
No. 63456 ID: 9b155d

>>63450
>But we can get easy self-improvement via soul-nomming and quite a few morally grey acts.

I hadn't thought that a Growth Feeding Soul might push harder for that... That's quite the bonus! Almost wish it had been realized sooner so I could've pushed harder for it.
>>
No. 63458 ID: 67e8b2

I'm surprised I didn't see the Elements of Harmony in the vote.

I think they all fit.
>>
No. 63464 ID: cee89f

>>63458
Oh, we saw several of them. Just not explicitly listed as the element of harmony

>>63454
Can't edit. Copy+paste your post back up top and delete the original... actually, copy paste into a notepad document and delete the original first, THEN repost.

>>63455
Didn't have any. My idea was to do what the Dragon-blooded did - come up with five powers only tangentially related to each other, give them a feature that marks them as one of us (say, a black mask) and name the different powers and abilities based on the Deva they come from. For instance:

Blood Caste/Aspect: Diplomats, negotiators. They have the power to instantly comprehend any language (something we were able to do at soul force one, which I believe we were told was weak even for a magical creature) and

Legacy/Clock caste: Warriors and masters of progression. To them, space is warped and time is bendable. They can slow down or speed up Time, turning weeks-long trips into days, shifting and flowing around blows even other exalted would find too quick to dodge.

But since of those have a wide, overarching theme to the specific powers as of yet (the Dragon-blooded are tied into the fabric of life and existence, for example) I thought someone else would come up with something that was better than my idea =p

>>63453
Indeed.
>>
No. 63465 ID: 70c0f2

>Can't edit. Copy+paste your post back up top and delete the original... actually, copy paste into a notepad document and delete the original first, THEN repost.
Even better, get an addon for your browser that saves form text. Lazarus is a godsend if you find yourself having to frequently correct mistakes.
>>
No. 63469 ID: 21865d

>>63464

I see. I could definitely see making the themes off of our Lords, assuming we only have a few, or once we get powerful enough to make Nobles or upgrade Lords to Nobles use those as Themes.

I definitely like the idea of all heroes of Saulanna having a black mask...The Masked Heroes...has a decent ring.

I also agree that Blood/Word Caste should happen, as Wordblood is a rather large part of Salanna's character, and I think he always will be. Assuming a Time Feeding Soul, your idea for Legacy Caste is interesting. If a Growth soul ever happens, we could use that as a theme...that cast would probably develop quicker and be good at bringing about growth and positive change in others.

Going off of the ideas currently out there for the Feeding soul, Desire would be, I imagine, similar to the Sidereals of Venus. Civilization and Culture would be able to integrate with, create, sustain, and manipulate those aspects of humanity. Knowledge/Truth would just know things, probably more sorcery based.

Those are just a few ideas.
>>
No. 63470 ID: 1752c2

Good point about Glory being firmly under the banner of the Unconquered Sun. We're really not ready to put our ball in his court.

In fact, depending on our objectives, Glory can very easily backfire on us. Glory is great in this setting. There are more chances to be awesome than even an Exalted can shake a stick at. We will get power and we'll get it fast.

But one thing to remember: you either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain.

If we align ourselves with Glory, Heroism, and the like, we make ourselves eminently suited for the current setting. We'll be The Good Guys. But suppose we have a Lord soul of Glory, what then? Will we be driven to perform glorious, awe inspiring, EVIL acts? Glory does not equal Good. And we do have an Aggressive personality. Something tells me we will not be content with the status quo for as long as we possess it.

If we ever do take a Glory aligned soul, I think I suggest we do it as a Noble soul. Perhaps under Heroism. That way we'll focus on achieving Glory through heroic acts. The only problem would be if we start getting overzealous....

Oh dear. I'm beginning to think that choosing active, aggressive souls will only doom us to eventual failure. At absolute best outcome there is that we are driven always towards positive things, like expanding Creation, doing overall net positive things. But it's so terribly likely that we'll jump off a slippery slope. We might be the Nice Guy of the moment, but how long before our former allies decide that we're becoming too dangerous?

Maybe our best option will be to hop in the Pleasure Doom and dope up. It may be the only way to keep us from meddling, if we become sufficiently powerful and motivated. Utopia is impossible if you desire change. And our personality and abilities dispose us towards changing the world around us. Could we really resist?

For the moment there is plenty to do. We are a weapon in a war. At the moment we do not need to be sheathed. But should we win, how long until will we be content?

And how likely is it that the gods and Incarnae will think of this as well? That while we may be useful in the moment, however good our intentions we will only become a new foe to vanquish?

We might want to find a way to take a page from Luna or Gaia's book, or perhaps the Ebon Dragon, and make sure we have a way to reinvent ourself, should a time come when our current personality and abilities are more harmful than good.

Unless we WANT to try and take over Creation....
>>
No. 63471 ID: 21865d

>>63470

I see the setting as having that as a theme. Incredibly well-meaning people doing horrible horrible things because they've gotten too bored/powerful/dedicated to the pursuit of positive change. But I think for now, taking aggressive souls would only make things harder on us. I think we should focus on taking a passive soul or two to balance out our natural aggression before we start looking at those kinds of options.

And honestly, it would not go amiss to say that taking over Creation might be the best thing for it...think of all the shadow wars that would end...all the future wars that could be averted. The undisputed Queen of creation rules all and keeps the peace....what could possibly go wrong?
>>
No. 63472 ID: 1752c2

>>63471

Fair point as the setting having that theme. And I agree that we need some passive souls. Well, Wordblood is kind of passive, but he's also devoted to us so he's not holding us back too much.

I think Time could actually help us become more passive. Give us a wider perspective. Bonds could also work for that, but could make us too passive.

I think it's a good thing that we're choosing Time. Well, unless it turns out to be extremely aggressive and wants to rewrite Reality. Then we're going to have to work to keep it in line.

Seriously, if our Lord souls start rebelling and keep the Titan's Will they produce for themselves, to make themselves stronger, we could easily be looking at them taking us over. If they're not loyal to us or want to be in charge, we cannot rely on them happily handing over the power we made them to create.
>>
No. 63476 ID: cee89f

>>63471
Well first, the gods/goddesses of Plot, Comeuppance or Irony could hear that.

>>63472
Think we should ask Wordblood about that? Personally I think that the Time Lord Deva will be as loyal to us as he is, at least at first. We're basically forming him/her out of a part of ourselves, right?

>>63469
I wasn't sure of what else we could really use to give our heroes their powers. I mean, as far as I can tell, exaltations are deeply tied to their creators, to the degree that Death Hero powers radically altered the instant their masters changed from Oblivion to the Dragon. We don't have much that defines us, besides amnesia (which I don't want to give to people who want exaltation enough to get it) our Lunar powers are definitely Luna's domain. Dunno if Copyright is an issue amongst the gods, but I'd prefer not to find out =/ If you have another idea, I'm open to suggestions.

... Actually, that amnesia thing isn't too bad of an idea... or at least, it's an interesting one. Exaltation in our names would cause memory loss and for their Savvy to increase to a level not unlike our own. Before we exalt someone though, we have them leave a message for themselves, a la Amnesia the Dark Descent.

It gives the exaltation something unique (far as I know) and gives a new weight to the term 'Masked Heros...'

...

Then again I can't see any reason a generally good person would FORCE someone to forget anything they- OH! What if we exalted criminals who want to reform? We had our beginnings as a theif and was reborn as a titan! Assuming our healer soul is a deva of rebirth (like we talked a bit about earlier), we could even gain power from our own exalts being reborn as Masked Heroes!

Sounds awesome, right?!

... Anybody?

...No?

Just me?

... Fine. =p But I'd still like to ask Wordblood his feelings on gaining our own exalts at some point... though that'll be a LOOOOOOONG way down the line if it ever happens at all.
>>
No. 63479 ID: 1752c2

>>63476

I expect the Time Deva will start out loyal. Or at least neutral. It really depends on its priorities. Saulanna's priorities are ours. Wordblood's priorities mostly revolve around ours, or what he thinks is best for us, and himself. The Time Deva? What will it want? To explore its own capabilities? To feed, and feed often? Maximize efficiency? How willing to follow directions will it be?

I think it's more likely to be amenable to us than something like Growth or Will. Anytime Wordblood says hard to control or something to that effect, I assume he means it will put its own priorities above ours unless coerced otherwise. So we'll either have to accommodate it or subdue it.

Time wasn't mentioned as being hard to control, so I think we'll be okay on that front, at least from the start. We're the older ones, more experienced, and stronger. We can make a strong impression on what's essentially a new character.

Hopefully we can convince it that following us is best. We have the experience and loyalty of Wordblood. We will focus on everyone's survival. It will focus on producing energy and resources so that we may better secure said survival and develop our powers. Symbiosis. If we can make it WANT to follow our lead, and we prove capable, then hopefully that will secure its loyalty and obedience.

Besides, our initial Feeding Soul won't provide much to start with IIRC. It can't do TOO much for us. We'll still be pulling most of the wait, the Feeding Soul is just an investment. While it is still weak, we prove ourselves strong. We nurture it, let it know that if it continues to be a good Feeding Soul, it will become stronger for it.

Establish that mutual trust early on. When multiple sides don't trust each other, we waste resources because of that mistrust. If we can establish a strong rapport early on, and keep it, we will produce maximum gains. We provide evidence to sow that yes, this strategy works and it works best. If we can show how mistrust causes wasteful resources, and we just so happen to be in a situation where mistrust is gobbling our resources, then we solidify our point.

This is the strategy I'd use on a difficult soul like Growth or Will. Convince them that we know best, provide evidence that this is so, and assure them that in the long term this is best. With a soul not so uncooperative like Time seems like it will be, I hope it's super-effective.

And we have Wordblood on our side to help us make our point. I'm hoping we can make this sucker imprint on us right from birth, more than he may already be. Best of all, if this DOES work, then when we do make a willful soul like Growth or Will, we have ready evidence that our way works. Three Lord souls that are alive, developing, and hopefully thriving because of this mutual cooperation (dependent on Saulanna as head).

Oh yeah, and maybe give them the idea that Peregrin's oath may only hold so long as we are Queen. If anyone tries to overthrow us they'll just shoot themselves in the foot, and our allies will try to save us. Carrot and stick. Obey us and thrive, disobey and succeed or fail, they lose overall.

....My this was a fun thought exercise!
>>
No. 63480 ID: 70c0f2

Masked heros, and reformation of thieves seems a decent start into an exaltation theme. I really don't think Saulanna's own powerset and themes are developed enough to seriously consider things like castes, yet.

>deva loyalty
I don't think loyalty is so much important as position. Except in extreme circumstances, our Devas are going to want to stick together- not break off on their own, or try to kill us. The trick is just making it so we're the natural leader- that we don't allow ourself to become marginalized or subservient. It's a more subtle problem than outright revolt.
>>
No. 63481 ID: 63f851

I think everyone's worrying way too overmuch about the loyalty thing this early. If the time-thingy immediately starts making noise that it wants to eat us, then we can worry about it, but for now the potential problem is so far in the future it's way past the horizon. All we really need to do to avoid it is simply make our new souls harmonious with us and each other, and since they're supposed to work together anyways it won't be very difficult.

The "Create our own Exalted?" discussion I'd bet a dozen muffins will never amount to anything in the actual Quest. It's a fun discussion, but I think y'all might be going just a little stir-crazy in here.
>>
No. 63483 ID: 70c0f2

>The "Create our own Exalted?" discussion I'd bet a dozen muffins will never amount to anything in the actual Quest.
Theoretically, it could come up in a sequel, once we get Saulanna up to absurd power levels and playing as her directly becomes difficult. It's kind of analogous to what happened to Tom, once he officially ascended to godhood and we made Muo a chaos disciple.
>>
No. 63484 ID: 67e8b2

I just hope they are good natured. Saulanna and Wordblood could use someone more optimistic to cheer them up.
>>
No. 63492 ID: cee89f

>>63481
It's an entertaining topic while we wait for Jukashi to finish the next update. If you want the topic to change, come up with something else to talk about. -.-
Also, what s/he said.
>>63483
>>
No. 63494 ID: 1752c2

SON OF A BITCH!

Was rereading the second thread and noted Peregrin saying that the Dragon's Shadow is rumored to be able to control time in his new domain, possibly to the extent of undoing events. Titans manipulating time is apparently not uncommon, although Time Devas are.

If the Dragon's Shadow has a Time Deva, we may be stepping into deeper shit than I'd expected. And now that I think about it, which of the elemental dragons are missing again? Time and something else?

Because I am currently VERY worried that the Dragon's Shadow has somehow absorbed them and is using them for his purposes.

I can't even say that if this is true, we shouldn't make a Time Deva. This might be a way for us to resist this danger. It could be leverage on us, or an ace in the hole. Peregrin didn't mention anything about the Time Deva, even if Wordblood likes the idea.

....I'm really not sure whether to hope I'm right or wrong. I'm hoping this little theory of mine is bunk but if it's not....
>>
No. 63495 ID: 21865d

>>63476

I love this idea of Amnesia stricken heroes looking for a rebirth...a lot.

>>63479

I, like a few others, believe that given the incredibly young age of this soon to be new-born soul, coupled with the fact that we are crafting it from a piece of ourselves will make it exceptionally loyal to the cause, as it were. Showing it that the loyalty isn't misplaced is probably a good idea, but I don't think we have to worry about it conspiring against us.
>>
No. 63496 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/471198

Game over. 10/10 would play again.

So on the topic of other topics we could discuss: What ways could Saulanna's Lunar exaltation mix with her implanted Titan-ness and Wordblood? What can we do with Peregrin's shadowland in the short, long, and super-long term? Should we look into learning sorcery? Who and what can we eat, and which would be most tasty? Raccoons or Raccoons?

...How do we, eventually, increase Saulanna's AROUSAL levels enough to input sexual commands?
>>
No. 63500 ID: cee89f

>1: Raccoons
>2: Fuck You
>3: Raccoons

Classy.

>>63494
....
Okay. First.

That was because he destroyed the Underworld's calendar and - from the sound of it - made the Underworld a part of his world-body. Even if you discount the latter as baseless guessing on my part, the former isn't going to be something that regularly occurs.

Secondly, even if that WERE something Titans did on a regular basis (i sincerely doubt it) this is the only instance we know of where a titan without a Time deva did something with Time.

We are fine. Stop panicking.
>>
No. 63502 ID: 38cd76

A freedom deva also strikes me as very fitting. I'm not sure what it's purpose would be, but it would be very fitting. Especially if you consider her history, both pre and post exaltation. And then if you consider that she's a moon exalted too, it works all the same. Freedom has great connotations, and could have some really interesting related abilities.
>>
No. 63504 ID: 70c0f2

>>63502
Except freedom is worrying close to the Dragon's Shadow's theme of rebellion. Which either makes us subject to his influence, or in competition with him. I don't think either of those is anything we want anytime soon.
>>
No. 63505 ID: e3a7f8

>>63500

Destroying the calendar, I admit I forgot. But apparently Titans do manipulate time regularly.

>Many Titans can influence the passage of time, my lady, but only a few Titans have had lordly Time souls.

So yeah, apparently Titans have some influence on time, and a few have lordly time souls. Peregrine mentioned that the Dragon's Shadow is rumored to be able to undo events.

>"Ah, that's our friend the Dragon again. He destroyed the Calander that moved the days of the dead, so now time flows according to his will. An hour in a day here, a decade in a month there. Some say he can even undo events that have already happened, though there's no evidence beyond vague rumour.

I hope that is just rumor. But if it's not, and he's using a Time soul to save scum events within his domain, this could be trouble.

Maybe he does have one, maybe he doesn't. It's certainly a card that makes sense to keep close to his chest. And I seriously do hope that he didn't nom on Gaia's missing dragons.



Although concerning extra themes....how about Reincarnation? In a way, we reincarnate ourselves. The slate was wiped clean, we were given a new chance and a new life. Reincarnation could be a good theme for us, and a way to regulate ourselves. Reinvention would be similar of a smaller basis, but has less wide reaching connotations.

And hey, if we get strong enough in that area, maybe we can apply that to Exalted and Exalted shards, getting them away from the Titans/Dragon's Shadow. They wouldn't be the same person afterwards, no....but maybe they don't want that. Maybe they want a second chance instead. It ties in better with Luna too.
>>
No. 63506 ID: cee89f

>>63505
We discussed rebirth, though Wordblood thought it would work best as a healing soul or something.
>>
No. 63507 ID: e3a7f8

>>63506

Which I don't....hmm. Okay, maybe I do disagree slightly, because if we can get extra Titan's Will by reincarnating spirits, it might be worthwhile. If we can find a way to send spirits to us when they die, it could work. Maybe. I suspect it wouldn't go so smoothly. If it gives us a moral pass for nomming souls though, because we are doing a 'good' process to them and we get bonuses for it, that's not too bad. We'd just need to find a way to get a steady influx of souls. If we can reincarnate all the ghosts trapped here we may get A. Power, B. Possibly derail the Dragon a bit, and C. Potentially bring down more heat than we're ready for.

Well, something to think about.

But I don't disagree with saving it for a Healing Soul. Though I think rebirth and reincarnation are slightly different. Only slightly, but it may be worth considering at a later date. Still good with Time as our Feeding Soul.
>>
No. 63508 ID: 3dd855

>>63507
>get extra Titan's Will by reincarnating spirits
You make no sense. We get Titan's Will by deconstructing the spirits. Where do we get the Titan's Will, if we are letting the spirits pass by? The bonus for Element-aligned generation is slight, so that shouldn't make an appreciable difference.

>let's break lethe
no. stop. why are you breaking a functional process and replacing it with a more-fallible system?

also, ghosts are ghosts because want to be. if they didn't want to be ghosts, then they can just let go and pass on to lethe. why are you violating their desires.

that's not moral.

...the entire idea is not moral.
>>
No. 63509 ID: e3a7f8

>>63508

Actually, I was under the impression that a lot of souls around here at the moment can't reincarnate at all. For them it's not a matter of choosing to remain a ghost, they're stuck there whether they like it or not. At least as far as places with the Dragon's Shadow is concerned. If they can't move on, the developing a way to let them move on would be a good thing. Or, well, it's really more putting them out of their misery. Their time is up, letting them hang around just gives the Dragon's Shadow more people in his realm. Considering he has a high level soul associated with Death, I get the impression that keeping souls from reincarnating properly is part of his plan....

Plus, limited amount of soul in the world. If people keep sticking around as ghosts in the Dragon's Shadow's domain, then those are souls that aren't being fed back into the system. If everyone refuses to pass on and we let them, then we start running out of souls.

I'm less about breaking the current reincarnation system. It DOES work. But I also was under the impression that the reincarnation system exists because the Titans didn't feel like doing all the reincarnating themselves. So we can perform the same function, get bonuses for it, do it more efficiently....

Yeah, it sucks that they have to pass on. I think the idea is horrifying, to be obliterated like that. I'd never volunteer for it. But fuck, that's reincarnation for you. We can't let everyone hang around until they're ready to go.
>>
No. 63519 ID: 38cd76

>>63504
Freedom and rebellion are not the same thing at all. I had written up a post compare and contrast, but I lost it somewhere. I'll just say... rebellion is the opposition to authority. That is the concept. Freedom is more... liberty. The Power to Choose for Oneself. It's more in line with Luna, than with the Dragon's Shadow.

>>63508
From what I understand, you're both right. We ARE just absorbing the souls, but we are also letting them pass through. It's the same function as what would happen naturally, only we're getting the energy from it instead of something random, before it then goes and does something else.

At least, that's the impression I got.
>>
No. 63520 ID: 21865d

>>63519

The way I understood Exalted's setting is that all the experiences of a soul are shucked off in the cycle, before rebirth (except in the case of some heroic souls). Our eating of souls is allowing them to pass into the cycle naturally, we are just putting the experience to use by pulling it away before they rejoin the cycle. It's like making the soul new before it reaches the 'pool-o'-souls'.
>>
No. 63521 ID: e3a7f8

>>63520

Yeah, that's about what I thought. Unless we decide to keep the soul-stuff for ourselves.

Of course, with a soul aligned with Reincarnation/Rebirth, and a Feeding Soul at that, we could almost certainly get Titan's Will from reincarnating single souls, or enough souls. If Wordblood can get Titan's Will from consuming the written word, I see no reason why we can't get it by performing with Reincarnation with the right Deva.

Of course, we're clearly gonna get Time at this point, but still. If we get efficient enough at reincarnation/stripping memories from souls before sending them on their way, and a Reincarnation/Rebirth soul, we could get serious skills and power.
>>
No. 63522 ID: 21865d

>>63521

Your point about Wordblood reminded me that we can't forget why we originally wanted to go into the library. We will eventually have to go back so we can have him absorb the information from the books.
>>
No. 63523 ID: cd4189

>>63522
While we're talking about things we can't forget, let's not forget the Music Box quest line. It's less immediately pressing, but still worth investigating.

But yes, we need to read the stuff in there. At some point at least. With Peregrin's permission, because I don't think we'll be getting more than a single measure of Titan's Will, while we will definitely deprive our minion of his library.

...Okay, I think I remember why we decided not to om nom nom the library. Too little gain, and we kind of screw over Peregrin. We can't even replace the books we consume.
>>
No. 63524 ID: 21865d

>>63523

I think we had decided not to eat the books, just scan them for information. Didn't Wordblood say something about being able to absorb the knowledge from books without destroying them?
>>
No. 63527 ID: 70c0f2

>>63519
You're overlooking the fact that one of the Dragon's Shadow's Deva's explicitly has freedom as it's element.

>>59000
>The Dragon's Shadow: Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change, Death, ???

It's also interesting to note that in quest, Saulanna decided the best description for him was a a sort of Titan of rebellion- but none of his Devas actually have that as their element. Theme does not necessarily equal element. Although it's not hard to make the case how those could all be seen as related to rebellion.

>Didn't Wordblood say something about being able to absorb the knowledge from books without destroying them?
Yes. He said it would be like having your cake and eating it too. Doesn't work.

We can read books, or we can absorb them. Or we can have scribes make us copies of books for us to absorb (Kaan suggested that). That's the closest we can get to having it both ways.
>>
No. 63528 ID: bf54a8

what about just narrowing it down? feel the pulse of information to just know that the information we are thinking about is on this shelf?
>>
No. 63529 ID: cee89f

>>63520
... what on EARTH gave you that idea? Wordblood made it very clear that the soul was NOT going back into the reincarnation cycle.

>>63524
That it couldn't be done and the idea was ridiculous-sounding?

>>63523
Peregrin stipulated he would try and find any duplicates we could absorb.

>>63528
eh... maybe. We'd probably need to give wordblood an ability for it, but we should at least ask if it can be done.
>>
No. 63530 ID: f2c20c

>>63520
Reincarnation does work like that- there is absolutely nothing carried over between lives unless it's a Heroic Soul. Essentially whenever a mortal soul is reused it reverts to a default state. All newly reincarnated souls are the same. It's like wiping down a chalkboard.

However, when we eat a soul, we eat what's written on the chalkboard AND we eat the chalkboard too. That soul is not reincarnated, though honestly the only moral issue with that is that there are then less souls in circulation. Eventually, we can make new "chalkboards" via passive generation and give back what we "borrowed". The simple act of eating souls is like taking a loan from the reincarnation process. It's not evil.

Now, there IS a moral issue involved here- in order to eat a soul we have to kill the ghost using the soul. We killed those guards and that mob boss, and that's still not a nice thing to do even if we felt it was necessary. We should not be arguing about whether eating souls is evil, we should be arguing about whether killing ghosts is evil.
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No. 63536 ID: c735d3

>>63530
> That soul is not reincarnated, though honestly the only moral issue with that is that there are then less souls in circulation.

That's not a problem. Creation has mechanisms to create new souls. It has to. Otherwise the Titans would have to manually create new souls every time the population grew beyond a set limit. That would be tedious. The Titans created the gods and such to avoid micromanaging the affairs of creation; therefore they made the Well of Souls. It's briefly described in the Ink Monkey article discussing the cycle of reincarnation of Autocthonia and how it differs from Creation.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Ink_Monkeys,_vol._4:_Soulgems_and_Thaumaturgy

Of course Lunar Quest may differ from the cannon. We'll see.

