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95973 No. 95973 ID: a107fd

Wiki: http://tgchan.org/wiki/Metyelilu's_Revenge
Thread: http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/673811.html

Pictured are Flint Eastbold (#12) and Morgan Manslayer (#2).
496 posts omitted. Last 100 shown. Expand all images
>>
No. 104050 ID: b9aa79

I'm also struggling a bit on figuring out who has what money. The share breakdown was very helpful and very much appreciated, but I'm unsure where previous money lies. The ship was listed as 375, and less than 20% of our assets which means that as a group we have a little over 1875 gold. The thing I don't get is that the snakeskin was 2000 gold, so it seems to me that Jamesleng is not counting crew assets in his total, leaving me to assume he's either counting Nico's assets or Nico's and Marjike's assets for the purposes of the 20%. He just listed Marjike as having 850, and noted that Nico had enough to buy Riv an engagement present worthy of the kardashians, so the math about adds up, with Nico have a little over a thousand (the listed price for those clockwork parts) and marjike have the other 850. As long as someone can verify that for me, I'm gonna extrapolate from there. Before the selling of the snakeskin the captain and Nico combined would have something in the neighborhood 650 gold combined (thats a rough estimate because I don't feel like looking up numbers and getting out the calculator). With a C rank ship being over half of that, and operating expenses eating through the rest in a matter of a few months, the selling of the snake skin is very much a needed windfall for securities sake. Without it's sale the crew would NEED to be dungeon delving regularly as you had suggested before in order to keep the ship and it's crew running in good standing- and if all we find are boots and tapestries then the ship can stay maintained regularly and we stop being able to buy new gear and such- something which makes for a very boring game of pathfinder. So while it's not necessary to sell the snakeskin in order to buy a boat, if we want to buy a boat then paying to get magic armor made out of the most valuable resource the party has is a hard sell in my opinion. YES magic armor is cool and YES Garaile is on the front lines and very much deserving of such protection, but currently that represents a very uneven distribution of the wealth towards him; currently Marjike and Nico are receiving that uneven distribution and being told that it's their job to use it to benefit the crew. If IC there's a problem with the way funds are distributed you'll have to bring it up, but I think, assuming what I've said is more or less right, it's both understandable how the ship seemed like it was going to eat up all 2000 gold of profit but simultainously not even be close to our reserves. We don't have 10,000 gold to throw around, it's just a bit of finacial misunderstanding I think.
In that same vein I, OOC, also believe it would be rather unfair to drop a thousand gold on mechanical parts for Riv while Garaile has all the profits from his near death experience put towards a ship he disapproves of buying. If we're going to evenly distribute the snakeskin funds rather than make armor, then it's unfair to get a special magic item for someone else yanno?
>>
No. 104053 ID: a107fd

>>104037
>hills are infested with bandits, but ocean is totally clear
Ocean hazards include reefs along the shore, sea monsters, rival pirates, and a coven of hags (with extensive political connections) that sinks ships for a living. You happen to be on good terms with the latter, and have that mind-bondaged giant octopus to help fight off the other monsters, but there's still plenty of potential risk. Either route could involve bad weather, and at sea you can't just hide in a cave until the storm passes. Main advantage of the water route is that, with a substantial capital investment that only recently became affordable, you could move roughly 10x faster, with more cargo and less work. Less time spent in transit means fewer random encounters, and better chance of disengaging from any problems that do arise.

If you'd captured and repaired the Neogi skyship (unlikely but not impossible), flying almost everywhere might seem like a dead-obvious superior option. That's not railroading, it's "when all you have is a hammer." Some advantages are game-changing, and I'm not going to shy away from that.

>have to convince selfish NPC to be able to take land route, but can take sea route whenever

You could also acquire draft animals the normal way, or have Rixxil Kas "persuade" Gunderbag to do the job without his favorite provisions. You could disassemble the wagon and proceed on foot; the exodimensional sanctum's door is awkwardly large but only 70 lb, so with some straps and poles, two ordinary humans could carry it between them.

>NPC's favorite food just happens to sharply increase in price
You extorted the initial stock from goblins as part of a nonaggression pact, without actually checking the price. They grow it underground. There are relatively few routes, and the easiest one recently got more dangerous. Shipping bulk goods long distances without the benefit of modern vehicles isn't easy, and shipping anything through a war zone all the more so. This is a plot hook. If you'd kept most of the mushroom-starch rations instead of recruiting Gunderbag and letting him gorge himself, you could've sold 'em. Opening up a trade route, with Kamlyss's cooperation, remains possible.

>>104049
>So I apologize to JamesLeng for implying the party doen't have choices.
Accepted.
>I understand the party has choices. What I really meant was it feels like I personally don't have choices.
A lot of your bad information seems to come from pessimistic assumptions. Stop thinking of what an abusive DM would mean if my words were coming out of their mouth, and start listening to (re-reading, whatever) exactly what I've said. If you're uncertain about something, ask questions. Even when you're in a high-time-pressure situation, like exploring a dungeon or other hostile environment, I will not ever penalize you for asking about stuff your character would be able to directly perceive, or remember offhand. In calmer circumstances, where taking a few minutes to stop and smell the roses wouldn't have tactical implications, I still tend to default to relatively terse 'at-a-glance' descriptions, but you should feel free to ask any sort of follow-up questions, corresponding to your character examining a subject in more detail, asking NPCs, or just thinking it over. You want a floor plan of the Black Boar Inn, a list of everyone living or working nearby, dubious taproom rumors about the deeper levels of the dungeon, a dissertation on the economic and political causes of that war in the north, recent conclusion of which has sent so many battle-scarred men southward to push back the frontier or die trying, for lack of civilian career prospects? Feel free. I'll come up with something, mostly extrapolating from what I already know about the setting. Some things are already firmly established, but not specified because they wouldn't be obvious or didn't seem relevant; other times I'll be completely blindsided by what you take interest in and, when necessary, roll something up at random.

>>104050
>The thing I don't get is that the snakeskin was 2000 gold, so it seems to me that Jamesleng is not counting crew assets in his total,

Snakeskin and Yorgala's mirror were 1000 gold each. I'm only counting the latest round of plunder as it's being portioned out, although that is the majority of the group's liquid assets. 20% of 2000 is 400, and the ship (and crew, and logistical network) is 375 to set up.

For Marijke's cash I was figuring her share of the current plunder along with yet-unspent leftover from the previous payday. Nico likewise.

If Marijke is paying for the ship entirely out of her own share, budget for supplies would run out in about a year... but the adventures so far, from the start of thread one to Stone waking up penniless, took less than one month. Two more months for the ship to be built and delivered, during which time somebody needs to maintain a presence at either the Black Boar Inn or Passholdt to wait for the snakeskin assayer, but now that Rixxil's arrow-extraction ritual is resolved, the three acolytes could provide magical support on visits to the Mouth of Doom or the monastery in the swamp during that time. Or, less exciting downtime activity, such as crafting or further ritual magic.

>a thousand gold on mechanical parts for Riv
Only about 300, actually.
>>
No. 104058 ID: 218c8d

>>104053
>Only about 300, actually.
Whoops, my bad, making assumptions based on pathfinder prices. Now that Riv has seen the beautiful clockwork of the lockbox though she's sorely tempted to hold out and save up for those (if they're more expensive- I remembered them being 1000 gold). Her familiar has to be perfect if she expects her work to be perfect. Why bring life into this world in a substandard she'll when you can do it sublimely? No, her creation cannot suffer mediocrity when superiority is available. As for the money, if my assessment is indeed incorrect and 20% was 400 out of 2000 do you have estimates on what Marjike and Nico have accumulated? I could probably figure it out myself but that'll take time I don't readily have:
>>
No. 104060 ID: 383927

JamesLeng I wanted ask and get a little more info on what happened with Stone. With both Stone and Alphious I responded to the prompts but I never saw input as to what happened- like I said I'm fine playing one character or ten so i don't mind if there's not room for them or anything like that but I'm just feeling a bit confused and in the dark as to what's happening on that front. I recognize that with school starting, work, personal lives, etc, stuff like running quests can take a back seat, I wasn't sure if anything like that was going on in your life right now that might be making it a bit harder to keep the same level of input into the game
>>
No. 104062 ID: 3abd97

>It occurs to me that oil might not be readily available on the ocean either.
Whaling?

It can be stored in barrels, at least.

>lots of stuff on long term options
I swung towards the ship because it sounds like a more interesting plot hook than the trip overland described, and because it does kind of seem like we lucked into several things that make that the more attractive mode of transit.

I'd favor traveling somewhere new over staying around the inn forever, and I'm not keen on Riv's plan to take on the neogi head on.

I like going towards the coven to collect what they owe us as a long to medium term goal. Other than that... pretty flexible as to what we do in the interim? (Although my character wants to be making a profit somehow, of course).
>>
No. 104091 ID: a107fd

>>104060
Stone is near the Black Boar Inn, and healthy enough to be functional, but flat broke, so he should probably sign on with Marijke's crew, since they seem to have more money than they know what to do with. He stumbled into town like he was sleepwalking, and Ulman Dark isn't looking for an apprentice or assistant at the moment.

Alphious is in the goblin city of Greznek. I should probably have compiled a big 'splash page' introduction by now, sorry about that. There's a few key things from the original source material that I wanted to significantly rework. http://www.threepanelsoul.com/comic/on-memory-allocation
>>
No. 104095 ID: 383927

>>104091
>should probably have compiled a big 'splash page' introduction by now
GMing is hard work with little thanks, I completely understand how much time and effort it takes to prepare these things. If you want to set that on the backburner for now, I'm already rolling 2 characters, a third far away from the party, in an entirely new area you have to tailor to your world is a bit unweildly for you and the group as a whole. I still like ALphious as a character, but perhaps now is just not the right time, especially when you've got to make the ocean adventure as well.

>he should probably sign on with Marijke's crew
This of course would be up to the crew, but a large number of well armed adventurers with gold to spare and an aimless quest that will take them to new lands in search of gold and power, why, it almost sounds as if Stone was designed so that this would fit his needs to a T. As long as he's permitted to he'll sign up right away; if Marjike wants to roleplay any of that or pose it to the crew I'm more than happy to get into the nitty gritty as my favorite battle priest
>>
No. 104101 ID: 3abd97

>>104095
Recruitment really isn't much of an issue from a few points of view- we're hiring crew for the ship anyways, and we've successfully integrated people who were opposite sides of fights before. (Although not someone the group unilaterally attacked and drove off).

Not sure if Stone would realize who he's joining, although he'd certainly have a chance to catch on when he sees our ogre and archer.

Marijke got a look at his aura last time, so she'll recognize him, at least. Other people could put two and two together when they realize he's a leg-missing necromancer.

Are you going to try and get your leg back? We haven't sold that yet, I think.

If you can control undead other than zombies, the attic whisper might be of interest to your character.

Biggest potential conflict might be with Than, considering her opposition to the undead.
>>
No. 104103 ID: 74ad1d

>>104101
>chance to catch on when he sees our ogre and archer.
Stone doesn't have very broad horizons- aka all you ogres look the same to me. He'd be suspicious, but he never saw Than, hence his failed retreat. His major problem was that he couldn't see anyone and had to get to defensible terrain. The problem will be when he sees Lyrr. A awkward conversation with Captain Marjike and some help getting opium while he's still broke from the surgery caused by his last altercation with her crew, and he'll be happy to lend his spear to your crew. He's not that keen on his leg- it's not doing him much good now that it's not attached, and as you can see by how articulate his current necrotic joints are, he's not really in need of another leg. He confers his skill with the undead is as of today a relatively new thing for him. If it bothers other crew members, he is happy to discuss it with them, but unless you'd like to instill a stipulation into his signing on regarding the dead and subsequent control, he's not going to make any special accommodations. Co-exsistance with others who do not share your beliefs is an essential part of ones growth and journey as an individual, and all should strive to broaden their horizons and accomadate ideas. Or at least something that sounds like that, his accent makes him kind of hard to understand sometimes.
>>
No. 104107 ID: d41523

>>104101
>>104103
>highly recognizable by the party
>misunderstandings still not cleared up
>personal problem with arguably most unstable party member
>is broke
>wants a hit of opium before he'll join the party
>won't make special accommodations for necromancy
I think you're going to have to work a little harder than that to make it onto the crew. We're hiring, but we're not desperate. A not insignificant number of us are also pretty convinced you're an enemy who has attacked us at least once before, since that event ended without closure. Depending on who is present when you make your appearance, you may actually be aggressed on sight.

>biggest potential conflict might be with Than, considering her opposition to the undead.
While it is true Than is an actual Ghostbuster, it may be worth noting that Garaile is a divine warrior serving a god whose portfolio explicitly includes "destruction of undead". (See >>/quest/743292 )
>>
No. 104112 ID: 74ad1d

>pretty convinced you're an enemy who has attacked us
Hence the "one awkward conversation later transition"
If you'd rather RP meeting in the tavern or something similar in more than happy to though; what I meant by "wont make accommodations" is more along the lines of
A) I've got no undead in tow
B) I'm not going to be actively summon, creating, or attaching myself to the undead for the time being
C) You all attacked me in sight, ripped my leg off and thusly stripped me of most of my wealth and medicine. After its cleared up that no, I didn't attack you, it was just an unfortunate misunderstanding, Stone would like a small loan so he can get some drugs, which he will pay back once he earns some money
D) if the party want to make a stipulation that he won't go around commanding hordes of undead, all you guys have to do is establish that as part of the contract. He'll think you're close minded and afraid of the dark, but he has no money, no opium, and his food and water rations won't last a hell of a lot longer. He's desperate for work right now.
My main point wasn't that he'd be actively going against your wishes and making zombie soup at the dinner table; simply that he doesn't believe there's anything more wrong with animate bone and flesh than there is animated stone or metal. We all die in the end, what's a few more days of locomotion in the long run of a corpses life?
Philosophically he has some cultural and religious beliefs that don't match the party but he's polite and pretty down on his luck right now, in no small part to his last run in with your ogre. He's simply asking for some help getting back on his feet and in return he'll follow your rules and fight for you. Undead won't be a problem as long as long as Marjike makes a rule about it when she hires him on. If not, you guys will have to talk to her or fight and most likely kill Stone (which is okay, like I said I don't mind if people die as long as we're having fun). He's happy to spend hours discussing the philosophy of life and death and wear to draw the line with anyone who comes and challenges his beliefs.
>>
No. 104136 ID: a107fd

>>104112
>I'm not going to be [...] attaching myself to the undead

Funny you should say that, because Ulman Dark replaced the broken-off portions of Stone's petrified leg with the corresponding parts of an animated skeleton.
>>
No. 104137 ID: b1b9f9

We did note that, and if that is a problem for the crew then we're at a harder impass than I originally thought. Stone would argue that his leg should not be a problem since
A) your ogre is the reason his leg is currently more bone and less stone
B) no one would have an issue with his left leg, but his right is suddenly a problem simply because it's animated by magic rather than flesh? If you would be so close minded to disallow that on your pre-conceived notions of the world then perhaps a long term arrangement with your crew will not be needed. [spoiler] it's okay if religious difference block stone from joining up with the crew, I'll just hang onto Riv and let him work his way way back into food security in town, perhaps interact with the party again at a later date.
>>
No. 104138 ID: b1b9f9

We did note that, and if that is a problem for the crew then we're at a harder impass than I originally thought. Stone would argue that his leg should not be a problem since
A) your ogre is the reason his leg is currently more bone and less stone
B) no one would have an issue with his left leg, but his right is suddenly a problem simply because it's animated by magic rather than flesh? If you would be so close minded to disallow that on your pre-conceived notions of the world then perhaps a long term arrangement with your crew will not be needed. it's okay if religious difference block stone from joining up with the crew, I'll just hang onto Riv and let him work his way way back into food security in town, perhaps interact with the party again at a later date.
>>
No. 104140 ID: 3abd97

>A not insignificant number of us are also pretty convinced you're an enemy who has attacked us at least once before
I would point out this isn't the first time we've attacked someone, caused them financial loss, and then ended up recruiting them anyways.

We ended up parting on neutral terms with the goblins who betrayed us and I fed to spiders, the acolytes who were accessories to trying to sacrifice us now work for us, and Gunderbag and Rixxil previously worked for a group we basically assaulted and robbed (after they tried to cheat us).

In comparison, Stone didn't even get a shot off before we overwhelmed him and forced him to retreat in disarray. We have less an axe to grind with him than any of our other former enemies we recruited.

>conflict with Than and/or Garaile
That's a stickier point, although it might come down to what he's allowed to do.

Perhaps a simple injunction against creating undead?

There would certainly be a tactical advantage to being able to take control of undead already in the environment. If we're going to destroy our enemies anyways, why not compel them to destroy each other first? (I mean, we already employ offensive mind magic, and this would functionally be the same thing, except restricted to unholy abominations- theoretically less objectionable compared to what Marijke and Rixxil already do to people).

Stone's character wants to free himself of his curse, correct? Certainly seeking redemption, or turning the dark forces against themselves, might be appealing?
>>
No. 104142 ID: 716fdd

>>104140
>Perhaps a simple injunction against creating undead?
Stone his happy to oblige to that and more if the captain rules it so. His society has a big focus on hierarchy, and listening to the rules of the guy in charge is important to him. It's also important that Garaile and Than also be willing to listen to rules AKA if Marjike says it's okay for him to join up and control undead, then either they need to assume command of the group or respect the choices of their superiors and get over their bias. Basically, as long as Garaile and Than are okay with the rules Marjike sets, so is Stone

>this would functionally be the same thing
Stone agrees- he feels that much of the objections to his particular set of strengths is based on broken ideals without consistent internal logic. He's happy to debate with others in a friendly and polite manner- he does not blame them for their beliefs and knows he himself holds undeniable biases. It is part of existence, one should simply seek to broaden their horizons whenever they can.

>Stone's character wants to free himself of his curse, correct? Certainly seeking redemption, or turning the dark forces against themselves, might be appealing?
Stone elaborates that his curse is not related directly to his ability to control undead- that's new but he's kinda just Rollin with it. Four generations ago one of his forebearors was cursed to slowly turn to stone, and to pass this malady onto his children, and his children's children, and his etc etc you get the idea. He explains further that he was born the seventh son of a seventh son, and because of this happenstance he was burdened with a great power and destiny. He could both see and hear the four generations of ancestors who bore the curse before him. The curse tied them to their world, and they could not move on to the next until the curse on his family line was broken. They attached themselves to him as he was the only able body that could interact with them clearly and regularly. He has not known peace since birth, and seeks to free his family for their sales and his. Because of this he takes pride in releasing tormented souls from this plane as an act of mercy. Many undead however are simply flesh golems, void of soul and mind, simple constructs animated through a skillful and respectable art. He takes no more joy in destroying the dead than one does in being pitted against life threatening creatures of any kind. And for the sentient dead, he takes his task with an attitude of reverence and solemn duty, how one night when providing a painless death to a terminally afflicted member of your village. They deserve deserve freedom, but it is not an event that brings joy.
>>
No. 104147 ID: d41523

I'm going to have to ask JamesLeng for help with Garaile's stance on Stone's brand of necromancy. What does the Old God whose sacred number is 4, etc. etc. etc., think about Stone? Garaile will naturally also share that opinion.
>>
No. 104151 ID: b1b9f9

>>104147
Also please note any frustration or hostility expressed is in character at other game characters, not OOC directed at anyone. I just like to play difficult people apparently- I didn't even think of this as a potential problem when I was creating him or I woulda gone with Athalon.
Question for JamesLeng
A) can I call you James or Leng for shorthand, or is it kinda a package deal when it comes to you handle
B) if at some point I became incapacitated any threw someone else into the mix, if someone specializes in mounted combat like a cavalier or something if that nature, is an appropriately sized mount available upon start? I'm assuming not, but wanted to check to make sure, see if there's some way to get that in with the starting kit possibly
>>
No. 104156 ID: a107fd

>>104147
The Burning Hate makes a good power source for 'holy warrior' types, but in terms of moral guidance... well, comparisons could be made to the blind idiot Demon Sultan Azathoth (who is, for the record, not part of this cosmology). The Old God of the Sun destroys undead not because they're a perversion of some natural cycle, nor for the many and varied hazards they pose to the living, nor for any other comforting reason; no, He detests restless spirits and walking corpses for their inability to feel pain. How do you inflict purification-through-suffering on something that's categorically immune to torture, whether physical or psychological? You can't! So, just annihilate the useless thing and find another speck to play with.

>>104151
>can I start with a horse
Yes, indirectly. Rich bastard can start with a minor permanent magic item. Some sort of horse-retrieving whistle would be a valid option.
>>
No. 104162 ID: d41523

>>104156
??? So, am I suppose to attack anyone who doesn't feel pain, like Letkra? Or do I basically just completely ignore my deity's opinion and treat the Old God of the Sun as a glorified power dispenser?

>>104151
>>104156
>horse
You could also go soldier and just say your horse was stolen or slain in battle, and acquire a new one when you come into some money. You could even use that as a motivator for why you want to join the crew. Although you may find mounted combat is not particularly suited for a high-seas adventure, unless you can get a pegasus or some other winged mount.
>>
No. 104166 ID: b1b9f9

>>104162
My mount in mind is well suited to most terrain, a ship would be comical but not infeasible.

Regarding the no pain undead thing though, It's possible that Garaile has a crisis of faith- he was brought up that undead are evil- why? Or well for reason A. But when reason A starts applying to other things besides undead, or some undead don't fall under reason A, then the questioning of his upbringing begins. He is devout because he is a good man who does his best to do good things, correct? Mayhaps his God was his best method of doing good, but as he discovers more about the being behind the power, the flaws of his leader might start to trouble him. Character development is game development.

Alternatively, he can go the route of "I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand!" Who stands by his good nature and just doesn't allow for too much questioning or soul searching to disrupt his inner peace. He could also find that he believes retribution through pain is an important part of life. Straying from the path of the right is wrong, and one should be punished accordingly before being accepted back into the fold. A man willing to submit himself to pain in exchange for absolution truely is someone who seeks to right his wrongs.