Incidentally, due to the radically different way reincarnation works in Autocthonia, I would consider it wrong to eat any Autocthonian soul. Although, it's not like Saulanna knows any of that in character though.
>>
No. 63537 ID: fb9917

>>63530
Kill and eat all the ghosts. Except the nice ones.
>>
No. 63538 ID: 38cd76

>>63537
Hoo-ray!
>>63527
I stand corrected. I do think it would be a good deva though. I find it intriguing that He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word had Beauty as a deva before. Will we naturally get that back if we find any more pieces of him, or would he make that one of his noble souls?
>>63536
I find this informative. Thanks!

It's gotten to the point where I check two or three times a day just to make sure that the update hasn't come yet. Do I have a problem?


I am reminded also, as long as we're bringing up old plot threads, of the other Pieces of He Who Bleeds that we were told about. I really think it would be a great way to go about expanding our power base, if we could actually go and look for some of those.
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No. 63543 ID: cee89f

>>63538
The problem is that you're not checking to see that it HASN'T updated! Have some faith/hope, my friend! We WILL see this update again! Soon...

...Must not... give up...

...

*munches on some popcorn*
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No. 63557 ID: cd4189

Hmmm.....on the topic of Growth, Wordblood mentioned that it sits on a grey area of Purpose and Element.

Perhaps instead of using Growth as an element, we should assign it as a Purpose? That way we can choose an Element that we would like to develop, and focus on Growth, well, growing it as quickly and effectively as possible.

Growth was suggested to us over Evolution or Self-Perfection. Supposing we could assign Growth as a Purpose, could that help remove the limitations of Evolution? It could have us focus on growing stronger, but also on reinventing ourselves if need be. Or perhaps this would carry over to the Noble Souls? We could cultivate Luna-aligned traits with this combination.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Other Elements that could be assigned to a Growth purpose? Errors in logic I made? I'm musing at this point but would like to muse with other people on this subjects, lacking an update to focus on.
>>
No. 63558 ID: cee89f

>>63557
...

Is there any reason we can't do both? Make the Growth soul also be have the Growth element? Like if Wordblood had been made a Communicator deva instead of an Aide (no offense to wordblood - i'm just trying to see if this would work)

I mean, it definitely sounds like something that we shouldn't do in this case (it could easily become too difficult to control) but i mostly want to know if a deva's purpose and element can be the same thing.
>>
No. 63559 ID: fb9917

>>63557
We should probably think really hard before making a bunch of Lordly souls that will impact our entire way of thinking. We don't want to end up being a Titan representing something really stupid. The feeding soul is necessary, but other souls really need a lot of thought on how they will change us. Growth might be a good purpose, but I think we would want to be really careful about the Element of the soul. And then we have to think about subsouls too.
>>
No. 63560 ID: cd4189

>>63558

Oh for the love of us, no, not now. We're committed to a Feeding Soul. A soul with the Purpose of Growth will still have the drawbacks of being difficult to control.

A Growth Element and Growth purposes....could be interesting. Definitely. It could be really good at making us want to get stronger, and successfully. Other people too. If we can't have that, a Will Element with a Purpose of Growth could also work. But that would be crazy hard to control I suspect.
>>
No. 63582 ID: 38cd76

I was thinking, maybe we could do something like Peace for a social soul, and Strength for like... a battle soul or something.

I'm liking a lot of yin and yang concepts. I like peace. We should have a peace soul. But we also would need a war soul of some sort to balance it out.

Balance! Yeah, or something.

How about a Growth soul with the element of war, and then a Healing Soul with the element of Peace or something like that?

That'd work pretty well, I think.
>>
No. 63589 ID: cee89f

>>63560
I meant LATER, man -.- when we actually MAKE a growth deva

>>63582
...

Growth deva with the element of war. When we're trying to establish ourselves as a force for good in the world.

...

You don't see a problem with that?

An immediate, obvious, GLARING problem with that?*

I mean, I like the whole ying-yang idea you're going for (though it seems like a recipe for a very chaotic world-body) but trying to immediately go for the war/peace route seems to be hurting the idea =/

*The problem is that the deva will want to wage war - a lot and often - to grow in power.
>>
No. 63592 ID: 38cd76

>>63589
It worked for the Scarlet Empress.
>>
No. 63598 ID: f481bc

Actually, our Aggressive temperament WOULD favor us making War in order to grow stronger. If we take that route, we're probably going to end up favoring War over other things, just because we already have a foot in the door by being Aggressive.

The whole yin-yang thing is nice, but unless we find a way to establish a balance between the two, we're gonna give ourselves some major headaches by having two relatively contradictory instincts. At best we focus on growing stronger in strife, and heal/grow stronger in peace time. But I suspect that the Growth Deva will be much more aggressive and influential in our personality.

Kind of a shame we can't go the Martial Pacifist route at the moment. Again, our temperament is not inclined in that direction. It's the 'path' I myself would prefer if we end up focused on War. When we fight, we pull out all the stops in the name of ending the conflict as quickly and efficiently as possible, and focus on peacetime endeavors when not in conflict.
>>
No. 63599 ID: cee89f

I had a thought. Can we ask Wordblood how a titan establishes a theme for itself? Like... He who Bleeds was a dragon who could do things like drip venomous slander from his fangs. Presumably, that form was the 'king' and had those powers because of his devas.

...that's kinda confusing, lemme rephrase. How does the Queen/King gain physical features related to their devas, such as the aforementioned venomous slander? Is it passive, like several of our deva abilities? Would they become more pronounced as Saulanna's power grows, or as our devas do?

>>63592
The Scarlet Empress ruled an empire of snide fate-wielders and eugenicists in a global campaign to wipe out the embodiments of good and virtue in the world.

Yeah. The Solars were worse and NEEDED to be brought down. But don't pretend it was a GOOD thing =p

>>63598
...I still don't like War for a Growth deva, or even a War deva in general. It seems like something that would wage war just for the sake of it.

If we really want to though, couldn't we give the element to a deva with a purpose that gives it good reason to maintain self-control? Like a a Defense purpose with a war element?
>>
No. 63600 ID: f481bc

>>63599

Ooh, Defense Purpose with War Element is pretty clever. That said, it doesn't match our Aggressive temperament very well. That's still a good idea and template to keep in mind.
>>
No. 63602 ID: 70c0f2

>>63600
Defense through war is aggressive. It's basically the whole philosophy behind a kind of Pax Romana. The best defense is a good offense.

That said, I think we're kind of thinking about new Devas in the wrong way here. We have two considerations:

Theme. What kind of Titan will we be? Words/Communication and Time already have several different relationships between them, and we could swing that to establish a few different themes depending on how we act going forward. How will a chosen Deva effect that balance?

Need. We made a feeder Deva because we desperately needed a way to produce energy, and manage the energies we already have (that's strategy games 101 logic). We made it a time element because it was the most interesting choice, and the one most strong endorsed by our current adviser. So what do we need next? Logically, our next biggest problem, after energy, is the competing forces in the world we have to deal with (Luna, the Lunars, Dragon's Shadow, people we've yet to meet, etc.). Logically, we need a Deva who can help us with them. I see a few approaches to this: (1) We could opt to find some way to hide or conceal ourself from them. (2) We find some way to manipulate, subvert, recruit or ally with these factions. (3) We make ourselves ready to fight. (In simplest terms, hide, talk, or fight). We should pick a course of action- and then a purpose that supports it. Then we seek an element that interacts thematically with what we already have, and that has interesting applications and/or implications for that purpose.

So let's start there. How do we want to approach the other powers in this world?
>>
No. 63605 ID: fb9917

>>63602
I kind of prefer the idea of hiding what we are over making an alliance with any of the groups we've met so far. Individual Exalts are one thing, but once they start forming groups they are just not the most trustworthy. I don't know anything about the Red Sun Heroes, though, those guys might be okay? Or they might be HORRIBLE, who knows. Infernal fluff is so stupid it shouldn't exist, but mechanically they are probably the most likely type of Exalt to be sane. The Great Curse doesn't affect them and the Urge is basically the least effective tool for making an Exalt do anything ever. But we definitely don't want anything to do with a LOYAL Infernal. As for Primordials and Gods most of them we should probably stay well away from, although Autobot might be helpful. He might also be asleep and dying though. And his Exalts would probably want to murder us.

So I'm thinking Stealth soul to hide us from other Titans! Any thoughts?
>>
No. 63606 ID: cee89f

>>63600
I was thinking such a Deva would be very aggressive, but only in a defensive context - ie, if it saw a need for an attack, it would take the opportunity, but would not try to CREATE such an opportunity.

>>63602
It was generally agreed we should try and be a good person, and convince Luna, Sol and others that we would be a force for good in the world. However, this is a very, VERY dangerous world, so we're also going to need to know how to fight, and Saulanna's got an agressive temperament...

...Then again.

Saulanna is the Queen of the titan world-body, but she's already aggressive. We don't need another agressive Deva just for the sake of an agressive deva - Saulanna IS an agressive Deva... sort of. Even if we eventually need a deva for offense, we're already a Moon Hero. We're already FRACKING BADASS. We can afford to leave an offense soul for later.

I'd say what we would need would be a way to heal, or bring up a strong defense for when we're NOT on the attack. So a Healing or Defense Deva.

>>63605
Stealth doesn't seem like it would fit very well with Saulanna's personality. She's a very aggressive individual, and I'm starting to become convinced that a lot of our failures in this chapter came from our attempts to be passive and/or reasonable. Our fight with Akatrina was appallingly one-sided, and we couldn't lie to Garmir or Askalaff in a way that did anything other than convince them 'okay shes not under mind control'.
>>
No. 63608 ID: fb9917

>>63606
I'm not sure how having a Stealth focused soul implies we have to be passive. I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero. We can go fight whoever, I just don't think we should tell the Incarna about our newfound status as one of those guys they created Exalts to kill!
>>
No. 63609 ID: 8a4f0f

I'm beginning to be getting to be convinced that we don't need a dedicated social or defense or anything like that yet, but what we need is maybe tools. For instance, seeing seeing deva of truth like Wordblood mentioned earlier. This would both help is see truth, and conceivably, affect the truth we let others see. An alternative would be knowledge, but wordy called dibs.
>>
No. 63610 ID: b978d0

Well, I've been following things from the shadows long enough. Time to add my own voice to the cacophony.

With the way that the current discussion is going it seems as if focus has shifted almost entirely to the creation of Deva. Improving Wordblood is showing up as a tangential line of thought at best.
It also seems that Saulanna's primary soul is being almost completely disregarded as a result of the shift of focus to the newly available mechanic.

While Saulanna, Wordblood, and any other sub-souls are all part of one whole, they are also individuals unto themselves. As such, I think that the different component parts of Saulanna (the titan) need to be regarded more as a collection of interdependent individuals. Currently they seem to be treated more like meta-game mechanics instead, which just won't work in the long run.

Saulanna (the individual) is the one that should be fulfilling the role of several of the core elements that have been discussed. Growth and Will in particular being things that should be left to the Queen to rule on, as befits the role of a leader. Once she has been given a chance to develop herself, and only then, should creation of assistants for these elements be considered. She isn't so busy with managing her development as a titan to need such assistance yet.

When it comes to Wordblood, I think Saulanna was very fortunate to have such a loyal and knowledgeable advisor. He is already a very good counterpoint to her instinctive lunar nature, and even in his weakened state has demonstrated a wealth of knowledge. I would suggest developing him further over creation of a social deva of some sort. Words = communication = social behaviour after all.

As for the feeder Deva, I'd say Time is currently the best option that has been discussed. It will likely play nicely with others, so long as it's not disrupted too much. The inexorable advancing of time and all that. This could also have good defensive and offensive applications as well, as nothing is harder to stop than time. Not likely to be as bursty as other potential elements, but extremely powerful none the less.

Considering the fragmented composition of a titan, I also think that Saulanna (the individual) should be given every opportunity to develop into the kind of Queen soul that leads by example rather than being overtly dependant on her nobles. This should help to develop a sense of mutual self-respect that will allow her to develop into an inherently stronger titan. It will be especially important when she eventually reaches the stage where she will be looking to grant her subject souls the added freedom of their own physical forms. The Queen needs to be able to trust her subjects just as much as they need to be able to trust her.

Overall, Saulanna may be young and Wordblood a mere fragment of what he once was, but both have great potential that needs to be given more thought after we're finished with the creation of the feeder soul. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that.
>>
No. 63612 ID: f481bc

A point on Saulanna already having an aggressive temperament. We don't need another aggressive Lord Deva.

In fact, you know what we could really use? A TRICKSY Deva. Wordblood is fairly passive, Saulanna is meant to be aggressive, so let's get a Deva in here that focuses on lateral thinking.

If we're absurdly lucky, our new Time Deva is going to be tricksy. Passive seems more likely though.

>>63602

I concede this point. This could be acceptable.

>>63608

This is true. A soul focused on stealth could just mean that we want to be unnoticed. But not left alone. We want to use that lack of notice towards, say, killing someone, acquiring information, et cetera. As long as we find a way to actively take advantage of our Stealth, we can be considered aggressive. We're seizing the day.

>>63609

Another good point. A Seeing Soul should really be next on our things to do, when we're ready for another soul. We could use more knowledge of the world. Truth is a good one. Perhaps Fate as well? Seeing Fate, what is SUPPOSED to happen, could give us considerable insight. It won't be much good against fellow Titans, but it could give us a measure of Foresight.

Deception could also be a very good one, and one prone to Tricksy, lateral thinking. And hell, people lie all the time. If we can detect the Truth through the lack of deception, that's just about as good as seeing it to begin with. And we get insight into why other people are deceiving us.

Yes, I think a Seeing soul of the element Deception could be quite useful. As long as it plays nice with Word Blood. Then again, Deception could also be useful in a social combat setting.

A Healing or Defense soul is also quite acceptable. Both are useful. It all depends on how confrontational we want to be. Our Aggressive personality is naturally disposed towards this. BUT! We do not have to always be straightforward in our aggression.

We get a Seeing soul. We, say, know that a threat is coming. We decide to run. We avoid the confrontation. It's not that we passively do nothing, we actively use our knowledge to seek more favorable ground. It's a bit on the Tricksy side, but hell, we should be encouraging our Tricky side.

Near as I can tell, we cannot go head to head with the most powerful people in this world and expect any degree of success. A straightforward confrontation will not often favor us. So we should rig the deck, make sure that circumstances are in our favor. We'll be aggressive, oh yes, but we'll make sure it's on OUR terms and no one else's.

How's that sound?

>>63610

....And this is also a very good point. Saulanna and Wordblood DO need more development. We need to make Saulanna a strong leader. You are entirely correct in this.

That said, I think we still need to consider future Deva. Saulanna and Wordblood are exceptionally powerful, very capable, but the one thing they cannot do is give us new information. Information must be gathered. In that respect, a Seeing Soul may remain high on our to-do list. If it helps us get vital intel that we are lacking, and oh are we ignorant of many, many things, we might want that Seeing Soul sooner rather than later.

For now, if we can stay safe here we might be able to accumulate enough power to satisfy everyone. It's not in line with the Aggressive temperament, but hopefully our Time Soul smooths things over.

But yeah, I'm feeling pretty vulnerable with our current lack of knowledge of incoming threats/allies. People took interest in us pretty quickly. We can't expect them to let us stay put. So we might need to get on the move, and for that, we need knowledge. A Seeing Soul can potentially let us stay ahead of the curve.

Saulanna and Wordblood are important, absolutely. But we do need more capabilities to either combat or avoid future threats. I don't think what we have alone will be quite enough. Not unless we get buttloads more Titan's Will to boost ourselves.
>>
No. 63613 ID: 70c0f2

Something along the lines of seeing / truth could have many interesting applications. There's also thematic connections to time and words. Rebirth / healing or something similar also has broad-ish scope. Themes better with Time than Words, and in a different direction, but could still work (yes, I just verbed theme).

Worth noting- just because those aren't combat specific, doesn't mean they can't be used in combat! Sight and truth is very useful in battle, especially when paired with time (prescience). And healing typical either involves some kind of manipulation of biology, or life force (depending on setting) which need not necessarily be done in a nice way. Or rebirth + time could lead to us aging opponents into younger or weaker versions of themselves (...potentially un-Exaulting people? o_o).

The tricky bit is I'm not sure what applications of these elements would necessarily be anathema to these Devas (the way it hurt Wordblood to stop Saulanna from understanding Kaan's mind control attempt). A healing deva, for instance, might not be able to do the evil white mage thing.

As you mention Deception as a possible element, I am compelled to remind you that is confirmed deva for the Dragon's Shadow. Choosing that in an attempt to hide ourselves from other titans will probably be counterproductive.
>>
No. 63614 ID: d785c7

>>63610
You've convinced me. You are correct that we need to spend time developing wordy and saulana. Some of our problems should solve themselves that way. I othink a seeing soul is still a good idea though. Defense and stealth and social we can manage ourselves, but a seeing soul would make things easier. What's more, would help us collect Titan fragments and amass power and abilities.

Truth might be good. Fate... Would likely help us find peices, plus our timesoul might want it for a noble.
>>
No. 63615 ID: f481bc

>>63613

....Ahh crap. You're right on Deception. It's a damn good Element I think, but treading on the Dragon's Shadow's toes is probably pretty unwise. At least we can appeal to nearly anyone else's better nature. We don't have that option with the Dragon's Shadow, methinks.

Also, yes, I agree that things not directly related to combat are not necessarily useless in combat. You've thrown out some good examples. I'm just thinking that when we get right down to it, we can't take most of the people who actually matter in combat if they find us. So perhaps we should focus on being able to choose our battles, or at least how they're fought, instead of a direct confrontation.

As for overall theme, I kind of favor a samara-ish approach. The world tends towards certain patterns. People change, evolve, all that sort of stuff. We as well. Whether in approach, lifestyle, culture and knowledge, one way or another, we change.

Let's focus on directing that change, personifying it. It could play into our Luna nature, that element of adaptability. Either overcome challenges, or roll with the punches. Turn weakness into strength.

We'd have to temper our Aggressive nature, just a bit, but we focus on seeing the big picture, and altering ourselves as necessary to achieve our goals.
>>
No. 63616 ID: d785c7

>>63615
A truth seeing soul should also help our objectivity.

I think I meant to say fate Wouldn't help us find pieces earlier.
>>
No. 63621 ID: cd4189

>>63616

I suspect that the only way a Seeing Soul will find pieces of Titans easier is if we design it to. Like, a soul whose purpose is finding. Or a Seeing soul meant to find the lost. Maybe Fate if Fate shenanigans have left a piece of a Titan in a particular place. MAYBE.

If our goal is finding pieces of Titans, I suspect we'll be disappointed for a while. Even if we know where they are, claiming and subduing them will likely be difficult.
>>
No. 63624 ID: b978d0

>>63614
I agree that a seeing soul should be top of the list for when we're ready to look at creating another Deva, and Truth would be an attractive element for that. Note that it may not be able to reliably reveal deception via half-truths and exemptions though.

When we're ready to consider creating another soul will depend greatly on how badly the process hurts though, as we've been warned by Wordblood with regards to that. I get the impression that it's the spiritual equivalent of ripping off your arm and granting it autonomous function. While that may be a ho-hum experience for a machine, it doesn't sound like something I'd want to repeat in rapid succession even if the benefits are clear and my survival was guaranteed.
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No. 63626 ID: a5f560

>>63621
I disagree. A truth soul, for instance, would have an intrinsic nature of seeing truth. This seemingly includes revealling things that would otherwise be hidden.

Also, I don't know how much subduing we'd have to do. Wordblood didn't precisely put up a fight.

I'd hate to see what would've happened to pick up another piece of him before us though.
>>
No. 63629 ID: 70c0f2

>>63626
Actually, it's not clear if any Titan fragments we find would be incorporated into us as complete Devas, or whether they'd be just resources for us to cannibalize.

Even if we do come across an inert Deva, I'm not sure we could incorporate it into an existing titan. The splicing process that tied Wordblood to Saulanna may not be repeatable now that she's no longer solely human, or a blank slate.

Also, I'm not sure if this is even a good idea- but more titan fragments could potentially be used to seed more new titans. Make ourselves peers. Of course, there's the moral questions of the process involved, and the question of the sense in doing so (obviously could go wrong a lot of ways).
>>
No. 63631 ID: cee89f

>>63608
> I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero.
Well in that case you want a Seeing soul, so we can see when they're coming.

1)We're beyond the domain of fate, so they're not going to be able to tell where we are through their ordinary means.

2) It's not like we can have the Stealth soul conceal us 24/7

>>63629
Peregrin told us our soul had to be 'scrubbed in order for the soul to accept the graft' which tells me Wordblood was only able to attach without difficult because we were so clean. It's likely we'd have to subdue other souls, or at least stop them from being hostile.

>>63626
I think individual Devas would also give us passive abilities related to their elements - for instance, we knew absolutely nothing when we formed, but because we had a Deva of communication, we were able to understand three different languages and more. As I said before, a Seeing soul of Truth might be able to, for instance, grant us Truesight.

>>63614
Titans are exempt from fate - it wouldn't help us find fragments.

>Devas
Personally I'm a fan of getting both a Healer soul with the Rebirth element, and a Seeing Soul with the Truth element, for reasons already discussed.

HOWEVER! We should probably hold off on that, at least for now. We don't know how painful this will be for Saulanna, and if we've already got... what was it? +20 Nightmares?

At least until we've recovered from this trauma and others, we should probably focus on bringing our own power back up.
>>
No. 63633 ID: 70c0f2

>We should probably hold off on that, at least for now.
Agreed. I think we need to spend time powering up our three existing Lords before we make any more. We have loads of unexploited potential to capitalize on before we diversify further.
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No. 63634 ID: cd4189

While the Fate Seeing soul might not be good at finding fragments, it could be pretty damn good at figuring out what those Sidereals are up to. And other Exalted. Do Death Heroes have no Fate still? Might not help them, but damn if it couldn't be useful for everyone else.

Still, it's beating down the door of the Maidens, I suspect. Maybe not enough gain, not that I see. Although man if we did get it, we might be able to out-ninja the Fate ninja when we fight by seeing what they're trying to do with Fate dickery. That would be hilarious.

Truth is probably more all around useful though. i think Deception is more informative and likely to be more Tricksy, a perspective we need, but the associations with the Dragon's Shadow is too risky. Even if it could help us get into the heads of liars and figure them out....

While we discuss possible new Devas (in the far future), perhaps we should consider a Deva of Finding? If we want a more esoteric term, scrying. That's a bit similar to Seeing though. But essentially, a Deva whose entire purpose is to the Find things for us. Perhaps with an element of Lost? Unknown? Mystery?

Seeing Soul first though, we need intel. Good LORD do we need better intel. Wordblood is very knowledgable, but he's not so informative on current events.

And for our Healing soul, while Rebirth is easily tied to us and our identity, let's consider Life. It's sharing with Gaia, but it sounds like Gaia would be pretty chill. Or perhaps Life as a Creation Deva?

.....Actually, a Deva with the purpose of Creation sounds like a pretty good one to nab in general, sooner or later. Further down the list of Devas to get, but not much further. On the flip side, there's Destruction. A Deva devoted to destroying, say, Darkness? Still, destroying is a very negative attribute. It takes and never gives. I'd be much more wary of a Destruction Deva than one of Creation.
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No. 63635 ID: 9b155d

>I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero.

The current setting is so different with two different kinds of Solars, Free Infernals, the Dragon's Shadow, ect ect that I have a hard time believing the Siderals have the resources to make assassinating a Lunar with even more powers then normal holed up in a Shadowland with a somewhat experienced Death Hero a viable plan of action. Not at least without us being pressured by all the other enemies we'd make if our nature got out. If it's just the Siderals, I think we'll be able to make do. Our current location isn't really the easiest place to infiltrate in the first place.
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No. 63636 ID: 70c0f2

> we might be able to out-ninja the Fate ninja when we fight by seeing what they're trying to do with Fate dickery. That would be hilarious.
Why not out-ninja the fate dickery with time dickery? We don't need a new deva for that, and as a Titan we're above fate; Wordblood said as much.
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No. 63637 ID: cd4189

>>63636

We are above Fate, but the Sidereals use Fate to fight. And just about everything else, if I understand them correctly. So by 'seeing' Fate we can neutralize or mitigate a lot of their tricks.

But it'd have to confer other benefits to us for it to be seriously worth making a Lord Seeing Soul out of it. If our Time Soul can accomplish a similar effect, great. Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.
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No. 63638 ID: bf54a8

making a deva of fate would let that deva be seen by the sidereals. since you must be OF fate to see it.
>>
No. 63639 ID: 70c0f2

I don't think we'll be allowed some degree of time based dickery once we've invested in the Deva. (And in battle time shenanigans seems like it would have a lot of overlap with in battle fate shenanigans).

>Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.
The purpose is it's role. It feeds on, produces, and manages mystic energies for us. But, it's still going to be a deva in its own right. It will be a being of time, with dominion over it, the same way Wordblood is with words. The purpose may shape or limit the way we can potentially apply that- but there will be ways we can apply that beyond the Time-Deva playing mere battery and power grid all day. If there weren't, there wouldn't be any point to choosing an interesting element for him or her to begin with.
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No. 63640 ID: 9b155d

I'd point out the versatility of power words as an example of a Deva being a lot more then it's purpose. A LOT more in the case of power words. So strongk
>>
No. 63641 ID: cee89f

>Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.

Wordblood is an Aide. That didn't stop him from creating Power Words.
>>
No. 63642 ID: cd4189

I stand corrected on my objections over the Feeding Soul. Well, we'll see how it turns out. Being a newborn I rather doubt it will match up to Wordblood, but we can hope.
>>
No. 63643 ID: 9b155d

>>63642
Can something literally made of Time ever be young?
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No. 63645 ID: 38cd76

>Titans are exempt from fate - it wouldn't help us find fragments.

I corrected myself in a later post, actually. That was what I intended to say to begin with.

Really, I could easily see our Time Soul taking Fate as a noble at some point. Lets not mess with it.

I also think Truth would be more useful than Deceit for Seeing. I mean, you can see truth, even if someone is hiding it, is what I get out of a Truth Seeing Soul.

It would also be very useful in combat, even if the Siderals COULD try to use fate to fight us, we'd be able to SEE through whatever trickery they were up to with it. Because we can see Truth.

Really, combining our Time Powers with Truth powers, we'd be pretty awesome no matter how you look at it.


What is Wordblood's Purpose as a deva, anyways?
>>63633
I agree with this statement.

I also find the concept of using extra titan pieces to make Saulana some peers to be interesting. Do you think our lacky would want to try that out? What was his name again? We might be able to store his knowledge away somewhere, using our titan powers, make him a titan too (but still bound by his loyalty to us) and then give it back to him.

That would probably not necessarily be wise though.

Though it would be fun.
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No. 63646 ID: cee89f

>>63643
"I am Clockwork, master of time. *shifts into a young man* For me, time moves backwards *shifts into a baby* and forwards *shifts into a young man, then into an old man* and- oh why do i bother..."

Yes. Doesn't necessarily need to STAY that way.
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No. 63647 ID: 70c0f2

>What is Wordblood's Purpose as a deva, anyways?
Aide, or adviser. Words or communication is damn near a perfect element for that. (Just think, we could have been stuck with the aid of paper clips. Or the adviser of annoying fairy noises).
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No. 63648 ID: cd4189

>It would also be very useful in combat, even if the Siderals COULD try to use fate to fight us, we'd be able to SEE through whatever trickery they were up to with it. Because we can see Truth.

Er, what? As I understand it Sidereal powers aren't about deception. They use Fate, yes, but it's more like they manipulate it. Like molding clay. So Truth probably won't help us unless the Sideral is trying to use something with deception, in which case Truth Seeing is just as valid against any type of Exalted.

Seeing and manipulating Fate, on the other hand, is us dicking around with the Sidereals. If we choose to focus on Fate, I'd bet we could blow them out of the water. We are the deciders, the Titans. We could dictate Fate, should we so choose. We'd have to overcome the Maidens first, and they'd crush us at the moment, but we'd have the potential.

Although Fate as Time's Noble Soul is not a bad idea either. Not at all.
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No. 63650 ID: 9b155d

>>63646
You're using an example of someone who can manipulate Time, not something MADE of time. I mean, what is age really? A measurement of time as it applies to something. The larger this measured amount of time is, the older something is. Something inherently having more Time by being made primarily by it seems the sort of thing that would alter that measurement. A conceptual entity linked to a concept we're used to being almost entirely static for everything may well have some odd properties to it.

>We'd have to overcome the Maidens first, and they'd crush us at the moment, but we'd have the potential.

Not sure a single Lord Deva dedicated to Fate would be enough to overcome the Maidens of Fate. The Incarnae are supposed to be on the same level as some of the most exceptional examples of Lord Devas. And there's a lot of Maidens of Fate. Also according to Exalted canon, the maidens popped up before any of the other Incarnae and none of the Primordials have any idea where they came from. One of the fan theories regarding them is that they're actual Third Circle Devas of a hiding Primordial, which makes a good deal of sense if suddenly twice as many of them showed up in this setting. So we could be dealing with an entire Titan dedicated to Fate that can hide from all the other Primordials if we went that route. And even if it's not, we'd still be pitting our one Lord Deva up against a bunch of more experienced Incarnae.
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No. 63651 ID: 38cd76

>>63648
My argument is, essentially ALL combat is about deception. Once your enemy knows what you're going to do, they have you. For the most part. Unless you have like, a perfect defense or perfect attack or something...

But when they manipulate fate, they take advantage of what was originally going to be, which is especially devastating because that would be what we would think was supposed to be too, but if we can see Truth, then we know what is changing, they can't hide it.

It wouldn't be the PERFECT application. There would be more things you could do against siderealas with fate than with truth. But truth would hardly be useless against them either, and it would be useful against most everyone else just the same.

I'm happy leaving fate up to our timesoul though.

I'm sure we'll get all sorts of awesome tricks.
>>
No. 63653 ID: cd4189

>>63650

....

Ummm....

....

Okay, I think I might have been dissuaded from a Fate Deva. That's a pretty terrifying possibility, especially if said Titan does exist and is hostile. Even if it doesn't exist, I do realize that the Maidens certainly outnumber us and working in concert, could overpower us. Not IMPOSSIBLE for us to win, but proving an impossible is like proving a negative.

....Yeah, unless we somehow get the Maidens on our side and approving of us going the Fate route, we better tread lightly here.

>>63651

Alright, I think I can see how a Truth Soul could be so great for combat, even against Sidereals. I can get behind that kind of semantics abuse. Fate would be much more effective against Sidereals, but they might be able to affect us via our Fate Deva, so maybe that's a bit risky.

IF we get a Fate Deva, and I'm suddenly much more worried about essentially barging in on the Maiden's monopoly, leaving it up to our Time Soul sounds reasonable. It could certainly dovetail well.

...Oh man, I just thought of an awesome use for Time and a Healing Rebirth. Reincarnating a person with all their memories, AND put them back in a younger body. All the experience, all the power, plus youth. That could be a wonderfully tempting carrot to offer people in order to gain support.
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No. 63655 ID: 38cd76

It occurs to me, a truth seeing soul would also be good in social situations. Probably. Or it could be dangerous, as we found out with the oath thing before... but I suspect our deva would be able to tell if someone was hiding the truth by telling the truth, as it were.

Or maybe I"m giving a truth soul too much credit. eh.

>....Yeah, unless we somehow get the Maidens on our side and approving of us going the Fate route, we better tread lightly here.

I think this is why we are advised against playing with causality much with our timesoul. We dont' want to make big enemies.

The pattern spiders, the sidereals... fate itself. Uhg.

>...Oh man, I just thought of an awesome use for Time and a Healing Rebirth. Reincarnating a person with all their memories, AND put them back in a younger body. All the experience, all the power, plus youth. That could be a wonderfully tempting carrot to offer people in order to gain support.

I support this concept. Everyone needs worshipers.

I worry that rebirth might have very limited application though. I mean, we may want to heal things WITHOUT having to recreate them from scratch.

Though, that COULD provides some nice benefits too...
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No. 63656 ID: 9b155d

Yeah, I'd rather not make enemies of the pattern spiders myself. They're pretty cool. Anytime someone inside of fate does something cool but impractical, they manipulate fate a little bit to make it even more effective then the boring practical way.(The fluff explanation of the stunt mechanics)

Once in an Infernal game, my group managed to actually piss off all the Pattern Spiders.(Long Story short; Someone went Devil-Tiger and chose freedom as a theme after finding out that their crappy pre-Exaltation life was in service to someone else's awesome fate and an attempt on the Loom was made and failed) GM made damn near every single non-extra we ran across get the 3 dice stunt bonus as a way to represent them working against us.
>>
No. 63657 ID: cd4189

>>63655

Perhaps a Life Lord soul, with Rebirth/Reincarnation as a Noble soul? I do agree that making things from scratch would be damn inconvenient at times if we had to do it all the time. Putting it under Life may alleviate that, even if we are more compatible with Rebirth given our Origins.

Also, just THINK of all the old, old Noble Souls hanging around with amazing knowledge and whatnot. What if we offer them a new life, offer to create a new Noble soul for them, and all they have to do is pledge their allegiance to us? Like a True Name oath, or straight up akuma. The former is probably more appealing.

But in any case, we could get ancient heroes on our side, rebirth them with their 'good' memories, and maybe edit out the worse parts to save them from detrimental memories like insanity. Plus, we take them away from the Dragon's Shadow.

Only problem is that this would be pricy AND antagonize the Dragon's Shadow, but DAMN this could be a great way to get loyal vassals! I don't think they keep their Exaltation, but even then we can teach them Titan Magic. We could really make a religion off of second chances.

>>63656

....Yeah, let's NOT have that happen to us.
>>
No. 63658 ID: 38cd76

>Only problem is that this would be pricy AND antagonize the Dragon's Shadow, but DAMN this could be a great way to get loyal vassals! I don't think they keep their Exaltation, but even then we can teach them Titan Magic. We could really make a religion off of second chances.

Intriguing concept. This could work especially well if we're able to work with all of these ghosts and dead people at all. I wonder if that would work.

There has to be something that keeps ghosts from coming back to life.

Though a life soul may work just as well for such a purpose...
>>
No. 63661 ID: cd4189

>>63658

Well, let's not forget that something the Dragon's Shadow is doing is keeping ghosts from reincarnating properly, IIRC. People stuck in the new Underworld don't get to leave if they want to. Again, IIRC. Personally I think the Dragon's Shadow is doing this on purpose, and harvesting lots of souls. Ghosts becomes Shades. Possibly they now belong to the Dragon's Shadow in some way? Or is this just starving Creation of new souls, weakening it by removing the amount of people who can eventually produce prayer for the gods, and make sure there are fewer candidates for Exaltations.

If I'm correct, ruining the Dragon's Shadow's racket would put a dent in his plans. We're too weak to be considered a viable opponent to the Dragon's Shadow, but we might be able to build a rep amongst the dead on offering them second chances and getting them away from the Dragon's Shadow.

We'd need to provide a new Beast Soul, and a body, but with Titanic magic I don't think those are insurmountable obstacles at all.

Hmm.....Time Feeding soul, Life Creation Soul, and a Rebirth/Reincarnation Healing Soul all working in tandem? May that's an extravagant set-up. But they are all good Devas. And working together could pull off the closest thing to a true resurrection. If Rebirth alone isn't enough. Maybe a Rebirth aligned with Creation will be sufficient on its own?

Either way, there's something worth the risk of rebelling against the Dragon's Shadow.
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No. 63662 ID: a0263a

>>63650

The theory that the Maidens are actually Devas goes hand-in-hand with my theory that the Loom of Fate is a Primordial, and that the Pattern Spiders and Maidens are Souls of if. A terrifying thought, but intriguing.
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No. 63663 ID: 5bf190

Since it's something Saulanna would know from what she's eaten... the Dragon's Shadow actually causes more souls to pass on than did before. But the ones that are left are those that are particularly stubborn to begin with.
>>
No. 63664 ID: 38cd76

Is it possibly we're unjustly maligning the dragon's shadow?
>>
No. 63665 ID: 9b155d

>>63662
The Pattern Spiders, according to Exalted canon, are explicitly creations of Autobot. I think the Loom of Fate is as well, but I could be misremembering that as I couldn't find that info in a quick look through the Yu-Shan book. Could have sworn there was something about it being created to deal with the fact that the Maidens previously had to manage everything by hand, including making physics behave somewhat consistently. Closest thing I found on said quick look was a reference that said no being knew as much about the Loom as Autobot.
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No. 63666 ID: a0263a

>>63665

I imagine there is an explanation like that in the books...and that's totally cool. But the idea of the Loom being more than that is just awesome. I'm also the type of person who believes there is totally a 6th, hidden Maiden somewhere.

I'm a setting conspiracy theorist.
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No. 63667 ID: 9b155d

>>63666
It's definitely a cool idea; just trying to keep things a bit clear about what's canon in normal Exalted for those less familiar with the setting.

And hey, in Lunar Quest there are five more maidens!
>>
No. 63672 ID: 87eb8c

>>63667
>Five more maidens
... Wait, what?

>>63664
Oh I very much doubt it. The guy's an asshole. Evil? Maybe, maybe not. But DEFINITELY an asshole.

>>63661
I'm still a big supporter of the Rebirth Lordly Deva.

>>63658
Yes. It's the fact that their body IS DEAD.

>>63650
That particular aspect of his form was impossible for him to control, and being MADE OF time doesn't seem like it'd be all that different from manipulating it. Besides, Titans are immortal, right? So the Deva would have eternal youth.... riiiiight?

I'm not saying it COULDN'T be stuck as an old man - just that I don't see any reason it couldn't be stuck in it's prime, or shift like Clockwork did... well, besides the fact that that would put a lot of strain on our author.
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No. 63674 ID: 70c0f2

>Perhaps a Life Lord soul, with Rebirth/Reincarnation as a Noble soul?
I would think Rebirth would be a more potent Lord than life. I'd prefer to see Life as the noble.

>Taking on fate
As someone who's entire knowledgebase of exalted pretty much come from Jukashi and tvtropes, I have to say I'm somewhat annoyed we're perpetually discussing the threat that players that haven't even been introduced in this setting might pose to us, and planning countermeasures against them. Especially since we have no idea how much might have changed from cannon, and we have more pressing threats.

And really- Siderals can be fought with Lunar or Titanic powers just like any other exalted if we have to- even if they are fate ninjas.

As for the maidens themselves, or the pattern spiders, or the entire forces of fate? Obviously not something we can take on now, as we're having trouble just dealing with the heros we have on our plate now. We're just a wee baby titan for now.

>Souls, reincarnation
I'm also confused as to why so many people still seem to think reincarnation is supposed to be our concern, that we're supposed to get involved in the process, or that it's a moral imperative.

People die, souls get recycled, new people get printed on the fresh soul paper. Big deal. It ain't our responsibility to make that happen or improve the process, and it's no tragedy if Saulanna eats a particular pieces of paper rather than let a person get printed on it. It's the person that's important- not what they're made of. Soul stuff is just a shell that houses a personality for a while- no more special than the meat that does the same.

The only moral problem with eating souls is you're killing off the person currently printed on that piece of soul-paper, using that spirit-meat. Not that some sap down the line in the circle of life doesn't get to use the exact same materials after they've been decomposed or recycled.
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No. 63675 ID: 87eb8c

>>63674
...
>Soul stuff is just a shell that houses a personality for a while- no more special than the meat that does the same.
>implies it's just as okay to eat a soul as it is human flesh
>implying it's okay to eat human flesh as long as you haven't killed the person

...

*backs away slowly*
>>
No. 63677 ID: 70c0f2

>>63675
Hahaha. XD Maybe I've played one too many roguelikes if I've gotten that desensitized to eating the bodies of your enemies. (Although it's somewhat difficult to find a game system where killing isn't incentivized to some extent. Abstract XP is a lot cleaner than eating your enemies, but... you're still making people into a resource that can be harvested).

More broadly, I'm just trying to make the case that consuming ghosts is no worse than murder (assuming that we still consider ghosts as people, which some people in this setting clearly do not). People seem more concerned that the stuff-that-once-made-up-a-person isn't available for reuse than with the actual ending of that person. I find that somewhat mindboggling.
>>
No. 63679 ID: 1752c2

>>63677

Personally, I tend to view death as one of the constants of the setting. Or at least so constant that it doesn't matter. People are gonna die. Hopefully not by our hand, but I highly doubt we'll be able to avoid killing anyone/anything. Death is a part of the 'cycle'. It's how Creation keeps running.

It could be potentially possible to foul up the engine that is creation by removing enough soul-stuff from circulation. That IS something worth avoiding, and we're much more likely to be able to keep the system running properly than we are avoiding killing. Killing is bad, no doubt, but let's not forget the longer view here. It's a REALLY long view, but the big players are the type to play such a long game.
>>
No. 63681 ID: b978d0

>>63674
Technically the process is more akin to merging with the souls rather than outright consumption. Merely digesting the souls as raw materials wouldn't net the (sometimes horrifying) knowledge that Saulanna has been gaining. Without Wordblood to parse the information from the new souls, it's likely that personality and memory corruption would occur as well, which would not be good for us.

The end result is that the ghosts that are being absorbed aren't exactly being killed. In fact, more of them would continue to exist when absorbed than if they had passed on due to their accumulated knowledge not simply being washed away. They still cease to exist as an independent sentient entity though.

That said, it's a moral grey area at best, and likely a darker shade of grey at that. It's only different from eating another sentient being on a technicality. Better than obliterating an offending soul completely, but probably worse than devouring the hearts blood of a creature.

I'd suggest ranking absorption of souls up there with personally carrying out executions of the more uncivil kind, and potentially as high as genocide. Possibly justifiable in extreme cases (with the two jailed souls sounding like they might qualify as sufficiently extreme), but not something you want to make a habit of.

Even a titan in it's prime would not do well to develop a reputation as an all devouring monster. And with reputations being built more on rumour than on facts, it wouldn't take much...
>>
No. 63682 ID: 70c0f2

>>63681
Oh I agree that the soul consumption isn't necessarily a good or appetizing thing for us to be doing.

It's just that the idea of somehow working ourselves into the reincarnation cycle to somehow make it okay keeps being raised. When that in no way address what's actually upsetting about what we're doing.
>>
No. 63684 ID: 38cd76

Personally, I don't find what we're doing upsetting at all.

I mean, everyone's gotta go sometime. The people we're eating are already dead. And yeah, they're still people, but all we're really doing is turning a somewhat natural process to our advantage.

And it's not like the ones we've been eating are really good people or anything. It's all the unsavory sort, that we don't really want in our ghost societies anyways.

It would be nice to have a healing soul of somekind, and if we can offer rebirth to people as an incentive to worship us and get more soul-power, all the better. I'm just not sure that rebirth as an element is the best way to go about it.

A creation soul with a life element might fulfill a more direct purpose, and we can then go and pick something else for healing. Maybe something as simple as wood. Or maybe something more wild, to fit in with our matron Gaia.
>>
No. 63685 ID: 1752c2

I think I just realized a fantastic use for Healing Deva with element of Rebirth.

Our Healing would probably require us to start from scratch. Or at least, higher functions of it will. But! When we Heal a person, we're not just closing wounds or healing sickness. We're rebuilding them. And inherent conditions, blindness and whatnot? We can get rid of those. What's more, where a normal person who grew up blind would be unable to use thei restored vision to its fullest extent, we could make them able to do so. We can reorder their mind and being. They have flaws that they can't get rid of? If they're willing to be reborn, we can rebuild them to their desire. We could slip in some suspicious things too, but if we should be honest and upfront about this. Especially if we have a Truth Seeing soul. Looks better on our part.

The big utility of a Rebirth Healing soul would be the ability to 'heal' more than the superficial. Get rid of nightmares, phobias, we can MAKE them a better person. If that's what they want.

We could, potentially, make a person their ideal self. Now there are morals grey areas here, oh yes. Is the person that comes out the same as what comes in? Debatable. If we can honestly answer, "Yes," though? Soooooo many people will flock to us.

Hell, maybe we can set ourselves up as an alternative to capital punishment. Instead of an execution, send them to us. We'll wipe the slate clean and give them a true second chance. Or we'll rebuild them as we wish/are requested. It's an interesting alternative to executions, no?

I think I'm enjoying the idea of Rebirth Healing more and more.
>>
No. 63686 ID: 1752c2

I think I just realized a fantastic use for Healing Deva with element of Rebirth.

Our Healing would probably require us to start from scratch. Or at least, higher functions of it will. But! When we Heal a person, we're not just closing wounds or healing sickness. We're rebuilding them. And inherent conditions, blindness and whatnot? We can get rid of those. What's more, where a normal person who grew up blind would be unable to use thei restored vision to its fullest extent, we could make them able to do so. We can reorder their mind and being. They have flaws that they can't get rid of? If they're willing to be reborn, we can rebuild them to their desire. We could slip in some suspicious things too, but if we should be honest and upfront about this. Especially if we have a Truth Seeing soul. Looks better on our part.

The big utility of a Rebirth Healing soul would be the ability to 'heal' more than the superficial. Get rid of nightmares, phobias, we can MAKE them a better person. If that's what they want.

We could, potentially, make a person their ideal self. Now there are morals grey areas here, oh yes. Is the person that comes out the same as what comes in? Debatable. If we can honestly answer, "Yes," though? Soooooo many people will flock to us.

Hell, maybe we can set ourselves up as an alternative to capital punishment. Instead of an execution, send them to us. We'll wipe the slate clean and give them a true second chance. Or we'll rebuild them as we wish/are requested. It's an interesting alternative to executions, no?

And hey, what about Death Heroes and Infernal Exalted? Suppose we could reincarnate them into Solars. Person's the same, Exaltation is just different. If we get a willing participant, we just may be able to do this relatively easily. Or this could be how we get our own Exalted. We use Rebirth on the Infernals/Death Heroes and turn them back into Solars, or our own Exalted.

And what do you know, we have a Death Hero very close by. Test subject? Oh the irony is delicious. Hell, maybe we could reincarnate willing people as other Titans. There are considerable possibilities, although Healing may not be entirely sufficient to achieve them.

I think I'm enjoying the idea of Rebirth Healing more and more.
>>
No. 63687 ID: b978d0

>>63684
Whether or not we or Saulanna find the process upsetting isn't nearly as important as whether others will find it to be upsetting. Others that would potentially find it to be a reason to terminate us with extreme prejudice.

Continued survival generally requires that you remain off of the Kill On Sight list of entities that are currently higher on the food chain. Right now, that's quite a lot of entities to worry about. Some of which could curb-stomp us into oblivion as an afterthought.

Given that the titans were overthrown in the past, with Wordblood being a part of one that was TORN INTO INERT FRAGMENTS, I'd say that this is a valid concern regardless of how much power is accumulated.
>>
No. 63688 ID: 9b155d

I'd definitely prefer a Life Lord Deva then a Rebirth one, especially on the Creation front. Rebirth requires people to give up what they are now. Eventually less and less people will be willing to do that and things will dwindle, which will not make the Deva happy. As a Noble Deva of Life is fine, but making it a Lord Soul is asking for trouble when it eventually starts either causing it by force or social magicking people into wanting it.

On the soul eating thing... I'd put it up there with killing someone in real life, as we don't know if there's souls and stuff or if we're permanently ending somethings existence. Maybe a bit worse as we know we are in Quest, or perhaps more equivalent as we know the person themselves gets wiped out anyway if the natural cycle follows through. But like in real life, if someone is a torturous murderous bastard or an enemy that's trying to do you undue harm on similar levels and you not only remove the threat but gain from the act? Go for it, though there may be consequences to deal with. Others might doubt whether they were as big a problem if they know you stood to gain from the act, so it's the sort of thing that needs laws to govern it in society so people don't end up doing it all the time to those who don't deserve it, but that's more a practical issue for society then a moral one. Justified as far as I'm concerned.

>... Wait, what?

Ctrl+F in the main thread and look for maidens. There's ten of them now.

>That particular aspect of his form was impossible for him to control, and being MADE OF time doesn't seem like it'd be all that different from manipulating it.

Would you think being made of Water is much different then manipulating it? Do you think Wordblood isn't much different then someone who's just really good with words? Being made from something and manipulating it are VERY different things.

> Besides, Titans are immortal, right? So the Deva would have eternal youth.... riiiiight?

>I'm not saying it COULDN'T be stuck as an old man - just that I don't see any reason it couldn't be stuck in it's prime, or shift like Clockwork did... well, besides the fact that that would put a lot of strain on our author.

I'm not saying anything about the form it takes. Something that's thousands of years old is still thousands of years old whether it has the form of a baby or something else. I'm talking about just flat out how old the thing is. I have no idea what simply being older might do, but the fact that is might never actually be young seems like something that could happen. This is what I meant by being made of something largely conceptual that for us it's function is almost entirely static for us normally. We have crap all for frame of reference.
>>
No. 63692 ID: 1752c2

>I'd definitely prefer a Life Lord Deva then a Rebirth one, especially on the Creation front. Rebirth requires people to give up what they are now. Eventually less and less people will be willing to do that and things will dwindle, which will not make the Deva happy. As a Noble Deva of Life is fine, but making it a Lord Soul is asking for trouble when it eventually starts either causing it by force or social magicking people into wanting it.