Or, another route this could perhaps go, is that Garaile disagrees with some of the reasons he should do things, but still thinks they need to get done. Undead are an abomination- the only reason we destroy them instead of re-adjust them is because they cannot feel pain, they cannot truely repent for their misdeeds. But wether or not they can feel pain, they are still evil; no pain is just why they should be destroyed rather than shown the light. Not everything in the teachings is necessarily worth repeating, but the core messages are still righteous and should be adhered to.

It doesn't have to just be "wow my gods a dick so either I have to be one or I loose my powers" character development is a very engaging and worthy plot hook. This can be a lot deeper than the surface of "lepers deserve to die"
>>
No. 104167 ID: a107fd

>>104162
Garaile is not a paladin, and failure to adhere to a cosmic horror's moral strictures (or rather, to it's fundamental lack of mortal-compatible morality) will not result in the loss of supernatural powers derived therefrom.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PureIsNotGood
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightIsNotGood
It should further be noted >>96246
that the Old God of Glory, Healing, and the Sun is also, equally, a god of Darkness.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSacredDarkness
>>
No. 104168 ID: 3abd97

>>104156
>>104167
Man do I dig fucked up cosmologies.

>So, am I suppose to attack anyone who doesn't feel pain, like Letkra? Or do I basically just completely ignore my deity's opinion and treat the Old God of the Sun as a glorified power dispenser?
I think the way I would think of it is that Garaile was chosen for the depths of his convictions. He wasn't touched for doing / believing what was moral, but your strength of will, your certainty in your own actions was reciprocated.
>>
No. 104172 ID: a107fd

>>104151
>A) can I call you James or Leng for shorthand, or is it kinda a package deal when it comes to you handle
I'd prefer the whole thing. If for whatever reason you must refer to me with fewer characters, JAL or S_P would be acceptable. Ideally the former would be in some angular font, pale green, with the central character largest, while for the latter the only stipulation is that the underscore must not be omitted, unless a limited character set requires it to be replaced with the numeral 7. If you're waxing poetic, feel free to make overwrought oblique references to a Secluded, Serpentine Plateau, or the Apostle of the Architect of Ruination.
>>
No. 104174 ID: b1b9f9

>>104172
Don't have to shorten it, I'm happy to go with whatever your preferred handle is!
>>
No. 104180 ID: a107fd

>>/quest/751773
>The objection is... sort of a lawful evil logic kind of thing? (Not that I want to stamp a restrictive alignment system on here). Namely that the small bonus of Llyr's share isn't worth breaking the group's rules in a way that could be used to challenge or undermine her leadership down the line. Ripping off your own minions' benefit plan is right there in the evil overlord list!

This is why I like the (pre-3e) Exalted virtue system. Compassion, Conviction, Temperance, and Valor correspond remarkably well to Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos, but instead of a wobbly compass-needle, any given character has an independent rating from 1 to 5 (or, rarely, 0 or 6+) in each. Excessive temperance and conviction could make someone an alarmingly competent evil overlord, or a hardworking and incorruptible bureaucrat, or Hank Hill, depending on the balance of their remaining virtues and a variety of other factors.
>>
No. 104189 ID: d41523

>>/quest/752057
>crit fail applied to learning the kobolds' names, teaching them humish, and ensuring their rights
Welp, these kobolds are screwed.

>>104180
>exalted alignment
Out of curiosity, where do the current party members fall on this scale? Garaile seems to have a decent amount of all those things. Compassion for the powerless, conviction of faith, temperance in self-discipline, and valor in standing in harm's way. Meanwhile, Llyr seems to have none of those things except maybe valor. No compassion, no strong convictions, very little temperance, and valor only so far as a fool doesn't understand danger. On a Pathfinder alignment scale, I rate Garaile at Neutral Good, and Llyr at Chaotic Neutral.
>>
No. 104190 ID: 11a968

>>104189
This was really fun to think about actually.
Riv categorizes everything in the world into 2 groups: things that have power over her, and things that she has power over. She feels that knowledge is the best way to increase the latter and decrease the former, so she avidly seeks it in order to better equip herself against the world. For instance, her current biggest fear, something wich holds immense power over her, is her mortality. She has to play by its rules, and so she is currently seeking a way to free herself from its shakles and find immortality. The fewer rules that dictate what she can and cannot do, the better. The only rules she cares about are ones with power over her. So, accordingly, with 10 being high and 1 being low, I'd rate her conviction at 8, temperance at 4, compassion at 3 and valor at 4. Society and the world as a whole is trying to do her in in her own mind at least so she's determined to neutralize that threat first before it can kill her, and she's willing to do so by any means nessicary. Different iterations of her have fluctuated a bit in terms of alignment, but in this story and environment I'd say she's CN waxing on CE. She doesn't care about anyone but herself, has little to nothing in the ways of moral boundaries, and if it would gain her more than she would lose, she is more than prepared to kill, maim, or anything following that train of thought to protect herself and further her goals. There is only what has power over her, and what she has power over, and until those are balanced at a happy nothing and everything, she will restlessly pursue perfection
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No. 104200 ID: a107fd

>>104190
This is a remarkably Neogi-like attitude, other than being unleavened by sophisticated mercantile theories and rationalizations. "Doesn't care for anyone but herself" means thoroughly prioritizing Conviction over Compassion, or in D&D terms, pure CE with no 'wax on, wax off' caveats. Even typical ogres hold family loyalty as sacred.
>>
No. 104202 ID: b9aa79

>>104200
I have a general backstory and idea for a character, but each time I re-use them and make them in a new world they change and adapt slightly. In all forms she is ostracized by her village at a young age. Growing up without family, caretakes, any real loved ones or possessions to get attached to, her formative years didn't really grant her a wealth of interpersonal skills. She adoption and subsequent abuse by her master taught her everything she knows about how to interact with other creatures. She doesn't hold stock in the concept of good and evil, of ethnocentric moral compasses. No, if her experiences have taught her anything, it is that the world and it's inhabitants are selfish, cruel, and greedy, just in different forms. If she wants to stay alive and away from the subjugation of her past, she needs to be stronger than anything that can enforce rules on her. In the end, there is only the rules of power, and she seeks to ensure those rules benefit her at the expense of others, rather than the other way around.
In her original orientation she was taken in after being freed from her forced tutelage, by a fiercely loyal and extremely patient group of people that regarded her as their kin. She was taught that experiment on people in their sleep is not really an acceptable thing to do, and that society works much better if you live within it rather than against it. However, in this iteration of her character, upon being freed she was homeless, her only "family" left dead. She was forced to live on the streets to fend for herself, but her deformities barred her from much of society. or so I would assume at least She was then shortly drugged and enslaved again, stripped of her meager possession and locked into a cage to do the bidding of others. They had more power than her, and so she suffered. Her master had more power over her, and so she suffered. Society had power over her and she suffered. She is determined that she will learn from all this, and that it will not happen to her again. She is not actively malicious in the sense that she wishes to harm others. She takes no pleasure in others pain, but at the same times rarely feels regret or grief for causing it. No, those feelings can only get in the way, and she does her best to cordon them off. She firmly believes in the anarchy and the abolishment of government. her former master was quite the philosopher, and taught her much of the evil that society would try to bring to bear on her and himself, and how oppressive and stifling it is, how it impedes the progress of the rational mind etc etc She herself doesn't consider the neogi or her masters evil for what they did- she simply received the shit end of the stick in those circumstances. Moralities are false and ultimately selfish anyways, and the rules are deiced arbitrarily, and change from person to person. Rather than try to understand them, she is simply reserved to live by her rules, and ensure the shit end of the stick isn't in her corner ever again.

So yeah, I guess she's kinda an evil bastard in this world. She is still malleable though, and you my see inconsistencies in her personal philosophies once she creates life in the form of her familiar. I would definitely watch her though, especially if you hold a position of power. She has complicated feelings regarding certain members of the crew though, one of which is Letkra. She's not always going to act predictably, and might not always say what's on her mind. Just be aware that her character may seem to shift rapidly and radically; part of the whole "chaotic, no rules" kind deal. If one isn't aware of her own guidance system then it can be difficult to tell where she's going.
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No. 104282 ID: a107fd

>>Society and the world as a whole is trying to do her in in her own mind at least so she's determined to neutralize that threat first before it can kill her
Neutralize society and the world as a threat? The entire world? Is Riv on her way to becoming an omnicidal supervillain? That could be interesting...

Also, I was wondering about this, from the IC thread (3):
>> In comparison, she treats the rest of the crew, aside from letkra, as if they were beneath her and that even if she is not captain she is clearly superior and should be obeyed.
Why does she treat Letkra differently? And how does she act instead?

As far as Letkra's alignment... I think neutral good is what I'd be going for, and in terms of Exalted virtues.. not sure if I can put good numbers to it, but I think the comparative order would be Compassion, Temperance, Conviction, Valor? I haven't thought that through for sure, despite loosely basing elements of the character on a previous Exalted character.

More philosophically, Letkra doesn't have a very clear concept of mortality and the harshness of the world, but she's been raised in an environment where being nice to each other is the default and where there's not much to truly fight over, because needs are already met- she doesn't really get the idea of being desperate or true suffering. But she is inclined to be helpful and nice; it's less about denying what's going on, and more like being oblivious to how bad it can get.
>>
No. 104284 ID: 383927

I have seen the post, but I'm not sure if Riv has any input or would even think it in her place to talk over marjike on the subject of the wagon. So, acknowledging that there has been an update, but not sure what I would contribute at this point.
>>
No. 104290 ID: 383927

>>104282

>on her way to becoming an omnicidal supervillain

It's not so much that she want's to watch the world burn as it is society she's out to destroy. She's not really all about chaos and murder for their own sakes, she just sees civilization as a crude web of lies meant to oppress the people and she aims to abolish it. But yeah as we've said she's not exactly in the right frame of mind and even if her motivations aren't even she's not really a good person.

>Why does she treat Letkra differently? And how does she act instead?

I'd like to flesh it out more IC so I don't want to give away all her motivations, but from what you would have observed she's significantly less condescending and rude to letkra; not necessarily the deferential treatment she gives Marjike, who she views as her master essentially, but simply quieter and less abrasive towards her. She listens when she Letkra speaks, and doesn't do weird things like steal her blood. Essentially, she's more polite to Letkra than anyone else. Up to your character if she wants to pursue that further.
>>
No. 104291 ID: d41523

>>104282
>Letkra doesn't have a very clear concept of mortality and the harshness of the world, but she's been raised in an environment where being nice to each other is the default and where there's not much to truly fight over, because needs are already met- she doesn't really get the idea of being desperate or true suffering. But she is inclined to be helpful and nice; it's less about denying what's going on, and more like being oblivious to how bad it can get.
I really like this description actually, because Llyr has a similar status but nearly the opposite upbringing. He'd grown up in an environment where animal selfishness is the default and where everything has to be wrested away from nature, but his inherent physical advantages and healing factor mean he also never developed a very clear concept of mortality, nor ever experienced desperation or true suffering. His own obliviousness makes him inclined towards self-gratifying behavior above anything else.

Backstory-wise, I imagined him as being the child of some hermit fisherman and a rather unusual Catch of the Day who found her match and decided to stick around, thus being raised more-or-less completely detached from any civilized society. He would have learned Humish from his father, along with other useful tricks like tying knots, using spears and knives, and making his own clothes, while his mother taught him about the natural world in ways no human ever could and certainly would have been the source of his "law of the jungle"-type behavior. Eventually, he grew old enough to bid his parents farewell and set off on his own, to seek out excitement, adventure, and a mate for life.

>>104189
>I rate Llyr at Chaotic Neutral
Thinking more closely about it now, I think Llyr's particular hobbies and interests may be more accurately described as CE than CN. He doesn't actively pursue an evil agenda, but he doesn't have much he holds sacred, nor any sort of taboos regarding, say, eating people whenever he feels like it, although he still forms attachments just like anyone else. Also, just for the record, Llyr prefers fish meat over any other kind of meat, if given the choice, although he's just as likely to opt for "both" if they're both freely available.
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No. 104299 ID: 3abd97

>Neutralize society and the world as a threat? The entire world? Is Riv on her way to becoming an omnicidal supervillain? That could be interesting...
>She's not really all about chaos and murder for their own sakes, she just sees civilization as a crude web of lies meant to oppress the people and she aims to abolish it.
I guess Riv never reached the conclusion that society is what keeps the chaos and murder from getting you all the time.

Also, wow, did Riv pick a bad person to work for. If Marijke knew that, and actually believed there was a real chance Riv could accomplish the downfall of society and civilization writ large (instead of writing it off as the ramblings of a mad child), she'd be horrified.

As the social manipulator and the merchant, Marijke would probably be one of civilization's stronger advocates in our group of misanthropes. Wealth doesn't bring you real security or safety without some kind of social structure to wield it in, you need civilization on some level for trade, hell, even for piracy to work you need institutions of some kind to prey on and exploit. Same for social advantages and lots of other things- levers works better when they're tied into systems. Sure, war profiteering has its place, but war is more a shuffling around the players and who's winning. Not tearing the whole damn game down.

Nevermind that despite everything Marijke does try to think of herself as a good person, and "ruining civilization for everyone" is something she can very easily easily put in the "bad" column, emotionally.

(Of course, this is more broad- talking about the ideas of civilization and society. This is not to say the good captain could not potentially be turned against a specific civilization. We had a plot hook earlier that could have eventually lead to opposing the dracocracy. Which I would probably still put down in the "crazy" column at this point, but it is an option).

>>104284
Riv's a specialist, and Marijke hasn't been shy in consulting the mages and others where their knowledge would be relevant. Hopefully this would lead to Riv understanding she can speak up if she has reason to, but who knows.
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No. 104301 ID: 383927

>>104299
Yeah I drew some inspiration from the whole "raining fire" thing- she's not usually such a paranoid conspiracy theorist, anarchy plotting, unscrupulous child, but the elements just aligned in such a way that made me feel that was the way she'd turn out. I'm hoping that as things progress she'll grow as a character, maybe un-learn some of her master-slave behaviors and become slightly less evil as a person. I do like the idea if creating a anti-government black market group of pirates working to overthrow the dracoracy though- maybe we could finalize this campaign with Marjike taking her place as trade queen of her new federation, established in the wake of the fall of the drakes. That's just me personally though. I promise Riv's character is malleable and not stuck in her current less than tenable form
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No. 104302 ID: a107fd

>>104291
>Backstory-wise, I imagined him as being the child of some hermit fisherman and a rather unusual Catch of the Day who found her match and decided to stick around,

So, the rule-63 sequel to this? http://g.e-hentai.org/s/64b4518f52/512031-17 (NSFW, in case that wasn't obvious from the URL) Sounds about right.

>doesn't actively pursue an evil agenda,
>>104290
>not really all about chaos and murder for their own sakes,

In my understanding of the alignment system, sadism or pyromania or whatnot may correlate with evil, but such specific preferences are neither necessary nor sufficient. A good-aligned sadist might practice ethical BDSM, inflicting pain under controlled and consensual circumstances, to the long-term benefit of all involved. As for a good-aligned pyromaniac, you need look no further than the fireworks displays of Gandalf the Grey.
The key factor is, in economic terms, externalities. Violence always has costs. A (smart) neutral person tries to keep those costs from spilling over onto uninvolved parties, because sooner or later making a mess will come back around and cause more hostility. Don't shit where you eat.
An evil person doesn't make any effort to minimize the costs, only to ensure those costs fall outside the circle of people they care about. Shit just happens, so anyone who forgot to carry an umbrella had it coming.
A good person tries to minimize needless suffering even when dealing with sworn enemies, because they're people too. Don't shit anywhere but a proper latrine, situated such that it won't contaminate the groundwater.

>abolish civilization
So, Riv wants to topple the Drakocracy... and then what? Bring back the days when archwizards faced no limitations but their own ingenuity and the defenses of their peers? The divine interregnum of Avamerin's Heresy? Or maybe roll the clock all the way back to the Snail-Unicorn War? What does her perfect world look like?
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No. 104304 ID: 383927

>>104302
In that case this iteration of her is firmly evil. If you're not smart enough to get by then you're shit out of luck in her opinion. Other versions of her are definitely more neutral though; she can still be redeemed. Ex: She would gladly experiment on living creatures, but she finds kidnapping and force an unsatisfactory method of obtaining subjects. Rather than take a town by force and demand captives in exchange of the lives of others, she would prefer willing targets- people who might be willing to die if their families are well compensated, people who want a chance at supernatural abilities and strengths despite the risks, people who need a quick buck and are willing to do anything to get it, etc. Once someone entered themselves into service though, she would not hear any complaints. A willing victim is one with no grounds for complaints, and to do so anyways is disgusting. Still evil, but not AS evil as she could be

>and then what?
Well, that first one is actually pretty close. A lot of her ideals and world views are informed by her master, so if he lived through or knew of times before the dracocracy she would probably lean in that direct. Her general leaning is towards a world of unfettered advancement. Rules are okay as long as they don't impede her ability to conduct research and pursue her goals and interests. She will not however allow herself to be put on trail for breaking rules. SHe has lived under the codes and stipulations of others for far too long. She won't allow herself to be burned at the stake because of someone elses code of ethics. Her current goal as stated is immortality; once she breaks free from the laws of death nothing shall have jurisdiction over her. So, if there comes a time in this campaign where she somehow manages to see the current government overthrow, then she still has that to work towards.
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No. 104306 ID: 3abd97

>Marjike taking her place as trade queen of her new federation
Well that's pretty far from a bad end, Marijke's version of a good end would probably be something closer to "get rich beyond belief and retire to a villa".

>A lot of her ideals and world views are informed by her master
Past master or whoever her current one is?

For someone who seems so intent on tearing down the social order, Riv seems paradoxically committed to the idea of someone owner her. You'd think any revolution would necessitate throwing off her own bonds.
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No. 104312 ID: 383927

>>104306
>Past master or whoever her current one is

Her personality is majorly influenced by her previous master/adoptive father. She was cast out by her people at a young age, and taken in as the apprentice to a master alchemist. He was the only family she ever had, and while she resents her time as his slave/apprentice/daughter, she was young, feelings and roles get mixed up, so it was all kind of a jumble of role models for her he taught her everything she knows, not just about alchemy but about life and the world. He was a cruel man, but a very smart one and she respects his ideas. She was in his custody for 10 years, and that kind of long term abuse and brain washing is hard throw off, hence the support of his ideals, rather than their rejection. Deep down she's still afraid to disobey him, even if just ideologically. To clarify, when she last saw him he was dead at her feet, by the hands of wandering mercenaries. She doesn't entirely believe hes dead though, but whether or not he's still out there he no longer has jurisdiction over her. He was such a powerful figure in her life for such a long time though she hasn't really shaken herself of his influence.

As far as her current master is concerned, Marjike takes up that mantle. Sorry if that was unclear, but most of Riv's behavior towards her is due to the fact she considers her equivalent to a master, even if that's not really how their relationship actually works out, that's how she perceives it in her own little world.

>committed to the idea of someone owner her

Keep in mind she's been owned by someone most of her entire life. When she wasn't, she was left destitute, starving on the outskirts of civilization, no resources, barely able to scrape by and support herself. Even if she's not forced under the rules of a person, she's still subject to the laws of nature which she considers an equal bond. She doesn't really understand interacting with people without that sort of relationship. It's not that she WANTS to be owned- she just doesn't know anything else. The idea that she could enter into a crew of people and be considered an equal, be considered free to make decisions as she pleases, is so alien she never even considered it. If the captain realizes what exactly Riv is thinking, sits down and is like "Look my dude, I'm not your master." she honestly still wouldn't quite get it, although she might change a little, speak out and stuff more.
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No. 104317 ID: a107fd

>>104304
>if he lived through or knew of times before the dracocracy
Probably not. The Drakocracy is a sort of meta-government. Unnumbered kingdoms have risen and fallen within it's guidance, in the four millennia or more since Aguinbreke, author of it's founding principles, expired of life.

>She will not however allow herself to be put on trail for breaking rules. SHe has lived under the codes and stipulations of others for far too long. She won't allow herself to be burned at the stake because of someone elses code of ethics.
Dragons don't do show trials. If you pose a threat to some individual kingdom, let the king handle it; if he can't, apparently he wasn't a very good king, so they'll let you take over and see if you turn out to be a better one. If you screw with the economy in some way that results in them having less gold available to sleep on, they'll try to discourage that, but mostly in subtle and roundabout ways, or simply by asking politely. If you pose a threat to all of them at once, they'll do whatever needs to be done to end the threat. They simply feel the same way about progress toward mass-producible gunpowder weapons, or formal research into arcane magic, as you feel about having a knife pressed tight against your neck.

Immortality is fine; many spirits are naturally immortal and they get along in the Drakocracy as well as anyone. Toppling kingdoms and challenging individual dragons is fine as long as you're taking it seriously, accepting honorable surrenders rather than insisting on genocidal atrocities, and pursuing some comprehensible agenda that includes hooks for economic manipulation. If you want to be an eternal, invulnerable demon lord whose merest whim is beyond question, that's tolerable, so long as you mostly limit your depredations to some sort of pocket realm, as with Orcus.

You only really need to topple the drakocracy if you want to be able to say "I reserve the right to kill any dragon, anywhere, any time, with no warning, and furthermore to delegate this capability to others," and mean it, such as by adding Familicide http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html to your own spell list as well as a college's curriculum, or upgrading peasants to riflemen http://www.mangahere.co/manga/gate_jietai_kare_no_chi_nite_kaku_tatakeri/c006/16.html
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No. 104330 ID: 383927

>>104317

>You only really need to topple the drakocracy if you want to be able to say "I reserve the right to kill any dragon, anywhere, any time, with no warning, and furthermore to delegate this capability to others,"
>They simply feel the same way about progress toward mass-producible gunpowder weapons, or formal research into arcane magic, as you feel about having a knife pressed tight against your neck.