While this is very much a valid concern, I think it's worth noting that making a Life Lord Deva might be intruding on Gaia's portfolio a bit much. I suspect we'll have much less competition for the Rebirth Element.

Just something to keep in mind.

Also, if Rebirth is a Lord Deva, we might be able to do it to our own Devas. If one is no longer as desirable an Element or Purpose, Rebirth gives it a new Element/Purpose. All the knowledge, power, and experience...but new attributes.

I wouldn't mind a potential respec. Between Rebirth and Time we could probably pull it off.
>>
No. 63693 ID: 9b155d

>>63692
>Also, if Rebirth is a Lord Deva, we might be able to do it to our own Devas. If one is no longer as desirable an Element or Purpose, Rebirth gives it a new Element/Purpose. All the knowledge, power, and experience...but new attributes.

Do you want our Devas to revolt? This is the sort of the thing to encourage us thinking of them as mechanics, which I very much do not like. It's one thing to consider the mechanics when making them, it's another to think about destroying who they are to have a mechanic we want more.

>While this is very much a valid concern, I think it's worth noting that making a Life Lord Deva might be intruding on Gaia's portfolio a bit much. I suspect we'll have much less competition for the Rebirth Element.

Wordblood gave the impression that Gaia was the type to be cool with stuff like that and she's currently gone.
>>
No. 63694 ID: 1752c2

>>63693

>Do you want our Devas to revolt? This is the sort of the thing to encourage us thinking of them as mechanics, which I very much do not like. It's one thing to consider the mechanics when making them, it's another to think about destroying who they are to have a mechanic we want more.

Who said anything about forcing them? That would be rather unwise, especially when we will be at our strongest banding together. Supposing they AGREED to it, that they wished to be remade to suit another Purpose.

Granted, they might not want to. In which case, forcing them in unwise. Unless, well, they're real trouble makers and most of us want them gone because they're crippling us.

I suppose this ability could be turned on us too, if we ever lost control. So definite drawbacks.

>Wordblood gave the impression that Gaia was the type to be cool with stuff like that and she's currently gone.

Yeah, I remember that. So it's probably true, we can get away with Life. It's still something to keep in mind, should we desire a soul or domain that can't be influenced. Hell, that's one of the main reasons I'd even consider a Raccoon Deva. It's silly, but apparently similar 'Elements' have been used, and we'd have it to ourselves.
>>
No. 63695 ID: 42ace1

>>63694
When did Jukashi indicate that Elements similar to 'Raccoon' were used?
>>
No. 63696 ID: 1752c2

>>63695

Might not have been Jukashi, but I remember the Isidoros has been mentioned as an example of a Titan defined by being a Boar. It's a decent point.
>>
No. 63697 ID: d785c7

>>63696
That doesn't mean that "board" is an element of his though, any more than wordbloods element is "dragons", yet he is draconic in form. Thigh he did use to have BLOOD as an element, which I find intriguing.
>>
No. 63698 ID: 70c0f2

>>63696
The boar-primordial was brought up by a suggester, we don't know if it exists in this setting, and there was some debate as to whether it actually had 'boar' as an element, or if that's just how the amalgamation of his parts came together (like the Dragon's Shadow. He doesn't have Dragon in any of his elements, or Rebellion either, but those are the shape we perceive him in, and the theme we define him by).

So no, it's not that great a defense for a Raccoon elemental.
>>
No. 63700 ID: cee89f

>>63688
>Just talking about how old the thing is
...Then why bring it up AT ALL? the thing is going to be exaactly as old as it is. We make it at second zero, it's gonna be 3 seconds old at second three.

Would you think being made of Water is much different then manipulating it? Do you think Wordblood isn't much different then someone who's just really good with words? Being made from something and manipulating it are VERY different things.

Time is different from water - it doesn't have a physical manifestation.

And no. I DON'T see any significant difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use communication as a weapon. Sure, he uses it very well, but that's not the point.

>We have crap all for frame of reference.

Really.
Because the way i read it, you brought up 'he would be old if he was made of time' as a definite FACT. Not theory. FACT.

>Can something literally made of Time ever be young?

Maybe I'm putting too much sarcasm into it, but there >.>
>>
No. 63702 ID: 9b155d

>Because the way i read it, you brought up 'he would be old if he was made of time' as a definite FACT. Not theory. FACT.

Did you miss the question mark?

>...Then why bring it up AT ALL?
Because I find the implications of physical entities made up of something that is conceptual in nature but a concept whose effect we can measure but not the actual concept itself interesting?

>We make it at second zero, it's gonna be 3 seconds old at second three.

Those are measurements of Time being applied to a being made of Time.

>Time is different from water - it doesn't have a physical manifestation.

In quest it will very soon. But the point is more that they behave very differently. The same way a being made of water cannot be dry a being made of time may not be able to be described as young, as that's a descriptor for something based on a lower then what you consider average measurement of time.

>And no. I DON'T see any significant difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use communication as a weapon. Sure, he uses it very well, but that's not the point.

... Not even sure what to say to this. Being made of something is a lot different then manipulating it.

>>63696
That was me, and I think it's more likely his Devas all are in line with the qualities Boars usually represent. Only reason I think he might have a boar as an element is that he just so happens to have a minimum of 19 Third Circle Souls iirc. That's a lot of elements to fill.
>>
No. 63703 ID: fb9917

I just want to point out that we don't necessarily have to create a healing soul to do healing. Between Lunar powers and Sorcery and Artifacts we could do a whole lot of things to help people. Same thing with combat, really. The reason I suggested a Stealth soul is because hiding our Titan-ness doesn't really fall under any of those. Also we should totally learn Sorcery it rules.
>>
No. 63704 ID: cee89f

>>63702
>Question mark
Have you never heard a question phrased in a manner that it implies a statement instead?

>Because I find the implications of physical entities made up of something that is conceptual in nature but a concept whose effect we can measure but not the actual concept itself interesting?

>In quest it will very soon. But the point is more that they behave very differently. The same way a being made of water cannot be dry a being made of time may not be able to be described as young, as that's a descriptor for something based on a lower then what you consider average measurement of time.

That's two different things. In order for your idea to work, a Water elemental would never be able to decrease the amount of water it's releasing or made up of. Being dry is the opposite of being wet. The opposite of being Time is being OUTSIDE of time. By that idea, it could never leave the constraints of time...

...Except that Wordblood has demonstrated that it IS possible to do the opposite of your domain if needed (in his case, render language utterly incomprehensible), it's just really painful


>Those are measurements of Time being applied to a being made of Time.

You're trying to describe it as 'old'. That's a measurement, too.

>... Not even sure what to say to this. Being made of something is a lot different then manipulating it.

Not for a Deva. They can manipulate their elements because they are made of them.

But the problem I have is that you're assigning the guy who can use communication as a weapon a power level that suggests he's just a smooth talker, and then comparing him to the guy who can tell the laws of physics to shut the hell up AND THEY WILL LISTEN TO HIM.

All other things equal, what would be the difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use Communication the same way he can? As far as I can tell, the main difference would be that we could read Wordblood's thoughts on his body.

I get what you're saying - the problem is that concepts like Time and Communication aren't physical things. The latter refers to how well two people can understand each other when they talk or act, and the former is a measure of entropy. If a Time Deva's age was fixed at all (something i find highly unlikely) why would it be stuck on an old man?

...Come to think of it, from the way you described young, if it were fixed (again, unlikely) wouldn't he just look the same age as whoever's looking at him?

Also:
>In quest it will very soon.
If Time was going to get a physical manifestation in the world because we made a Time Deva, then it would've already gotten one. We're not the first Titan to make a Time Deva.
>>
No. 63706 ID: 9b155d

>If Time was going to get a physical manifestation in the world because we made a Time Deva, then it would've already gotten one. We're not the first Titan to make a Time Deva.

The Time Deva IS the physical manifestation of Time I was referencing. Also, everything in Exalted can sort of have a physical representation. That's sort of how First Age Magitech worked. They went out into the Wyld and got bits of non-physical things to make physical things out of. As Jukashi described it, this is a setting where the Void, an utter absence of things is something you can shoot at someone.

>But the problem I have is that you're assigning the guy who can use communication as a weapon a power level that suggests he's just a smooth talker, and then comparing him to the guy who can tell the laws of physics to shut the hell up AND THEY WILL LISTEN TO HIM.

No I'm not. I'm trying to say you're being very limited in what you're saying Wordblood is. Power words are not the extent of what he can do, nor are a lot of his other powers. Back to the being made of water thing, in classic fantasy setting imagine the difference between, say, some who can sue water magic and a water elemental. Yes, they can both do things with water, but the thing made of Water has a whole host of other properties the guy just manipulating it doesn't, just as the guy not made of water has a whole host of properties the water elemental doesn't. For instance let's take a guy who could use Word Magic. Would he be directly empowered by great works of literature or hurt from the act of depriving words of meaning? Not likely. And these are just what we've noticed in two days in quest. I feel you're not giving enough weight to just how different being made of something is to manipulating it.


>I get what you're saying - the problem is that concepts like Time and Communication aren't physical things. The latter refers to how well two people can understand each other when they talk or act, and the former is a measure of entropy. If a Time Deva's age was fixed at all (something i find highly unlikely) why would it be stuck on an old man?

I never once said anything about being an old man or being stuck at the same age, only not being young. I simply find it perhaps a bit questionable that a Lord Soul of Time dedicated to Feeding would be what one would consider a small measurement of Time. By it's nature it should be Very Timey and constantly becoming moreso.

>...Come to think of it, from the way you described young, if it were fixed (again, unlikely) wouldn't he just look the same age as whoever's looking at him?

Why are you focused on looks. A shapeshifter taking the form of a baby isn't young if they've lived thousands of years old. Also don't understand why anything I've said would imply the Deva would look the age of anyone who observes it.
>>
No. 63712 ID: cee89f

...I typed up a massive reply, then realized I was pissed off for no good reason again. Think i'm gonna stop there before it gets REALLY out of hand. >.>
>>
No. 63713 ID: f2c20c

Can we get a new questdis before this one reaches 2000 posts?
>>
No. 63716 ID: 38cd76

>>63712
Yeah, I was going to say, I think you guys are talking past eachother and just getting pissed off now. Might need to take a breather.

I dn't think I buy the argument that the new Deva wont be young, simply because it's made out of time. It doesn't seem to necessarily follow. I could easily see isn't affected much by his young-ness, but really... we'll have to see how things work out.

We've never done this before, after all.
>>
No. 63717 ID: 1752c2

Ugh, feeling like brainstorming possibilities again. Might not be practical, but it's fun.

A Void element? Better choose a Purpose inclined towards Restraint, and make sure this guy can't kill US.

Element of Chaos, with the Purpose of Control? Maybe Guidance? Contradictory, but potentially powerful/useful.

Element of Negation, Purpose of Judgement? Deciding what is and what is not? Definitely heavy elements of Order though. Judgement is a good one if we wanna get in on Order though, it fits us as Titans very well. It's a good Noble, if nothing else.
>>
No. 63719 ID: 38cd76

Mentioning judgement...

I was thinking a Law element might be fun. Put us in direct opposition to the Dragon's Shadow.

I dont think that it's necessarily putting us into opposition with Luna and our Beastial nature either. Even Nature and the Wilderness has its laws.

Even the wyld has laws, after a fashion, in that lack of law is a law. If that makes sense.

Law would work well with wordblood too.

And in a way, the inscribing that's done to all lunars is an element of law.

It could be a fun element to work with.


For that matter, something to do with numbers, or math might also be good. We have words already. Why not math?

Law and math are somewhat related too, but only tenuously...
>>
No. 63720 ID: ab3218

law sucks

fuck da police
>>
No. 63722 ID: cee89f

Anyway. Different topic.

Perhaps we could style ourselves as the Masked One, Seer of Truth, Redeemer of the lost and Keeper of Secrets? Or any combination of those? In that vein, we could invest in our current themes, as well as Knowledge, Truth, Secrets, Rebirth and other such things.

Also:

If somebody hears Saulanna screaming and investigates (by which i mean shows up later to ask about it) I nominate this as our immediate response:

"I LIKE IT ROUGH, YA GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT, ICEHEAD/YA BITCH/BLOODFACE?!" (for Askalaff, Garmir and Akatrina, respectively)

...Yeah, i dunno where Icehead came from either >.>
>>
No. 63723 ID: b978d0

>>63719
Law I could see as being a combination of Judgement and a portion of Wordbloods domain. Laws mostly being recorded judgements that are agreed upon by society.

The law of the jungle is more akin to the laws of physics, being patterns that have been identified through observation rather than the result of a judgement that's been put forth. While they're not immutable, they also don't exist because someone said so but instead because that's just the way things are. Then again, that distinction may not hold true in creations case where the god of a river may just decide that the water that flows through it will indeed go uphill.

Either way, Law sounds like something that would overlap Wordbloods domain, especially considering the Words of Power ability.

Math I would say would be more of a noble that would fit in Wordbloods house. Numbers and math just being words and terminology used for quantification.

Judgement would probably make for a very strong offensive Diva, but I'd be wary of it edging out Saulanna for the Queen position. Plus we are effectively fulfilling the role of Saulanna's personal judgement here, so it could potentially horn in on our influence...
>>
No. 63724 ID: 38cd76
 

"I fought the law and the law won"


Though I do like the element of secrets. I'm not sure why. Maybe some sort of Library Purpose... like... for storing information for us, so that we don't have to remember everything. Give it an element of secrets.

Hm... or could use various other things.
>>
No. 63725 ID: fb9917

Does Sorcery work as a Purpose? And if it does, what sort of element would you want for something like that?

Also 'the Masked One' reminds me that Raccoons have Masks and so Masks might be a particularly fitting Element for a soul. If we created a stealth soul around that we could more easily wear the 'mask' of a Moon Hero.
>>
No. 63726 ID: 38cd76

I like that. Maybe a Keeper Purpose with Secrets element, to store knowledge of stuff and remind us of things we've forgtten.

Mask element for a stealth purpose is the first time I've ever actually liked the idea of a stealth deva. I like masks as an element for us though. That could be pretty sweet, and amazingly flexible.

Still not really feeling judgement... I'm having a hard time seeing it as either a purpose or an element. It's sort of... making decisions. Not a big fan of that concept in motion.

I do agree that Math and Law we should probably just let wordblood play around with though. That's a good idea.

I wanted to have more sciencey stuff to do too, but maybe with a good Info Keeper of like... secrets, or mysteries, or forgotten things, it could work.
>>
No. 63727 ID: 70c0f2

Mask... is actually one of the most attractive element ideas we've got right now. There are a lot of interesting, metaphorical ways we could apply or interpret that, and it has an appealing connection to our theme without the banal simplicity of Raccoon.

I agree that Math and Law, while interesting, sound like subordinates of Words. (I'd imagine a law noble could contribute to give quite a bit more kick to our power words- make them stick more, make them more absolute). Although maybe Math could work as subsoul for Time? Math certainly has a connection there, and would certainly be useful for power management / bookkeeping.

>Does Sorcery work as a Purpose?
It should. Pretty sure Wordblood said we could set something up to teach us sorcery (perhaps without the usual school restrictions, even) back in chapter one. Waaay before we got into the actual mechanics of Devas and elements and purposes though.
>>
No. 63728 ID: 38cd76

I would like to contribute, that if we want a Sorcery Deva we should just Coopt Peregrin's soul. That might be fun.
>>
No. 63729 ID: cee89f

>>63727
Wordblood also said Power Words would work just as well as sorcery, and from the looks of it, would be much simpler.

>>63726
Somebody should start a list.

...

And by that i mean, 'could somebody link me the wiki page from earlier again so i can start a list'

>>63725
Perhaps Magic itself? Or that could be our Mask soul... though personally i'd like to see that one as our Stealth soul. It'd be like assassin's creed: we hide in plain sight. Let our mannerisms and actions mask us so we become one with the scenery instead of outright hiding in dark corners.

>>63724
If we do make the Library one, I'd propose Knowledge for it's element. For obvious reasons.

... Actually, a Mask deva of Secrets could be exactly what we need here - we don't want Luna or the Moon Heroes as our enemies, mostly because we like Luna.

We could Mask our tattoos as something that both works AND make it so they don't show we're a Titan.

...

Could we make SAULANNA a Deva like that? I seem to recall something along those lines being discussed by Wordblood earlier...
>>
No. 63731 ID: 70c0f2

>could somebody link me the wiki page from earlier again so i can start a list
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest

Go wild. We probably don't need lists of pros and cons either- since that's based on incomplete guesses or assumptions. All we really need is a list of ideas for when it next becomes relevant.
>>
No. 63732 ID: 38cd76

http://tgchan.org/wiki/Lunar_Quest it wasn't this wiki was it?


Only problem I have with Knowledge being an element for something is that I think Wordblood wanted it for a noble, and i'd rather let him keep it. He's our buddy!

I hadn't thought that Mask could also be a purpose... that's a good point. I think I might prefer it as an element though. We could probably still use it to make everyone think we got the tattoos, in any case.
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No. 63733 ID: 70c0f2

>>63732
That's the main wiki, yes, but I think we're supposed to put facts there. We were using the talk page to track ideas.

I suppose mask could be swung as a purpose or an element. But as a purpose, it's a lot narrower an idea. To mask is much more specific an direct than the metaphorical concept of mask-ness. And less interesting, in my opinion.
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No. 63734 ID: cee89f

>>63731
Okay, thanks. Pros and Cons made the lists a pain in the ass to keep track of anyway.

I'll start the list from the point where we ended the long discussion of god-knows-what... here >>63712

Mostly because I'm lazy. =p
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No. 63735 ID: 38cd76

>>63733
I concur. You're one smart Anonymous!
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No. 63736 ID: fb9917

>>63729
Power Words are definitely superior to Sorcery in combat, or when we need something NOW, but Sorcery does a few things nothing else really does unless we decide to create a soul to do it. And given how painful the process is, we really should limit how often we do that. No other magic lets us call up elementals or demons and bind them to service, for example. Although binding Second or Third circle demons might be something Wordblood objects to, I doubt he would particularly care about us calling up demons of the First circle. And Gaia doesn't really care that much if you call up some elementals either. Magic as an element or purpose is MUCH broader than Sorcery, since Magic is basically...everything. I'm not even sure if Magic would qualify as a valid element given how broad it is? Sorcery is a specific way of using magic, as is Necromancy. It's different from most types of magic used by Exalts or Gods or spirits of various types.

I think a Stealth soul with the element of Masks could definitely let us get tattoos and still hide what we are, or even potentially change what the tattoos say to whatever we want, depending on how powerful the soul was. We don't really need to go more narrow than that to accomplish it.
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No. 63738 ID: cd4189

Hmm....Element Magic, Purpose Growth? We'd get some crazy magic fast, I should think. But Seeing Soul first before Magic, unless we think the magic will outweigh the intel. Honestly, I'd prefer intel.

Also, something we need to get right on once we have our Time Soul. We're essentially a world unto ourselves, and Titans can already stretch time quite a bit. It's how Wordblood conversed with us mid-conversation, I suspect. With a Time Deva, we can crank this up to absurd levels I think. We might be able to make our reflexes and ability to plan mid-fight absolutely insane.

Screwing with Time and causality brings enemies. But I think there's a good chance that we can manipulate Time with relative impunity so long as all the effects are restricted to our inner self.

Like...our new Time Feeding Deva consumes and strips down memories of a new soul near instantly, because of time manipulation, and we assimilate very quickly. Stuff like that.
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No. 63741 ID: cee89f

Anyone want to add anything to the discussion page while I'm waiting for my account to be approved? =p
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No. 63743 ID: 63f851

So hey everyone, while we're plotting the future, what are we going to do immediately after the feeding soul is created? We're gonna consume the slaver ghosts, which will give us TW to work with, and then we're gonna probably end up in social combat again really soon. I say that we should try and figure out how to boost Wordblood so that we can kick some ass in social combat. There's this post >>/quest/409525 but there might be others I missed.

...BTW, are we gonna have another discussion thread soon? I'd like to know how that works on this website. These chan boards are kinda weird.
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No. 63744 ID: cd4189

I thought we were pretty much draining ourselves of Titan's Will just to make this Feeding Soul? Well, if we have any projections on our resources after making the Feeding Soul, let's tally our assets.

Honestly, I'm hoping our new Feeding Soul will be able to aid us in some way.
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No. 63745 ID: 70c0f2

>>63735
=D

>what are we going to do immediately after the feeding soul is created?
Well, first we abuse our inner kingdom time thing to do mandatory getting to know the new npc things.

Then we test it out consuming those two souls. What do we spend the TW on? Some suggestions:

*Reverse the Soul force downgrade Saulanna had to endure to create the Time Deva.
*Possibly upgrade Saulanna's and/or Wordblood's soul force further, if we can afford it. (I'd love to get Wordblood far enough along that he develops his own pool of Word Points, so we don't have to fuel him with Moon Points. He did hint that could happen once he's strong enough).
*Upgrade Wordblood in some way to be more useful in the next social battle (we should brainstorm possible passive or active powers, and/or see if he has any suggests). Possibly more than once- he has some serious untapped potential.
*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on.
*Increase beauty.
*Possibly make some kind of time power? Although, I suspect we won't be able to immediately.
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No. 63746 ID: 9b155d

>>63745
>*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on.

That's part of the process of making it. Or at least, part of the process Wordblood suggested for making it. He actually listed out how much each portion of the process would cost in Titan's Will. Also, it was Ease and Efficiency.
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No. 63748 ID: 63f851

>>63745
"*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on."
>>/quest/409526
That's gonna cost us one TW, but we're already committed to spending as much. Note that we've already upgraded to Soul Force 3, so it's only going to cost us 4 TW to do the whole shebang. And pain, don't forget the pain. Really would help to have some way to reduce the pain.
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No. 63749 ID: 70acd0

>>63736
Power Words are only currently able to be used one at a time (with only STOP in our available right now), but why wouldn't it be possible to upgrade this to be able to string multiple words together, add modifiers, etc?
It's already an ability that is practically unknown to others, making it a potent wild card to be able to pull out. Why branch out into a field that many others know how to deal with when we can instead further develop the one we have?

>>63738
Element: Magic + Purpose: Growth
That would likely end up stepping on the toes of Luna, while also being a bit of an unstable combination. Kind of the magical equivalent of Chernobyl waiting to happen. I generally think of magic as being inherently unstable though, so may be over-estimating how unstable it would actually be.

A stealth soul of masks also sounds quite appealing, though I do wonder if it might work better as a social soul. The stealth trick of masking our presence would still be possible ("nah, that's not who we're looking for"), but would also open up other uses.
Combat situation? Put on the scary mask.
Accused of horrific crimes? Put on the innocent mask.
Need something from someone? Time for the raccoon kit eyes.
Would potentially also assist with the manifestation of other souls by wearing them as a mask externally.
The biggest problem with this would be avoiding the development of a multiple personality disorder. Would also need to be careful of Saulanna loosing herself to the roles. Developing Saulanna's will and helping her to find a good motivation would greatly offset those risks though.
Overall, the element of masks is just too much of a romantic concept to pass up.

>>63745
Sounds like a reasonable plan of action to me.
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No. 63750 ID: cd4189

>>63749

For Magic and Growth....well, yeah, it could go bad. We might need the power soon though.

As for Masks, I admit, it's an interesting idea. Although we could substitute Masks for the broader Artifice. Or use Artifice as a Purpose? Artifice seems more like an Element, honestly.

I will admit that Masks has an acceptable amount of versatility. I could go for them. After other, more important souls. Er....damn it, is Wordblood Communication? I can't recall. Masks with purpose of Communication is a decent one. But if we can swing Artifice as a purpose, Masks being how we use devices to communicate or effect the world around us, that could be nice.

Oh yeah, and on Judgement? Maybe we should make it a Noble Soul for Saulanna, to cement her position as Queen. Make her judgements and edicts absolute, especially to the other Devas.
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No. 63752 ID: fb9917

>>58813
But with a stealth soul we could totally get away with eating a God or elemental! Just hide the telltale signs of eating by masking them with any one of the dozens of spirit-murdering powers.