For Riv, these two statements contradict. She wants to overthrow the drakocracy, not because she wants to kill all dragons, but because she feels they are oppressive for disallowing the research into fields that could cause mass death and destruction, to other and to themselves. Riv doesn't really want to kill anyone, she just considers this silencing of knowledge a grater tragedy than the loss of life that might ensue from allowing it. She's the kind of scientist who says "yeah, the splitting of the atom may destroy the world and kill us all, but to hell with it if I'm not gonna try anyways". Her protest is a rather extremist view on censorship, and her deep love of knowledge. The pursuit of knowledge is the most noble, and should not be stopped because a tyrant fears it may be turned against them. Whether that's the dragons true motivation doesn't really matter to Riv, that's just how she views their actions and motivations .

As for the trial comment, that was direct towards her ideal world, saying she's fine if people make laws as long as they don't expect her to stand trail for them. I was not meaning to apply it to the current governments and power structures, or insinuating that it happened in her past. She's just not willing to value someone elses rules over her life and freedom.
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No. 104331 ID: 383927

>>753232
>"I'm calling 'I told you so' on a full on attack being a bad idea!".

Riv isn't going to address the comment in character, but I will say we weren't planning on riding griffins in over the ocean which, as noted, was a significant portion of the problem. Secondarily, if we avoided turning berserk and fighting each other because we know better than to look the umberhulks head on, I dare say we'd do even better. The eye thing could definitely have been a TPK, but she's still of the mind that if approached properly the endeavor could be a game changer for the party, quite literally. They just need a different game plan more suited to their strengths and the enemy's weakness
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No. 104340 ID: a107fd

The dragons aren't really oppressing new research, though. Apart from enriching themselves, they're mainly trying to prevent rediscovery of technologies which were already empirically proven to result in approximately everyone dying. Aguinbreke's Account of the Fall is independently-verifiable history, not alarmist dystopic speculation.

>>104331
>know better than to look the umberhulks head on
There are limits to how much such foreknowledge actually helps when one of them pops out of the sand like a jack-in-the-box. Either you reflexively look, and maybe go crazy, or you very carefully avoid looking and get sucker-punched. Being up in the air puts you out of melee range, so not looking should have been safe.
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No. 104342 ID: 383927

>>104340
Riv is more driven by emotion than she'd care to admit to herself or someone else. As far as she's concerned she is dictated by logic alone, and emotions are a sign of weakness found primarily in lesser creatures. She is, however, deeply flawed and heavily influenced by a much less scrupulous master. Some of her beliefs are rooted at a deeper, more ingrained level and while she may cover her ass with excuses, things like "if everyone is dying then they should really just be better at surviving" and "I'm not really part of the populous, the fall of our government and introduction of WMD surely wouldn't place me in harms way"

Basically what I'm saying is until she gets help realizing the flaws in her logic, and the origins of her beliefs she's going to struggle to change. She is not, however, inmalleable, and can hopefully soon! grow as a person.

Concerning the umber hulks, while I will admit that yes, their plan was sound and they just got shit on unfortunately, Riv will insist that had she planned it, the party would have come out much more successfully. Whether or not their is any truth to this is debateable.
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No. 104344 ID: 3abd97

>>104331
Sorry, Riv was enough of a pain belaboring that point that I couldn't resist. :p

The bulk of the problem would have been the new threats / defenses we weren't even aware existed when a raid was initially rated as prohibitive.

Anti-air defenses can be anti-personnel defenses in a pinch, too.
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No. 104345 ID: b9aa79

>>104344
Yeah as a player I wouldn't recommend rushing that. I'm gonna guess they're stronger than us, and they're preparing to take off, so it's probably not gonna be an option for long. I will say though, A) Riv still feels the ship is worth taking and that we can take it B) She will be very upset if she finds out the ship has left, and may even challenge marjike for leadership of the crew which would not go well should she take command. Just a heads up for you, because I really like playing my character faithfully which may put her against marhike depending on whether or not she's capable of growing and making connects etc. Basically, I'd keep an eye on her, and either work her until she sees the value in turning the other cheek and not being such a cold abrasive person, or friends close enemies closer style have a plan in place to neutralize her if she becomes a problem. Like I've said I'm okay if she gets killed, she's a real piece of work and it would be unreasonable for me to go "yeah, she may turn on you all and kill people in their sleep, but don't kill her you'll ruin my fun!" Player deaths are just as engaging as their lives, and I've got plenty ideas for characters so whatever happens happens. Promise I'll give you a heads up if she's going to to do anything that would have a large impact on your characters
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No. 104350 ID: 3abd97

>>104345
Well I figure we plan to be gone before the neogi leave anyways (unless things go very wrong), so the issue won't come to a head for a while. And it's not as if Riv is playing her cards close to her chest here- I don't really expect my character to be blindsided if this goes bad.

Marijke probably doesn't have the bandwidth to be the one to bring Riv out of her shell, though. I've got her fingers in too many pies already for her to make meaningful progress in rehabilitating the alchemist.
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No. 104352 ID: b9aa79

>>104350
Hence the two options- it's also not fair for me to say "Hey, you guys have to lay therapist for my shitty character or they're gonna kill you"
She developed differently than I was originally thinking, and the world and environment just lent it to her being kinda fucked up with extra evil on top. I promise on top of giving you a heads up if she's gonna do anything more drastic than risk death over some clockwork parts, I'll make sure she's actually useful and contributing without you all having to baby sit her. I did note that she wasn't going to build weapons for the ship unless asked, but honestly weapons are important and should get done at some point, so I'm not sure if it's too late to ask her to retroactively, or if we can just say it's a thing that gone done, but that might be good
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No. 104376 ID: a107fd

>>104345
> they're preparing to take off, so it's probably not gonna be an option for long

They were held up by shortage of platinum and loss of Riv's engineering skills.
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No. 104379 ID: dc887b

>>104376
Mm, I was assuming it didn't delay them long enough that they'd still be here after our 2 month wait + the subsequent round trip trip back; I hope I'm not being a dick here with the stuff I'm saying that Riv will/might do. Talking in person vs talking online is a different sort of beast, and I'm realizing my laid back demeanor and friendly attitude might be getting lost on the way from my computer to everyone else's. If I am being less than considerate please let me know and I will redouble my efforts not to steam roll and ruin everyone's fun
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No. 104499 ID: a107fd

I'll be using GURPS Mass Combat rules to resolve any ship-to-ship action, and it occurred to me that I should work out relevant stats for the giant octopus. First of all, based on CR, number of attacks, hit dice and so on it seems to be equivalent to a squad of amphibious warriors. Camouflage and coral reef adaptation gives it Recon. Extended reach with the tentacles and multiple AoOs per turn gives it Neutralize (Cavalry). Telepathic bond and ink cloud gives it Neutralize (C3I). Equipment quality is poor, since it has literally no equipment, but troop quality might be Good or even Elite.
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No. 104553 ID: d41523

>>104499
How large is the giant octopus, on a scale from human to leviathan? The size difference between the octopus and the opposing ship will hugely affect its effectiveness. An aggressive octopus driven to fight instead of flee should be able to take down a wooden ship up to one-and-a-third times its own size with relative ease, even before counting backup from our crew. Up to a certain size of ship, initiative would equal victory for our side. That said, a ship that is much larger than the octopus would be more or less invulnerable to anything it could do, and the octopus would be effectively rendered a nonfactor in the battle, short of perhaps killing people who fall overboard.

Ships are slow, unwieldy things, with poor control and lots of important parts that keep them functional. Cephalopods are fast in the water, dextrous, and increasingly powerful as they increase in size. (Giant squids irl can produce suction forces of over 116 pounds per square inch [800 kPa] with their tentacles.) Us being in control of a giant octopus basically makes us the scariest pirates ever. If it is big enough to have a meaningful impact on ship combat, then it's highly likely it could very well sink ships on its own, without needing our help. Frankly, if I had to choose between fighting a giant octopus or an actual squad of amphibious warriors, I'd pick the warriors any day.

You could just ignore the common-sense aspect in favor of hard numbers, but it could easily lead to the classic Civilization spearmen-destroying-tanks situation.
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No. 104602 ID: a107fd

>>104553
The octopus in question masses about as much as a draft horse, and has tentacles with seven yard (21') reach. It most likely won't capsize any blue-water ships by raw force, but it could reach out of the water to yank sailors over a railing, or rend planks and beams below the waterline with it's beak. Distinct disadvantage compared to an actual squad is that it's only got one mind, and thus can't focus on multiple tasks at once, outflank somebody all by itself, or compartmentalize damage and survive a head shot by having the second-in-command step up.

>spearmen destroying tanks
I don't see that kind of thing as a violation of versimilitude. In an environment where industrialization has advanced unevenly, a 'spearman' with a crude satchel charge and no regard for his own life might plausibly disable an armored vehicle, if it was first isolated by previous attrition or strategic negligence. Unarmored mobs have been known to overrun machine gun nests. Bad odds, but it does happen.
>>
No. 104606 ID: 3abd97

>>104602
The specific problem in Civ was the "bad odds" worked out to something like 1 in 5. So storming a nation of spear chucking primitives with mechanical cavalry could result in... rather appreciable and frustrating losses for a 1st world would-be conqueror.

Personally if I had that much of a tech advantage I preferred brainwashing the opposition into submission with a culture victory, or nuking cities and claiming the glowing rubble. (Where again, tanks weren't very useful, when the roads they needed for travel had been atomized).
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No. 104730 ID: a107fd

>>104606
Well, in GURPS Mass Combat, battle ultimately comes down to a series of opposed Strategy skill checks by the commanders of the two forces involved, with numerical, technological, etc. superiority providing modifiers on the checks.

A sailing ship like the one you've got has Troop Strength 4, representing the crew's ability to initiate or resist boarding actions equivalent to a squad of heavy infantry, but with no actual anti-ship weapons (cannons, reinforced ramming prow, etc.) it doesn't actually have the Naval class.

If you got in a fight with someone else who was similarly equipped, but didn't have an octopus, you'd effectively outnumber them at least 1.5x but less than 2x, (+2 to strategy), have total recon superiority (no effect on strategy but improves odds of seizing strategic initiative or even arranging an outright ambush), and probably C3I superiority thanks to Rixxil (up to +3 to strategy). If you had a mounted siege engine and they didn't, that's artillery superiority (another +3) and it might push the overall troop strength ratio past 2:1 (which would be +4 instead of the +2 for 1.5:1)

In a battle with less than 10 elements involved, each round is 15 minutes. If the check is a tie, both sides take 10% casualties (various strategies can modify this). Every 5% casualties is -1 on strategy checks for the rest of the battle. If one side wins by 1-3 points, the loser takes 15% casualties; 4-6 points, 20%; but the winner still takes 10% casualties unless they win by at least 7 points, when it drops to 5% (and the loser is taking 25% casualties). The only way to win with zero friendly casualties is to either beat the opposing commander's strategy check by 15 points on every roll, or by 14 or more with a Skirmish or 7 or more while using Mobile Defense strategies to reduce your own losses by 5% (skirmishing also reduces margin of victory by half), or by 8 points on an initial Indirect Attack and 10 points on subsequent Indirect Attacks since those multiply your effective margin of victory by 2x and 1.5x respectively. If the opponent retreats and you decide to regroup and tend your wounded rather than pursuing, your losses are reduced by 5%, and if you win at all they're halved, rounded down, so it's possible to take up to 10% casualties before driving the enemy off, or 5% before crushing them utterly, without any real permanent losses.

There's also positional bonus, which represents things like capturing defensible hills or walls, progression of maneuvers like flanking, etc. Long story short, early advantages tend to snowball, especially when you're willing to go on the offensive and seize opportunities.

Important characters other than the overall commander can provide a bonus to strategy with heroic actions, or a penalty with blunders. Taking more risks makes you more likely to help, but also more likely to get hurt. Every round in which the force overall takes any casualties, every important character has to check for 'misfortunes of war,' rolling at base skill 5 for 5% casualties. "Success" means an injury, and "critical success" means a choice between either being captured, or horribly maimed and maybe killed.
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No. 104957 ID: b9aa79

I love the GURPS combat system- at least what I've seen of it. Until you explained all of that I really had no familiarity or idea of how it worked, but it's a really intriguing system and gets me excited to play

I've been thinking about Riv's tinkering-on-the-fly ability we talked about while creating her character- I haven't been in combat with her much and haven't gotten a chance to try it out, I was wondering if you'd be able to expound on how exactly you imagine that working and what it's sort of limitations are and such
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No. 104982 ID: a107fd

>>104957
Mainly based on the Quick Gadgeteer advantage, which (as demonstrated by bushbots in Ultra-Tech) is actually two advantages: one which reduces penalties to engineering rolls for inventing, and also makes it possible to invent things more than one tech level ahead of their time, and a second advantage which makes it possible to build things faster than would normally be possible, particularly with substandard or improvised tools and materials.

Girl Genius has many examples, but two of the most relevant are here http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040512 and here http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121114 (and the following pages).

Notable constraints:
1) It's fast like improvisational poetry, not like sprinting or sword-fighting. In the first example, Gil needs to buy Agatha some time, she can't just work in the middle of a melee.
2) You still need SOME relevant tools. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061215 "I don't have any instruments, I...I can't..."
3) Materials. You want to build something big and expensive, you're gonna need big, expensive parts, and even then it's going to be slower. If you want to do it in a hurry, that'll be a lot easier if somebody else already did most of the work. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20150406 "Even she couldn't build something like this in less than a day!"
4) Last but not least, you still very much need the relevant skills. Agatha is a stronger spark overall, and better than Gil when it comes to clanks and death rays, but Gil is better than Agatha at flying machines and medical stuff because he's had chance to study those fields at length. Riv's definitely specialized in organic chemistry as relevant to her immortality project, and she's got that clockwork familiar, and was a vital contributor to rewiring a skyship, and managed to refit a small spring-based siege engine... but how much practical experience does she have with higher-energy inorganic chemistry? Or, say, optics? Making glass with just the right impurities to correct for spherical and chromatic aberration is surprisingly tricky, and vitally important to avoid a blurry, eyestrain-inducing mess. She'd know where to start, since professional alchemists are expected to be able to make their own lab equipment, including glass clear enough to distinguish the color of what's inside, and she might be able to get lenses cooled off and ready for installation within a thermodynamically-implausible time constraint, but that's not the same as the mastery of craft needed to do it right.

Tools and materials both mostly come down to money. If you want big money starting from nothing, your best option is to plunder ancient ruins at risk to life and limb. Lots of interesting stuff down there, even apart from the obviously salable treasure. Classic Exalted adventure "the invisible fortress" talks about the value of adamant blades which can be extracted from various trap mechanisms: they're actually too brittle to be good general-purpose swords, but make superb cutting, scraping, and grinding instruments for various commercial and industrial applications.

If you already have at least nine trustworthy friends, a small army, and a few thousand gold to spare, the way to get real money in this setting is to capture at least a hundred square miles of territory and then collect taxes. Want me to summarize the rules for that, too?

Overall, though, gadgeteering shouldn't really be something you're doing IN combat, so much as something that happens just outside an actual fight, changing the context and objectives thereof. Hold 'em off for a few minutes so I can finish this thing to seal the entrance, fetch the gem off that huge statue the cultists are guarding, let's go back down that hallway with all the traps so I can dig another antediluvian 9/16" sprocket out of the trigger mechanisms, that kind of thing.
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No. 104986 ID: 3abd97

>You know. we could just chuck it all and turn to piracy
You sir have quite the knack for picking particularly apt references from long-form comics.
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No. 105002 ID: a107fd

One hex is 95 square miles. On open land or water, this usually means one cell on a hexagonal grid that's 12 miles across the flats (13.4 miles corner to corner). In caverns, nevermind exotic non-Euclidean territories, it gets more complicated.

One credit is economically-significant goods and services worth, in GURPS terms, a bit over $10^6. If you're setting up out on the frontier, without draconic sponsorship, you can play fast and loose with the paperwork, and make a lot of grandiose but technically non-binding promises to attract the long-term ambitions of hard-working heroic idealists, and thereby acquire such resources for as little as 1000 gold in actual cash up front. Once things are more established, with bureaucratic inertia and corruption and seasoned professionals being paid what they're really worth, the price goes up to 4000 gold per credit... but generating those credits through farms and trade routes and so on is no more difficult than before, and if you're inclined to plunder the treasury and vanish in the night, or squander it on an awe-inspiring personal panoply, or otherwise convert it to dense portable wealth, one credit can at that point be converted to two thousand gold.

That's why dragons are so willing, even eager, to provide sponsorship. They spend, say, fifty thousand gold setting you up, and then when you're all established ask for those fifty credits back, and they've doubled their money without even charging interest!

Anyway, prices.
1 credit: claim a hex. Has to already be explored and major monsters chased off, but that could potentially be accomplished in a day or two, depending on terrain type. This represents setting up all the things like more detailed maps, road signs, regular patrols, and tax assessments, which collectively make the difference between wilderness and territory someone can actually control.

up to 12 credits: clear and level a single square mile of land for a town or city. Cost varies by terrain type. Just one for plains, two for hills, four for sandy desert or forest, eight for cavern, rocky wasteland, or swamp, twelve for jungle or mountains.

12 credits: Build, supply, and staff a watchtower. Core function is to let a single guard keep an eye out for fires, invading armies, and suchlike, by providing a clear vantage point above obstacles. Since sight lines go both ways, might as well put a flag up there so everyone has a reminder of who's in charge poking out of the horizon. It's also a safe place for patrols to spend the night and resupply, and reasonably defensible against bandits or rioters or wild animals. Not much point setting up more than one per hex, except as part of a city.

24 credits, or 12 to upgrade a watchtower: build, supply, and staff a permanent fortified encampment, big enough to house a hundred-man cavalry troop and support staff. Smallest artificial structure that could pose a credible challenge to siege engineers, rather than being immediately smashed to flinders or burned down as a watchtower would be. If you want more defenses than this in a single hex, camp followers are going to expand and diversify into secondary and tertiary businesses, so you might as well lay out a walled town properly.

Each hex of territory, each square mile of urban development within that territory, and each isolated fort, costs another credit per month. This upkeep cost is mostly food, so it can be offset by farming and fishing, but farms and fisheries have to be built first, for 4 credits per hex. Fishing reduces upkeep by 1 per hex, and can be set up in any hex with a significant amount of water. Farming is 2 per hex, or 3 if within one hex of a city with a particular infrastructure upgrade, but can only be set up on hills, plains (half price), and sandy deserts (double price, and requires a water supply).

Ah, but how do you make cave, mountain, and forest hexes pay for themselves? Mines, quarries, and sawmills of course. They cost 6 credits per hex (half in woodlands) and don't merely offset upkeep, but produce a credit per hex per month (and provide other bonuses) which is added directly to the treasury. Surplus food just goes to waste... unless you've built a granary in one of your cities to store it, or established a trade route to sell it elsewhere.

The really fun part of the system, though, is cities. Each of those square miles is divided up into thirty-six 750' square blocks, which can then be filled with buildings, from humble tenements (1 credit per lot), through various commercial, cultural, industrial, governmental and/or military structures, up to majestic castles (54 credits), cathedrals (58 credits), palaces (108 credits), and universities (78 credits) which occupy 4 blocks each and can have very far-reaching effects.

Where an individual character has fortitude, reflex, and will saves, a kingdom has Economy, Loyalty, and Stability. Just about everything modifies at least one of those stats. Where a character had hit points, a kingdom has Unrest, which goes from 0 to 100 in increments of five. Every increment of unrest penalizes all three kingdom stats by one. At 55 Unrest or higher, hexes start getting de-claimed. At Unrest 100, you're not running a kingdom anymore, just standing on a balcony watching the riots escalate.

Every month, the ruler and senior advisors have to spend at least seven days performing administrative work and otherwise doing their jobs. During this time. somebody rolls a Stability check. If it succeeds, Unrest decreases by 5%, or if already zero, you add an extra Credit to the treasury thanks to pure civic-mindedness and popular gratitude for a nation well run. If it fails, unrest increases by 5%, or by up to 20% on a critical failure.
Then you pay upkeep. If this leaves the treasury below 0 credits, somebody somewhere is going hungry, so unrest increases by 5%.
Then you check whether the penalty from Unrest has pushed any of the three stats into the negatives. For each one it has, add another 5%.
The Enforcer, or Minister of Hospitality, or whatever you want to call the job of formally dishing out punishment, can decide to reduce unrest by 5% by applying harsh measures which risk permanently damaging Loyalty, especially if it's already low.
After all that, and some other stuff. roll 3d6+Economy and divide by three, rounded down. That's how many credit you gain from collecting taxes.

Cheapest way to reduce unrest is to build a sturdy wall (2 credit per linear mile, -10% unrest per square mile of town adequately enclosed) or houses (3 credit and -5% per lot, or 2 credit per tenement lot upgraded... but building those tenements in the first place adds 10% unrest per lot). Mostly, though, houses are just there as prerequisites to support other businesses. Guard barracks, monuments, an orphanage, public park, or small shrine all cost 4, 6, or 8 credit and occupy a single lot, reducing unrest by 5% when built and providing some other persistent bonus. Adding a watchtower or upgrading it to a fort reduces unrest by 5% and provides greater benefits, and some more expensive buildings reduce unrest by 10% when built, or even 20% for a Castle or Cathedral, but generally you want to be careful about accumulating it in the first place.

So, if you, say, wanted to recolonize Rook's Vineyard, first you'd need to somehow neutralize (not necessarily slay, but at the very least come to an accord with) the Thing Under The Lake which previously depopulated it, and explore the immediate vicinity of the lake, which counts as a forest hex with a river. If you were working on the cheap, you could claim that territory for just 1 credit, and then, assuming competent but unexceptional leadership and a bit of luck, bring in 3 or 4 credits in taxes and 1 in goodwill the first month. Spend 3 for a sawmill and 4 for a fishery as soon as possible, they'll pay for themselves before you even get started on the actual town. Of course, until you get some real infrastructure built, your legitimacy as a government is riding a razor's edge, where even a small and transient penalty could set off a death spiral of unrest.
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No. 105016 ID: dc887b

>>105002
Honestly that sounds like a game and a half in it if itself, and it's one I would love to play if we get the opportunity this game. I do have a couple questions though

So, like PC stats I'm assuming city stats rest somewhere between 3-18 normally, would that be right? Are there negative and positive modifiers for having them be lower or higher, aside from collecting extra money?