>>63749
Wordblood already does a pretty good job at the social combat thing, we are just outmatched by Akatrina because she has had more than like...one day to practice this. And if we do make a dedicated social combat deva, we have to be really careful that we don't make one who will fight Saulanna for control.

Also usually the way you deal with Sorcery is with more Sorcery.
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No. 63753 ID: 70acd0

>>63750
I'd rate improving finesse type abilities higher than rapidly gaining raw magical power. Less likely to make enemies we can't afford that way.

I think Artifice might be a bit too removed from the more animalistic nature of our Lunar hero soul. This would also bring to the forefront at least one of the competencies that did not sit well with Saulanna. +20 Nightmares is enough for now.

Element: Mask + Purpose: Social (or something similar) would possibly allow for using masks for remote comms. Sort of an advanced ventriloquism act. Regardless of how that ability would be pulled off though it would be pretty creepy...

Judgement as a noble soul for Saulanna sounds like it could work well, though possibly a little draconian (and not in the "dragons are cool" manner).
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No. 63755 ID: cee89f

>>63753
Wordblood can already be used as a Social Deva, we don't need two. Personally I'd suggest Secrets or Stealth as purposes for a Mask element, maybe even an Attack deva. (Warfare is mostly deception after all)
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No. 63756 ID: 38cd76

Artifice might work well, Luna is a trickster god after all. But better than artifice is ingenuity, which also suits our personality and talents.

Artifice is a little too close to deception for my taste, which is the domain of the Dragon's Shadow.

I add my weight to the opinion that we don't need another Social Deva, Wordblood has been pretty kind to us so far. We should just have a Secrets or Stealth Deva of Masks. I like the idea of a Secrets purpose deva, though Secrets would also be an interesting element for something.
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No. 63759 ID: cd4189

All points taken on Artifice. Still something to keep on our radar.

Perhaps an Element of Secrets, with a Purpose of Finding/Discovery? If someone wants to hide something, we'll get insight in ferreting it out.

Ingenuity is also pretty good. I could role with that. If not a Lord, a Noble is good.
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No. 63760 ID: 38cd76

Maybe we'll just make ingenuity one of our nobles. We could do the same with masks too, but that might take a while.


As far as secrets go... an element of secrets, with a purpose of finding... that seems like it would be trying to find things by using secrets, which seems odd to me.
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No. 63761 ID: 70acd0

Good point regarding Wordblood already filling our immediate need for a social Diva.

The idea of a Mask element Diva with the purpose of Secrets has given me the mental image of "Super Magical Raccoon Theif Saulanna" though. Not sure if that's awesome, over the top, or both...
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No. 63767 ID: 38cd76

Well, we WERE a Thief/Treasure Hunter before we exalted.

Make of that what you will.

:D
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No. 63777 ID: b978d0

Well, just realized that Saulanna already has dominion over maskdom (at least in part) as per her Mask Sneak ability. So that would put a bit of a damper on creating a Mask element Diva I think, especially given that that ability is part of her Lunar powers. Don't really understand enough right now to risk messing with her exaltation.
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No. 63778 ID: 70c0f2

>>63777
I wouldn't think that would be a problem. For instance, we already had access to some degree of time distortion (we paused in the middle of the social battle to retreat to our inner world to consider option and consult with Wordblood) but that didn't restrict us from making a time Deva.

We would be hard pressed to come up with elements that don't in some way overlap with some part of our Lunar powers, as we advance, anyways.
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No. 63779 ID: cee89f

>>63777
>>63778
As i understand it, Titans already have control over every aspect of reality, if we focus enough of our power. Devas make our control... easier, stronger, more defined, more absolute, however you wanna put it. Heck, the fact we have a Raccoon Lunar Exaltation might just make the Mask Deva stronger.

As an example Titan with enough power could probably do that mental suggestion thing Wordblood was talking about without a communication Deva - it would just be much more difficult.
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No. 63780 ID: b978d0

>>63778
>>63779
Good points. Overlap is inevitable with the breadth of possibilities covered by the Lunar exaltation. If the nature of the overlap is positive reinforcement, then that probably would be for the better.
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No. 63789 ID: 38cd76

Honestly, a Deva of Masks just sounds really freakin' cool.

I was thinking, and we should probably save all of Wordblood's former devas for him to make nobles out of, unless we feel a pressing desire. But Masks... that sounds pretty cool.

What would a deva with like... a purpose of being a repository for knowledge and/or resources be properly called? Or is the feeder for storing away as well as managing? In which case, do we need a seperate one for bits of knowledge and such, or should we just manage au natural?

I think I like the idea. The seeing soul and wordblood could interface with it directly, and just keep us informed of things really important. We could really make a pretty efficient system.

It'd be like the RAM for our CPU. (We're the CPU.)

Potential elements: Memory (of course), Secrets, Fate (benefits with few drawbacks, in a this sort of deva.), Elsewhere, Music (why not? It could sing you a story!), hm... what else...
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No. 63790 ID: 1752c2

Or we could just make a Deva of Masks be one of Saulanna's Noble Souls. We want these traits to apply to Saulanna, yes? I'm not sure how well Masks will tie in to our overall theme. It boosts Saulanna nicely, yes. It dovetails very well with her shapeshiftering, her ability to take on different roles as the situation demands.

I'm just not sure we want it to be a Lord Deva, the foundation of our existence. Part of being defined by Masks is wearing them. We might ALWAYS end up wearing a Mask. That's...not as desirable. It doesn't leave out being truthful, but it means we'll never act naturally. We'll always be playing a role, a part. It's artifice and while the artist puts more of themselves in their work than they think, it means our true self is only glimpsed through the Mask.

If we go Mask route, people will not be inclined to trust us as much. Sure, the Element of Truth encourages honesty and Masks means selectively using that honesty, but it's a minor conflict in our nature. We sure we want that as part of our fundamental nature?

A Noble Soul of Masks to Saulanna seems safer. Augments HER nature, but not our overall nature. We wear the Mask, but we are not the Mask. We can still take it off, if we choose to.
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No. 63796 ID: 38cd76

Eh, no matter how honest a person says they are, everyone always wears masks anyways. It's part of our nature as social and cultural beings. That would potentially make the Masks deva particularly influential. I don't see how it would cause people to distrust us, any more than they already distrust one another.

Plus, wordblood said we probably wont be getting nobles for a while.
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No. 63814 ID: cee89f

.... soooooo apparently it takes a while to get an account for the wiki. Gonna be a while for that list, guys. Anyone else wanna do it instead?
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No. 63815 ID: cd4189

Our Lord Souls are the foundations of our very being. Do we really want to define ourselves by utilizing Masks? People wearing a Mask might be very common, but if we go Lord Deva, we'll never STOP wearing a Mask. It'll be a fundamental part of our being.

People will definitely distrust us more, because normally it'd be believed that we can be sincere and honest, or very close to it. With a Mask? No, we'll always be playing a part and everyone will be suspicious of our agenda. An element of deception will be tied into our very fundamental nature.

If we go Noble Soul, our Mask is subordinate to a Lord. It's a big aspect of us, but it doesn't DEFINE us. Not to the same extent as a Lord. I'm more comfortable with this option. Plus, can't say I very much like the themes Mask offers. Just not how I'd like Saulanna to develop. I guess it just doesn't feel Primordial enough to me.
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No. 63816 ID: 70c0f2

>>63814
I'd suggest just making a request in the wiki thread, unless you want to wait a week or more.

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/meep/res/364.html

>Mask, Lord or Noble
I don't really think we know enough about the functional distinction between a Lord Deva and Saulanna noble Deva to discuss the pros and cons of sticking a particular element in either location. I also wouldn't presume too much in detail about the exact weakness or advantages or a particular element until we run it past Wordblood.
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No. 63818 ID: cd4189

>I don't really think we know enough about the functional distinction between a Lord Deva and Saulanna noble Deva to discuss the pros and cons of sticking a particular element in either location. I also wouldn't presume too much in detail about the exact weakness or advantages or a particular element until we run it past Wordblood.

While true, even asking Wordblood about elements doesn't have him speculating as to the impact on our personality. Just the practical benefits. So at very least personality speculation is valid.
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No. 63837 ID: cee89f

Okay, List is there now.

http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest

Putting it in alphabetical order took longer than it should have. Any others anyone would like me to add?
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No. 63841 ID: 70c0f2

>>63837
Maybe you should denote which ones we thought might work better as a Noble, rather than a Lord?
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No. 63849 ID: cee89f

>>63841
That's just wild speculation until we understand the difference between Noble and Lord devas a bit better.
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No. 63850 ID: 70c0f2

In the case of masks, sure. But we had several elements that we felt worked better as nobles for Wordblood than separate Lords, because they might otherwise edge too close to his domain (knowledge, law, math).
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No. 63851 ID: b260d1

I'm thinking a Lord Deva with an element of 'Reproduction' and a purpose of 'Dongchampion' would be pretty sweet. Think of the possibilities.
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No. 63854 ID: cee89f

>>63851
........... Oh right, i forgot, this is tgchan -_-

>>63850
No, it's ALL wild speculation. Deva applies to all circles of souls anyway, so that list can go for Nobles or Lords or even Commoners (assuming those guys have elements too)

Also i'm lazy and don't wanna dig through all of this again =p
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No. 63855 ID: cd4189

Actually, Reproduction could be a potential Noble or Commoner Element to a Deva of Life with the Purpose of Creation. Lunars can reproduce to make Beastmen, yes? Imagine how insane the children we spawn could be if we go in that direction. Do it as a man for lots at once, woman for more personal touches, and use Time to speed up the process.

It's an interesting line of thought. Not one I'm in any hurry to pursue, but it DOES dovetail into pre-existing aspects of the Quest.
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No. 63864 ID: cee89f

... darnnit, I'm still thinking about the Masked Heroes idea. Rebirth Deva's associated caste would be the Phoenix Caste. We could also name each particular caste as 'Lord' for shorthand and establish a theme of mythological creatures and concepts for the caste names. Time Lord (caste?), Phoenix Lord (caste?)

A thought which is doubly annoying, because I don't know for sure if we'll actually MAKE a rebirth deva >.>

>>63855
Saulanna won't accept sexual commands unless her arousal is high enough, which tells me this plan would be short-lived if it worked at all.

... I think I should shut up for a while >.>
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No. 63870 ID: cd4189

>>63864

I don't really like the Masked Heroes idea, truth be told. If we got Exalted, I do like the idea of our Exalted being reborn, like we were. It's an interesting idea. Maybe we can make an alternate Lunar caste. The Solars are already divided enough.

But styling ourselves so that we represent Masked Heroes? I just don't like it. We're a Primordial, a world creator. We are not the police, internal security. We have people for that. Or we SHOULD. Everyone else has people if we don't.

I just don't like us being styled as a hero. I don't like it as a fundamental of our existence, because we will be defined by Heroism. Nice and dramatic, but what about when we're not in active conflict?

Heroics does not make for a good Titan, I believe. I prefer something more primordial. We're the underpinnings of the world, we are not 'people' ourselves. We're more than that. Let's not style ourselves after single, relatively solitary heroes who only appear during trouble. Let's just BE. Less mortal antics, more immortal eldritch being.

As for her not accepting sexual commands? Well, if she's partly defined by Reproduction, I think we'll suddenly find her more pliable.
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No. 63874 ID: cee89f

>>63870
It's just a name. =p 'Masked Heroes' has a nice ring to it, and it stems both from the fact that the Hero is reborn so even THEY don't know who they originally were, and because of the little black mask saulanna has that I was hoping would pass on to her exalts.

You don't have to be heroic to be Exalted.

After all... If i remember correctly, Green Sun Princes (Hell Heroes) get power from being sufficiently evil to be considered "a B-grade movie villain." Hardly heroic.

>Let's not style ourselves after single, relatively solitary heroes who only appear during trouble. Let's just BE. Less mortal antics, more immortal eldritch being.

Defining our exalts and defining Saulanna as a Titan are two completely different things. When I think 'Gaia' I do not think 'Warrior who uses the elements as part of her fighting style' i think 'mother of all life'. When I think Luna, I don't think 'chaotic being defined largely by it's attachment to another and a connection to chaos and the moon phases' I think 'GODDESS OF THE MOON'... When I think 'Unconquered Sun', I don't think 'Paladin-Sage-Priest powered by virtue', I think-... Okay, maybe that's a bad example.

My point is that we can have Exalts without being defined by them. Even if we were, we've got enough gods and titans who are too self-absorbed to care about the rest of the universe anyway. Let's try and actually GIVE A FLYING FUCK

>As for her not accepting sexual commands? Well, if she's partly defined by Reproduction, I think we'll suddenly find her more pliable.

Putting aside the VERY creepy undertones of that argument, how would we get her to agree to that?

"Hi Saulanna, wanna have a soul of reproduction?"
"...Why?"
"So you can be a baby-making machine for a war engine, thus allowing us copious opportunities for fanservice?"
"Go to Malfeas."
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No. 63887 ID: 38cd76

Well, something does need to define saulana as unique. I like masks. Wordblood had blood as his weird thing as a primordial, we can have masks.

Masks are a lot more versatile than just 'hiding your true self', some people can argue that that some masks help ACCENTUATE the truth.

Theater performers are also big on masks.

Even make up and beauty, are largely revolving around the concept of a mask. People mask their scents with deodorants and soaps, people mask their thoughts by being POLITE rather than telling your girlfriend that YES that dress makes her look fat. Masks is a very versatile subject INHERENT and ESSENTIAL to humanity, and even if it does become part of our nature, does not have all of these negative connotations that you try to attach to it.

Conversely, I'm not too big a fan of the "reproduction" idea. and I find rebirth as an element both limited, and tedious. Though as a healing deva, I think it has some potential.

Really, I'm not sure how you can think of Rebirth as an elemental concept worthy of a Primordial, but not Masks, which is so much more broadly sweeping and inherent.

Plus, it fits with our Raccoon nature quite charmingly.


I was also thinking recently... I think something along the lines of "speed" or "velocity" could also make a good noble for our Time Deva. How do you define it after all? Distance over time.
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No. 63888 ID: cd4189

>>63874

Honestly? I'd rather explore Saulanna drifting from humanity and embracing her Titanic potential than become a more standard hero. Giving a flying fuck, good. Still think Masks as our Lord Soul is a mistake because we will be defined by our Mask. It's the foundation of our being. It's....artificial.

Sure, we can use it to accentuate the truth. I've admitted that myself. But it means we're always hiding SOMETHING. If we are a Mask, then no matter what our expressions are artificial to a certain extent. Moreso than what is normal.

I'm probably not going to be comfortable with the Mask element until we hear about it more from Wordblood. Even then, I think it will have an undesirable effect on Saulanna's psyche and modes of expression.

>Putting aside the VERY creepy undertones of that argument, how would we get her to agree to that?

Actually, if she had a Life Lord soul of Creation? I'd wager much more favorable odds that she won't be averse to creating life in that manner. It'll be part of who she is to an extent already. This would just be a different form of creating life, instead of from essentially nothing.

Of course, traditional methods may be too SLOW for a Titan. If she's out to create life, there will probably be multiple avenues open to her.

>>63887

I am well aware of all of this, with regards to Masks. And I still don't like the idea of it. Yes, masking ourselves can be very important. But so is being able to take that Mask off. If we make ourselves a Lord Mask soul? I don't think we ever will. Not really. So we'll actually be less trustworthy for it. A Noble soul that accentuates our personality instead of defining the foundations of our being like a Lord, maybe. A Lord, not interested.

As for Masks being inherent, I disagree. I consider them a social construct, and one nearly as....primordial, I suppose? As words. Masks are just a layer, hiding something else. Whatever their purpose, they're not supposed to be more than temporarily. It's rooted in deception, misdirection. A lie can be used to tell the truth, sure, but I don't really care for the potential implications.

I like Rebirth because it's what happened to us. We were reborn, it's a concept very close to Saulanna's life. And rebirth means that there's an element of recreating ourselves, being born again. A lack of stagnancy and element of change, for better or for worse. I like that idea. Second chances and all that. I think it's a more interesting idea to explore than Masks.

Everyone has their opinions. I won't begrudge you yours, I just don't agree with it.
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No. 63890 ID: fb9917

>>63887
Having studied psychology a lot because all my other university classes were REALLY BORING, I think it could actually be argued that there is no 'true self', just slightly more honest masks. It really is a very integral part of how humans interact with eachother. Without it I don't know if anything would ever get done. I also am not really feeling Rebirth, although I'm not sure that's because of the element or just because I don't like where Hymn is going with it.

Also lets not try and spawn an army the Lunar way, please, plenty of ways to build an army without fucking a bunch of raccoons.
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No. 63891 ID: cee89f

>>63888
People ALREADY wear masks at all times - they're called 'personas' and they are central to how humans interact with each other, and from the looks of it, even how the gods in exalted act around each other.

Psychology was a very enjoyable class in high school and IS enjoyable in college =3

Don't wanna get into the specifics so here's the quick version: where you are and who you're with determines in large part what you're willing to say and do. You're not necessarily being less honest, you're just... emphasizing different parts. If you have a job, you're going to act differently there than you do, say, with close friends. You wouldn't insult a customer (even jokingly) because that's not something you do at a job. Your friends, on the other hand, you'll tease to no end because they're your friends and that's what friends do. Mess with each other.

Making yourself look intimidating, telling jokes to lighten the mood, showing courage in the face of terror... all personas, none of them lies, and all things we might have to do at some point.

Personas are inherently mask-like, but they're not lies - they just are.

Also, that's Psychology 101 - not really an opinion. THIS is an opinion:

>Reproduction
NO. NEVER. I am NOT supporting this. This is sick, dumb, and a transparent attempt at getting Saulanna into fanservice. You can't say 'well this will influence her personality in entirely negative ways' then completely ignore the negative effects of Reproduction as a deva, Noble or Lord! Oh wait, that's right. You don't see any problem with Saulanna in a constant state of 'fuck me now', do ya? -_- Why not just come out and say 'i want to brainwash the character into a total slut'?!

>>63887
Peregrin noted it would be limited, and Wordblood's response is that it would work well for a healing soul... which makes sense, putting someone back at full health can be done through a form of rebirth and injuries occur all the time.
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No. 63893 ID: 38cd76

It should be noted that masks are not a solely human thing, though the ways animals represent themselves is much more simplistic than creatures wither higher thought and social functions. The fae exist in creation on a basis of masks too.

We should keep in mind that while there is some bleedthrough, the devas do also retain distinct personality from saulana.

Also, what do you guys think of taking peregrins soul into ourself, as per the first quest. I get the impression he'd still be mostly autonomous, just much more in tune. His loyalty would also be even more assured than it is now. But he'd also be inside of us, much like wordblood is.
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No. 63895 ID: cd4189

>NO. NEVER. I am NOT supporting this. This is sick, dumb, and a transparent attempt at getting Saulanna into fanservice. You can't say 'well this will influence her personality in entirely negative ways' then completely ignore the negative effects of Reproduction as a deva, Noble or Lord! Oh wait, that's right. You don't see any problem with Saulanna in a constant state of 'fuck me now', do ya? -_- Why not just come out and say 'i want to brainwash the character into a total slut'?!

I'll thank you kindly to keep your assumptions on perversion to yourself because fanservice never crossed my mind. OR turning Saulanna into a slut, as you put it.

That is the honest to God truth, by the way. I never ONCE considered the idea of the acts being drawn. I just thought, "Hey, Beastmen exist. Reproduction Element. Hmm. What would be the logical conclusion here...."

So if this was sick, dumb, transperent attempt at fanservice....well you totally misread my motives. No masks with me here. My motives for the Reproduction Element were EXACTLY what I professed them to be. Curiosity and speculation of the possible implications.

And while everyone's chipping in to show off their Psychology knowledge, you guys aren't the only one who took those classes in college. I'm aware of all these facts already. But perhaps I can illustrate my point a different way, since you've jogged my memory on one thing.

Personas, you call them a different mask, yes? But a persona is a construct of the mind and nothing else. A mask has connotations with the artificial, something you wear. That's part of the reason why you like it. But there's a difference between acting different according to circumstance in a relatively normal human fashion and....well, wearing a Mask.

Just because people all do it to some extent doesn't mean that part of our nature being Masks won't make people distrust us. Hell, we even have gut instincts towards things that are too different. We can argue that what we'd do isn't that different from what people normally do, and intellectually we may even convince them. Maybe emotionally too.

But I don't think people will trust us very much, if they become aware that one of the foundations of our being is Masks. They'll always be wondering what our agenda is. Yes, they should probably be wondering that in any case, but I think Masks will prejudice them even more.
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No. 63896 ID: 38cd76

I think we're beginning to be a little too heated here.

In any case, I disagree fundamentally that masks are purely an artificial construct that people wear to hide. Thus is clearly not the case, as even with physical masks there are times the masks do not intend to hide anything, but are purely ornamental, to accentuate what is already seen.

There is also another exalted example besides fae that rely on masks for their very survival and function in creation, that being the sidereal exalted, who cannot interract with people PERIOD without a finely crafted mask.

Also, theres no reason for people to know about our mask soul unless we tell them. The best mask is one that noone can tell is there.
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No. 63897 ID: fb9917

>>63895
...why would we ever tell anyone that information, exactly?
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No. 63898 ID: cee89f

>>63895
The original suggestion of Reproduction as an element included the purpose of 'dongchampion'. And you seemed to be in full support of the idea. Excuse me for presuming, it's perfectly plausible you ignored the purpose and only thought of the practical benefits of the element, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

It's still DUMB.

I don't know if gesgation periods have changed in creation (i vaguely recall that they are longer than real world) but I'd wager good money that they're still relatively long periods of time. Even if we assume that the Time deva could make it go faster without any risk to the mother or the child (i doubt it - this is a FEEDING deva) it'd still be a bloody long while. Time that would be better spent gaining and using TW to make the people and things we want.

Any reproduction we could do by screwing we could do faster, easier and probably more efficiently with TW.

What I find really odd about your argument, though, is that you wanted Saulanna to DISTANCE herself from mortal affairs. I disagree, but how would having children (presumably mortal, even if they were beatmen, children) help Saulanna seem like a primordial titan on high?
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No. 63900 ID: cd4189

>>63896

Even I wouldn't say masks are a purely artificial construct to deceive. They do have many other potential uses. I would, however, argue that they have heavy connotations of....hmm, artificiality yes, but for the most part Masks are made with a specific purpose in mind. The use of a mask is calculated to achieve an effect.

Does that make more sense to you?

>>63897

Who says we'll be able to hide it? At the moment I'm reasonably certain a certain Death Hero has gotten a pretty good sense of our capabilities from a handshake. Who says that won't happen to us again? That people won't be able to recognize our Masks from ways besides us telling them outright?

Although it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you, or will be out to get you if they were aware of certain facts.

Plus, people may be able to see into our Inner World. Not that far of a stretch.

I don't think we'll be able to conceal our Lords just by not telling people about them. We are in a world of extraordinarily competent people. Let's give them their due credit and treat them with appropriate wariness and possibly paranoia.

>>63898

Apology accepted. I am still pretty annoyed, but I would like to try to bury said annoyance. I'll do my best to be civil until I do.

I don't how you got the idea that I fully supported the troll though, since I saw Element Dongcopter with Purpose of Reproduction (You got it backwards btw), and went on to speculate the uses of a Reproduction Element under the dominion of a Life Element with the Purpose of Creation. That was already on the table, from Wordblood himself. I just imagined an extension of that, because there are many ways to create life. The traditional reproduction is the most common, and I found it worth considering its relation to Life.

Also, I was immensely amused by taking the troll bait and turning it into something viable. Not very provocative when you can dismantle it and find something useful to us, is it?

>What I find really odd about your argument, though, is that you wanted Saulanna to DISTANCE herself from mortal affairs. I disagree, but how would having children (presumably mortal, even if they were beatmen, children) help Saulanna seem like a primordial titan on high?

....Uh, really?

Goddess of life, mother to all? A bit like Gaia? Possibly the creator of an entirely new race of beings? Unless we plan on having all our life spontaneously pop into existence or burst from our skull Athena style (both well within the range of possibilities), using traditional methods may be desirable.

Plus, yeah, Titan's Will will probably do the job FASTER. I imagine traditional methods being a bit more like producing supersoldiers or more powerful beings. Those that don't go skull-buster, at least.