Also with unrest it seems as though there must be a base line minimum that it can't go below based on your buildings, would that be correct? So if you have a few tenements and a couple squares of wall then maybe your natural unrest is 15% and other things can raise or lower it but not below that point. Or does the standing building balance add to unrest each turn? So the sum of all you factors that increase and decrease unrest actively contributes to unrest every month. That would be cool but with the amount of things that increase unrest vs the amount of things that decrease it seems to me to suggests that that particular method would be very difficult to manage and go down the drain quickly

Or is it like a one time penalty or + that simply serves to limit expansion? In that case you would only want to build so much a month because too much pushes unrest through the roof in order to get the necessary infrastructure and housing to get a population worth taxing. That method seems interesting but as a whole much easier to balance and more of a slowing mechanic than an ongoing game one if there aren't long term penalties for growth

Another question is obviously in real life more citizens means more resources. More people are available to act as soldiers, laborers, traders, more people to bring in business and conduct it within your property, and importantly more people to tax. Does expanding your citizen base add to your economy score either directly or indirectly? Does it affect your other scores in difeeent ways?

All this being said and done though, if Riv the Anarchist recognizes that she can gain steady income via laying claim to a property, she might be inclined to take a loan from her draconic overseers and stake her claim somewhere in the world so that she can passively afford her more expensive hobby. Nothing cramps research like having to sell anti-wrinkle elixirs and hair growth serum for vain shortsighted people with money to burn
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No. 105049 ID: a107fd

>>105016
>So, like PC stats I'm assuming city stats rest somewhere between 3-18 normally, would that be right?

No. They start from zero and can go arbitrarily high or low based on leadership, infrastructure, and other modifiers, but a functional kingdom will generally keep all three somewhere above the sum of it's total controlled hexes + square miles of urban development.

>Are there negative and positive modifiers for having them be lower or higher, aside from collecting extra money?

Yes, lots. Economy is the big one for collecting money, while Loyalty and Stability are mainly rolled for avoiding or recovering from various problems.

>Also with unrest it seems as though there must be a base line minimum that it can't go below based on your buildings, would that be correct?

No. Unrest from buildings is a one-time thing, like hit point damage, You can build a block of tenements, gain 10% unrest, and then dissipate it over the next couple months as people get used to living in squalid conditions, bringing you back to 0. Then, later, when some other problem comes up, you can upgrade the tenements to proper houses and reap gratitude. Apart from the monthly stability roll, though, unrest reductions below 0 go to waste; fortifications and prisons don't help so much when the people already feel secure.

>Does expanding your citizen base add to your economy score either directly or indirectly?

Every block of developments in a settlement is about 250 people, and many of those buildings add to economy. On the other hand, if you're focusing on, say, military or religious stuff, that's not going to rake in the cash, at least not directly.
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No. 105059 ID: 3abd97

>>105002
Hello spreadsheet civilization game.

Interesting looking, but yeah, that's a whole nother game.
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No. 105063 ID: b9aa79

>>105049
Gottcha, so it's less about managing unhappiness and more of a way to slow growth would that be correct? Or am I not really understanding the system? Because with a one time penalty it just seems to me that if you build a tenement block, wait a few months and build another one, it's very hard to lose control unless you are highly unfortunate with your unrest rolls. In pathfinder I'm used to bonuses being awarded incrementally past ten, and detriments applied as points go below ten. If city saves start at 0 and gradually get higher and higher without a real cap as to what can be achieved, what's the difference between say a 0, a 5, a 10 and a 20? Is city management primarily a method for gathering cash or can you do other more world altering things with large settlements? Could one make a particularly powerful trade city and begin to change the economy of other ares for a larger scale plan? Can you create a territory and more easily foster an underground market? Or even create policies so that very few things are illegal and what would normally be a black market is just normal trade? Or is that level of micro-management not really possible?

I'm wonder things in terms of say, creating a bustling city and then just getting rid of all the government in order to create a large scale influx of immigration into other settlements? Or take a strong enough hold on the economy of other areas by trading vital goods like lumber and stone and metal and grain that you can essentially turn the flow on and off like tap water, forcing interconnected areas to grow in unrest and possibly even collapse on themselves?

It's interesting to think of creating a settlement or area that has a global effect on our world in the same way our characters can grow powerful enough to have a significant impact on a local system like a dungeon

>>105059
It is a different game, but considering we're playing online and such they're both within the same world and affect eachother- playing civilization doesn't mean one has to stop dungeon delving yanno? I understand the technical aspects are not as fun for everyone else though so it makes sense if you all are not particularly interested in the county developing sim I for one am highly interested in both parts of the game though and if Riv gets an opportunity she may very well seek a loan to get the capital needed to create such a space.
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No. 105077 ID: 3abd97

>>105063
It's more that the scale is different. Interpersonal relationships and social dynamics and politics on the scale like we're playing with now become kind of irrelevant when you're operating on the physical and time scale of the function of societies and civilizations.

I'm not really interested in retiring from character development to play that game right now.

Also Marijke doesn't have the right ambition to run a city state or whatever scale we'd be on. She wants to get rich enough to live in the lap of luxury- sitting pretty inside a system, not trying to take charge of one. She's not actually motivated by power or authority.

Riv can certainly pursue that as a long term goal, although I dunno if Marijke would really want to stick around in territory the unstable little mummy was running.
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No. 105087 ID: 445ab7

>>105077
Of course- and I imagine whether she wants to or not, it's probably best not to be in the area Riv controls. I'm guessing it's about the scale of a county, with multiple cities in it and it's own taxes and municipal government, which is part of a State loosely overseen by the Dragons although that's complete speculation on my part. The assumption being that you can't run a country that takes more than a few weeks to travers very effectively, so the size of a regular state would be my guess for the dragons realm, with territories being like counties within the state. And I was thinking we as adventurers just birth a month building a ship- there's plenty of times where we change the pacing from weeks to seconds depending on what's going on right now. My assumption was that even if one of us was running a settlement that we could still play the rest as normal, and the settlement only comes into play when relevant, rather than changing the focus to the settlement and adapting the rest of the game to suit it. I'm fairly certain I'm in the majority though when it comes to looking forward to and being interested in that aspect, so I don't intend to pursue anything that would ruin everyone else's fun. I'd just say it's something I'm keeping in mind right now. Even if Marjike doesn't wanna govern anything, getting paid royalties for something as simple as a tavern without having to do work is a pretty sweet gig. You don't have to want power to recognize that owning the property means lavish lifestyle and hassle free money essentially once it's set up and self governing. Just seems to me like a merchant would be much more interested in gaining her wealth by trading rather than risking her life in a dungeon but I may be misunderstand the motivators that drive Marjike. I would imagine though that this system lends itself towards easy monthly income with low risk and low hassle costs to maintain, meaning you can more than pay for a fleet of ships with your monthly taxes and keep all your treasure for yourself. This little mummy is gonna run around your boat for a little while first though before she gets any big ideas about running a settlement
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No. 105090 ID: d41523

>>105002
>>105077
Garaile's long-term dream is to found a nation, but having seen this wall of text, I can say with confidence that Garaile will never survive long enough to realize that dream. Not if I have anything to say about it.
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No. 105102 ID: a107fd

I lifted the kingdom-building system straight from Pathfinder. I'd be doing all the math on my end, just presenting relevant options as they come up.

>>105077
>not interested
>>105090
>would rather die

Then either go back to the dungeon, or get in your ship and gimme a roll to navigate around the reefs toward the coven's probable location, or do SOMETHING. You're back in town, and rich as shit, but don't really have any sustainable income stream. One way or another, it's time to seize the initiative on a more strategic scale. If you can't remember what your options are, I ask that you re-read the IC threads with an eye toward potential plot hooks.
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No. 105104 ID: 383927

Quest towards the bottom of page 3 currently. When I mentioned Riv trying to get info from Gary, it was made under the assumption that this is sort of our last chance to do anything on land before we head out to sea. Does Marjorie need to make the order to sail away, or do we wait for other factors before leaving? If I remember correctly the last hook said we were 3 days from completion of the boat so there's still time to do some stuff in town if one wants
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No. 105113 ID: 3abd97

>>105102
Sorry, I thought we were discussing future hypotheticals, not right now. You're discussing mechanics that have a basic functional unit of $10^6, which is more than I understood us having, and require setting up to control territory, when we just spent a bunch of wealth and effort on almost the opposite (the ability to travel freely).

>so go do something
Wait it was waiting our input? I thought.... *checks thread* oh right I had no idea where to go with that conversation after the questionable connection between spacial weirdness and Garaile's ability was raised, and I guess no one else did either. I suppose we can try and just move on. I'll go write something.
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No. 105141 ID: f24a75

Just getting clarification- did we leave and arrive or are you just warning us what kind of questions to ask in the future? I didn't see us roll for travel events or anything so I wasn't sure exactly where we are right now
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No. 105142 ID: f24a75

Wait, I'm a bit confused- did we already set sail and arrive? Or was just just advice as to what kinda questions we should ask once we're there?

Also Marjike, I know it was a little while ago irl but there was still that incident with your amulet and the arrow and some amount of time travel and weird nightmares. I know we got the arrow head out, but it still might be worth ascertaining what happened
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No. 105151 ID: 3abd97

>Also Marjike, I know it was a little while ago irl but there was still that incident with your amulet and the arrow and some amount of time travel and weird nightmares. I know we got the arrow head out, but it still might be worth ascertaining what happened
Already tried investigating the weird arrow-amulet link, didn't really get anywhere with it. It was my expectation that understanding currently lies outside our grasp, until we find additional resources or unless we're willing to sink a large amount of research into it. (Which is kind of boring for the rest of the party and we just spent a bunch of time of the ritual to fix my pet psychic bug-monster).

The literally bloody nightmare I'm mostly willing to write off as a traumatic level up event- as far as magic seems concerned this seems to be a strait up cosmic horror setting. Risking your safety and/or sanity for power seems to be how it goes. (Whether or not the implications that the arrow is still coming, just time displaced, is true, literal, metaphorical, psychological, or representative of some kind of spiritual damage, I don't know).

Might be worth having Stone take a look at it, now that he's here? If it trapped the spirit or soul of the bear Than killed, and the bow is tied to her soul, he might be able to glean something useful from that as the spiritualist / necromancer.

>Wait, I'm a bit confused- did we already set sail and arrive? Or was just just advice as to what kinda questions we should ask once we're there?
I thought we hadn't left yet either, although I am being warned about exact wording now.
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No. 105171 ID: 3430e2

>>105151
Yeah I was just saying because it's beyond us right now the coven might be that edge we need. Stone will be happy to look, I'll roll for it tomorrow

Also, just wanted to put it up for discussion, because of Rivs unnatural physiology, I would think it makes sense for things like humidity and to a greater degree salty ocean air to have an affect on Riv. How pronounced do you think it should be everyone/are you going to say it will be as the DM (question addressing both Jamesleng and the rest of the party) also did Riv sparring for an hour every day these past few months have a noticeable effect on her, Garaile or the kobolds? Did her alchemy stand in the market square have a net affect on finances? I was assuming it would allow her to break even and cover the cost of her daily experimenting, but wasn't sure what your ruling would be.

I was under the impression we would start a new thread upon the completion of the ship but it seems we've moved past that a bit. Do we all want to ask our questions and then decide on a plan of action and open up the new thread there?
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No. 105177 ID: a107fd

>>105171
>Do we all want to ask our questions and then decide on a plan of action and open up the new thread there?

That's my thinking at this point, yes. New thread should be a new scene, new sense of momentum, and it needs a new piece of art to start it off.
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No. 105192 ID: 3abd97

Um. Wait. Are we still doing one by one wishes / questions, or one for the group? In the latter case, I guess what Garaile asked is a quest hook to keep us all in the money (even if that leaves several people without answers to burning questions). In the former case... Garaile used his question for Marijke?

>Yeah I was just saying because it's beyond us right now the coven might be that edge we need. Stone will be happy to look, I'll roll for it tomorrow
My response was going to be "I didn't think a potentially once in a lifetime oracular favor was worth spending answering that" but asking for wealth has apperently already been covered, so maybe.
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No. 105196 ID: 3430e2

>>105192
A very good point- one does have to prioritize, I just wanted to bring it up in case it wasn't on your radar. There was mention of further favors however; we might be able to trade tit for tat with the coven again later on which I think is good news.
I'm under the impression it's one favor per crew member. Perhaps not though- we'll see what the GM says. Keep in mind favors don't have to be questions. You could ask the coven for help unblocking a trade route, or to train you in something, but I think their forte is scrying or something of that nature so their disposed to information based services. A favor could be as simple as scratching your back or lending you a 20 though.

Also just for clarity I know I asked a discussion based question in the main thread- this was purposeful because it's being asked out loud IC where Marty could hear and possibly weigh in, and can also hear any musings or answers. Riv is outwardly and openly skeptical that the coven and their lackies are not harboring any malice; basically she's not hiding the fact that she's assuming the coven may try to kill them if they can gain from it. So in line with that I figured it should be in the main thread and that Marty should have a chance to correct or confirm should he so choose
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No. 105205 ID: a107fd

>gunpowder
Don't call up the director of the CIA and ask about "how to build nuclear weapons without the feds finding out." Sure, there's a good chance she'd know, but she's not gonna tell you, and she IS gonna tell somebody else that you asked.

>>105192
One question each. Of the acolytes, only one of them participated in the raid, and they agreed to spend the question on either confirming the lack of pursuit, or outflanking that pursuit.

>potentially once in a lifetime oracular favor
Nah, they've got loads of errands and quests queued up to earn further favors, especially now that you have some resources invested in traveling long distances with heavy loads of cargo.
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No. 105280 ID: b9aa79

>he was found naked, covered in slime and appalling lacerations, inside his apartment, far from the front lines
I, out of character, loved whatever that description of Uncle Petros. Whatever was going on in life, that was a wonderful little bit of flavor. As for the amulet arrow situation. that's an interesting situation. Witches said not to worry though, so i think we can probably trust them. Unless the cauldrons tendency to lead towards tragedy is misleading us, but hey, what can you do. It doesn't seem that Marjike is that worried

After I get the roll result for Riv's mage sight I'll respond with her question
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No. 105292 ID: 3abd97

>It doesn't seem that Marjike is that worried
Yeah, not really. Too bad I didn't get anything more concrete out of the oracular examination of the object (like what it might be useful for now), but I'm hoping looking up the material they identified it as will yield something.

Having an arrow in temporal orbit around myself does make me wonder about ways that might be weaponized.
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No. 105391 ID: a107fd

>>105292
>>105280
Sorry this wasn't more clear. As far as Riv and the coven can tell, Marijke's yasal amulet is just exotic scrap at this point. The material is ideally suited to containing spirits, but a round-edged disk engraved with that particular geometrically intriguing spiral groove doesn't have the flat facets and sharp angles needed to let such spirits in and out. It's like a vault or jail cell with the key missing and the lock rusted shut. Most obvious application would be to take it to a gemcutter and break it up into appropriately-shaped pieces, but then they'd probably be too small to be good for much.

That's just a direct examination, though, not a comprehensive survey of associations, sympathies, and contagions. It's almost certainly linked to Than's bow somehow, but I figure she'd be reluctant to cooperate with the extent of soul-groping needed to fully confirm.
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No. 105397 ID: 0db520

>>105391
Sorry I think there was a misunderstanding, she was examining Marty's water walking spell; she's still going to get her question but I nervous about being in open water, something I hope is understandable
>>
No. 105464 ID: b9aa79

>>105397
*is nervous
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No. 105531 ID: a107fd

The current continuity of "Please do not [T]ake these Organs" will not be updating further until I get my head back on straight, and Tunic stops complaining. It had a good run, I'd be willing to pick it up again someday or try a reboot, but lately it's been drifting toward "joyless chore" and that just doesn't work.

I've got another quest in the works. Would be started already, but it needs art that I can't do at all, and Mitsukara can't seem to get around to. Mostly just 8-bit sprites, sort of a FF1 thing, although honestly I'm not going to be picky about style if somebody manages at least a panel per week. Starting to understand how Rob Liefeld's ability to deliver on time let him get away with so much. Any volunteers?
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No. 105532 ID: b9aa79

>>105531
Sorry, not a capable artist. Sad to hear that running the quest is becoming a chore, but I understand. I wish you luck in your future endeavors
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No. 105536 ID: d41523

>>105531
Sorry you felt I singlehandedly killed your quest. Even though I had complaints, I still enjoyed being a participant. I feel like we could have talked and worked it out if it were any other medium.

Hope your next quest goes better for you.
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No. 105537 ID: 3abd97

>>105531
Rip.

Oh well, thanks for running, I had fun, and the dice managed to throw an entertaining combination of great successes and failures. Personally, I'll count it as mission success, since my character made it out of the dungeon alive, got rich, and provided nothing goes wrong, is in a position to get richer. All she really misses out on this way is getting to claim to spell ranks and see what goodies this system has to offer.

For what it's worth, I think the setting / lore was fantastic. A lot of fun, even if the communal player model slows things down.

>Any volunteers?
I'd consider it, if I didn't have half a dozen projects I'm badly behind in right now. FF1 tier sprite imitating is pretty much as high as my digital art skills go.

What's the premise? You might have better luck attracting someone if they know it's subject matter they're interested in.
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No. 105551 ID: a107fd

>>105537
>What's the premise?
>>/draw/31628

>FF1 tier sprite imitating is pretty much as high as my digital art skills go.

Good enough for me!

>half a dozen projects

Basically everyone I know is some flavor or other of miserable, impoverished wreck, so my current plan is to have several different people working on various parts of the art, then do the final assembly myself. Minimizes bottlenecks by way of redundancy, and you don't need to worry about committing to see the whole project through, because when something more important comes up, or you just lose interest, others can pick up the slack. Big list of 'contributing artist' credits once it's all ready to go.

Next item on my checklist is... lessee... some sort of insane evil ghost, with spell-casting capabilities. Preferably less amorphous than the ghost wizards from "Adventures of Dr. McNinja," and standing on the ground rather than hovering. Bizarre mutations and/or mutilations optional, whatever you feel can be adequately represented in the sprite medium. Contact me through strange7person (at) gmail if you'd like to discuss further.
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No. 106326 ID: a107fd

I'm planning to start running either Neomah Quest: Race to the West Pole, or another instance of Pdn[T]tO (with a new batch of entry-level characters), or possibly both, before the end of the month. When I do, please give me money.

https://patreon.com/user?u=4587981

Or even before then, I'm not picky.

If you haven't got money, or don't think I deserve any of it, just show up and suggest things. That's fine too. I'll probably survive somehow, I guess.
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No. 106335 ID: 383927

Sorry, no money to give, currently going massively in debt to get a degree in a low paying field in hopes of getting a job I don't hate, and the student budget is pretty damn tight right now. If you run another game like Please Don't Take These Organs, a name I still don't quite understand, I'd be interested in participating. I understand though if you're only looking for people who can contribute financially to your survival though, shit takes a lot of time to plan and run
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No. 106340 ID: a107fd

>>106335
>if you're only looking for people who can contribute financially
Absolutely not. Quests I run will still be free to play, patron bonuses are more like "cheat codes."

>name I still don't quite understand
It's a combined reference to the catchphrase of https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Noh and some old adventure game where valid verbs would be indicated by a single letter, with the (often counter-intuitive) abbreviations explained by listing the full word in brackets. On a deeper level, It refers to the idea that life is cheap and readily objectified in dog-eat-dog dungeon environments. Paired with the picture from Song of Saya, it's a cute girl (or a construct? Or an eldritch abomination in disguise? No way to be sure until far too late) pleading, in a stiff mechanical/autistic sort of way, that her chest not be kicked open and plundered.
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No. 106350 ID: af6e04

>another instance of Pdn[T]tO

Neato! I'll probably join in this time, if I may.

Also if you're still looking for artists I'm willing to help.
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No. 106368 ID: a107fd

>>106350
You may, and I am. Shoot me an e-mail to discuss the art stuff.
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No. 106432 ID: 3abd97

Oh boy, new Organs thread.

If it takes a little while for a reply to come through, I'm at least trying to be a little more creative with character creation than last time. I had fun with Marijke, but I feel like p much everyone else put more effort into coming up with mutations / flaws / special abilities.
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No. 106434 ID: b9aa79

>>106432
Honestly I loved marjike- it felt like she was driving the story and sort of keeping everything together. I definitely think the game would have been much less fun without her sort of piloting things, and I think her character really brought a lot to the table
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No. 106437 ID: af6e04

If my character is too gonzo I'll tone it down.
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No. 106440 ID: 3abd97

>>106434
I'm amused that a greedy merchant with a minor in mind control somehow ended up the "heart" of the party, but thank you.

>>106437
Nah, it's fine.
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No. 106442 ID: b9aa79

Hey this has 600 posts and a lot of stuff that isn't pertinent, and a title that isn't conducive to new readers finding it. I'm gonna make a new one, and pending the JamesLeng stamp of approval I think it'd be best to move our discussions over there.
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No. 106443 ID: d41523

I'm probably not permitted to make a new character and join the reboot, but I'm sure it'll still be interesting to watch everyone else's adventure. I updated the wiki page for the reboot.
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No. 106445 ID: b9aa79

I'm not the executive speaker, >>106443 but I don't think you're banned, I think JamesLeng was just feeling frustrated with the way you expressed yourself because it felt as though you were constantly unhappy; I'm sure for you it felt as though things were stacked against you and that the GM was out to get you. I think it's just a case of misunderstandings going unaired and being difficult to resolve via text on a screen because of the lack of personal interaction and difficulties conveying emotions.

Again though, outside interpretation of what happened, I can't speak for either of you. Thanks for updating the wiki- I'm gonna find a cover image and make a new discussion thread so after this whole discussion is resolved hopefully we can talk about the quest in a shiny new thread
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