Also, IIRC gestation periods in Exalted are longer than normal gestation times. An extra three months, I think?
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No. 63903 ID: cee89f

>I don't how you got the idea that I fully supported the troll though, since I saw Element Dongcopter with Purpose of Reproduction (You got it backwards, btw)
>I'm thinking a Lord Deva with an element of 'Reproduction' and a purpose of 'Dongchampion' would be pretty sweet.

=p

>>63900
Yes, but the problem is that reproduction, but it's own nature, doesn't create a new species. Mating between Lunars and mortals makes beastmen, but as I understand it that's not so much a new species as a half-warform half-human.

When i think Gaia, i don't think 'Gaia had thirteen sons and fourteen daughters' i think 'life can't help but spring up where she walks'. Creating a new race? That's primordial. Having beastmen kids who you selectively breed into fighting machines? Not so much.

I assumed we would create new races as mythological gods tend to do: make a group of them from sheer willpower, then say 'go make babies' and then they do so.
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No. 63905 ID: cd4189

>>63903

Dah. Okay, I apparently derped twice.

As for reproduction not making its own species? I'll bet against that and I'll throw in that fanservice you accused me of pursuing. ^_^

Saulanna. Luna. Shapeshifter sex. Together give birth to a new race with characteristics of Lunars, whatever Titanic add-ons we throw in, and Luna.

Tell me that would not be FUCKING AWESOME.

My idea isn't us, "We make Beastmen babies." That's for bog-standard Lunars who don't have command line access to reality. They have to make do with what they got. WE get to branch out in new directions. Beastmen are just proof that this is possible because if Lunars can pull it off, then we oughta be able to blow them out of the water.

Also, mythological gods do not tend to make life from pure ether. They usually sculpt them out of existing materials (although depending on the creation myth, they may have created the raw materials too. Like Christianity. Less so with, say, Greek gods). Dirt, mud, other creatures, make them from pieces of the gods themselves. Not necessarily body parts either. For Christianity, the breath of life.

Creation myth and the birth of entire species are much more exciting than you describe them. Particularly when humanity is involved. We LOVE to have special creation myths for ourselves. :p
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No. 63906 ID: 34d817

You guys are talking about beastmen... that might be what we'd get if Saulanna had kids right now, but we shouldn't be doing that right now, when we have relatively low soul force and aren't in a safe position. Once we grow a little what will matter is that we're a titan, and when titans have kids those kids are far more impressive than mere beastmen. Many of the behemoths are children of the titans. Adorjan's daughters are the winds of Malfeas; Kimbery breeds up monstrous horrors of unspeakable nastiness and power as a core part of her theme. A titans' children are beings of extreme power which can shape the world as legendary figures in their own right, just as their lord souls are.

So this whole discussion is really a bit premature. When we've got our soul force up in the 10-12 range with multiple Lord devas just as strong it might be time to consider building ourselves some super-kids; not before. Until then not only would they be relatively weak, but we wouldn't be strong enough to protect them.

>>63900
>Also, IIRC gestation periods in Exalted are longer than normal gestation times. An extra three months, I think?
I believe it's nine months for humans and fifteen months for Exalted, but I would want to confirm.
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No. 63907 ID: cd4189

>So this whole discussion is really a bit premature. When we've got our soul force up in the 10-12 range with multiple Lord devas just as strong it might be time to consider building ourselves some super-kids; not before. Until then not only would they be relatively weak, but we wouldn't be strong enough to protect them.

Oh I agree. I agree COMPLETELY. This is all very, very far ahead speculation. We're already discussing future Devas though. This is just speculating even further ahead.

Not because it's practical, but because it's FUN. :p

And yeah. Beastmen are totally beneath us. Like I said, that's Lunar working with what they've got. We've got a toolkit they can't even comprehend, and once we get strong enough.....ohohohohooooo.

Making the children purely from us would work fine. Good for armies. But potential children have more practical uses than our defenders.

And yes, if we're being moral and human we should worry about every single one. I like focusing more on the creation of a race though.

Still, children have also been used to seal alliances. Marriages and children between rival nations, that sort of stuff.

So perhaps as a....treaty, with the gods, a sign of good faith? Child with Luna. It's who we're affiliated with. Luna will likely exert influence over the child as well, and if we prove that we genuinely care for the tyke we look better. And have a child and potential heir. Proof of cooperation between Incarnae and Titans. Something NEW.

Yeah....yeah I REALLY like this idea and potential scenarios it opens up. This sounds downright fascinating to me. To each their own, others might not agree and by all mean do not have to, but man does this sound interesting.

It would be a step towards getting into the good graces of the Incarnae, and possibly some protection. Some really good protection. But convincing them that this is a good idea.....THAT is the tricky part. They'd have to know what we are and agree to allow us to continue to exist.

On the plus side, the child idea really might help this fly while we're weak. Luna can still kick our ass alone, never mind everyone else. Well, geas aside. But they still have entire armies of Exalted to beat the every living shit out of us if we betray them, so enlightened self interest covers a lot. So the gods can be fairly certain of our intentions.

Might social-magic us into some undesirable things though. That would suck. We should probably find a patron to side with us. Maybe Gaia. If she approves of this (and maybe she won't, maybe she'll get annoyed with us for muscling too far on her territory in more ways than one), that could give us the leverage we need. Luna plays Father, we play Mother, and if it all works we have an alliance sealed with a child.

....Yeah, definitely an interesting idea to me.
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No. 63908 ID: 9b155d

>Masks
Have some Exalted canon.

>The Mask is a constellation in The House of Secrets. It is damaged. The Sidereals twisted it to create Arcane Fate to cover up their part of the Usurpation. It represents secret wisdom and things known but concealed. It is correlated with secrets, lies, security services, guarded individuals, religious worship, extortion, and trickery. It is associated with the Stealth Ability.

Arguments regarding the Primordial nature of masks should take this into account.

>Yes, but the problem is that reproduction, but it's own nature, doesn't create a new species.

Depends on what you consider a new species. Behemoths in Exalted differ so wildly I wouldn't say they're a species as much as a class of being, and Kashta makes lots of unique Behemoths the old fashioned way.
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No. 63909 ID: 70c0f2

>>63908
...wait. The siderals damaged the very concept of masks to create fate? So... if we make masks our domain, that potentially gives us a direct line of control over fate. Or hell, long term we could restore the damage and overturn the concept of fate. That's fantastic!

And that list of representations and correlations sounds fantastic. Stealth, knowledge, secrets, trickery, etc- those are all things we want Saulannna to be good at! (And have considered separate Devas for, in fact).

I think we've found a winner here.

>Enthusiastic reproductive ideas
...is no one else a little squicked out by this?
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No. 63910 ID: cd4189

>The Mask is a constellation in The House of Secrets. It is damaged. The Sidereals twisted it to create Arcane Fate to cover up their part of the Usurpation. It represents secret wisdom and things known but concealed. It is correlated with secrets, lies, security services, guarded individuals, religious worship, extortion, and trickery. It is associated with the Stealth Ability.

....Whelp, on one hand we now know that this is very well suited to the Stealth ability. It may very well help us conceal our Titanic identity. On the other hand, Akatrina already probably knows about us, so that information will shortly be in the Dragon's Shadow's hands. I'd really, REALLY rather not have a Deva heavily associated with Deception, and therefore the Dragon, if we plan to utilize our abilities to conceal our Titanic nature. He can do enormous damage to our reputation and blackmail us with potential use of this knowledge if we plan on trying to hide our Mask nature.

Hell, we could be horribly discredited even if we don't hide it. People may wonder what secrets we're hiding. If we're an unknown quantity capable of concealing important secrets, they'll want to KNOW our secrets.

...Yeah, until we get strong? We have our greatest safety in obscurity or being a known quantity. If we're known, they won't fear us as much. If we're unknown, they need to be very, very wary with us in case we're hiding something important.

That said, if we go Mask Stealth soul, and we DON'T let it be used as leverage against us? Especially the Sidereals, because while potent this noses in on their domain? I'd be more open to it. It is still really dangerous and I'm not sure I like how it will affect Saulanna's personality. The talents are great though, and if that carries over to Lunar Quest (not a guarantee, especially with five more Maidens in play) then I'd consider it. It IS a very tempting carrot, I must admit.

But if we really do pose such a threat to Fate and Sidereals, they are going to hunt us down and kill us with extreme prejudice. We are too dangerous to be allowed to exist. We could get too much power over them.

So...tempting, more than I thought, but still quite dangerous in more ways than we thought.

>...is no one else a little squicked out by this?

Hey, how often do you get to play as the potential creator of a new race? A new race with personality, unique characteristics, that's not essentially a Sim game?

The novelty appeals to me.
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No. 63911 ID: cee89f

>>63905
It would not be fucking awesome. It would be dumb. And would not make a race. Just a bunch of OTHER superpowered jackasses who would probably seem a lot like the Dragon-blooded to ordinary people.

>My idea isn't us, "We make Beastmen babies." That's for bog-standard Lunars who don't have command line access to reality.

if we have command-line access to reality and don't want to get the natural result of a Lunar fucking WHY DO WE NEED TO FUCK

>Also, mythological gods do not tend to make life from pure ether. They usually sculpt them out of existing materials (although depending on the creation myth, they may have created the raw materials too. Like Christianity. Less so with, say, Greek gods). Dirt, mud, other creatures, make them from pieces of the gods themselves. Not necessarily body parts either. For Christianity, the breath of life.
First of all, the christian god made man from dirt. Second, THE POINT was the lack of FUCKING!! God didn't screw an angel to make humans, he just put the dirt in place and said 'do it'.

>Child of Luna
........... Let me get this straight.

You want to ask the UCS - embodiment of virtue and more importantly LAW - to let you use his wife (also YOUR MOTHER) for the sole purpose of making a child.

You expect the goddess of chaos, who was in love with Gaia to the degree that (according to someone who i believe was actually in this quest) she ran out into the wyld and put signs up saying 'have you seen this primordial', to go along with this plan.

You want to have sex with your SPIRITUAL MOTHER. THE ONLY FIGURE YOU CAN ACTUALLY REFER TO AS 'MOTHER' SINCE YOU LOST YOUR NAME, WHO LITERALLY CRAFTED YOU AN IDENTITY FROM NOTHING

You expect the fact that the gods MUST obey their Geas to have no ethical repercussions on such an arrangement, nor to actually be a question brought up when presented, assuming SOl doesn't just have one of his exalted kill you on the spot for having the sheer incomprehensible gall to suggest it.

Pretty as Luna might be (I've got like eight reasons I wouldn't screw her but none of them are her fault) this plan is creepy and doomed to failure on so many levels. I'm having a hard time taking it seriously.

I mean, doing something for the gods' benefit as a sign of good faith? THAT is a good idea, and I'm behind it... but THIS?! This SPECIFIC plan?!

Are you SURE you don't just want an image of Saulanna and Luna doing it?!

...I think I'm going a little stir-crazy @_@
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No. 63912 ID: fb9917

>>63910
The whole point of a stealth soul is to hide things like that, though? I don't think Masks are associated closely enough to the Dragon's Shadow that he would be likely to notice us. The Sidereals MIGHT notice us but it wouldn't be because of the soul, it would be because they got lucky. Or because we did something to screw with fate itself which we should probably avoid until we get pretty powerful, similar to screwing around too much with time, except the Sidereals don't have access to a 'Loom of Time'. Also we should totally eat a Sidereal at some point. Or turn one into an akuma. Probably a third of the Sidereals are huge jerks, so it could totally be a moral, upright thing to do! And then we would have access to SUPER KUNG FU.
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No. 63913 ID: 70c0f2

>Kat already knows! TDS already knows!
Assumptions. She may or may not know yet, and even if she does, she may never get the opportunity to report back.

And even if TDS shadow learns who and what we are, stealth is not without it's advantages.

>Ahh, so many possible negative implications for masks!
I really think you're overrating, here. It's all in how it's interpreted or applied. There are easily as many positive implications, and the idea that we would stop having a 'true self' (trapped behind masks!), or that we'd be unable to ever tell the truth, or that people would automatically hate us for having secrets seems somewhat hysterical.

We don't know how any element will actually work until the GM says so (see Wordblood's last infodump. A lot of popular ideas suddenly looked bad, and time went from having one or two supporters to tons of em). I promise once we know how Masks would work- what the pros and cons actually are- we'll give them some thought. But for now, could we stop arguing about baseless assumptions? Several of us find the idea interesting, and we're not gonna stop that just because of what the worst case might be.

>Hey, how often do you get to play as the potential creator of a new race?
On tgchan? Fairly frequently, actually.

Honestly, I thought our plan was to improve the world, somehow? Recklessly creating a new race or races and dumping them into creation seems absurdly irresponsible, and likely to create more chaos and upheaval.
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No. 63915 ID: 34d817

>Discussion of Masks
Seems interesting and useful. I'm still hoping for a Lord soul with a purpose of something like "Protect me and mine" and a stealth-related element; Masks would serve admirably as the element there, I think. We'd have to make sure that the concept is fundamental enough, though; we've run into issues with "is that really that primordial" before and an argument could be made that Masks isn't.

>>63906
>I believe it's nine months for humans and fifteen months for Exalted, but I would want to confirm.
Have now confirmed, this is right.

Except that when you start bringing in the effects of special abilities, particularly titanic ones, this isn't a hard rule. Adorjan has a charm that can reduce the duration of almost whatever task she wants by 2^(Essence-1), for example, and as it explicitly includes pregnancy a 15-month gestation time becomes something like 21 hours for her. Given that we've got time as a core part of our identity now, we should be able to pull similar ridiculousness if we so choose- Adorjan does hers through a core concept of impatience/speed, I believe.
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No. 63916 ID: cd4189

>>63911
>It would not be fucking awesome. It would be dumb. And would not make a race. Just a bunch of OTHER superpowered jackasses who would probably seem a lot like the Dragon-blooded to ordinary people.

If you're going to just call them super-powered jackasses, then you might as well resign yourself to fact that anything we create will probably become a bunch of super-powered jackasses.

>if we have command-line access to reality and don't want to get the natural result of a Lunar fucking WHY DO WE NEED TO FUCK

If the Judeo-Christian God can do whatever he pleases, why did he make Eve from Adam's rib instead of just making her out of thin air?

For starters, it's a story, and people like symbology, metaphors, and familiar elements that help them relate to the characters. Practically, because I'd say something that is based in pre-existing reality is more likely to work. Sounds better. Make them out pieces of stuff or your own body, conventional methods are just a pre-existing method we alter to suit our desires.

Also, see above Exalted canon of people who conventionally birth super-powerful beings. Like Behemoths. Can't believe I forgot those.

>First of all, the christian god made man from dirt. Second, THE POINT was the lack of FUCKING!! God didn't screw an angel to make humans, he just put the dirt in place and said 'do it'.

First, yes. Didn't I say that myself? Or pretty close to saying it outright. Second, Christian God is not the only god out there in mythology. Take a look at Greek mythology sometime. Fucking galore there, lemme tell you.

>You want to ask the UCS - embodiment of virtue and more importantly LAW - to let you use his wife (also YOUR MOTHER) for the sole purpose of making a child.

Since when was Luna his wife? For starters, Luna doesn't have a single gender so the title of Wife is only going to be completely accurate half the time.

Also, last I checked Luna was GAIA'S consort.

Finally, since when is Luna our mother? We're just one of her champions. I don't recall us calling her our mother....I'd have to check.

Also, you seem to be assuming that this would be Step One. Ahahahahaaaaaaa.....hell fucking no. If this is step one, we're gonna die. This would be something to suggest AFTER we've already presented a lot of evidence that we're on the side of Creation. Something like this happens after both sides trust each other and are reasonably certain they can work together. The alliance through child is a way of sealing the deal.

Like, well, marriage between monarchies. Two of the family marry and produce child, everyone settles down more.

>Pretty as Luna might be (I've got like eight reasons I wouldn't screw her but none of them are her fault) this plan is creepy and doomed to failure on so many levels. I'm having a hard time taking it seriously.

If you're taking this as a stand-alone plan that be implemented as soon as possible instead of a final event that solidifies an alliance, I don't blame you.

>Are you SURE you don't just want an image of Saulanna and Luna doing it?!

Yes, actually. I'm vaguely intrigued by it, but mostly I'm in Mad Scientist mode and cackling inside my head at the possibilities if it succeeds.

>...I think I'm going a little stir-crazy @_@

You are reacting pretty strongly to this. Might want to take a break. That's what I do when I start getting to invested and emotional about online games. Step back, detach.

>>63912

Okay, as much as I like my plan? Even I can admit that it has many, many ways to go horribly wrong.

I think this plan is even more likely to get us killed. Fucking over the Sidereals, assuming they can't catch us (I'm not betting against that thankyouverymuch), eating their souls?

We eat any Exalted aligned with the Incarnae, we are gonna be on their shit list soooooooo fast.

>>63913

>Assumptions. She may or may not know yet, and even if she does, she may never get the opportunity to report back.

Hey now, I never put much stock in TGS knowing. Not unless Kat can telepathically send back that knowledge. Or is using this restroom break to do so.

....Okay, more likely than I thought five minutes ago. I'm still going to plan as if she does, and hope she doesn't.

>And even if TDS shadow learns who and what we are, stealth is not without it's advantages.

This is true though. If we get found out, avoiding conflict sounds better.

>I promise once we know how Masks would work- what the pros and cons actually are- we'll give them some thought. But for now, could we stop arguing about baseless assumptions? Several of us find the idea interesting, and we're not gonna stop that just because of what the worst case might be.

I'm fine with that.

>On tgchan? Fairly frequently, actually.

I need to hang around here more often.

>Honestly, I thought our plan was to improve the world, somehow? Recklessly creating a new race or races and dumping them into creation seems absurdly irresponsible, and likely to create more chaos and upheaval.

But fun! And maybe even necessary/beneficial!

Still, point taken. This speculation of mine is so far in the future it probably will never happen, and circumstances may change to the point where it's just not viable. But hey, brainstorming ideas like this is fun!

>>63915
>Except that when you start bringing in the effects of special abilities, particularly titanic ones, this isn't a hard rule. Adorjan has a charm that can reduce the duration of almost whatever task she wants by 2^(Essence-1), for example, and as it explicitly includes pregnancy a 15-month gestation time becomes something like 21 hours for her. Given that we've got time as a core part of our identity now, we should be able to pull similar ridiculousness if we so choose- Adorjan does hers through a core concept of impatience/speed, I believe.

Huh! Good to know. Very good to know. And I suspect that if we restrict our time haxx to our body, especially things inside our inner world, we'll have much fewer causality problems.

Good to keep in mind. Thank you.
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No. 63917 ID: cee89f

>If you're going to just call them super-powered jackasses, then you might as well resign yourself to fact that anything we create will probably become a bunch of super-powered jackasses.
The problem is that you seem to want to make a race of spja JUST TO MAKE A RACE of spja. What would making a new race created from screwing mortals we happen to be around with high arousal accomplish besides creating SPJA?!

>First, yes. Didn't I say that myself? Or pretty close to saying it outright. Second, Christian God is not the only god out there in mythology. Take a look at Greek mythology sometime. Fucking galore there, lemme tell you.

To the first, no, you said 'breath of creation'. Secondly, I don't like Greek origin stories for that exact reason.

>Wife
Is shorthand, based on the fact that Luna is generally depicted as female (for some reason). As you full well know.

>Also, last I checked Luna was GAIA'S consort.
Then Gaia went missing, she fell into a depression for a long, long time while while looking for her/him/it/GAIA and she started shacking up with the UCS later for some reason... i think >.> I keep getting conflicting information online, this is the closest i was able to salvage.

>If the Judeo-Christian God can do whatever he pleases, why did he make Eve from Adam's rib instead of just making her out of thin air?
I'm going to ignore that on the basis that I don't want to try and have a debate involving real-world modern religions - they're never civil for longer than a few posts.

>This would be something to suggest AFTER we've already presented a lot of evidence that we're on the side of Creation.
Putting the cart before the horse a bit, aren't ya? >.>

>Finally, since when is Luna our mother? We're just one of her champions. I don't recall us calling her our mother....I'd have to check.
Well, no we didn't, but A) she's the closest thing to a mother an amnesiac exalted by her hand has got, and B) I thought that was how the relationship between Luna and Lunars (specifically the silver pact) worked. Physically, no, Luna isn't your mother but spiritually, Luna's the person you look to for guidance and aid, someone who helps you when you're in trouble, someone you can always trust not to lead you astray. IE, yo spirit-mama.

...And it occurs to me that with that definition wordblood is technically our spirit-daddy.

Who is deep inside us.

...I am thoroughly creeped out now. Someone punch me!!
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No. 63918 ID: 5bf190

Some parts of this discussion are getting a little too passionate, I think. How about shifting topic a little?
>>
No. 63919 ID: cd4189

>>63918

*pouts*

But this kind of speculation is fuuuuuuuun!

We are getting a bit out of hand though. Sensitive topics are coming up that don't look like they'll be easily resolved. Good topics....

Okay, got one. What's Akatrina up to>

>"I agree. It was a long trip here, and I know I'm not feeling at my best; I'm sure others here are feeling some strain as well. We've clearly gotten into some sensitive topics, and we'd all benefit from being a little cooler under our collars. We'd be glad to accept your hospitality, sir Kaan."

Everything she said is likely completely true. But I don't think she was fooled. So what's her agenda? Is she trying to regain strength, just in case things get messy? Gather intel? If so, on who? We're the obvious choice, but maybe the Lunars and Peregrin too? Send word back to the Dragon's Shadow with whatever she's found so far? If she knows our Titanic nature, that may be reason enough. If she's got Shadow magic that lets her spy on us right now, she may still be gathering intel. At best (for us), she's using the time to plan her next move.

She allowed the withdrawal for a reason. What do we think her reason might be? What does she gain from this?
>>
No. 63920 ID: a0263a

>>63918

Jukashi! Is there a time frame on the update? I know you said it would be longer than a usual wait, but a hint of when to expect it would keep my from refreshing the Quest page every few minutes >.<
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No. 63921 ID: cee89f

>>63918
One of the Texans visited my cousin in the hospital while she had a staffe infection and pneumonia. So did her favorite player from the same team.

>>63919
It's social combat. The reason is that she was convinced that stopping was the best course of action. Possibly, her instructions also include not getting into a fight if it can be helped.

Assuming she has no hidden agenda (GYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... heh. That's a good one.):
-Peregrin convinced her this wasn't the best place for a debate
-Askalaff agreed with Peregrin and stipulated that the topics were sensitive
-She was tired from her own journey. Probably. Quick-travel or not it was most likely quite a distance.
-All involved parties agreed to just drop the subject until everybody was better rested
-Dropping the subject for now isn't an unreasonable request
>>
No. 63922 ID: 9b155d

>>63909
>...wait. The siderals damaged the very concept of masks to create fate? So... if we make masks our domain, that potentially gives us a direct line of control over fate. Or hell, long term we could restore the damage and overturn the concept of fate. That's fantastic!

That was a quote from the white-wolf wiki, but that part is a bit misleading. After the Usurpation, they basically shoved the bits of Fate saying what happened into the Mask Constellation and it couldn't handle the strain and cracked. It's what kept them from being sanctioned for offing all the Solars because the Gods had no way to prove who did it.
>>
No. 63923 ID: cd4189

>>63921

Indeed, all possible reasons you suggest are valid.....but give no guarantee that they're the only reasons Akatrina may have.

I'm expecting an opponent as savvy and experienced as Akatrina to try and accomplish multiple objectives and keep tabs on everyone she can (within reason and feasibility). Letting us out of her sight, when she was sent to investigate a disturbance she at very least now knows as us?

Us getting away this cleanly seems terribly optimistic to me. Peregrin admits we got a good deal, but doesn't think it was sufficient enough. I think Akatrina walked away from that round of combat the winner on multiple levels, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

In the meantime, I'd like to have a good idea of when and how that shoe will drop. If Akatrina gets word back to the Dragon and we are no longer protected via obscurity, I think we need to consider getaway plans, or ways to fortify our own position.

I would like to get out of the Dragon's Shadow's territory soon though. If we stay without the benefit of some kind of stealth or obscurity that can fool the Dragon's Shadow, I think we'll be looking at a face to face confrontation rather soon.

This might sound paranoid but people ARE out to get us. Betting on our apparent good fortune with such competent people nearby seems like it will just get us trapped by SOMEONE.
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No. 63924 ID: cee89f

>>63923
Oh yes, because a definite, concrete theory on her goals that is a perfect explanation is COMPLETELY possible to pull together from the little we know of her. Especially when my theory leaves the possibility of a hidden agenda - ie, something we don't know for certain =p

We really can't do much to get out of the Shadow's territory at the moment. At the very least, we have to wait until the sun comes up before we run. If we do that though, we leave Peregrin's land in a very bad position, either because we took peregrin with us or because we left him there with the Dragon's ire gathered.
>>
No. 63925 ID: cd4189

>>63924

A concrete theory of Akatrina's motivations? Gods no. We don't know nearly enough to say for certain. We don't know how much power she has beyond a vague sense, we don't know her orders, we've had only one encounter....a Sherlock Homes-ish deduction is laughable unless we somehow get magic that gives us our answers.

What we CAN do is speculate possibilities. Put ourselves in Akatrina's shoes as best we can, and do our best to cover our bases. Personally, I like to start at the worst case scenario and work my way up.

Or we speculate on the Lunars and what they're up to. We have a much better handle on them, not least because we can listen in on their 'secret' conversation. They want more intel. They're confused by us, a bit unbalanced, and they want to know more. Or the brains of the operation does, and convinced the brawn. They want to get out alive too, and killing time is a good way to accomplish both.

Actually, I'll bet you that Alice or the Captain may be facing our visiting Exalts. Talking to other Exalts is toeing the line with the ceasefire. Talking to hired help who have observed Saulanna and Peregrin? Fair game. They'll also be very easy to work with. I'll bet Akatrina could even get a handshake and wave off any usage of Shadow Magic by citing her usage of it on Saulanna.

Yeah.....if either one chooses to gather intel, chatting up the residents is probably a very lucrative and unthreatening route for them. Good reason to do so, easy targets, and most importantly to us, probably going to pay off extremely well for them.

And no, we're not getting out the here at the moment. We have to think more than a few steps ahead. Saulanna is best when she has a problem in front of, but we need to think further. Depending on the possible outcomes of this encounter, we need to have an idea of what to do in what scenarios. Not EXACT scenarios mind you, just general ideas. Like...cover unblown, Lunars appeased. We stay here. Cover blown, Lunars and Akatrina know, and are spreading information? What if only one side knows? What if they get away?

Although at the moment, planning for things like an escape probably won't bear much fruit until we pick Peregrin's mind for information beyond the borders.

....Although maybe we can screw with time just enough, in a single area, to get out of here. Risky, may attract attention to us while we escape, but potentially viable.

Ahh, speculation. Tis fun, but I reallyy need to keep a better leash on my mind, lest it wander too far.
>>
No. 63926 ID: cee89f

>A concrete theory of Akatrina's motivations? Gods no. We don't know nearly enough to say for certain. We don't know how much power she has beyond a vague sense, we don't know her orders, we've had only one encounter....a Sherlock Homes-ish deduction is laughable unless we somehow get magic that gives us our answers.

>What we CAN do is speculate possibilities. Put ourselves in Akatrina's shoes as best we can, and do our best to cover our bases. Personally, I like to start at the worst case scenario and work my way up.

...i was being sarcastic -.- In response to THIS:
>Indeed, all possible reasons you suggest are valid.....but give no guarantee that they're the only reasons Akatrina may have.

... No, ya know what? screw it. Not talking to you anymore.
>>
No. 63927 ID: cd4189

Well, I apologize for taking you too seriously. I let my mind wander while I'm here and lose tidbits and context as I type.

Do as you will.
>>
No. 63928 ID: d158fb

Jeeze, you guys. Now jukashi's going to rage quit. Then we'll never find out what happens to saulana's new deva.
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No. 63929 ID: cd4189

I hope not. I'd be very much saddened if my thinking out loud and the resulting discussion/argument derailed the actual Quest.
>>
No. 63938 ID: cee89f

>>63928
Last I checked Jukashi still had tendonitis. If this IS bad enough that he wants to ragequit, I am perfectly okay with that.
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No. 63943 ID: a0263a

>>63938

Oh Crap, he has Tendonitis? I must have missed that announcement. I feel like a jerk now.
>>
No. 63944 ID: f2c20c

To be honest I don't even read this thread anymore because the arguments are so pointless and long-winded.
>>
No. 63945 ID: a0263a

Arguments or not, there are some good ideas floating through. I'll probably remember them for later when the story progresses a bit.
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No. 63947 ID: 38cd76

I normally like the arguments of both of the recent arguees. In any case...

Does Jukashi still have tendonitis? It's been a while now. From my own experience, it doesn't seem to ever really go away, but surely its better by now?

I had a thought, about the Eating of a Sidereal soul.

You know, technically, we don't even need to eat it. We can just confince them to let us have it, and then we can take it into ourself. Rather, Saulana can take it into her inner world. Again, what she would have done with Peregrin at the end of last thread if we'd wanted to. The Sidereal would be perfectly loyal by that point, and still an externally moving personality.

It might be worth a shot.
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No. 63949 ID: 5bf190

>>63947
>>63943
>>63920

Not going to ragequit. I do still have the problem with my arm, chronic now essentially, but under normal circumstances it's not really a bother. However, I am in college as well, and I have to take notes and such. So the more I do the worse it gets and the less I draw, particularly when there's a lot to draw. It's essay season, too. I would be remiss to pretend, however, that there's not also a factor of me just being lazy or distracted from time to time.

Definitely no update for another couple of days. Maybe not 'till the end of the week.
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No. 63953 ID: cee89f

>>63943
He had it before starting up ch.2 of Lunar Quest. It's one of the reasons (probably the MAIN reason) KoC stopped updating.

>>63947
Think so. I vaguely recall him saying something like 'this art style doesn't put too much stress on my arm'

>>63949
Ouch. Well it's nice to have a time frame now, at least. Thank you
>>
No. 63954 ID: 38cd76

>>63949
Do you use wrist braces? I use those when my tendinitis starts acting up. You likely have it worse than me, so I'm certain you do, but if by any chance you don't they can help a lot.
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No. 63955 ID: fb9917

>>63947
Yeah, that's creating an akuma. It's a very useful ability as long as we don't use it on undeserving people. It kinda destroys their free will. Akuma created by the Yozis(the Titans trapped in Hell) are actually generally more powerful as a result of the process, with Sidereals and Lunars gaining access to Solar Circle Sorcery, which they normally can't learn for example, but I'm not sure how exactly that works and whether our akuma would be weaker.
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No. 63966 ID: cee89f

Something I just found: Gaia's title is "The Spirit of Creation" while Cytherea is known as the Mother of All.

Which is odd, because I always heard GAIA'S title as 'mother of life' or 'mother of all' =/
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No. 63973 ID: d785c7

So why did we decide against making peregrin our akuma again? Shouldn't that eliminate some of the edge that the dragons shadow has against us?
>>
No. 63977 ID: fb9917

>>63973
Because his personality would have bled into ours and also it's a pretty horrible thing to do to someone.
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No. 63978 ID: cee89f

>>63973
Because we could accomplish the same thing by giving him his true name, also ensuring his loyalty (without the ethical ramifications of Akuma) by giving him EXACTLY what he wants, making him more resistant to persuasion, and still allowing him free agency to act and think as he pleases.

At the moment, the Dragon's Shadow doesn't even know we exist, else why have someone investigate? Akatina may know but she hasn't told the Shadow as of yet. It's not like the Moon Heroes are going to let her out of their sight long enough for her to send off a message.
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No. 63979 ID: 6b8359

I just mean, its far less horrible to do to someone while saulana is still young. Her inner world isn't yet big enough for him to get lost. He'd have much more direct access to our titanic magical and essence, he'd likely even become a substantial part of the Titan we are becoming. A deva, if you Will, much like saulana is. Additionally, Wed also have access to these secret plans of the dragons shadow that he's hiding from us. It's nothing but win-win all around!
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No. 63980 ID: 70c0f2

>>63979
I think that ship has sailed. And it's not win-win. There are downsides to melding our personality directly with another being and absorbing them. We've had enough conversations about the potential risks of certain Devas on our personality, incorporating a fully formed person has a lot worse implications.

There are also advantages to having independent allies, and we lose those if we reduce him to another extension of Saulanna.
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No. 63982 ID: 9b155d

I can't recall a single instance of Akuma becoming part of a Yozi in Exalted, and there have been a lot of Akuma. Also, Akuma have very limited ability to act independently.

Beyond that, while Akuma get access to Demon Charms in normal Exalted, Solar Tier Exalts don't gain anything else except the patronage of the Yozi. We can probably grant him those charms anyway, and him knowing his True Name has been said to grant other bonuses. All in all, he's probably stronger this way and can better serve us. Plus no leak over from his personality!

Remember that the reason we trust him as much as we do now isn't because he showed himself to be trustworthy anywhere in the past. It's because we know he's trustworthy because of the oath. Bleed in from him was, and if someone tries to make him part of is will be a major concern.
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No. 63984 ID: 5eddac

Other akuma only became such of fully developed primirdials. We already know that saulanas soul Will be becoming more titanic via wordblood. We also know that peregrins presence in us would be pretty significant, though his soul would still be distinct, again via wordblood. It's not a very bug jump to make.

Also, how much autonomy he would have is basically up to us. He'd be much like wordblood, it seems, only with an external body in addition to his presence inside of saulana.
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No. 63985 ID: 70c0f2

We made our choice already, and Kaan himself wasn't fond of the idea. I don't see anything like sufficient reason to change that.
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No. 63986 ID: cee89f

>>63982
Screw Exalted, this is Lunar Quest!
...
*ah hem*
Wordblood actually said (while we were about to absorb the Soulsteel maker) that absorbing a person entirely ("as we considered doing with Peregrin") would have some bleedover. So yeah, making an Akuma would make his personality influence ours.
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No. 63988 ID: 6d61f3

>>63986
>"On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient, but his personality, his desires... I will not be able to surgically remove and abstract them from you, as I can with those who are devoured. You are not a whole Titan, into whom a single soul will vanish. He will be separate, and that will be some protection, but also a part of you, as I am; and I think we have already begun to blur a little, my lady. I do not recall telling you that this willing absorption was possible, and yet you knew."

Emphasis on the part where he specifically says "he will be seperate" and "but also a part of you, as I am"

We wouldn't be devouring him the way we do stray souls.


As far as it being too late. It's never really too late, and his true name and such that we've already gotten from him I think would still provide some benefits.
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No. 63990 ID: cee89f

>>63988
And he was very clear, VERY CLEAR, that the fact that it was different from eating souls would be the EXACT reason there would be seepage.

In the quote you put into that post, in fact -_- Here:

>"On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient, but his personality, his desires... I will not be able to surgically remove and abstract them from you, as I can with those who are devoured. You are not a whole Titan, into whom a single soul will vanish."

So YES, MAKING PEREGRIN OUR AKUMA WOULD INFLUENCE OUR PERSONALITY!
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No. 63998 ID: 6d61f3

I never said there wouldn't. I just don't see why that's a problem. He would also still be himself.
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No. 63999 ID: 70acd0

Enslaving a sentient being, especially with the caveat that they will remember their past freedom is a Bad idea. Emphasis on the capital B in Bad.
Ignoring the issue of seepage, doing so would change us from being predator into being a slaver. Not just the type of slaver that removes physical freedom, but one that removes spiritual freedom.

Now, add in the fact that the current target of this line of speculation is the champion of an entity that hates slavery with a passion. In one fell swoop, we'd be making mortal enemies of several of the most powerful entities in existence. One of which would likely be alerted to what happened the instance the deed was done. Then there's the more immediate problem of the present champions turning on us.

So yeah, merging in souls in that manner has Bad idea written all over it.
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No. 64000 ID: cee89f

>>63998
That's the thing about being an Akuma: you gain a connection to the primordial but also lose your free will. As Peregrin demonstrated in thread 1, it's not very desireable for him.

It's also very bad for us, because the main reason it seems we would want to absorb him rather than have him as a vassal would be that he was a person that would be undesireable to work with. We want the exact OPPOSITE right now - we're still trying to convince creation we aren't a bad Primordial, right?

And unless we're given a very good reason, I don't see why we should go back on our word now and turn Peregrin into a slave when we works better as our vassal and/or partner.
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No. 64001 ID: 3dd855

>>63998
The Lunar Quest equivalent to Akuma is not a one-way street, you idiot. Turning Peregrin into an Akuma would mean that Saulanna would be tainted by Peregrin, in personality and in nature. That is, Saulanna would become more like the not nice, quite possibly down right mean person Peregrin is, and have Death and Shadow taints from Peregrin Death Hero Exaltation (which is a bad thing; see Peregrin's reaction to the Death Element suggestion).
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No. 64009 ID: 38cd76

Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't become a coopted part of a greater being yet. ;)

On a more serious note, Peregrin retaining his identity and bleeding into Saulana is why it's not so completely horrible as normal. He still has a say, he has just about as much a say as wordblood does in fact.

Are we trying to argue now that we treat Wordblood horribly, and that we need to be trying to find a way to emancipate him? I mean, we'd stop having personality bleed from him too, if we did that!

And having coopted him, we'd have a much more direct source to his knowledge, we already know there are things he can't tell us about The Dragon's Shadow because of oaths made previously, but if he was a part of us that would no longer be a concern. It may attract attention, if anyone found out, but there's no reason they should have to. And it would give us an advantage against the one figure everyone seems to have decided to make our enemy.

Though the Dragon's Shadow doesn't necessarily seem like a bad sort, really. (I'm not sure if I'm joking here or not.)

PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

>we're still trying to convince creation we aren't a bad Primordial, right?

I think this is the most convincing argument that I've heard, (though the pleasant names and civil tone you all have used have been very persuasive). I'm just not entirely convinced that creation would necessarily find out.

I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?
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No. 64010 ID: ed6439

>PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

Um, no. Peregrin is not a nice guy. Sociopaths can be very charming, because they know how to work the levers of the human mind. And man is Peregrin good at working ours.

Remember, he has even admitted that all he wanted to do is learn more magic. As a mortal he summoned demons to do so. As an Exalt, he made a new Titan. He wants to learn from us, so he appeals to our enlightened self interest.

Treating us nicely does not mean he's a nice person. Or have we forgotten that people lie, and lie a lot? We certainly are. If we take Peregrin's soul into ourselves, we're probably going to share his desire to learn more and more magic, at increasingly great cost. Slippery slope, anyone?

No, even ignoring the enemies we could make, this is not safe for us.

>I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?

We're already hiding a secret liable to get us killed, let's not give them MORE reason to distrust us. Even if we have good reasons, on the surface it doesn't look very good. And we need a good first impression.
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No. 64014 ID: 70c0f2

Peregrin has definitely done bad things. He as good as murdered and/or mind raped pre-exaultation Saulanna in order to create who we are today and doesn't regret it at all. Just because he's polite and charming as a minion doesn't necessarily make him a good person- he's got a relentless in the pursuit of power and/or knowledge deal going on. Considering the potential power of a titan, I do not think those are qualities we want as part of ourself.

Honestly, any potential gains we get by making him part of us don't seem worth the moral cost, or the cost to ourself. (Honestly- it almost seems a classic light side / dark side choice- immediate advantages at the cost of corruption. That's an oversimplification, but...)

And even if his influence is as little as a Deva's- our Devas are basically as new as Saullana is. Saulanna and Wordblood have both been reborn, and Time is being born right now. Kaan is an established being, with a lifetime of development. I think that would give him more sway and influence on our personality than you're assuming.

>Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't had it taken away yet. ;)
...that is some seriously twisted and evil troll logic, there. o_o Bravo!
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No. 64017 ID: cee89f

>Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't become a coopted part of a greater being yet. ;)

That is horrendously evil -_-

>On a more serious note, Peregrin retaining his identity and bleeding into Saulana is why it's not so completely horrible as normal. He still has a say, he has just about as much a say as wordblood does in fact.

From a practical standpoint, this is a TERRIBLE idea, especially since he has a stronger force of personality and identity than Saulanna does.

>Are we trying to argue now that we treat Wordblood horribly, and that we need to be trying to find a way to emancipate him? I mean, we'd stop having personality bleed from him too, if we did that!

There is a difference between how we would treat an Akuma and how we treat Wordblood. Wordblood is an Aide, and thinks himself as a part of us and vice-versa. He helps us because that's in his nature, as well as his own self-interest. Peregrin, on the other hand, is only out for his interest in magic. To make Peregrin help us like Wordblood, WE WOULD HAVE TO REWRITE HIS MIND AND PROGRAM HIM INTO OUR SLAVE.

And then there's the fact that Akuma are brainwashed in the first place.

>And having coopted him, we'd have a much more direct source to his knowledge, we already know there are things he can't tell us about The Dragon's Shadow because of oaths made previously, but if he was a part of us that would no longer be a concern. It may attract attention, if anyone found out, but there's no reason they should have to. And it would give us an advantage against the one figure everyone seems to have decided to make our enemy.

First of all, the Shadow is our enemy by virtue of making himself the exact OPPOSITE of good - This is canon, by the way, not speculation: the Dragon's Shadow created the UCS (the embodiment of Holiness, Virtue and Law) so he could be the exact opposite (the embodiment of Unholiness, Sin and Chaos)

Second, he also loses all ability to think and act on his own initiative, which is a VERY valuable thing for a servant to have.

Third, overriding a decision previously made by the players for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON is incredibly rude and stupid. Making him our vassal has worked out very well for us. Why would we go back on that now?!

>PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

It'll be a LONG time before we can do anything like make a human soul into a Deva. We can offer him that later if we want, but for now, let's just keep him as our vassal. It's WORKING, IT'S NOT BROKEN, STOP TRYING TO FIX IT!!

>I think this is the most convincing argument that I've heard, (though the pleasant names and civil tone you all have used have been very persuasive). I'm just not entirely convinced that creation would necessarily find out.

When hiding a secret it's safest to assume that there's going to be someone looking for the secret. Sooner or later Creation (or at least the Shadowland) is going to notice Peregrin is gone. Keeping a secret as monumental as turning a Death Hero (i believe there's less than a hundred) as your own personal mind-slave isn't going to be feasible forever.

2) If your plan to fix what isn't broken requires you to keep a secret UNTIL THE END OF ETERNITY it's a bad plan, especially when it all but necessitates you keep Peregrin out of action.

>I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?

You mean secrets that come out of the woodwork every other day?
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No. 64032 ID: 5bf190

>>64017
>This is canon, by the way, not speculation: the Dragon's Shadow created the UCS (the embodiment of Holiness, Virtue and Law) so he could be the exact opposite (the embodiment of Unholiness, Sin and Chaos)

It should be pointed out that, in this setting, "holy" is basically "what the gods like", and is applied in terms of sweeping generalizations rather than anything specific. There are demons, for example, who do nothing but play lovely soothing music all day, and they're still Unholy, just because they're demons.

Virtue/Sin is accurate, provided you're referring to moral laws and systems of behavior rather than Virtue as Excellence, because the DS ain't stupid enough to throw that out. Law/Chaos is sort of accurate but also not quite, as Chaos is a specific force which all the Titans are opposed to. Remember, the Dragon's Shadow is themed around opposition, but it's in the sense of a "dark mirror" style of opposition; key differences, but also in many ways very similar.

Waters sufficiently muddied?
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No. 64035 ID: 70c0f2

>Waters sufficiently muddied?
Eh, not really. TDS being e-vul is probably the weakest of the arguments against for or against what we were just discussing doing to Kaan.
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No. 64036 ID: cee89f

>>64032

Fair enough, but...

A) ... that means that the Shadow made the UCS specifically so that he (Shadow) could be an asshole to ALL OF HIS OWN SERVANTS? Still really, really bad.

B) We're trying to look like a GOOD GUY to the world in general and the gods in specific so they won't kill us the instant we show we're a Titan. In this situation, Unholy is a BAD thing
>>
No. 64037 ID: beeca1

Yeah, the Dragon's Shadow got the King of Primordials to make perfection just so he would have something to be the opposite of. And it worked.
>>
No. 64040 ID: 38cd76

>what we were just discussing doing to Kaan.

I like to think of less "doing to him" and more "allowing him to become." :D

>>64017

1. We wouldn't need to brainwash him. We already have his true-name oath of loyalty, which would very likely still be in place. Plus, Wordblood already guaranteed that it would make him utterly loyal. I mean, yeah he'd be seperate, but he'd still be part of saulana.

2. He would arguably be just as free as Wordblood is, meaning he is still capable of autonomous thought and action, if we let him be. I would imagine he'd still need our permission for stuff, but if we tell him "do what you think is best" I imagine he'd be able to do so.

3. I imagine he'd turn into a deva around the same rate as we do, as our titanic essence is refined. I'm imagining it depends how much we actually would invest into his soul though, much like how it works with Wordblood.


I mean, most recently we ran into a lot of problems of communication with Peregrin, that prompted people to want to enable some form of telepathy with him. This would be negated if
Saulana simply accepted peregrin inside of her.

If they are one, they would have perfect harmony. Which could let us do crazy coordinated things.

I mean, he wouldn't be a MIND SLAVE really, he and Saulana would just be connected on so much more personal a level! There could be all sorts of benefits to being able to be in two places at once.

Plus, until we do there's always the nagging suspicion that he'll wiggle around his true-name oath somehow. He is a vassal of the Dragon's Shadow after all.
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No. 64042 ID: cee89f

>1. We wouldn't need to brainwash him. We already have his true-name oath of loyalty, which would very likely still be in place. Plus, Wordblood already guaranteed that it would make him utterly loyal. I mean, yeah he'd be seperate, but he'd still be part of saulana.

You're proposing turning him into an Akuma. And you just finished admitting there'd be NO POINT TO IT.

>2. He would arguably be just as free as Wordblood is, meaning he is still capable of autonomous thought and action, if we let him be. I would imagine he'd still need our permission for stuff, but if we tell him "do what you think is best" I imagine he'd be able to do so.

>3. I imagine he'd turn into a deva around the same rate as we do, as our titanic essence is refined. I'm imagining it depends how much we actually would invest into his soul though, much like how it works with Wordblood.

... An AKUMA IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A DEVA! They are two different things! Get over it -.-

The crap do you think turning someone into an Akuma DOES?! There's a reason Peregrin didn't want to become one when we could do the true name oath, ya know!

Here: "An Akuma is a mortal or Exalt who has been granted a measure of power by an Yozi, but essentially becomes a puppet of that Primordial."

IE, he wouldn't become PART of the Yozi, just controlled by it. We would literally enslave him to our will.

STOP PRETENDING WORDBLOOD AND AN AKUMA ARE THE SAME THING. BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT. SO YOU CAN STOP PRETENDING THEY ARE!!

>Plus, until we do there's always the nagging suspicion that he'll wiggle around his true-name oath somehow.

Why?! He has absolutely no reason to do so - the oath was largely for our own personal security, HE just wants to learn magic. As long as we teach him Titanic magic (which I assume we're going to be doing at some point) he's not going to try to run.

>He is a vassal of the Dragon's Shadow after all.

No, he's not. He engages in diplomacy with the Dragon's Shadow, that's different from being his vassal.
>>
No. 64047 ID: 38cd76

YOU should probably stop typing in all caps. It doesn't help your charisma level at all.

All of my theories are extrapolated directly from the quest, rather than Exalted Dogma, for one thing. Wordblood was pretty precise about what would happen if we took Peregrin's soul, and it wasn't stripping him of his will. Wordblood himself was the one that said that Peregrin would exist in saulana the same way that Wordblood does.

In most primordials, they're inner world is so big and they have so many souls that one more doesn't make a difference. This is not the case with Saulana. Again, this is taken directly from what wordblood said.


Basing things off of exalted canon will only get us so far, as there's never been a Primordial like Saulana before.

As far as him being a vassal, we already know that the dragon's shadow has made him privy to things that he can't tell us. And that the Dragon's Shadow sends other servants to go check up on him. And that he gets exaltation powers based on the Dragon's Shadow now. That's pretty vassal-like to me.
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No. 64050 ID: 70c0f2

...could we please just move on here? I thought the point of dis was to discuss and brainstorm long range options. Not for one person to make the same case over and over again to get torn apart by others over and over in a decreasingly coherent fashion.

I understand the desire to try and bring others over to your position, but there's a fine line between persuasion and browbeating. Twelve, you're obviously enamored with this idea- but it was voted out originally, and the response this time around has been overwhelmingly negative. Half, our criticism of his position has been made- it doesn't need to be remade over and over.
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No. 64054 ID: 63f851

Hey, Twelvth, I hate to say this but since you got your discussion about whether or not to eat Kaan, we've reached the conclusion that, well, everyone disagrees with you. Plus, the decision was made a long time ago and we've since long moved past it.

I've seen too many times where one person will make a point and won't stop re-arguing that one point until the arguments become circles and everyone gets extremely emotional since that one person prevents any other discussion. Please don't be that person.
>>
No. 64055 ID: cd4189

Alright, let's try to discuss something more directly useful.

Saulanna is at her best when she's being aggressive. Being aggressive means we need a goal. We need to be working something. We currently have two sides scouting us out, and we're pretty much on a side of our own for now, plus Peregrin as a vassal.

So. If we're going to be aggressive, what do we want to accomplish in the near future?
>>
No. 64056 ID: cee89f

>YOU should probably stop typing in all caps. It doesn't help your charisma level at all.

And repeating the same argument over and over DOESN'T MAKE YOU SOUND ANY SMARTER, but I'm trying to avoid personal attacks.

...Really, I am >.> ... What's with that look?

>All of my theories are extrapolated directly from the quest, rather than Exalted Dogma, for one thing.

No, they're not. They're based on contradicting everything another person says, or ignoring them entirely.

Peregrin specifically said that he would prefer becoming an Akuma over being killed. This option was implied to be Wordblood's absorbtion option, and frankly I don't know where you're getting the idea that it meant we'd make him a Deva. The system of Lunar Quests' actions and combat has changed a bit from exalted, but the setting itself remains largely intact (albeit in an alternate future)

>Wordblood was pretty precise about what would happen if we took Peregrin's soul, and it wasn't stripping him of his will. Wordblood himself was the one that said that Peregrin would exist in saulana the same way that Wordblood does.

Really.Because this:
>but if you did plan to do that I think I would rather offer my soul in one piece, as to become your akuma. Though I am... not too keen on that, either.
Makes it very clear that absorbing Peregrin whole would make him an Akuma. And this:
>"You face a wonderful opportunity, but not one that is without potential consequence. If you can persuade this man to give you his soul, you will have a valuable and utterly loyal servant; aside that, however, what is his will become yours. You will have access to all of his power. His magic. On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient,
Seems to indicate pretty clearly that his will will be gone. Specifically "utterly subservient".

>In most primordials, they're inner world is so big and they have so many souls that one more doesn't make a difference. This is not the case with Saulana. Again, this is taken directly from what wordblood said.

This only helps your argument if we WANT to be more like Peregrin, you know. And frankly, even if we wanted to be more like him we could do it without making him a FUCKING MIND SLAVE!!


>Basing things off of exalted canon will only get us so far, as there's never been a Primordial like Saulana before.

Except I'm basing the Akuma stuff on a process that is already known to exist in Exalted canon and to have many occurences. YOU are basing it on wishful thinking mixed with an alarming desire to do something horribly evil.

Seriously, this is downright creepy. Are you THIS dead-set on turning Peregrin into a mind-slave?!

>As far as him being a vassal, we already know that the dragon's shadow has made him privy to things that he can't tell us. And that the Dragon's Shadow sends other servants to go check up on him. And that he gets exaltation powers based on the Dragon's Shadow now. That's pretty vassal-like to me.

The first only proves that the dragon is very careful with his information, which tells us he's a politician. Well dun-dun-fucking-duuuuuun.

The second proves the Shadow doesn't trust him. How does that suddenly equate to 'hes a vassal'? It doesn't prove anything. Hell, if the guy can make Peregrin keep information secret, he could probably force him into being an utterly loyal slave, so this actually HURTS your point >.>

The third is reasonable but in actuality it's because the Dragon's Shadow took over the Underworld, and THAT'S where death heroes draw their power from.

...But that's enough. Not discussing this anymore. It's a STUPID (and evil) idea. End of story
>>
No. 64057 ID: 38cd76

>>64055
>>64050
I'm willing to let it drop. Honestly, it's not even that I was particularly enamored with the idea. But honestly, the first time around there was a lot of indecision still when Jukashi pushed the decision, and wordblood had implied that we could change our minds later if we wanted to.

There are a few arguments I find convincing against it, for instance just the idea that, you know, Peregrin might become something of a friend if we let him, or that it's important we really stay away from looking like an evil primordial.

Mostly I simply find that a lot of the arguments made against it though are not terribly coherent, and not in line with what wordblood said the process would entail.

However, as you say, as people don't seem inclined to actually discuss the possibilities in a coherent manner, I will defer.

>>64055

We should make a priority list.

1. Do NOT get lunar tattoos. If we have to pretend to go along with the other lunars, and then make an escape, I would be fine with this.

2. Escape the Shadowyland. Is the manse in here attuned to peregrin? Did we ever conclude that definitely? There are benefits to being here, but there are also... weaknesses.

3. Music Box.

4. Find Titanic Fragments. I think this is our best long term goals. Wordblood implied that it would be a decently quick way to both gain power, and develop our identity as a titan.

Did I miss anything?
>>
No. 64062 ID: b978d0

I've already thrown in my two bits where I care to. I don't mind letting others have their own opinions, even if I don't agree with them personally.

>>64055
Well, Saulanna was previously a treasure hunter / scholar ( / thief as well, but we don't need to mention that) type, which is a lifestyle that will support our goals of remaining relatively anonymous while giving us time to grow and develop.

Publicly we have the cooperation of Peregrin, and as such we have access to a decent library. This gives us a good pretence to stick around here to study a bit, gaining possible leads on treasure, artefacts, lost knowledge, etc.
We can insist that we're cooperating with Peregrin as what we dig up could be mutually beneficial (nice seed of truth there), in addition to him having more knowledge of the local area so that we don't end up on wrong side of the local authorities (also pretty much true). In other words, we're a relatively typical unaligned adventurer type with no particular desire to step on the toes of others, but also no particular desire to specifically align ourselves with others either.
Also no particular need to be all that specific as to what we're hunting for as currently we would have just gone from "we've got a hunch there could be some good finds around here" to "garner cooperation of locals to perform research and find more solid leads". The latter step having been interrupted by the arrival of the current guests before research could commence.

We're not exactly a pure as snow type, so propositioning someone like Peregrin is well within the scope of possibilites. Rather than outright lie about our scuffle with him, it would be better to infer a back story. Something along the lines of us initially being turned down by him (reasonable response to a random vagabond), followed by a failed attempt at stealing what we wanted, which escalated into the scuffle. The scuffle itself eventually culminating in the mutual understanding that the fight itself was likely to end badly for both of us, thus falling back on a more diplomatic approach which resulted in a professional patron-researcher agreement. Also gives us both excuses to not want to talk about the initial curfuffle directly as we both kinda fucked up along the way.

That whole bit helps to give us a viable back story that explains our association with Peregrin, and possibly get Akatrina off our case with Peregrin effectly presiding over our research and treasure hunting activities in his territory. As a treasure hunter, having located a patron would also be sufficient reason for us to not want to wander off into the forest with some strangers to get ritual tatoos. Still, I'm not sure how to convince the Lunar duo that we're not a ticking time bomb without some strong circumstantial evidence or some such.


I do wonder if we should reconsider hiding our nature from Luna. She does preside over the Wyld and such, including the likes of beastmen and mutants, so might not be all that opposed to having some strange new breed of titan as an Exalt. I also wouldn't be surprised if she already knew and was just waiting to see if we'd get up the courage to admit as much to her or instead try to cover our tracks completely. Not unlike how a parent might treat a three year old that broke their favorite vase but hasn't fessed up yet.

She might just reward our honesty and reverence by providing us with what we need to peacfully get Askalaff and Garmir off our case.
>>
No. 64068 ID: cee89f

If I haven't made myself into a complete demon yet and may offer my own 2 cents:

Our most immediate priority would be Askalaff, Akatrina and dog-boy. We'll need to discuss our alibi with Peregrin - make sure that next time we aren't making it up on the spot, oughta help with our confidence in it.
>>64062
This sounds good as a backstory, though I disagree on the Luna thing. We probably shouldn't reveal ourselves (whatever the cost may be) until we have proven ourselves to be a force for good in the world. At that point, it makes sense to reveal ourselves, say 'I didn't tell you before because I wanted you to trust me, and saying "Hey, I'm an infant of those things you killed/locked up" probably would've done the exact opposite before getting some good deeds under my belt'.

She might understand. Long as we don't go too far in keeping the secret (such as forcing a god to keep his mouth shut with the Geas)

>Trust towards Garmir and Askalaff
Oh that's easy. "Why the infernal hells would I trust them?! Sure, Askalaff was okay but Garmir was an asshole! A SMELLY asshole!!"

>Tattoos
We could tell them that, for treasure-hunting and knowledge-gathering purposes (we could hint we're a scholar as well as a treasure hunter, which would help explain our knowledge of languages if it comes out) we don't want to leave Peregrin's home just yet. To reassure them as far as the Chimera thing goes, we'll say we won't transform. We only have a raccoon and pale salmon form so far anyway - it's not like we'll have much opportunity to transform.

And that if they don't like it they can go f*** themselves. =p
>>
No. 64069 ID: cd4189

>>64062

This....this is good. This is very good. I think the treasure hunter approach is excellent. Our backstory clears and we have Peregrin as a reference. We can even describe the story of our Exaltation. Peregrin caught us stealing from us, and by sheer guts, savvy, and luck we temporarily escape. He pursued us. We were determined to survive, and we became a Lunar. Once Peregrin found out we were a Lunar, we opened negotiations and came to a mutually satisfying arrangement.

Peregrin will forgive our transgressions against him so long as we work with him to repay our debt and crimes to him. We will aid him within reason, and in return he will help us grow strong. The two of them need not be against each other, and we much prefer cooperation to strife.

Peregrin directs us towards treasure and rumors while he oversees his section of land. Together we share in the finds. Peregrin has 'dibs' on all things magical that he can study, and he shares the fruits of his labors with us. We have claim to our own items.

The big problem is that we don't know out own backstory. If we are asked questions to confirm things, we can't answer if THEY already know the answer. But I'm willing to take a gamble and bluff here. It's our best option.

I am willing to consider opening discussion with Luna. She MAY approve of us, and one way or another? We are HERS. HER Champion. We want to be good and just, and we want to help. If we can convince her of this, if we can get a chance, we can get the Lunars on our side, and leave us alone.

....Yeah, I'm willing to discuss our being a Titan with Luna. While it's a strike against us, they've let other titans live. They may let us live. Watched, certainly. We'll lose some autonomy. But we'll gain a patron.

If it works. Risky, but quite a few potential benefits and we can start freely consulting Luna AND Wordblood. Quite frankly, this is the best chance we're going to get to reveal our nature. Other Exalted and agents were born and raised on propaganda against us. They WILL want us dead because we are their sworn enemies. Not everyone knows the whole truth.

Luna does. Luna was THERE. She knows there are exceptions. She, and the rest of the Gods who truly do know the Titans better than anyone NOT the Titans, and the most likely to be understanding.

Okay. When we get the chance, I'm willing to vote that we come clean with Luna. We will not get a better one. Our secret will come up, and Jukashi has told us that it will come out before we're powerful enough to defend ourselves from all comers. At least this way we can curry favor with Luna before it's revealed to her via second-hand sources, and we're known as liars and suspicious.

Honesty Is The Best Policy exists for a reason. Now...let's be honest.
>>
No. 64070 ID: cee89f

>>64069
I'm warming up to the idea of telling Luna, but... As wordblood said, she would tell the UCS, and we don't know how well HE would react to it. It's not a good idea to have the UCS on your tail.

At the absolute least - the ABSOLUTE least - we need to:

1) Wait until we're out of the Shadowland. We need to be far, FAR away from the Dragon's Shadow's domain before we decide to announce to Luna that we're a Titan.

2) Establish a way to communicate with Peregrin once out of the shadowland. He's our ally and we agreed to teach him - it wouldn't do to leave him hanging.

3) Bring this up to her at night. If I remember correctly, the Sun is basically a massive battle-cruiser slash BFMecha. It'd help to be under the moon in any case.
>>
No. 64071 ID: 5bf190

>>64070
>If I remember correctly, the Sun is basically a massive battle-cruiser slash BFMecha.

Sun doesn't work that way in Lunar Quest.

Just me declaring it to be so.
>>
No. 64073 ID: 38cd76

I agree with all of the above ideas on background haxx. I think the treasure hunter scenario has just enough grain of truth that we can easily work with it.

Another good thing for us to work towards, is rediscovering our own past. I'm sure we have a boatload of connections that we have no recollection of, because our soul was "purified".

There must be some trace of us though, somewhere.


As far as telling Luna... I see no need to tell her. But I also see no need to hide it from her.

I get the impression she's much more personal with her exalts than the Sun, she would not have exalted us if she wouldn't agree to whatever we would do with the power. She likes our survivalist spirit.

On the other hand, because of what she likes about us, I doubt she wants us running to her for every little problem. Yeah, so all of fate will turn against us if they find out we're a primordial. Luna's Chosen are Survivors by nature, and elements of change, I doubt she'd want us trying to ask for extra favors.

Heck, he may even LIKE the fact that we're a baby primordial. He is a trickster god, after all.
>>
No. 64074 ID: cee89f

>>64071
Ah, okay. But you DID previously say that the sun was a tool that Sol used to accomplish his duties, so... same basic issue. We trust Luna to think it over, even talk to Sol. But UCS may fire without even thinking about it. At least if the sun rises early we'll have forewarning.

...

Then again, Luna WAS being sarcastic at the time, so maybe they are just big bright lights in the sky >.> huh.
>>
No. 64075 ID: 404f8a

>>64071
oh nooooo D:

The Dirigible Engine Daystar is awesome. :(
>>
No. 64076 ID: cd4189

>>64070

1. That would be preferably, but I think we could really use her help with our Lunar friends now. Or at very least, have Luna promises to get the Lunars to give us an exemption. Hey, if Luna says we don't need tattoos, then we don't need tattoos. We will not get a better excuse than this. Besides, I think it's likely that TDS will know that we're a Titan fairly soon. Even if he can see in our inner world and talk with Luna (and I doubt it). I'm willing to risk the contact here. Better we tell Luna on our terms than TDS's.

2. Agreed.

3. It's night right now, and if we go too far we pop up in the Underworld. And it's possibly going to be night for a good long while. We can contact Luna, by the current terms, for as long as the Moon is full.
>>
No. 64077 ID: 5bf190

>>64075

Consistency. If the regular Sun's a big ol' mecho-ship, then what's the Red Sun, and where did it come from? Plus I have my own idea for what the Sun could be.
>>
No. 64079 ID: cee89f

>>64076
1. It's unlikely that we could find a way to get the Lunars to exempt us that would not look incredibly suspiscious from Akatrina's point of view.

3. The problem is that technically this Shadowland is part of the Underworld right now - it's possible the Dragon's Shadow would have some way to intercept the message.

>>64077
Krypton. *rimshot*

...Uh, i mean... the Dragon's Shadow ascended the Red Sun, couldn't he have made it it's own giant sky weapon? And if not, it could be whatever you've decided the Sun is now.

... well, can't be helped now I guess =) would've been an interesting discussion topic. "If the Dragon's Shadow couldn't make a giant battlemech/ship, then what is the Red Sun?"

>>64073
In Exalted, Luna speaks to all of her Exalts when they ascend, and Sol only speaks to his Priests (Zenith Caste). So yeah, she's more personable. I like to think she's more human than the average god.

I'm dead wrong, of course. But let me have my delusions...

... *sigh*
>>
No. 64080 ID: cd4189

>>64079

1. Who said anything about telling Akatrina? If Luna negotiates or intervenes on our behalf, we could concievably just agree to leave with the Lunars for our tattoos, and not tell Akatrina that we have no intention of actually taking them.

3. If he does, he's been intercepting the rest of our messages too. And if he can do that, there's probably a whole host of other abilities he has. Nothing terrible has happened to us yet. Certainly Peregrin APPEARS to have created a Titan without TDS knowing.

....There's a scary thought. The TDS already knew about Peregrin's plans, us, and he's just keeping an eye on his pet project.

It's risky and we should ask Wordblood and Peregrin before we do. It may be worth the risks though.
>>
No. 64081 ID: 3dd855

>>64077
well

the important thing is

is the daystar still a puppy?
>>
No. 64082 ID: cee89f

>>64080

1. I assumed you meant we would use our connection with Luna to make them leave without Tattooing us.

3. I singled out Prayer because the gods are basically his enemies (even if Akatrina's right and he doesn't WANT them to be) and prayer is the main way to communicate with a god/goddess.

... Yeah, let's ask them about this. We still should probably come up with a way for 2-way communication to be established with Peregrin, though.

>>64081
I AM THE SUN
I BRING LIGHT
I BRING WARMTH
I SERVE THE KING OF HEAVEN
PRAISE MY MASTER!
SCRATCH MY EARS!!
RUB!! MY!!! BELLY!!!!
>>
No. 64083 ID: cd4189

>>64082

1. That's certainly one outcome. Another one is to go along with them, and let them escort and protect you our of the Dragon's Shadow's turf. If we need to leave, we might as well leave in the company of two experienced Lunar Exalts.

If we choose to stay, we can still act as if we're PLANNING to take the tattoos at some point. Just not now.

Besides, Wordblood has said that Akatrina probably doesn't know all that much of Lunars, so we might be able to do some successful bluffing. Best of all, if we get the Lunar Exalts on our side, THEY are under no compulsion not to use social magic. They can use theirs in our defense and against Akatrina. That'd be nice.

3. You singled our Prayer? When? As the form of communication? Is that what you mean? In any case, however we communicate with Luna, it's our only option. If we do it, we just have to accept the risks.

We can have Wordblood speak to Luna, or announce our presence, and imply that we wish to talk more in a safe place. I'd rather clear our dirty laundry immediately before suspicion has time to fully mature, and because waiting and asking Luna to spare us without giving up something in return seems unwise. It'd probably end up with the two visiting Lunars escorting us out whether we like it or not.

Communication with Peregrin would be good, but falls under the same worries you have with us communicating with Luna. Interception is a serious concern. It'd be nice if we had it but we might have to be prepared to do without for now. We're just not that talent at 'magic.' Only at reshaping the world to a limited extent, and with exceedingly valuable Titan's Will. It took an entire measure of Titan's Will for Wordblood to send thoughts into Peregrin, while in the room. Never mind receiving thoughts, and receiving them from across Creation and the Underworld.

We can look into it, but I am not hopeful. Not with our current resources.
>>
No. 64084 ID: 70acd0

>>64068
Bah, someone's got to play the devil's advocate :P
I count the passion demonstrated in the various arguments as being proof positive of Jukashi's excellent storytelling abilities. You don't get those kinds of arguments over a story that no-one is emotionally invested in after all.

I do agree that extreme caution should be taken in revealing our true nature to Luna, though I would argue that we have already proven ourselves to a recognizable degree. We not only bested Peregrin, but also bound him to us by oath. We've also devoured evil spirits and protected friendly ones along the way.
Also note that Wordblood's insistence that we not alert Luna was also primarily based on what memories he had when awakened. A very reasonable line of thought at the time, but he's since gotten much more up to date on historic events, something that rocked his world badly enough that we tried our best to comfort him.

>>64069
Those are some good suggestions for fleshing out the presentation of the back story.

I do think that any consultation of Luna should be accompanied by an appropriate sacrifice. In this case that would be our most damning secret in exchange for her acceptance, and possibly assistance with our current predicament.

I would also suggest staying away from the whole "honesty is the best policy" thing with her though. Being the god/dess of trickery, among other things, that's likely to be somewhat insulting. Better to appeal to her for assistance ~with~ being tricky, asking her to help us manage the very secret we would be sacrificing to her.

Hopefully deferring to her greatness will help stoke her ego, while our actions since exaltation and intentions to deal with the other Lunar champions peacefully will show we're worth the gamble on her part.

First though, we'd need to bring this up with Wordblood and our pending new deva. Preferably gently, as Wordblood is understandably uncomfortable with the thought of going face to face with one of the entities responsible for his. That said, I don't think that Luna would really find anything truly repulses her regarding Wordblood on close inspection.
Either way, we shouldn't go further with it until our inner denizens are all willing to risk it.

As Luna and UCS are partners, I don't doubt that she'd tell him. However, I do think she'd has the wherewithal to tell him when the time is right, preferably after setting up a favourable context. Better a friendly breaking it to him than having it painted bleakly by one of his underlings that have been fed the anti-titan sentiment all their existence.

I do agree that we should only contact Luna about this when she is the primary god with influence over creation. Under the light of the full moon being the peak time.


I would note that I'm not sure if we'd truly be considered a titan. We're not exactly of the same breed as the full fledged titans, given that the core of our being, Saulanna's soul, is that of a mortal. That made us mortal enough to accept our Lunar exaltation. I don't think that would have happened were we the same breed as a conventional titan.
As such, that little variance in our design may make all the difference when we are eventually judged by the powers that be. Provided we don't damn ourselves by our own actions, there is hope that the core differences in what we are will separate us from the titanic sins of the past.


I think there's more that I could respond to, but it's already taken me way too long to get this typed up, so that's it from me tonight.
>>
No. 64085 ID: cd4189

>>64084

>I do think that any consultation of Luna should be accompanied by an appropriate sacrifice. In this case that would be our most damning secret in exchange for her acceptance, and possibly assistance with our current predicament.

It's certainly a start, I admit. She may want more though.

>I would also suggest staying away from the whole "honesty is the best policy" thing with her though. Being the god/dess of trickery, among other things, that's likely to be somewhat insulting. Better to appeal to her for assistance ~with~ being tricky, asking her to help us manage the very secret we would be sacrificing to her.

We're not going to impress LUNA with our tricksy abilities. Besides, there is no way we can sugarcoat this without ringing massive alarm bells. She's vulnerable to us via geas, she may take us being tricky seriously. In the sense of, "Do not bullshit me girl and pretend you're getting away with this."

She's also tied to wilderness and the wild. Some animals know when to submit and give it up. Being cheeky could be...dangerous. Being COMPLETELY honest and relying entirely on Luna may lose us some respect, but being overly tricky with the goddess of tricky is just as bad, if not worse.

If we appeal to Luna, let's not pretend we're getting away with any shit under her nose. Not with wordplay. Being a Titan is not a matter we bullshit about. We're not going to be a passive, submissive little girl, but we also need to recognize damn well that as soon as we ay it bare, Luna's the one with the power.

For starters, she has two Lunar Exalts she can command to kill us, immediately.

Let's not get carried away here.

>Hopefully deferring to her greatness will help stoke her ego, while our actions since exaltation and intentions to deal with the other Lunar champions peacefully will show we're worth the gamble on her part.

Hopefully. Like I said, we're submitting to the stronger one because A. we want to, B. it favors us.

If we're going to impress her, it'll be in the way we present information and arguments to make her WANT to spare us. Our saving grace will be the truth of our actions and intentions, you admit it yourself. It's all in the presentation.

>First though, we'd need to bring this up with Wordblood and our pending new deva. Preferably gently, as Wordblood is understandably uncomfortable with the thought of going face to face with one of the entities responsible for his. That said, I don't think that Luna would really find anything truly repulses her regarding Wordblood on close inspection. Either way, we shouldn't go further with it until our inner denizens are all willing to risk it.

I agree.

>As Luna and UCS are partners, I don't doubt that she'd tell him. However, I do think she'd has the wherewithal to tell him when the time is right, preferably after setting up a favourable context. Better a friendly breaking it to him than having it painted bleakly by one of his underlings that have been fed the anti-titan sentiment all their existence.

This is my hope as well.

>I do agree that we should only contact Luna about this when she is the primary god with influence over creation. Under the light of the full moon being the peak time.

I believe it's still a full moon. Because of TDS' time manipulation, we're still on the same night.

We HAVE our perfect timing. :)
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No. 64091 ID: cee89f

>>64083
>3. You singled our Prayer? When? As the form of communication? Is that what you mean? In any case, however we communicate with Luna, it's our only option. If we do it, we just have to accept the risks.

I kinda HAD to. >.> like you said, it's the only way we have to talk to Luna right now. But more importantly, prayer was a function of human souls created by Titans. Titans like our dear Dragon's Shadow.

I'm perfectly willing to accept the risk, just not without stacking the deck in our favor as much as we can. If we wait until we're out of the Shadowlands, the probability that our message will be intercepted drops like a stone.

>We can have Wordblood speak to Luna, or announce our presence, and imply that we wish to talk more in a safe place. I'd rather clear our dirty laundry immediately before suspicion has time to fully mature, and because waiting and asking Luna to spare us without giving up something in return seems unwise. It'd probably end up with the two visiting Lunars escorting us out whether we like it or not.

W